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blankseplocked Learning skills: the end is near, at last!
 
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Sully Tude
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:34:00 - [61]
 

While I can symphasize with both sides here, I have to agree more with the "remove them" crowd.

A short time ago, back when I was a wee nooblet, one day of training seemed like FOREVER. I purposely bought up new skill books and kept training skills that only took at most 24 hours just so I'd have new toys to play with each day when I got home from work (I also did nothing but lose isk my first month, but I digress...)

It wasn't until well after I lost that 100% training speed bonus that I sat down and actually planned out what ships I wanted and trained the learning skills up. If I had started with them right from the start, as must be done to get the most optimal training plan, I probably wouldn't have stuck with the game. I'm probably several weeks behind where I would be had I done it "the right way."

Nowadays I start a skill training on my alts only to turn around and say "holy ****, Mining Barge 5 is done already?"

If new players are able to have fun without feeling like they're suffering because of it, they're more likely to stick with the game, in my opinion.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:34:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 30/06/2010 18:36:48
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Ranger 1
Right! Because people that are unwilling to plan ahead and work learning skills into their game plan deserve to get a boost to their attribute scores instantly and for free because...

...

... because why again exactly?

Question


WHAT PLAN?

Here is the best plan for learning skills: Get them before you do anything else. The order in which you get the learning skills can probably be maximized.

There is no gaming in this. There is no challenge in this. There is no careful thought or planning in this. If you do not do this, you will suffer a penalty. You will suffer a penalty directly proportional to how long you choose not to do this. And new players find this out, and they realize, hey, this kind of sucks, being forced to not play the game for a month if I want the best benefits. I think I'll leave and play a different game.

Then we get the elitists who turn up their noses.

Oh, you're not willing to suffer? Well perhaps our game is too good for you!

No. Wrong. There is no elitism. This is an MMO, a community based game. The lifeblood of this MMO, of any MMO, is the new users. Without new users, we die. If we exclude new users, we die.

Exclusion is death.

Exclusion is death.

Exclusion is death.


Now things become crystal clear, you don't understand the strategy behind learning skills so you claim there is none.

If you are trying out the game but aren't sure if it is for you, train the skills that help you immediately.
If you decide you are going to stick with the game, start picking off learning skills here and there to help you long term.
If you are familiar with the game and want a quick specialty alt, forget learning skills on that alt.
If you are familiar with the game and are building up what will be a long term character on another account or possibly a cap ship alt with other support skills, train learning skills first.

It only requires some forethought.

Instant gratification is not of primary importance in EVE.

Edit: Also, using some of the arguments I have seen here one could also just as easily say that anything other than training level 5 in a skill is a waste of time. Remove level 1-4 completely, they serve no purpose other than a time sink.


Lefty Twotimes
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:37:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 30/06/2010 18:38:47
While you might not have a problem with them personally a lot of people do. Once some of my friends found out about learning skills it completely turned them off of the game. In one of their words "Having to spend a month's sub doing nothing but training skills so I learn skills as fast as you do is f'ing dumb."

Mrs Kleo
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:42:00 - [64]
 

Learning skills are a terrible aspect of Eve. Its just about the most newbie unfriendly thing you could add - forcing new players to spend days/weeks making no tangible progress while they tick away at learning skills versus training a fun skill, but knowing that you are gimping your character long term.

If CCP refunds learning skills and boosts player attributes, we'll probably get a free stat reallocation too.

The main point is that getting rid of learning skills would make this game more newbie friendly. So, yeah, do this by your winter expansion when you get your next big influx of players and eve goes on steam sale again.

Hemp Invader
Inverted Worlds
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:45:00 - [65]
 

If CCP does this move, it will be the best economic move they will ever make.
Why?
i) new players like a dynamic game, where you can experiment stuff
ii) you can't tell someone: "Hey, you f*g, welcome to the game, now wait for one month before you can undock or do something and you can't complain either cuz we're in charge, now suck it up and live with it!"

These two things added together make profit.

My opinion is that the sooner they do this, the more they will get from converting euros and dolla's to ISK.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:57:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1

Now things become crystal clear, you don't understand the strategy behind learning skills so you claim there is none.

If you are trying out the game but aren't sure if it is for you, train the skills that help you immediately.
If you decide you are going to stick with the game, start picking off learning skills here and there to help you long term.
If you are familiar with the game and want a quick specialty alt, forget learning skills on that alt.
If you are familiar with the game and are building up what will be a long term character on another account or possibly a cap ship alt with other support skills, train learning skills first.



Deciding if I'm going to sit down and play a game of chess is not a strategy for playing a game of chess.

Cat IntheBox
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:02:00 - [67]
 

Could a representative of the development team please make a CCP standing on this speculation? I ask because the people obsessed with removing LS are not stopping with the escalation, and I'm in the middle of training cybernetics 5 and the rest of advanced LS to 5.

If a developer could at least take a second to address this anxiety campaign on the forum then I'd know whether or not to abandon the rest of the skillplan.

KTHX.

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:04:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14
Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.

Umm... no, you don't.

There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:08:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14
Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.

Umm... no, you don't.

There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.


Based on your analogy the person who skips the passive will get his face stomped into the ground by the guy who has passive+fireball.

Just sayin'.

Hemp Invader
Inverted Worlds
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:10:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14
Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.

Umm... no, you don't.

There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.


Learning skills are MANDATORY...that's the problem. There is no choice here, none what so ever. You can give us bull**** about freedom of choice and all, but it's like choosing between life as a king or life as a peasant and we all know what everyone would choose.

Ralnik
Alpha Squad
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:11:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Ralnik on 30/06/2010 19:13:27
This was my guess as to what the skill point allocation thing would be used for. I really hope it's what they do.

While I can understand what CCP was going for when it comes to the learning skills, it just doesn't work in the real world. It puts noobs in the position of having to train useful skills as a slow pace so they can at least do something "fun" or they have to spend a month plus training learning skills.

Anyone that cries about a change like this happening would a one bitter mofo. Hell I'd even be for the change even if I didn't get the wasted SP's back.

Also to the bitter vet crowd that cries about not having this or that when you started.. Well you also didn't have to try to compete with all the various things that have been added to the game since you started.

While yea there are some things that might be easier now for noob, there are also many things that are much harder. Also lets not forget this game is supposed to be about having fun and there is nothing fun about spending a month plus training "learning skills.

Cat IntheBox
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:14:00 - [72]
 

I'm going to reiterate a call to dev update on this player-led anti-LS campaign.



And also to anyone: does LS removal also essentially remove attribute implants as well?

JitaBum
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:16:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Cat IntheBox
I'm going to reiterate a call to dev update on this player-led anti-LS campaign.

I would be very surprised if CCP would do such a large change at the moment, especially when their attention isn't really on Eve

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:16:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: JitaBum
Originally by: Cat IntheBox
I'm going to reiterate a call to dev update on this player-led anti-LS campaign.

I would be very surprised if CCP would do such a large change at the moment, especially when their attention isn't really on Eve

It's not really large.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:17:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Cat IntheBox
I'm going to reiterate a call to dev update on this player-led anti-LS campaign.



And also to anyone: does LS removal also essentially remove attribute implants as well?


Honestly, "Removal" is a misnomer. What people are really aiming for is Learning Skill Obselesence: That learning skills should be removed, the bonuses they provide distributed equally to everybody, and the skill points invested in them placed in the SP pool for redistribution.

Implants don't qualify because there's a risk involved in using them; an actual gameplay decision. Other skills don't qualify for the same treatment because every other skill has non-meta influence over your character. Two characters with identical skills except for learning are two characters with identical abilities.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:18:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Hemp Invader
Originally by: Spades Slick
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14
Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.

Umm... no, you don't.

There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.


Learning skills are MANDATORY...that's the problem. There is no choice here, none what so ever. You can give us bull**** about freedom of choice and all, but it's like choosing between life as a king or life as a peasant and we all know what everyone would choose.


IF you're planning to train a hauling alt you might stop at 3 million or 6million sp depeendin on what ships you needed and how quickly you wanted to get back to trainin another character on the same account.


You wouldn't train all the skills to the highest level... it depends on what your goal is and whether the expenditure makes sense.

You also have opportunity cost...too if you want a cyno alt in a couple weeks etc.

XIII'th
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:18:00 - [77]
 

and then ccp will nerf

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:19:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:22:49
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:21:51
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Spades Slick
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14
Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.

Umm... no, you don't.

There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.


Based on your analogy the person who skips the passive will get his face stomped into the ground by the guy who has passive+fireball.

Just sayin'.



... your point? So people who train supplementary skills get a benefit... I don't see the problem here.

Originally by: Hemp Invader
Originally by: Spades Slick
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14
Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.

Umm... no, you don't.

There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.


Learning skills are MANDATORY...that's the problem. There is no choice here, none what so ever. You can give us bull**** about freedom of choice and all, but it's like choosing between life as a king or life as a peasant and we all know what everyone would choose.


No. They aren't mandatory. Nothing is forcing you to train learning skills at all. You can go out missioning as soon as you want. Be in a good-fit Cruiser or BC within a month or so (if you prioritize right), run L4s with other people, and be as rich. Have a decent tackler within 2 or so weeks, so there's your PVP people. The loss in your training time without learning skills is only really evident after several months of playing. Until then, you don't have that much of a disadvantage.

Please create an alt, then make some extravagant 4 or 5 month plan for it in EVEMon. Follow its learning skill suggestions. It doesn't tell you to train up to L5 in all learning skills, just to like 3/2 or something equally manageable (less than a week of training, which can be interspersed with combat, Ewar, etc. skills). The returns are diminishing until you start talking about people who plan to be here for years -- and those who do have the patience to do learning skills.

This is a false dilemma. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma . You claim that one only has two choices: skip the learning skills and inexplicably be unable to play EVE, or learn them and be uber. Unfortunately for your claim, it's possible to be decent without learning skills, and you can have crappy management skills after you finish learning and not be good at anything.

Cat IntheBox
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:19:00 - [79]
 

Quote:
It's not really large.




This would actually be the most profound gameplay change in several years. Strictly talking gameplay, not feature introduction (PI, etc) or hardware (T3 ships, etc), but essential game mechanics.

Hemp Invader
Inverted Worlds
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:19:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Cat IntheBox
I'm going to reiterate a call to dev update on this player-led anti-LS campaign.



And also to anyone: does LS removal also essentially remove attribute implants as well?


Don't count on a dev reply in this thread till:
a)it reaches the 21st page
b)they post on all the other threads except this one(/me looks at the planetary interaction exploit thing thread)

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:25:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Spades Slick
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14
Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.

Umm... no, you don't.

There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.


Based on your analogy the person who skips the passive will get his face stomped into the ground by the guy who has passive+fireball.

Just sayin'.



... your point? So people who train supplementary skills get a benefit... I don't see the problem here.



Well... then by your analogy they ARE mandatory.

Unless you're stupid and/or like losing.

I'm really not arguing either/or just going by your analogy tbh.

JitaBum
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:26:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Jasdemi
It's not really large.

Yeah cos all it involves is deleting a few database entries, rite? Rolling Eyes

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:28:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Jasdemi on 30/06/2010 19:29:29
Originally by: JitaBum
Originally by: Jasdemi
It's not really large.

Yeah cos all it involves is deleting a few database entries, rite? Rolling Eyes

+ adding few skill points to their new, awesome skill points pool!

PS: I even reported this thread several times, but no dev wants to respond. :(

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:30:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Spades Slick
Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:04:14
Everyone against learning skills cites a false dilemma. They claim you 'have' to learn these skills.

Umm... no, you don't.

There is nothing forcing you to learn the learning skills. Nothing whatsoever. If you want to compare this to any other RPG/MMO, then it's like people who ignore passive skills that give bonuses to all their skills because they want to learn how to shoot fireballz faster.


Based on your analogy the person who skips the passive will get his face stomped into the ground by the guy who has passive+fireball.

Just sayin'.



... your point? So people who train supplementary skills get a benefit... I don't see the problem here.



Well... then by your analogy they ARE mandatory.

Unless you're stupid and/or like losing.

I'm really not arguing either/or just going by your analogy tbh.


Goddamn. How many times do I have to say it?

Quote:
No. They aren't mandatory. Nothing is forcing you to train learning skills at all. You can go out missioning as soon as you want. Be in a good-fit Cruiser or BC within a month or so (if you prioritize right), run L4s with other people, and be as rich. Have a decent tackler within 2 or so weeks, so there's your PVP people. The loss in your training time without learning skills is only really evident after several months of playing. Until then, you don't have that much of a disadvantage.

Please create an alt, then make some extravagant 4 or 5 month plan for it in EVEMon. Follow its learning skill suggestions. It doesn't tell you to train up to L5 in all learning skills, just to like 4/2 or something equally manageable (less than a week of training, which can be interspersed with combat, Ewar, etc. skills). The returns are diminishing until you start talking about people who plan to be here for years -- and those who do have the patience to do learning skills.


It's a win/win. People who don't have the patience can level up to be leet tacklers quickly with their 1.6 mil 100% bonus. People with moderate patience will use EVEMon and just train what they need for their goals. People who plan on being here for years don't particularly care about the learning skills, because it's one month out of dozens.

Please stop claiming that it's "mandatory". It's not. I've explained exactly why. Even a few levels (say, to 3) of the tier 1 learning skills would take maybe 2 days of training, with the 100% bonus. Whenever I see a skill on my sheet that I can add one or two levels to for only a few hours of training, I add it; it makes sense overall.

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:37:00 - [85]
 

Agree with the OP, it's not a matter of IF they'll do it, but WHEN. They've already said they think the learning skills were a mistake.

Also, 1 billion ISK says 75% of the people who are adamantly defending learning skills will immediately switch sides and agree that they suck as soon as CCP announces their removal.

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:41:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Mathias Black
Agree with the OP, it's not a matter of IF they'll do it, but WHEN. They've already said they think the learning skills were a mistake.

Also, 1 billion ISK says 75% of the people who are adamantly defending learning skills will immediately switch sides and agree that they suck as soon as CCP announces their removal.


So when can I collect?

Because I believe strongly that, with the current system, patience and planning for the long term is rewarded. Without learning skills, it wouldn't be as amazing to have, say, a specialized Command guy for your fleet -- you can just go to corp chat, "Hey, can someone grab their Command Ship?", 20 people respond. You cut out the strategy of the game in favor of making it another generic skillfest like any of numerous other MMOs.

Cat IntheBox
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:49:00 - [87]
 


Quote:

So when can I collect?

Because I believe strongly that, with the current system, patience and planning for the long term is rewarded. Without learning skills, it wouldn't be as amazing to have, say, a specialized Command guy for your fleet -- you can just go to corp chat, "Hey, can someone grab their Command Ship?", 20 people respond. You cut out the strategy of the game in favor of making it another generic skillfest like any of numerous other MMOs.




^

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:53:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Mathias Black
Agree with the OP, it's not a matter of IF they'll do it, but WHEN. They've already said they think the learning skills were a mistake.

Also, 1 billion ISK says 75% of the people who are adamantly defending learning skills will immediately switch sides and agree that they suck as soon as CCP announces their removal.


So when can I collect?

Because I believe strongly that, with the current system, patience and planning for the long term is rewarded. Without learning skills, it wouldn't be as amazing to have, say, a specialized Command guy for your fleet -- you can just go to corp chat, "Hey, can someone grab their Command Ship?", 20 people respond. You cut out the strategy of the game in favor of making it another generic skillfest like any of numerous other MMOs.


Uh... I think you might be confused... we're not talking about removing the whole skill training system, of course that will stay. We're just talking about the "Learning" skills specifically, you know, Learning, Iron Will, Analytical Mind, etc.

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:57:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 19:58:58
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Mathias Black
Agree with the OP, it's not a matter of IF they'll do it, but WHEN. They've already said they think the learning skills were a mistake.

Also, 1 billion ISK says 75% of the people who are adamantly defending learning skills will immediately switch sides and agree that they suck as soon as CCP announces their removal.


So when can I collect?

Because I believe strongly that, with the current system, patience and planning for the long term is rewarded. Without learning skills, it wouldn't be as amazing to have, say, a specialized Command guy for your fleet -- you can just go to corp chat, "Hey, can someone grab their Command Ship?", 20 people respond. You cut out the strategy of the game in favor of making it another generic skillfest like any of numerous other MMOs.


Uh... I think you might be confused... we're not talking about removing the whole skill training system, of course that will stay. We're just talking about the "Learning" skills specifically, you know, Learning, Iron Will, Analytical Mind, etc.


You DO realize that everything after Battleship pretty much has its own unique line of training? By doing Learning Skills, you can do the 100+ days to a command ship faster... and a person who commits to it DESERVES it at the end of the run.

Without player-controlled attribute boosting, or if everyone trains everything at the same speed as everyone else (barring implants or remaps, not sure what hogwash you want with those elements), doing any of those more intense, specialized skills becomes something ANYONE can do... and so no one will be as committed to the path they choose. That commitment is part of the 'strategy of EVE' I am discussing -- the idea that your character should be good at few things, but very good at those things; or a mediocre 'jack of all trades'. People who want to be in the higher-level roles -- commanders, black ops, marauders, cap-drivers, etc. -- will say, "okay, I'll train learning skills so that when I enter the second year of my skill plan, I've saved a month on training overall!"

Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:59:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Mathias Black
Originally by: Spades Slick
Originally by: Mathias Black
Agree with the OP, it's not a matter of IF they'll do it, but WHEN. They've already said they think the learning skills were a mistake.

Also, 1 billion ISK says 75% of the people who are adamantly defending learning skills will immediately switch sides and agree that they suck as soon as CCP announces their removal.


So when can I collect?

Because I believe strongly that, with the current system, patience and planning for the long term is rewarded. Without learning skills, it wouldn't be as amazing to have, say, a specialized Command guy for your fleet -- you can just go to corp chat, "Hey, can someone grab their Command Ship?", 20 people respond. You cut out the strategy of the game in favor of making it another generic skillfest like any of numerous other MMOs.


Uh... I think you might be confused... we're not talking about removing the whole skill training system, of course that will stay. We're just talking about the "Learning" skills specifically, you know, Learning, Iron Will, Analytical Mind, etc.


You DO realize that everything after Battleship pretty much has its own unique line of training? By doing Learning Skills, you can do the 100+ days to a command ship faster... and a person who commits to it DESERVES it at the end of the run.

Without player-controlled attribute boosting, or if everyone trains everything at the same speed as everyone else (barring implants or remaps, not sure what hogwash you want with those elements), doing any of those more intense, specialized skills becomes something ANYONE can do... and so no one will be as committed to the path they choose.

There are implants ingame, no?


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