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Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:13:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
stuff

Spades, I want to try and convert you.

I don't think implants apply to this situation for two reasons. One, you can lose them, and two, the acquisition rate of isk is enormously variable where the gain of skill points is basically fixed. There's gameplay involved in going out and mining or running missions. Waiting for learning skills to complete isn't gameplay, it's absence of gameplay.

The learning skills don't add any layer of strategy that isn't better served elsewhere. I'd rather see newbies choosing between Gallente or Caldari than choosing between waiting a shorter time now verses a longer time later.

Every other skill influences something directly. Any other skill raises your speed or the damage you do or how powerful your jammers are or changes the modules you can fit. Learning skills just influence time, and the choice is always the same choice: Wait a shorter time now, or a longer time later.

Why don't you have learning skills all at level 5? There's no disadvantage to having them all at level five, in fact they're probably the most useful skills in the game, so why don't you have them? I'm guessing the answer is because you didn't feel like sitting on your ass for a month waiting for skill bars to go up.

Most new players don't like that either. The difference is, they dislike it enough to leave. And that's a damn shame.

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:21:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 22:22:19
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Spades Slick
stuff

Spades, I want to try and convert you.

I don't think implants apply to this situation for two reasons. One, you can lose them, and two, the acquisition rate of isk is enormously variable where the gain of skill points is basically fixed. There's gameplay involved in going out and mining or running missions. Waiting for learning skills to complete isn't gameplay, it's absence of gameplay.

The learning skills don't add any layer of strategy that isn't better served elsewhere. I'd rather see newbies choosing between Gallente or Caldari than choosing between waiting a shorter time now verses a longer time later.

Every other skill influences something directly. Any other skill raises your speed or the damage you do or how powerful your jammers are or changes the modules you can fit. Learning skills just influence time, and the choice is always the same choice: Wait a shorter time now, or a longer time later.

Why don't you have learning skills all at level 5? There's no disadvantage to having them all at level five, in fact they're probably the most useful skills in the game, so why don't you have them? I'm guessing the answer is because you didn't feel like sitting on your ass for a month waiting for skill bars to go up.

Most new players don't like that either. The difference is, they dislike it enough to leave. And that's a damn shame.


Here's the way it went down:

I got my Cormorant, right? Leveled up gunnery a bit, so I could mount an effective offense, and started grinding standings with a corporation via L1s and low-quality L2s. And amazingly enough... I was able to put learning skills on my queue while I was out grinding those low-quality, low-level missions!

Wow, train learning skills AND accomplish something at the same time? Shocking! But no, you and your peers would have the newbie population believe that they MUST learn learning skills FIRST, above ALL ELSE. Funny... how are they supposed to afford their tier 2 learning skill books?

As for why I don't have my skills at 5/5, my current plan is only to Carriers, and that's where I plan to stop. Anything after that is supplementary, so I don't particularly care about having a bonus that would make Titan go faster (see? I'm not accepting the highest skills I can get as the baseline -- I am doing the best configuration.) Right now my Willpower skills are down, but that's because I'm not doing any skills that need it at the moment -- I'm going to put points into focus right before I start my Willpower skills, which since they're all grinding spaceship command skills that take weeks individually anyway, the one day or so I spend working on those learning skills is just one more day.

Yes, I used EVEMon, but the way it suggest things, you should do all learning skills first, then everything else. I played with it -- made strategic adjustments, got my neural remap perfect. Now I've got 4 L5 passive shield tank skills, so my Drake should get me through tanking L4s for fleets; that gives me something to do while I work on my weapons skills, so that I can SOLO L4s. Then, after I have gotten a competent BC/BS level defensive and offensive skillset made up, I'm ready to set my queue to start working towards Strat Cruisers, then Carriers (my order), along with any relevant skills in between.

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:27:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Mathias Black on 30/06/2010 22:27:41
Originally by: Spades Slick

No, see, general statements don't work. You can't say, "pretty much" or "mostly". The guides recommend it, sure, but they are suggestions. NOTHING IS FORCING YOU TO DO LEARNING SKILLS. Period. End of sentence. You can choose to skip them. For an impatient person who just wants to shoot his guns faster, they train up their gunnery skills and ignore the learning skills. They get to combat-readiness in the early stages faster than those who do train in learning, but their inability to consider outside their one-month box means that they lose momentum after several months. There is nothing unfair about this. They get to become active fighters (or miners, or salvagers, or traders, or industrialists) faster than the players who train learning skills... but then the people who did learning skills will train faster after years of playing.

Patience is rewarded in this realm, just like anywhere else in EVE, okay? Trading requires you plop your ass in station and hope someone buys your stock. Industry requires you to wait for stuff to build. Even getting better missions requires you to spend time doing missions for standing. EVE is a game of patience. Learning skills are just another facet of this overarching philosophy. Don't like waiting? EVE is not for you.


OK I see from your later posts that you're a new player so I think I see where your confusion is. You seem to think that you figured something out, or did something strategic, or somehow did something clever by training the learning skills, and that this has "specialized" you in some way or given you some kind of a different character than other people. It hasn't. Everyone trains the learning skills. EVERYONE. You're not clever or a special snowflake, you did exactly what EVERY other new character in Eve did. There might be one or two small exceptions: mostly, other brand new players who haven't yet figured out that the learning skills exist. If your sole argument for keeping the skills is that you want to maintain the "advantage" over these two-week old players, that's a terrible reason. The two weeks that you figured out the Learning skills exist before them hardly matters, especially in a game where some people have a five year lead on you and you have no way to catch up. I need to reiterate this: EVERYONE TRAINS THE LEARNING SKILLS. There is absolutely no reason to NOT train the skills unless you plan on quitting after one or two months, and even then, it would probably be wiser to train them just in case you come back. Everyone will train them once they realize they are there; even if you're "impatient", the base learning skills pay out after a month, the others pay out after a few more months... the reason everyone trains them is because we are "impatient" about learning the skills we will take after learning, taking learning means you learn everything faster overall, you are not being "patient" except for your first week or two as a noob.

As for your ridiculous comments about "weeding out" people who think that not learning any useful skills for your first month is a dumb idea just because they might like WoW, I personally would much rather we "weed out" the people who think it's a good idea, because the people who think that they're proving they're "patient" or "hard-working" or "clever" by sitting there staring at a progress bar in a game for two weeks are generally sad, pathetic, highly annoying people.

Hannibal Ord
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:27:00 - [124]
 

I have them at 5/4.

Anyone who even remotely suggests that they should stay in the game and we shouldn't just get our SP back and attributes enhanced, is full of ****.

They just don't want people to be on a level playing field and have a giant turnip up their arse because they trained them up ages ago.

They are mundane, boring, add nothing to the game and keep newer players from getting stuck into training better equipment and ships.

They should be removed because they add no fun to the game and I would quite like the SP back.

I would guess that anyone who argues for them to stay rather than remove them and get the SP back is around 2%-5% (if that) of eve's population.

Not only that, CCP would win huge favour with the generally negative but loyal player base by removing them.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:34:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
Wow, train learning skills AND accomplish something at the same time? Shocking! But no, you and your peers would have the newbie population believe that they MUST learn learning skills FIRST, above ALL ELSE. Funny... how are they supposed to afford their tier 2 learning skill books?


I understand what you're saying; What you've discovered is, indeed, how I've described learning skills: "Wait now, or wait later". You chose to wait initially, instead of later.

What you've managed to do is carefully position yourself so that learning skills won't inconvenience you too much. That's admirable, but it doesn't change the fact that you worked around an inconvenience. If learning skills were gone, you would have been able to move straight onto your advancement; You would have been able to go straight towards learning skills which would have some actual influence on your ship. You'd also have more money because you wouldn't have had to invest in those skill books.

The question I'm begging here is simply "what good do learning skills serve"? It's not enough for them to be "only a marginal inconvenience", they have to be a positive force. What was the positive force of these learning skills? Was the enjoyment derived from managing which learning skills to advance first worth the several days it took to advance them? Was it worth the isk spent on learning books?

FU22
The 8th Order
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:38:00 - [126]
 

Read the first couple posts but I would love to see them actually do this, less training more playing imo Cool

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:38:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Mathias Black
Edited by: Mathias Black on 30/06/2010 22:27:41OK I see from your later posts that you're a new player so I think I see where your confusion is. You seem to think that you figured something out, or did something strategic, or somehow did something clever by training the learning skills, and that this has "specialized" you in some way or given you some kind of a different character than other people. It hasn't. Everyone trains the learning skills. EVERYONE. You're not clever or a special snowflake, you did exactly what EVERY other new character in Eve did. There might be one or two small exceptions: mostly, other brand new players who haven't yet figured out that the learning skills exist.


Fallacy. Prove to me that everyone trains learning skills first. Don't suppose, don't quote rookie chat -- PROVE it. Of course, like you and all your compatriots, you can't prove anything -- you just keep making the problem worse, making it out to seem that learning skills should be baseline rather than additional. I didn't HAVE to go to Engineering V... but I did, because it was a wise investment. A guide exists somewhere telling people they should do so, too... but NOTHING forces you to go that high. Same with Tactical Shield Manipulation, Energy Systems Operation, and Shield Management, all skills I L5'd. Nothing MADE me do it, I CHOSE to do it because it was the best for my plan (see my link at the bottom, or just scroll up to where I already explained it).

Originally by: Mathias Black
If your sole argument for keeping the skills is that you want to maintain the "advantage" over these two-week old players, that's a terrible reason.


No, over my peers (same age). They want to be impulsive, fine, I get rewarded for my choice to think about my skilling rather than see "OOH, +5% DAMAGE WANT!"

Originally by: Mathias Black
The two weeks that you figured out the Learning skills exist before them hardly matters, especially in a game where some people have a five year lead on you and you have no way to catch up. I need to reiterate this: EVERYONE TRAINS THE LEARNING SKILLS. There is absolutely no reason to NOT train the skills unless you plan on quitting after one or two months, and even then, it would probably be wiser to train them just in case you come back. Everyone will train them once they realize they are there; even if you're "impatient", the base learning skills pay out after a month, the others pay out after a few more months... the reason everyone trains them is because we are "impatient" about learning the skills we will take after learning, taking learning means you learn everything faster overall, you are not being "patient" except for your first week or two as a noob.


I had a 21-day trial, quit and restarted on day 19 when I knew what to do. I had a lot of SP built up, but I chose to restart because it would be the best decision. Nothing stopping others from doing the same.

Originally by: Mathias Black
As for your ridiculous comments about "weeding out" people who think that not learning any useful skills for your first month is a dumb idea just because they might like WoW, I personally would much rather we "weed out" the people who think it's a good idea, because the people who think that they're proving they're "patient" or "hard-working" or "clever" by sitting there staring at a progress bar in a game for two weeks are generally sad, pathetic, highly annoying people.


I sat and stared at a progress bar, eh?

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:41:00 - [128]
 

And on a more philosophical note.... Patience might be a virtue, but only when applied wisely. A willingness to sit and stare at the paint peeling on a wall for five months straight just to prove you can might show that you're "patient", but it also shows that you are a complete loser who thinks that sitting on his ass for five months doing nothing makes him a good person. That's great, you sat on your ass and waited around for nothing for a really long time. Good for you. It doesn't make you a good person, and it certainly doesn't make you "better" than all the normal people in the world who actually went out and did things for those five months. It just means you're really good at doing mind-numbingly boring and pointless things for no apparent reason.

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:42:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Hannibal Ord
Anyone who even remotely suggests that they should stay in the game and we shouldn't just get our SP back and attributes enhanced, is full of ****.

So true. Laughing

Killclone
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:44:00 - [130]
 

Not again about the learning skills... There's been learning topic every few months for years. CCP would allready have taken them out if they thought they need to be taken out.

Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:44:00 - [131]
 

I bet this is one guy with 5 accounts and 14 forumalts who is making all those "remove learning skills" threads and posts lately. Why make Eve even more unEveish ? You young padavans think you are something better and don't want to go through the learning skill learning process, like everyone else did before. Next you will ask for removing attributes at all, so that there is no training speed difference ?

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:47:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 22:49:12
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Spades Slick
Wow, train learning skills AND accomplish something at the same time? Shocking! But no, you and your peers would have the newbie population believe that they MUST learn learning skills FIRST, above ALL ELSE. Funny... how are they supposed to afford their tier 2 learning skill books?


I understand what you're saying; What you've discovered is, indeed, how I've described learning skills: "Wait now, or wait later". You chose to wait initially, instead of later.

What you've managed to do is carefully position yourself so that learning skills won't inconvenience you too much. That's admirable, but it doesn't change the fact that you worked around an inconvenience. If learning skills were gone, you would have been able to move straight onto your advancement; You would have been able to go straight towards learning skills which would have some actual influence on your ship. You'd also have more money because you wouldn't have had to invest in those skill books.


But the problem with this line of thought is that it discards what I mentioned in the same post -- training Spaceship Command, Capital Ships, Battleship, and Carrier is all really useless so far as my activity in-game is concerned. I can do without having a Carrier, I won't need Cap Ships if I pimp out my Drake. I'm going to be forced to wait for several weeks while these skills train back-to-back. However, I have planned it out so that I have this forced downtime when I am at my strongest with BC-BS sized equipment, so that I won't be completely unable to do anything productive. You could argue the same about the learning skills, but it remains a way to play into the skilling system -- if EVEMon didn't exist, something tells me people wouldn't mind learning skills so much, because they would be forced to think nonlinearly. As it is, you put in what you want, and the system tells you to grind learning, then ships, then defense, then offense... and if you don't have the presence of mind to change that order based on where you want to be a month down the line when Battleship IV nears completion, then by all means, continue to blindly skill up without a second thought as to why you're doing what you're doing.

Originally by: Black Dranzer
The question I'm begging here is simply "what good do learning skills serve"? It's not enough for them to be "only a marginal inconvenience", they have to be a positive force. What was the positive force of these learning skills? Was the enjoyment derived from managing which learning skills to advance first worth the several days it took to advance them? Was it worth the isk spent on learning books?


It's the same reason why mining isn't as simple as tractoring an asteroid back to station, or increasing prod-levels on BPCs takes so damn long -- because EVE is built to be a slow-paced metagame intended to create an entire world with intense elements (combat) mixed in, but not central to, the experience.

Originally by: Mathias Black
And on a more philosophical note.... Patience might be a virtue, but only when applied wisely. A willingness to sit and stare at the paint peeling on a wall for five months straight just to prove you can might show that you're "patient", but it also shows that you are a complete loser who thinks that sitting on his ass for five months doing nothing makes him a good person. That's great, you sat on your ass and waited around for nothing for a really long time. Good for you. It doesn't make you a good person, and it certainly doesn't make you "better" than all the normal people in the world who actually went out and did things for those five months. It just means you're really good at doing mind-numbingly boring and pointless things for no apparent reason.


I thought I established that I wasn't staring at anything mindlessly? But okay, continue to ignore me.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:50:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
I bet this is one guy with 5 accounts and 14 forumalts who is making all those "remove learning skills" threads and posts lately. Why make Eve even more unEveish ? You young padavans think you are something better and don't want to go through the learning skill learning process, like everyone else did before. Next you will ask for removing attributes at all, so that there is no training speed difference ?


I am for the removal of learning skills.

I'm a five year old character with 4/4/4 learning/learning/implants.

I created my character before your character's race even existed.

Don't call me a Padawan, you little punk.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:56:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
Fallacy. Prove to me that everyone trains learning skills first. Don't suppose, don't quote rookie chat -- PROVE it. Of course, like you and all your compatriots, you can't prove anything -- you just keep making the problem worse, making it out to seem that learning skills should be baseline rather than additional.


I'm fairly sure that skill training as a whole was a topic brought up in a dev blog or QEN... and everyone (with a very small margin of error for totally clueless noobs that stopped playing) trains learning skills. Even super specialized alts train the appropriate learning skills (thanks to Evemon!).

-Liang

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 23:00:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 23:00:20
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Even super specialized alts train the appropriate learning skills


Yep. The APPROPRIATE learning skills.

Not "5/4/+4 implants". The skills relevant to what you want to do.

Unfortunately, rookie chat is filled with people who try to convince newbies that they MUST skill everything, and the rookies (unable to reach EVEMon for the first few days, when they could figure it out for themselves) pour their points into that 'perfect' learning skill set (you know the one, +1 intel +1 mem +learning +2 intel +2 mem +2 learning, or however it goes).

The problem is with the older player base over-dramatizing the importance of learning skills... or rather, having ALL of them trained, instead of what you plan to USE.

Taxesarebad
Posted - 2010.06.30 23:03:00 - [136]
 

why do people support learning skills.
if you get reimbursed sp wise, and all chars have maxed learning attributes its a good thing
now instead of making an alt, sitting there learning worthless skill for months i can start a new guy and get to work on what i wanna do,
make a miner? Manufactures, traders, wannabeepirates = happy!
make a indy= traders miners = happy
make a pirate = other pirates, pvp corps w/e = happy
make a Mission runner= pirates, pvp cors, ninja salvagers = happy..

the only people that complain are those who think it would change much, it means making a new char might be fun and not a pain.
i was about to make a pure pvp char but then i was like... at LEAST 2 weeks of learning skills... nah.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.30 23:08:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
Even more stuff


I need to bring up a point here: There are skills which pertain to cruiser piloting that go far beyond simple spaceship command skills. You may not have encountered them yet, but they're there, and they take a long time to train up. But that's an aside.

There's a misconception here; You seem to believe that analyzing learning skills and adjusting a "plan of attack" takes some kind of intricate skill or careful thought; It really doesn't. It really does come down to "wait now or wait later". There's some minor shuffling about with the way learning skills on the second tier influence each other, but beyond that.. not to discredit your own actions, but you have to realize this isn't something brilliant, you've just executed the basic principle in a slightly more refined way. My issue is with the principle.

But your key point, which was that Eve is a slow paced game..

Eve is a slow paced game as a consequence. There is indeed an extremely clever way which Eve deals with character advancement: Most games require a time investment indirectly, by having you grind. The time investment barrier exists for a very explicit reason (which I can't really go into without giving out a lecture on Virtual World design), but what CCP had the brains to do was see the time barrier for what it was, and rather than ask you to do certain things during that time, they just cut the whole thing off at the head and said "wait the time". But I'm getting off track.

No, Eve's primary strength is that it's an open world with few limitations. It's lawless, it's open, it's huge, the array of things you can do is enormous. None of these things would vanish if we were to remove learning skills. What would happen would be that people would get to this level a little faster; They'd be able to experience the world freely without having to worry about learning skills. It's all very well and good to say "oh they're not really necessary", but by the same token: You have them. I have them! Everybody in this thread has them. If you don't have them, people consider you gimped.

It is a choice, but it's a fake choice. It's an ultimatum.

Wait now, or wait later.

Do you get what I'm saying?

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.06.30 23:11:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick

Fallacy. Prove to me that everyone trains learning skills first. Don't suppose, don't quote rookie chat -- PROVE it. Of course, like you and all your compatriots, you can't prove anything -- you just keep making the problem worse, making it out to seem that learning skills should be baseline rather than additional. I didn't HAVE to go to Engineering V... but I did, because it was a wise investment. A guide exists somewhere telling people they should do so, too... but NOTHING forces you to go that high. Same with Tactical Shield Manipulation, Energy Systems Operation, and Shield Management, all skills I L5'd. Nothing MADE me do it, I CHOSE to do it because it was the best for my plan (see my link at the bottom, or just scroll up to where I already explained it).


Heh, how about you prove YOUR side and find me some people who have played for more than a couple of months who HAVEN'T trained the learning skills? The difference between the other skills you mentioned (Shield, Energy, etc) is that there are valid reasons for choosing to train something else over those or training them at different times depending on what sort of character you want to make. There is NO valid reason for not training the learning skills (unless the type of character you want to make is "a really ****ty one"). The only people who don't train them are the people who don't know that they exist or how they work. "Choosing" to not train them and thus be stuck at half the speed of every other person in the game is not a valid choice, it's just a trap for new players.

Quote:

No, over my peers (same age). They want to be impulsive, fine, I get rewarded for my choice to think about my skilling rather than see "OOH, +5% DAMAGE WANT!"

But you didn't actually "choose to think", you read a guide, or a forum post, or were browsing through the market and saw the skills there and thought "Wow, I would be an idiot to not train these." You did some very baseline cognitive thinking I guess, like "Not training this would be intensely stupid" and then "chose" to not do something intensely stupid, but that's hardly something to be proud of, and it's the same choice every other person in the game has already made, some of us multiple times over with new characters and alts.

Originally by: Mathias Black

I had a 21-day trial, quit and restarted on day 19 when I knew what to do. I had a lot of SP built up, but I chose to restart because it would be the best decision. Nothing stopping others from doing the same.

First, 19 days is not "a lot of SP". Five years is a lot of SP. Secondly, how the hell can you think that a game mechanic that made you delete your character and start over because you realized you messed up is a good thing? That's seriously the only thing Learning does: it makes new players go "****, I didn't realize there were these Learning skills that I have to train to be at the normal advancement rate. Crap. I guess I will either delete and start over or put all my other skills on hold to train these really boring ones for a month." THAT'S NOT A GOOD GAME MECHANIC. I can only guess that what you like about it is that it might "weed out" the people who realize they messed up and just quit, and that's a pretty terrible reason. I want MORE people playing this game, not less. And preferably more people that aren't masochists.


Induc
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.30 23:36:00 - [139]
 

Training learning skills or not is not a real choice, unless you're stupid.
Most newbies quickly discover that the choice is either spend a month training learning skills, or leave.

Isil Rahsen
Gallente
Ferrum Superum
Posted - 2010.06.30 23:41:00 - [140]
 

I would support the removal of all learning skills in exchange for the SP back and a +10 to all attributes. I can't say I would support the 900k SP allocation as it sounds like an instant alt machine to me.

To the ongoing discussion regarding the ramifications of removing the learning skills, back when I was new in late 05 I had no clue about the learning skills and effectively "gimped" my original char. After RMR and the introduction of the new bloodlines I felt compelled to re-roll as a new char in one of the new bloodlines, because of the gimped skillset I had. (Along with crappy attributes but that has since been fixed.)

As a game mechanic I find the learning skills asinine. It's nothing but a timesink for new chars . I certainly didn't enjoy training them and most of the people I've tried to get into EVE have found them to be frustrating and almost always detrimental to what they want to do.

The argument that it somehow will remove "depth" to character customization I think is dubious. All it will do is allow new characters to begin to get to the meat of the game a few weeks earlier. after that all the things that make impatient people leave EVE will still be there.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.01 00:26:00 - [141]
 

I am getting a strange feeling that DEVs are in this thread Cool

Originally by: Ranger 1
Right! Because people that are unwilling to plan ahead and work learning skills into their game plan deserve to get a boost to their attribute scores instantly and for free because...

...

... because why again exactly?

Question


Because having that system implemented in the first place was a bad decision to begin with.

Originally by: Spades Slick


That's funny because my toon's only 3 months old. No, wait, 2 and a half.

Yeah, I'm a 'bitter vet', all right.

I'm probably younger than any of you.

EDIT: Heh, heh, oops. That probably threw off your little rhetorical bull****. You wanna actually address my points, or do you just want to make personal attacks to try to undermine my position without actually talking about what I have to say?


Yet you speak of Command ships, specialized skill sets, and other things a two month old character would not typically have. Just saying.

But seriously your logic is pretty fail. And yes I will stick purely with the ad hominem since that is about the only response I feel your opinions warrant.


Slade


Felix Esperium
Lysergic Distortions Research and Development
Posted - 2010.07.01 00:32:00 - [142]
 

I think they should remove the learning skills and not buff attributes in compensation.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.07.01 01:22:00 - [143]
 

Thought experiment.

I put in the plan in evemon to get all the first learning skills to lvl 5 and the second tier to lvl 4.

It totals 2 million sp... if you only went to 4 -4 its only 1 million sp.

What if you just gave new players 5.6 million sp's double time instead of 1.6 (or more modestly to get to 4-4 without any distractions from other training, doubl time to 3.6)

If..sp were so critical everyone could still use the extra fast time to train them and be right where they are now, or.. they might just opt to get a whole lot of other skills quickly to get playing (I still think that being able to get the second tier books cheaply and be able to use them with only lvl 3 pre-reqa wouls be an easy helpful change for newbies)


Would you guys object to that?

If the point isn't to help newbies.. then what is it?

I suspect that there is an ulterior motive wher lots of people against the skills want to get that nice chunk of skillpointa back to realocate rather than to help newbies.

Or maybe its neurotic's who can't losen up but don't want those that can from reveling while they're studying---they're jealous of the guys that go out and have fun first and think of the results later ...they don't want to face that dilema ?

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.07.01 01:39:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Spades Slick
Even more stuff



It is a choice, but it's a fake choice. It's an ultimatum.

Wait now, or wait later.

Do you get what I'm saying?


I'm hearing you say the guys that go out and chase girls and get b's instead of a's while you were studying and end up investment bankers that make just as much if not as much more than you really should have been forced to study just as hard and not have fun chasing girls?


Ok, maybe not exactly but..do you get my gist? Theres a reward to a devil may care attitude.... fun now vs fun later.

Not too much different than.. chosing to pvp.. you'll lose isk even doing it even if you win more fights than you lose.. the looting rarely pays.....

You trade security for exitment and facing the idea of frequent loss isn't too much different than making the decision to make the more reckless choice in training.

Isil Rahsen
Gallente
Ferrum Superum
Posted - 2010.07.01 01:49:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Isil Rahsen on 01/07/2010 01:49:10
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
Thought experiment.

I put in the plan in evemon to get all the first learning skills to lvl 5 and the second tier to lvl 4.

It totals 2 million sp... if you only went to 4 -4 its only 1 million sp.

What if you just gave new players 5.6 million sp's double time instead of 1.6 (or more modestly to get to 4-4 without any distractions from other training, doubl time to 3.6)

If..sp were so critical everyone could still use the extra fast time to train them and be right where they are now, or.. they might just opt to get a whole lot of other skills quickly to get playing (I still think that being able to get the second tier books cheaply and be able to use them with only lvl 3 pre-reqa wouls be an easy helpful change for newbies)


Would you guys object to that?

If the point isn't to help newbies.. then what is it?

I suspect that there is an ulterior motive wher lots of people against the skills want to get that nice chunk of skillpointa back to realocate rather than to help newbies.

Or maybe its neurotic's who can't losen up but don't want those that can from reveling while they're studying---they're jealous of the guys that go out and have fun first and think of the results later ...they don't want to face that dilema ?
Why keep them at all? Even with training time bonus to x.x million SP it's still a timesink that at best is slightly less annoying than before. The problem is that they exist at all, and shortening the time to train them only covers up the problem.

As to people wanting the SP back as an ulterior motive, even at 5/5 it's not a whole lot of SP for an established char. I personally would only be getting back 2.something million. Not enough to make a big difference in my total skillset.

Helio Amor
Posted - 2010.07.01 02:19:00 - [146]
 

I'd like to hear from players who actually havent played eve before and only been in game a week or two. Since any change would primarily affect them first and foremost. Each and everyone of you who have trained learning skills may have your say in the matter but if you already have them trained then your no longer a noob and it doesn't affect you. I should also point out the devs thought adding stargates to the game were a bad idea too but necessary but thats a whole different topic. Personally I like the idea of removing the skills. I was once a noob, and even thought the skill sets were in when I joined up. I still had to train learning skills. The old character setup was designed to give you a set of skills you need to do what you want to do. Now I don't want to hear....ohh im a noob I dont know what is what in the game I need personal skills to train. Excuse my french but what a ****ing load of crap. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what industrialist career means or what military career means. Hell there were plenty of guides on google to lookup if the bastards can google **** they can google which skill sets they needed to select. The descriptions were there from the start. Same as wow....you don't need a ****ing month to figure out what a hunter does. Now that rant is out it doesn't matter those skill sets are history.

EVERY noob that has come into our corp has asked....what should I train first. We always replay learning skills so you can train them faster long term since you are expected to play eve for years. Of course 90% of the time they whine about waiting a month to be able to train skills they need to do what they want to do. If you aren't going to remove LS then at least let them train all of them to lvl 3 instantly so they at least have a good start......or better yet just give them a mil SP to allocate where they want so they can choose to start learning skills or to instantly train skills for what they want to do and THEN focus on learning skills. I may agree or not on removing LS but at the very least I DO agree the system is ****ed up and needs fixed one way or the other. Making noobs wait to train learning skills is both heartless and cold. I never had to experiance this as I said I had skill sets to start playing around with while my learning skills were being done.....noobs don't have this. They have hardly any skills to start with. If you compared the odl setup with now. It is sort of like making the two parties run a mile, the old setup starts you off a quarter a mile into the race. If you are both running at the same speed the new setup always loses no matter what.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.07.01 02:21:00 - [147]
 

@deziel.. you missed the second point about learning skills being a source of mental anguish for neurotics which I think is sort of a theme of the game.

SP have nothing to do with any metric of the game.

pvp is more about player skill than charcter skill

manufacturing is about systems

trade is about making isk

sp are about who started earlier mostly.. if you had found the game a month earlier you'd have made up for most of maxed learning skills.. would you be ahead?

Help the noobs out to make it easy to get 70% of the benefit cheaply and leave the hand wringing in the game for the rest..

its kinda funny to see people getting upset about it.. that


Jaina Kort
Posted - 2010.07.01 02:33:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: Jaina Kort on 01/07/2010 02:36:45
I got into Eve in the beginning of 2006. A few weeks after starting, I learned about the learning skills and was not thrilled with them, but, it was exciting to look at how much faster I would be able to learn things. So, there was a level of satisfaction that came along with learning the skills themselves.

I loved the game a lot and realized that I would be playing for many years, so I took the timesink and learned them all to level 5. The advanced learning skills from 4 to 5 were annoying really, but a sense of accomplishment was had from getting everything to level 5. So, I do understand people wanting to keep them as it does add a sort of "planning" aspect into the game.

But, I would not personally mind them being removed. I have a bit over 5.3m skill points and would love to reallocate them to get some of my advanced skills up quicker.

For me, I dont really care if I learn faster than other players, so removing them does not bother me in the least. I care more about my characters advancement than I care about what others are doing in their development. So, I say reallocate those SP and I will put them to good use. :D

The game must grow and the more people in eve, the better as more Drama can happen. I realize the game must grow and sometimes losing or changing old systems is needed. Skillpoints in my opinion will make many happy and many upset, but it is one of those nerfs I think would not drive people from the game, but rather a chance to bring more into it.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.01 04:31:00 - [149]
 

everyone who tells other people how they should or should not play EvE is a facist troll piece of ****, and thats from the heart.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.07.01 04:40:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 23:00:20
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Even super specialized alts train the appropriate learning skills


Yep. The APPROPRIATE learning skills.

Not "5/4/+4 implants". The skills relevant to what you want to do.



Right, which (again) totally supports my point of view that everyone trains learning skills - even the people that know they won't be training more than a month. Learning skills are not optional.

Quote:
Unfortunately, rookie chat is filled with people who try to convince newbies that they MUST skill everything


They definitely need 4/4 or maybe 5/4 if they plan to play the game very long at all. I'd usually recommend not training charisma at first though. :)

Quote:
The problem is with the older player base over-dramatizing the importance of learning skills... or rather, having ALL of them trained, instead of what you plan to USE.


Its impossible to over dramatize the importance of learning skills. Take it from the dumbass stupid mother ****er that had 3/2s for ages.

-Liang


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