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JitaBum
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.06.30 20:02:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:58:58
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Mathias Black
Agree with the OP, it's not a matter of IF they'll do it, but WHEN. They've already said they think the learning skills were a mistake.

Also, 1 billion ISK says 75% of the people who are adamantly defending learning skills will immediately switch sides and agree that they suck as soon as CCP announces their removal.


So when can I collect?

Because I believe strongly that, with the current system, patience and planning for the long term is rewarded. Without learning skills, it wouldn't be as amazing to have, say, a specialized Command guy for your fleet -- you can just go to corp chat, "Hey, can someone grab their Command Ship?", 20 people respond. You cut out the strategy of the game in favor of making it another generic skillfest like any of numerous other MMOs.


Uh... I think you might be confused... we're not talking about removing the whole skill training system, of course that will stay. We're just talking about the "Learning" skills specifically, you know, Learning, Iron Will, Analytical Mind, etc.


You DO realize that everything after Battleship pretty much has its own unique line of training? By doing Learning Skills, you can do the 100+ days to a command ship faster... and a person who commits to it DESERVES it at the end of the run.

Without player-controlled attribute boosting, or if everyone trains everything at the same speed as everyone else (barring implants or remaps, not sure what hogwash you want with those elements), doing any of those more intense, specialized skills becomes something ANYONE can do... and so no one will be as committed to the path they choose. That commitment is part of the 'strategy of EVE' I am discussing -- the idea that your character should be good at few things, but very good at those things; or a mediocre 'jack of all trades'. People who want to be in the higher-level roles -- commanders, black ops, marauders, cap-drivers, etc. -- will say, "okay, I'll train learning skills so that when I enter the second year of my skill plan, I've saved a month on training overall!"

But anyone CAN do it already - your argument is terrible

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.06.30 20:04:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick

You DO realize that everything after Battleship pretty much has its own unique line of training? By doing Learning Skills, you can do the 100+ days to a command ship faster... and a person who commits to it DESERVES it at the end of the run.

Without player-controlled attribute boosting, or if everyone trains everything at the same speed as everyone else (barring implants or remaps, not sure what hogwash you want with those elements), doing any of those more intense, specialized skills becomes something ANYONE can do... and so no one will be as committed to the path they choose.


I'm still not sure what you're talking about... pretty much EVERYONE who plays Eve trains ALL the learning skills to 4/4 or 5/4 or somewhere close, mostly in their first month or so as a noob. It's in every newbie guide, on the official wiki, repeated over and over in rookie help, suggested by every older player, etc. Everyone except brand new players already have ALL the Learning skills. You're not special by having them. Everybody already trains command ships and everything else at the fast speed. All that removing the Learning skills would do is cut out the first month you have to spend as a noob training the learning skills. Everything else remains exactly the same.

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 20:08:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 20:14:38
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Spades Slick
So when can I collect?

Because I believe strongly that, with the current system, patience and planning for the long term is rewarded. Without learning skills, it wouldn't be as amazing to have, say, a specialized Command guy for your fleet -- you can just go to corp chat, "Hey, can someone grab their Command Ship?", 20 people respond. You cut out the strategy of the game in favor of making it another generic skillfest like any of numerous other MMOs.


Uh... I think you might be confused... we're not talking about removing the whole skill training system, of course that will stay. We're just talking about the "Learning" skills specifically, you know, Learning, Iron Will, Analytical Mind, etc.


You DO realize that everything after Battleship pretty much has its own unique line of training? By doing Learning Skills, you can do the 100+ days to a command ship faster... and a person who commits to it DESERVES it at the end of the run.

Without player-controlled attribute boosting, or if everyone trains everything at the same speed as everyone else (barring implants or remaps, not sure what hogwash you want with those elements), doing any of those more intense, specialized skills becomes something ANYONE can do... and so no one will be as committed to the path they choose.

There are implants ingame, no?


Quote:
(barring implants or remaps, not sure what hogwash you want with those elements)


And surely, because you have to commit to grinding to get the ISK to be able to afford them and you have to train Cybernetics to use them, they're evil like Learning Skills anyways? Because anything that remotely resembles tedium (even if it has a purpose) seems to be the antichrist in you and your fellow anti-learning-skills-ists' minds.

Quote:
I'm still not sure what you're talking about... pretty much EVERYONE who plays Eve trains ALL the learning skills to 4/4 or 5/4 or somewhere close, mostly in their first month or so as a noob. It's in every newbie guide, on the official wiki, repeated over and over in rookie help, suggested by every older player, etc. Everyone except brand new players already have ALL the Learning skills. You're not special by having them. Everybody already trains command ships and everything else at the fast speed. All that removing the Learning skills would do is cut out the first month you have to spend as a noob training the learning skills. Everything else remains exactly the same.


No, see, general statements don't work. You can't say, "pretty much" or "mostly". The guides recommend it, sure, but they are suggestions. NOTHING IS FORCING YOU TO DO LEARNING SKILLS. Period. End of sentence. You can choose to skip them. For an impatient person who just wants to shoot his guns faster, they train up their gunnery skills and ignore the learning skills. They get to combat-readiness in the early stages faster than those who do train in learning, but their inability to consider outside their one-month box means that they lose momentum after several months. There is nothing unfair about this. They get to become active fighters (or miners, or salvagers, or traders, or industrialists) faster than the players who train learning skills... but then the people who did learning skills will train faster after years of playing.

Patience is rewarded in this realm, just like anywhere else in EVE, okay? Trading requires you plop your ass in station and hope someone buys your stock. Industry requires you to wait for stuff to build. Even getting better missions requires you to spend time doing missions for standing. EVE is a game of patience. Learning skills are just another facet of this overarching philosophy. Don't like waiting? EVE is not for you.

Lefty Twotimes
Posted - 2010.06.30 20:09:00 - [94]
 

Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 30/06/2010 20:21:30
Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 30/06/2010 20:15:59
Learning skills are not required but they are necessary for anyone primary character. Any new player who is making their main quickly figures out that training the learning skills is the best thing they can do to affect their characters long term development. At this point they have two options. They can spend time advancing their characters learning skills or they can gimp themselves in the long run.

While they are not a requirement they are a crap option. Anyone who wants to stick with the game has to have them to advance at a decent rate. Sure your low skill alts don't need them. Your specialize characters don't need them or at least all of them. Any new player working on his only account feels (and properly) that they do need them. They need 20+ million isk and over a month worth of sub time to get them. Neither of which a new player is as willing and able to dedicate to the game as a already invested vet. So since learning skills don't affect vets as much as noobs you argue that they should stay in game? CCP knows that the learning skills are a mistake and a barrier to new players. I find it amusing to watch people attempt to defend them.

Implants are not learning skills. They offer a risk vs reward for having them in your head vs getting podded and training cybernetics gives you access to implants that just don't effect your learning speed. The restrictive aspect of implants is far more Isk related then time related. No one is saying that the fix for learning skills is that they need to remove the price of the books. Even if they gave every one cybernetics 5 people would still not all run around with +5 implants. I have never heard CCP say that they were a mistake.

Ralnik
Alpha Squad
Posted - 2010.06.30 20:14:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Lefty Twotimes
Learning skills are not required but they are necessary for anyone primary character. Any new player who is making their main quickly figures out that training the learning skills is the best thing they can do to affect their characters long term development. At this point they have two options. They can spend time advancing their characters learning skills or they can gimp themselves in the long run.

While they are not a requirement they are a crap option. Anyone who wants to stick with the game has to have them to advance at a decent rate. Sure your low skill alts don't need them. Your specialize characters don't need them or at least all of them. Any new player working on his only account feels (and properly) that they do need them. They need 20+ million isk and over a month worth of sub time to get them. Neither of which a new player is as willing and able to dedicate to the game as a already invested vet. So since learning skills don't affect vets as much as noobs you argue that they should stay in game? CCP knows that the learning skills are a mistake and a barrier to new players. I find it amusing to watch people attempt to defend them.


It's called bitter vet syndrome. They are mad because new players will have something a bit easier than they got it. Despite the fact that it affects them in no way and only makes the game more enjoyable for more people.

Instead they are just like grumpy old farts that are mad at the new younger people living in their neighborhood.

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 20:16:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 20:25:02
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 20:16:55
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 20:16:40
Originally by: Ralnik
Originally by: Lefty Twotimes
Learning skills are not required but they are necessary for anyone primary character. Any new player who is making their main quickly figures out that training the learning skills is the best thing they can do to affect their characters long term development. At this point they have two options. They can spend time advancing their characters learning skills or they can gimp themselves in the long run.

While they are not a requirement they are a crap option. Anyone who wants to stick with the game has to have them to advance at a decent rate. Sure your low skill alts don't need them. Your specialize characters don't need them or at least all of them. Any new player working on his only account feels (and properly) that they do need them. They need 20+ million isk and over a month worth of sub time to get them. Neither of which a new player is as willing and able to dedicate to the game as a already invested vet. So since learning skills don't affect vets as much as noobs you argue that they should stay in game? CCP knows that the learning skills are a mistake and a barrier to new players. I find it amusing to watch people attempt to defend them.


It's called bitter vet syndrome. They are mad because new players will have something a bit easier than they got it. Despite the fact that it affects them in no way and only makes the game more enjoyable for more people.

Instead they are just like grumpy old farts that are mad at the new younger people living in their neighborhood.


That's funny because my toon's only 3 months old. No, wait, 2 and a half.

Yeah, I'm a 'bitter vet', all right.

I'm probably younger than any of you.

EDIT: Heh, heh, oops. That probably threw off your little rhetorical bull****. You wanna actually address my points, or do you just want to make personal attacks to try to undermine my position without actually talking about what I have to say?

Sith LordX
Posted - 2010.06.30 20:47:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Deizel
Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game.

This will result in:

1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills)
2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect)
3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)

Further changes:

4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)


Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.


Your word means nothing.

Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.06.30 20:49:00 - [98]
 

Must say I'm lol-ing at people actually defending learning skills.

I do hope they move forward with removing them from the game. We would get a sizable amount of SP back and new players can focus on the different aspects of the game without having to decide in the first 2 months whether they will play this game for the next 2 years to benefit from advanced learning skills.

Redpoppy
Posted - 2010.06.30 20:52:00 - [99]
 

"We're doing it for the newbie !!" lmao

Ralnik
Alpha Squad
Posted - 2010.06.30 20:54:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 20:56:23

Originally by: Spades Slick

EDIT: Heh, heh, oops. That probably threw off your little rhetorical bull****. You wanna actually address my points, or do you just want to make personal attacks to try to undermine my position without actually talking about what I have to say?


WTF are you crying about. I didn't call you any names or even reply to you. I merely committed on the typical "bitter vet" stance, that always comes out of these topics.

It's always the same, wha wha wha, "I had to do it so you should too" mentality. Well I did it too, I trained all my learning skills and I would love to see them go away even if I didn't get jack **** in return.

I don't care if your 3 months old and 5 years into the game..The learning skills are bad for the game and it mainly only hurts "new" players.. Not "new" alts of older players.

New players don't have the option to sit their new alt in a station for 2 months ship spinning doing learning skills.

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 20:57:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 20:59:36
Originally by: Ralnik
Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 20:55:34
Originally by: Spades Slick

EDIT: Heh, heh, oops. That probably threw off your little rhetorical bull****. You wanna actually address my points, or do you just want to make personal attacks to try to undermine my position without actually talking about what I have to say?


WTF are you crying about. I didn't call you any names or even reply to you. I merely committed on the typical "bitter vet" stance, that always comes out of these topics.

It's always the same, wha wha wha, "I had to do it so you should too" mentality. Well I did it too, I training all my learning skills and I would love to see them go away even if I didn't get jack **** in return.

I don't care if your 3 months old and 5 years into the game..The learning skills are bad for the game and it mainly only hurts "new" players.. Not "new" alts of older players.

New players don't have the option to sit their new alt in a station for 2 months ship spinning doing learning skills.


No. This is my main, a two-month old, 3.5mil SP toon. I am a 'new player'. And I support learning skills, for the reasons I have given several times now. You don't want to be patient or plan strategically? That's fine. That's one person who, when I'm rolling in a fully L5'd T3 Cruiser (or maybe they'll have something even better by then) a year from now, will be bawwing on this forum because the mean old player who skilltanked was able to smash his impatient, shallow-thinking ass into the ground.

I know, it's hard for you to process this information.

JitaBum
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.06.30 20:59:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Ralnik
Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 20:55:34
Originally by: Spades Slick

EDIT: Heh, heh, oops. That probably threw off your little rhetorical bull****. You wanna actually address my points, or do you just want to make personal attacks to try to undermine my position without actually talking about what I have to say?


WTF are you crying about. I didn't call you any names or even reply to you. I merely committed on the typical "bitter vet" stance, that always comes out of these topics.

It's always the same, wha wha wha, "I had to do it so you should too" mentality. Well I did it too, I training all my learning skills and I would love to see them go away even if I didn't get jack **** in return.

I don't care if your 3 months old and 5 years into the game..The learning skills are bad for the game and it mainly only hurts "new" players.. Not "new" alts of older players.

New players don't have the option to sit their new alt in a station for 2 months ship spinning doing learning skills.


No. This is my main, a two-month old, 3.5mil SP toon. I am a 'new player'. And I support learning skills.

I know, it's hard for you to process this information.

Have you done learning skills?

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:06:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: JitaBum
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Ralnik
Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 20:55:34
Originally by: Spades Slick

EDIT: Heh, heh, oops. That probably threw off your little rhetorical bull****. You wanna actually address my points, or do you just want to make personal attacks to try to undermine my position without actually talking about what I have to say?


WTF are you crying about. I didn't call you any names or even reply to you. I merely committed on the typical "bitter vet" stance, that always comes out of these topics.

It's always the same, wha wha wha, "I had to do it so you should too" mentality. Well I did it too, I training all my learning skills and I would love to see them go away even if I didn't get jack **** in return.

I don't care if your 3 months old and 5 years into the game..The learning skills are bad for the game and it mainly only hurts "new" players.. Not "new" alts of older players.

New players don't have the option to sit their new alt in a station for 2 months ship spinning doing learning skills.


No. This is my main, a two-month old, 3.5mil SP toon. I am a 'new player'. And I support learning skills.

I know, it's hard for you to process this information.

Have you done learning skills?


Does this answer your question?

Rebal 88
Minmatar
Black Ice Protectorate
The Imperial Senate
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:09:00 - [104]
 

I would like this.

Mrs Kleo
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:13:00 - [105]
 

Edited by: Mrs Kleo on 30/06/2010 21:18:00
Spades slick hasn't actually presented any argument other than pointing out that learning skills exist and therefor should continue to do so.

The rest of his posts are character attacks and some straw man rant about implants.

Thrasymachus TheSophist
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:14:00 - [106]
 

+1 support for OP's plan.

Learning skills were a mistake and should be removed.

Proposal is a fair and workable solution.

Make it happen CCP.

JitaBum
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:14:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick

Does this answer your question?

So in reality, you'd only be annoyed because you've done some and if learning skills were removed, you'd no longer have a one-up on some other new players. Pathetic.

I've been playing for years and having put multiple characters through 5/4 learnings skills, I would be happy if they removed them completely. It certainly wouldn't benefit me, but it would benefit new players who already have enough 'necessary' skills to train to approach usefullness i.e. electronics, engineering

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:24:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 21:26:01
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 21:25:09
Originally by: JitaBum
Originally by: Spades Slick

Does this answer your question?

So in reality, you'd only be annoyed because you've done some and if learning skills were removed, you'd no longer have a one-up on some other new players. Pathetic.

I've been playing for years and having put multiple characters through 5/4 learnings skills, I would be happy if they removed them completely. It certainly wouldn't benefit me, but it would benefit new players who already have enough 'necessary' skills to train to approach usefullness i.e. electronics, engineering


... what?

Goddamn, will you people address my points? Or are you just going to try to make these personal jabs that accomplish nothing but make you look like a petty kid?

Yes, I'd have a one-up on other people, just like people who are willing to do .01 ISK price wars in Jita can make it rich, or pour points into astrosurveying and salvaging to go ninja. And? I stand to lose nothing from the learning skills being canceled! -- I get my SP back, put them wherever I want, and I should be happy, right?!?

Wrong.

I don't think like any of you impatient, skill***** people who are so demanding and gimme-what-I-want-now! -- I WANT this to be a game where you have to think, plan, look before you leap so to speak. I LIKE having all the impatient kids who came here from WoW being rooted out during their trials because they don't like the thought of (gasp!) being PATIENT. It sets EVE apart... and removing learning skills is just another step towards making EVE into another mass-produced MMO lightshow with no substance whatsoever, but to show off how big your e-peen is.

Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:36:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick

... what?

Goddamn, will you people address my points? Or are you just going to try to make these personal jabs that accomplish nothing but make you look like a petty kid?


Originally by: "Mrs Kleo"
Spades slick hasn't actually presented any argument other than pointing out that learning skills exist and therefor should continue to do so.

The rest of his posts are character attacks and some straw man rant about implants.


The skill tree will still work to weed out the impatients as you wish it to. They still have to wait years to be in capitals or months to be in battleships. Removing learning skills takes out an aspect of training where you aren't actually training for any ship or role, you're training so you don't have to train as long later. They are an unnecessary barrier to EVE that could easily be removed and the gameplay wouldn't change while giving benefits to players new and old. They are widely regarded as a nuissance and aren't necessary to keep since the training plans still take long periods of time out for characters to specialize into their roles.

Taxesarebad
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:41:00 - [110]
 

steps 1-3 are great, but allocat 900k sp instantly is stupid, that means instantly i can make a char that is able to fly frigs and be pvp ready go kill things in lowsec, or suicide gank or w/e in a dessie, delete char and repeat
keep the same 1.6mil double training speed, but remove learning skills so the bonus speed isnt wasted on them

RedLion
Caldari
State Constructions
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:41:00 - [111]
 

i like my learning skills. I invested so much in them!

Redpoppy
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:44:00 - [112]
 

the CSM and their alts must be behind this insistent anti-learning uprising on the forum.


maybe one day they'll realize they're doing more harm than good by rocketing up the uncertainty in the "precious newbies" current skill plans.


suddenly newbies > game philosophy > God

Ralnik
Alpha Squad
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:45:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 21:49:43

Originally by: Spades Slick

No. This is my main, a two-month old, 3.5mil SP toon. I am a 'new player'. And I support learning skills, for the reasons I have given several times now. You don't want to be patient or plan strategically? That's fine. That's one person who, when I'm rolling in a fully L5'd T3 Cruiser (or maybe they'll have something even better by then) a year from now, will be bawwing on this forum because the mean old player who skilltanked was able to smash his impatient, shallow-thinking ass into the ground.

I know, it's hard for you to process this information.


Ok for "aruments" sake I'll bite.

What exactly is having my current 1,9 mil SP in learning going to do for me when I meet you in your "level V" strat cruiser?

Learning skills have nothing to do with strategy or ship fits. They only take time out of your skill plan by reducing training time yet require time to train.

oh and don't lecture me about being impatient.. You are looking at a toon that just turned 1 year old and sat in the station training learning skills his first month and a half.

Not to mention the fact that he has almost 2 mil SP's in Electronics, 4 mil in Engineering, 3,5 mil in mechanic, 2,6 mil in navigation.

In other words Maxed tank skills, Maxed cap/fitting skills and almost maxed sub cap nav skills.

Not to mention cybernetics V, Drone interfacing V and the only T2 ships he can fly are stealth bombers and Assault Frigs. Other than that he flys T1 BC's, Cruisers and frigs.

He is damn sure not half assed on his support skills if that's what you are trying to imply and I wouldn't even think of flying a strat cruiser in PVP in my first year.

Yet where in all this does making you train learning skills vs giving them to you matter other than the 2 months it takes to train them?

Please explain how spending a extra 2 months to train learning skills helps your strategy, vs CCP getting rid of them altogether.

Everyone benefits from this yet people still want to whine.. Rolling Eyes

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:46:00 - [114]
 

Ok, I said something close above but I can make it even more simple...middle ground.

Start everyone with lvl 4 first tier skills and lvl 3 second tier skills.

That is 9 + days of training for a new charcter and the 22 million in books is really a fotune for new players but a pitance for alts or players with friends...completely unbalanced. 9 days of training doesn't mean a lot a year into the game but it does mean a lot to someone interested in starting.

With 70% of the benefit and for all practical purposes mor like 75% or 80% of what all but the most die hard players commited to multi year plans would op for, there would be very little harm done.

Redpoppy
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:49:00 - [115]
 

the only "harm done" in the first place was in your heads.

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:51:00 - [116]
 

The sooner learning skills will be gone, the better.


Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:53:00 - [117]
 

Edited by: Black Dranzer on 30/06/2010 21:56:44
Took a shower, gathered my thoughts.

I keep going over this in my head, and I can't wrap my head around why people would argue for learning skills; Be their motives selfish or selfless, there is no good reason for hanging onto them.

If you're selfish, the benefits are obvious: Maxed training time and a pile of free skill points. Newbies that come in late are going to train faster, but they'll still never surpass you, and you'll probably never surpass the people who came in before you anyway, so in that sense it's pretty much null.

If you're selfless, the benefits are even more obvious; Learning skills drive away newbie players. This is clearly observable. Anybody who has learning skills explained to them can deduce that learning skills are more of an ultimatum than a choice. You can decline to learn them, but it'll only harm you in the long run. Most new players find this out, and when they do, they leave. We don't gain anything out of this. Our community doesn't remain more "pure" or "hardcore". No new player should have to go through this. I shouldn't have had to go through this. You shouldn't have had to go through this. The guy signing up tomorrow shouldn't have to, either. Why make him?

There is, of course, a cost. We would lose some depth. But this depth only pertains to advancement speed; Pilot abilities would still maintain the same spectrum of depth, and advancement speed would still be customizable to an extent via implants and neural remaps.

So ask yourself: Are learning skills really worth the damage they do?

Edit:

Also, here's a fun fact for those claiming that increasing the training time creates an "instant gratification universe":

I have level 4 learning skills across the board (and Learning 5) as well as level 4 implants.

It will take me over a month to get Advanced Weapon Upgrades from level 4 to level 5.

A month.

A month, for a 2% reduction in powergrid needs.

This month can't be sped up or bypassed.

There are games where you can max out characters in half that time. Are we really, honestly, seriously worried about Eve becoming an instant gratification game?

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:53:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Saehta
Originally by: Spades Slick

... what?

Goddamn, will you people address my points? Or are you just going to try to make these personal jabs that accomplish nothing but make you look like a petty kid?


Originally by: "Mrs Kleo"
Spades slick hasn't actually presented any argument other than pointing out that learning skills exist and therefor should continue to do so.

The rest of his posts are character attacks and some straw man rant about implants.


The skill tree will still work to weed out the impatients as you wish it to. They still have to wait years to be in capitals or months to be in battleships. Removing learning skills takes out an aspect of training where you aren't actually training for any ship or role, you're training so you don't have to train as long later. They are an unnecessary barrier to EVE that could easily be removed and the gameplay wouldn't change while giving benefits to players new and old. They are widely regarded as a nuissance and aren't necessary to keep since the training plans still take long periods of time out for characters to specialize into their roles.


No strawmans from me. Please quote them where you see them, and I'll gladly refer you to the posts where everyone calls me a 'grizzled vet who's angry at the idea of losing his advantage' (except I'm not) or says I'm 'pathetic because I have learning skills and I want to hold my advantage over other people' (nothing stopping other people from learning them, nothing stopping them from skipping them. If Learning Skills were canceled, since I am so young a character, I really stand to lose nothing from the change... and yet still I debate it. Why? Read my posts to figure it out for yourself). The implants are a null point -- since you all apparently find learning skills to be so useless because of their tedium, surely you find implants the same because you have to grind missions to get enough ISK to afford them? If you DON'T find mission-grinding for ISK tedious, that makes your central pillar of "LEARNING SKILLS TAKE TOO LONG UGH" a fallacy, as you see no qualms in wasting time to buy an attribute enhancer that you can lose quite easily by being podded.

The skill tree weeds out impatient people, yes, but the learning set also adds an element of strategy to it. Whine and moan all you want, thinking about whether you want to commit to training your Perception skills up to 5 because you think you'll be around for a few years and you're going to be combat-heavy is a time investment made by the patient, JUST LIKE playing the market, or mining, or going heavily industrial. It adds an extra element to the game where you are rewarded for proper planning -- the fact that having skills 5/4 or 4/4 across the board and having +3 implants minimum is considered status quo makes a problem where there is none -- just like nothing forces you to learn particular skills to fit Tech 2 modules or rigs, nothing forces you to train up your learning skills, despite everyone claiming otherwise. Not having learning skills doesn't restrict the game for you in any way, nor does it hamper you. HAVING learning skills doesn't allow for any more opportunities in skilling than other players -- you just are getting a big return for the investment you made in that first crucial month. It's like playing the stock market -- and everyone in this thread seems to ignore the fact that anything over +0 to all attributes is an advantageous position, not that anything below +5 is severe disadvantage.

So what if all the guides say to do learning first? You can ignore them. Be in a Battleship within your first month, yeah, master T1 and get some T2 stuff on there... but because you chose to play impulsively, you have to reap the consequences of your actions.

VicturusTeSaluto
Gallente
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:02:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Deizel

Further changes:

4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)



That would be a horrible change. Would allow for instant cyno alts, possibly even instant suicide gankers etc.

ForeU CEO
Caldari
Forethought Unchained
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:06:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: ForeU CEO on 30/06/2010 22:07:24
Quote:
and everyone in this thread seems to ignore the fact that anything over +0 to all attributes is an advantageous position, not that anything below +5 is severe disadvantage.


I'm not following your stock market example. You're saying its kindof like how finishing high school puts you at an advantage in society, not finishing high school doesn't put you at a disadvantage?

It's been stated but 4/4 learning +3s are the norm, not having them is a disadvantage and is why everyone including the rookie help channel tells people to train them.


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