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blankseplocked Learning skills: the end is near, at last!
 
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akuera
Posted - 2010.06.30 12:46:00 - [31]
 

I certently hope they do it :)

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.06.30 12:55:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Taedrin


Or they could be using it for future gifts to the players or incentives to resubscribe your account. Perhaps also an incentive to recruit more players to the game too. There are a dozen different ways this could be used by CCP.


Yes they could and I did not say my list was extensive. But what would be a better gift to players that spent a month or more on learning skills for at least one of their pilots?


Originally by: Gariuys


Oh goody, gonna make this in another SP microtransactions are cool thread? I had so much fun reading the last one. Been out of the loop for a bit so it's really quite usseful in getting too know the new trolls. Laughing


/ shakes fist Mad

I be not a troll I have just been here too long YARRRR!!


Slade

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2010.06.30 14:40:00 - [33]
 

Didn't mean you... unless you support that idea as well... then you're a troll even if you're not... but if you've been here long I doubt you would support such a crappy idea anyway. ;-)

Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.30 14:43:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Deizel
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills)
2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect)
3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)

YES!!

Originally by: Deizel
Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)


NO!!!!
Revmoval of learning skills is very nice already. Even if it's at the expense of the double speed training time!

Alia Corrino
Posted - 2010.06.30 15:43:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Deizel
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills)
2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect)
3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)

YES!!

Originally by: Deizel
Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)


NO!!!!
Revmoval of learning skills is very nice already. Even if it's at the expense of the double speed training time!


+1

Learning skills are silly. Every time I think about getting an alt the month of learning skills puts me off entirely again.

I highly doubt anyone would be disappointed if learning skills were removed and we were given the total SP invested (around 2 million-ish for 5/4 I think). The only thing is the cost of the skill books, but I'm sure everyone would manage.

Ariane VoxDei
Posted - 2010.06.30 16:15:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Deizel
Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game.

This will result in:

1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills)
2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect)
3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)
Not likely but anyway...
1) if it happens, expect to see that figure adjusted to 8 or 9, not 10.
2) no, not happening, but maybe some PR guy can twist it into being true if we actually get +10 instead of +9 or +8.
3) could happen, though assigning them to a double training rate limit is the preferred solution from a balance point of view (it just requires more work).
Problem is of course that you could dump them into skills where your stats are horrible (kinda cheating) or dump them on a alt (see http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1344878) though that could possible be denied by GMs.
Quote:
Further changes:

4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)
Disclaimer: I do not work for CCP, nor do I have any insider information; this is my personal opinion only.
4) No, not happening.
"premade" 900k/1M SP chars like that are the exact reason there is double training rate until the first 1.8M SP (2x 900k), it had a lot of undesireable sideffects.
For similar reasons people do not get maxed out skills on Singularity.

ps: Deizel, just because there is talk/debate/speculation in E-UNI chat (last night) does not mean there is any kind of dev action brewing. I'm pretty sure they had happily forgotten and hoped that we had as well, otherwhise they would have to, you know, actually live up to a promise.

Barakkus
Posted - 2010.06.30 16:21:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Deizel
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)



You USED to get specialized skill sets when creating a character depending on race/caste/profession choices. I don't know why they removed all that.

Octoven
Amarr
State Protectorate
Posted - 2010.06.30 16:28:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
Originally by: Deizel
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)



You USED to get specialized skill sets when creating a character depending on race/caste/profession choices. I don't know why they removed all that.


Because people were *****ing about not being able to choose which skills they wanted soo CCP removed the sets gave us a trian bonus to train learning skills which actually added to length of training time. I loved the skill sets and wished we had them back but I dont see that happening too many idiots are used to the whole new concept to personalizing skills. You should be able to have 900K skills to allocate from character creation to use however you want THATS what i thought they were replace skill sets with and that is what I will support. Lets take learning skills out get rid of the time bonus and give all new toons 900K SP to allocate where they wish to now that the system is in place to do so.

Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.06.30 16:30:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
You USED to get specialized skill sets when creating a character depending on race/caste/profession choices. I don't know why they removed all that.


Veterans were able to choose the right career and specialty to obtain the pilot they desired. A new player did not have any idea what they wanted to do in game and felt they were pigeon holed into a limited career path with their initial choice.

Skydell
Caldari
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2010.06.30 16:36:00 - [40]
 

11 skills,
6 rank 1 to 5, 5 rank 3 to 4.
2,214,825.

One rank 10 to level 5. 2,560,000
One rank 12 to 5. 3,072,000.

Its a long forgotten drop in the bucket to a vet. But lets not fool ourselves. It is a respec.

Nothing is going to make EvE subscriptions 'Skyrocket' as someone suggested. Those potential days are long gone and never really happened for EvE anyway.

There can be a surged return but it means CCP need to fix the lagg. I dont have any silver bullets there. They dont either. So status quo will remain. High sec huggers (like me) will stay where we are, 0.0 sec huggers will continue to get filthy rich because the combat system there is broken. We will wonder about .5% of our SP and if we can roll it around and forget the obvious. The game is in a flux because of whatever happened after Dominion stopped the ISK sinks.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.06.30 16:43:00 - [41]
 

I support removing learning skills if...

1: People that trained learning skills are reimbursed the points they spent.

2: All attributes are set back to their original (non-learning skill enhanced) levels.

It's the only way to make it fair for everyone. Wink

What's that you say?
You don't like that option at all?
You want all of the perks but none of the price?

Yeah, thats pretty much what I thought. Stop trying to remove choices that have consequences from EVE.

Learn to think ahead.

Schmacos tryne
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:00:00 - [42]
 

ffs... I have maxed learning skillz and +5 implants

plus i plan my skillz which means i have a ****load of SP for a character my age.

Don't come here and talk about being fair. Fair is advantage to pilots who has training skillz maxed

I enjoy watching all the jealous and undiciplined whiners lagging further and further behind in total skillpoints.

max them and shut up!

Psychotic Maniac
Caldari
Head Shrinkers
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:02:00 - [43]
 

You forgot you can purchase up to 10m sp per year for the sum of $10 usd per 1m sp.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:03:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Schmacos tryne
I had to suffer, so everybody else should too!


Uhh huh.

Octoven
Amarr
State Protectorate
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:05:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
I support removing learning skills if...

1: People that trained learning skills are reimbursed the points they spent.

2: All attributes are set back to their original (non-learning skill enhanced) levels.

It's the only way to make it fair for everyone. Wink

What's that you say?
You don't like that option at all?
You want all of the perks but none of the price?

Yeah, thats pretty much what I thought. Stop trying to remove choices that have consequences from EVE.

Learn to think ahead.



Since I ignore rhetorical questions I will just say resetting attributes to non-learning levels kind of negates the point of even having the skills or even knowing about the skills. I think a +3 on all attributes from base is a nice round figure and it would be equal to all WITHOUT the stupid price you mentioned. I also agree that vets who trained the skills should get the sp back. We wish to remove learning skills because of the pain in the ass they are to train takes away from skills you actually could be training. So losing attributes is not an option no more then not reimbursing the sp you invested. If you wish to pay the real price dont accept reimbursement. You can't have your cake and eat it to. If you want those who havent trained skills to take a hit for the team you have to be willing to do the same....its only fair.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:17:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
I support removing learning skills if...

1: People that trained learning skills are reimbursed the points they spent.

2: All attributes are set back to their original (non-learning skill enhanced) levels.

It's the only way to make it fair for everyone. Wink

What's that you say?
You don't like that option at all?
You want all of the perks but none of the price?

Yeah, thats pretty much what I thought. Stop trying to remove choices that have consequences from EVE.

Learn to think ahead.


This is a poor attempt at reverse psychology that's based on a false premise. The reverse psychology is painfully obvious to anybody over the age of 6, so I'm just going to base on the false premise.

The false premise here is that removing learning skills outright would be fair on everyone.

Removing learning skills and replacing them with corresponding bonuses would be fair because everybody gets raised up to an equal level; Nobody loses anything.

Removing learning skills without redeeming them serves to hurt every single person who did not invest in learning skills. In other words, it would make learning skills retroactively MORE significant, not less.

Learning skills aren't a choice, they're an ultimatum. You either suffer early on, or you suffer more later on.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:32:00 - [47]
 

Right! Because people that are unwilling to plan ahead and work learning skills into their game plan deserve to get a boost to their attribute scores instantly and for free because...

...

... because why again exactly?

Question

Aiwha
Caldari
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:39:00 - [48]
 

I would definitely enjoy this.


But I doubt it will happen.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:39:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Right! Because people that are unwilling to plan ahead and work learning skills into their game plan deserve to get a boost to their attribute scores instantly and for free because...

...

... because why again exactly?

Question


WHAT PLAN?

Here is the best plan for learning skills: Get them before you do anything else. The order in which you get the learning skills can probably be maximized.

There is no gaming in this. There is no challenge in this. There is no careful thought or planning in this. If you do not do this, you will suffer a penalty. You will suffer a penalty directly proportional to how long you choose not to do this. And new players find this out, and they realize, hey, this kind of sucks, being forced to not play the game for a month if I want the best benefits. I think I'll leave and play a different game.

Then we get the elitists who turn up their noses.

Oh, you're not willing to suffer? Well perhaps our game is too good for you!

No. Wrong. There is no elitism. This is an MMO, a community based game. The lifeblood of this MMO, of any MMO, is the new users. Without new users, we die. If we exclude new users, we die.

Exclusion is death.

Exclusion is death.

Exclusion is death.

Vossejongk
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:50:00 - [50]
 

Exclusion is death.

Now repeats itsself in my head for the rest of this day.

Spades Slick
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:52:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Spades Slick on 30/06/2010 17:52:06
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Ranger 1
Right! Because people that are unwilling to plan ahead and work learning skills into their game plan deserve to get a boost to their attribute scores instantly and for free because...

...

... because why again exactly?

Question


WHAT PLAN?

Here is the best plan for learning skills: Get them before you do anything else. The order in which you get the learning skills can probably be maximized.

There is no gaming in this. There is no challenge in this. There is no careful thought or planning in this. If you do not do this, you will suffer a penalty. You will suffer a penalty directly proportional to how long you choose not to do this. And new players find this out, and they realize, hey, this kind of sucks, being forced to not play the game for a month if I want the best benefits. I think I'll leave and play a different game.

Then we get the elitists who turn up their noses.

Oh, you're not willing to suffer? Well perhaps our game is too good for you!

No. Wrong. There is no elitism. This is an MMO, a community based game. The lifeblood of this MMO, of any MMO, is the new users. Without new users, we die. If we exclude new users, we die.

Exclusion is death.

Exclusion is death.

Exclusion is death.


There's a penalty on people who skip learning skills?

Wrong.

People who train learning skills get a BONUS. Over the BASELINE.

Bevil Smyth
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:56:00 - [52]
 

I hope that they do remove them, they are honestly one of the biggest put offs for EVE imho, having to explain to friends who take the trial why they have to train skills that appear to do literally nothing when they wanna be doing exciting things instead.

sucky game design there (no offence). huzzah for the removal if it happens!

Vossejongk
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:56:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Vossejongk on 30/06/2010 17:56:54
Originally by: Alia Corrino
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Deizel
1) All characters will receive an additional +10 points for each attribute (same as max attribute learning skills)
2) All skill training will be 10% faster (same as "Learning" skill effect)
3) Skillpoints that were formerly under "Learning Skills" will become "unallocated Skillpoints" (out of fairness to those who trained those skills)

YES!!

Originally by: Deizel
Further changes:
4) New characters will get 900,000 Skillpoints to allocate instantly as they like (to make characters more useful as well as more specialized right from the start)


NO!!!!
Revmoval of learning skills is very nice already. Even if it's at the expense of the double speed training time!


+1

Learning skills are silly. Every time I think about getting an alt the month of learning skills puts me off entirely again.

I highly doubt anyone would be disappointed if learning skills were removed and we were given the total SP invested (around 2 million-ish for 5/4 I think). The only thing is the cost of the skill books, but I'm sure everyone would manage.


Having done lvl 5 on all rank 3's and on 2 of the rank 3's i surely expect back more then 2 million SP ^^.. more like 3.5 million...
Edit: I also added the 100k free SP to Eidetic Memory so I'd like that back as well :P

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:02:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
People who train learning skills get a BONUS. Over the BASELINE.


No no, you forget this is the MMO crowd. Not having a bonus is a penalty...

And the planning part is do I spend time so I can spend less time in the future... it's almost like school. You can get a job now and earn money, or go to school and start earning money later, but you'll earn more. And unlikely the real world in EVE it's actually gauranteed that you'll earn more.

Lefty Twotimes
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:04:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Lefty Twotimes on 30/06/2010 18:06:51
How ever you want to put it the wall of learning skills is a barrer between new players and advancement. Removing learning skills and so increasing the train rates of new characters and removing skills that you need to train if you plan to stick with the game but don't effect any other aspect of you character is a great thing.

Some people have zero issue with learning skills for others like me it was a huge turn off from playing Eve for a while. Removing learning skills speeds up the new player experience and lessens the perceived entry barrier to sticking with Eve. With the new sp allocation system the perfect way to reward players that have trained them while removing the skills from the game is available. I don't know any players who love learning skills and think that they add to the player experience but I do know a lot of players who hate them and wish they had never made it into Eve.

Swidgen
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:13:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Deizel
Soon enough, there will be a Dev Blog describing why and how Learning Skills will be removed from the game.

Right. Have another hit, bro.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:15:00 - [57]
 

all they need to do to help the newbies from beeing gimped compared to rich players alts is to start players with lvl 1 first tier learning skills at lvl 3, and make the tier 2 books be a reward that is immediately injected after the completion of a few dozen level 1 missions.

22 million is a fortune that would take months for a true noob but its barely an inconvenience for long term players. Needing to do 2 hours of lvl 1s to get the books would be a barrier to disposable alt creation...turning the scales.

This would give pretty much 80% of the benefit to new players with not much more than a day of training to get the tier two skills up to lvl 3 but would still leave the intersting choices of cake now or more cake later when deciding whether to do lvl t2swhich take 100 days to break even and t1lvl 5's

Takseen
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:25:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Gariuys
Originally by: Spades Slick
People who train learning skills get a BONUS. Over the BASELINE.


No no, you forget this is the MMO crowd. Not having a bonus is a penalty...

And the planning part is do I spend time so I can spend less time in the future... it's almost like school. You can get a job now and earn money, or go to school and start earning money later, but you'll earn more. And unlikely the real world in EVE it's actually gauranteed that you'll earn more.


So the best way to play Eve in the first few months is to...not play Eve?

And on the bonus/penalty thing. When Wow was first released they had a system where your character would get a -50% xp penalty after earning a certain amount, and this penalty would go away if you spent time logged out at an inn. It was designed as an anti-grinding measure. Naturally it was very unpopular.

So, the designers changed the -50% penalty to a +100% XP bonus that went away after a while, and came back gradually when you were logged out. Naturally everyone thought this was a much better idea, because who doesn't love bonus xp.

Of course the designers also doubled the required XP to gain each new level, but fewer people noticed that...

Learning skills are basically the same. Some people see them as a bonus to training speed once they have them. Other people recognise that until they get the skills, they're training at a penalty.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:31:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Spades Slick
There's a penalty on people who skip learning skills?

Wrong.

People who train learning skills get a BONUS. Over the BASELINE.


I do not challenge your proposition that learning skills are a bonus to the baseline.

I propose instead that the baseline is completely irrelevant.

You assume that the penalty I'm speaking of is explicit. It isn't. It's an implicit one that spawns from Eve's competitive nature. It's not explicit, but it's certainly there, and it's certainly significant.

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:31:00 - [60]
 

The odds of them doing it were better before everyone started talking about it. Now i wouldn't be surprised if they delay it a few months just because everyone is insisting they do it. CCP wouldn't be that petty though, right?


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