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JitaBum
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.06.30 13:45:00 - [31]
 

Christ it's all getting a bit petty now

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.06.30 15:55:00 - [32]
 

I rather enjoyed reading Mynxee's last update (CSM June 2010 Summit Retrospective). A well written, very professional piece - that it could almost be mistaken as an office correspondence for a multinational. I'm impressed at amount of thought put into due process, notwithstanding the observations noted on CCP internal workings.

What I found revealing (if it's true as per your update) is CCP trying to design a CSM(?) tool when they don't know heads or tails on the internal CSM workings. That really strikes a chord.

You'll definitely get my votes if you decide to extend your CSM tenure. Wink

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.06.30 16:24:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Sturmwolke
I rather enjoyed reading Mynxee's last update (CSM June 2010 Summit Retrospective). A well written, very professional piece - that it could almost be mistaken as an office correspondence for a multinational. I'm impressed at amount of thought put into due process, notwithstanding the observations noted on CCP internal workings.

What I found revealing (if it's true as per your update) is CCP trying to design a CSM(?) tool when they don't know heads or tails on the internal CSM workings. That really strikes a chord.

You'll definitely get my votes if you decide to extend your CSM tenure. Wink


Why are you complimenting someone on a job well done, when there are perfectly good drama grenades to be flung into the middle of the room? I'm not sure you actually understand how Jita Park is supposed to work...

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.06.30 16:39:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Why are you complimenting someone on a job well done, when there are perfectly good drama grenades to be flung into the middle of the room? I'm not sure you actually understand how Jita Park is supposed to work...


In that case, please ignore my previous post.
Feed those two the lions please, if they continue the tantrums.

Cinori Aluben
Minmatar
Gladiators of Rage
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:35:00 - [35]
 

Good post Ankh, and glad to see it confirmed by Mynxee.

Couple thoughts/points of note:
Quote:
Unfortunately, Nathan, CCPs producer, became very defensive and attempted to justify CCPs development process. He also said that CCP cannot commit to big issues right now, as a lot of their developers are tied down building Incarna and Dust.
This is craziness. It's literally exactly what you complained about, used to justify itself. Come on now. I'm glad to see that CSM took a united front against this, but hopefully it goes somewhere after that. Getting defensive... seriously you should expect some criticism when CSM comes knockin on your door. Buck up, HTFU! Don't get defensive.
Quote:
CCP immediately told us that they are not satisfied with the state PI is in right now, and will work hard on making improvements.
Awesome, very glad to hear it. It's fun right now, but there is definite honing potential.

Quote:
Nathan previously stated that he did not want to commit to fixing Factional Warfare as a whole, despite his own developers thinking of many of these issues as serious.
Again, you've got to be kidding me. Nathan is starting to sound very unreasonable, and in fact the very cause for players to feel the CSM has no worth.
Quote:
Unfortunately, I think it will be a long time before CCP has the time to look at fixing the current situation [in 0.0].
*Sigh*
Quote:
When CCP could give no actual commitment to fixing Low Sec, the CSM urged strongly to look at the issues related to Low Sec. The CSM asked CCP to make small improvements to this area of EVE over time instead, so at least something is done to provide incentives for the players that like to venture to this area. ...The CSM asked for a compromise, to focus on address the so-called "Low-hanging Fruit" issues which are relatively easy to address and will significantly improve gameplay... Disappointingly enough, CCP does not want to commit to a UI overhaul. The CSM proceeded to list smaller problems in the current UI, which were noted by the dev team.
Holy... friggin... crap. NO ISH SHERLOCK. Sorry guys, but *points at his own campaign*
Quote:
CCP developers said that many of their own issues have not made it in-game either and called the CSM to be realistic. The CSM openly questioned their purpose at this point, as they said there was little point in raising player issues if they were never going to get addressed, no matter how small they were or how highly they prioritized them, as CCP would just run off doing its own thing.
Really, I'm EXTREMELY shocked that CCP would be so utterly brash as to respond this way. They're only giving fuel to the fire of the nay-sayers, and are completely ignoring the calls for help of the players! Has anyone mentioned to them that by fixing these things, things that so many have LEFT this game for, they will actually regain old subs? There's so much emphasis on new subs, new subs, that they're forgetting "Bring back old subs!" DO NOT BE SO SHORT SIGHTED CCP!

Good summary again, I look forward to full minutes. Good job to the CSM members that stepped up and fought hard.
/rant

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:36:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Mynxee on 30/06/2010 17:42:48
Edited by: Mynxee on 30/06/2010 17:38:49
Originally by: Sturmwolke
What I found revealing (if it's true as per your update) is CCP trying to design a CSM(?) tool when they don't know heads or tails on the internal CSM workings. That really strikes a chord.


I don't think they'd started on anything, it wasn't discussed. But CCP does seem to enjoy springing "surprise" gifts on its players. My instant thought was that I could see them thinking it would be really cool to offer tools to a sure-to-be-grateful CSM as a surprise for the next Summit. Don't get me wrong. We need some tools--dealing with proposals alone is a grind and a half. And their hearts are in the right place.

But in the moment, I had this vision of the out-of-touch uncle who shows up beaming and bearing gifts for a distant niece, only to be confused and hurt at the look of pure disdain from a tattooed, chain-smoking teenager in response to his offerings of frilly pink dresses because she was not at all the child he thought she was.

Best to nip that possibility in the bud early and do what we can to ensure any effort expended would be aimed at producing something we'd actually find useful.

(also, thanks for the promised support Wink and your kind words about my post; I do work for a multi-national company...guess my writing style just auto-transfers to CSM efforts)


Ophelia Ursus
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:36:00 - [37]
 

Good writeup. While I disagree very strongly with essentially all of your ideas about the game, I'm not at all sure that that matters for the purposes of the current CSM. There is a huge backlog of issues from the last CSMs, very few of which have been implemented - for that matter, we don't even know whether CCP have done anything at all with most of them. The first (and perhaps only) objective of this CSM has to be to try and push a change of culture and focus on CCP, to persuade them to re-engage with the playerbase, to be more open about their plans, and to prioritise the fixing of the old and busted over the half-assed implementation of the new hotness. And on that, you and the rest of the CSM seem to speak as one.

Cinori Aluben
Minmatar
Gladiators of Rage
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.06.30 17:50:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Cinori Aluben on 30/06/2010 17:51:02
--LAG SPECIFIC RESPONSE--
Quote:
CCP is planning to address the most serious lag problems by letting nodes transfer troublesome solarsystems to other nodes which do have capacity left over to deal with a sudden fight.
I like this idea, but I would like to seriously suggest a reverse thought process. Allow the newly loaded node to keep the large fleet, but transfer the other less busy systems (NOT within a 3-5 jump radius) to adjacent, less busy nodes. This prevents jolts & extra data calls to happen on clients already experiencing heavy lag within an engagement, that is so touchy and time sensitive, but transfers those jolts to other clients nearby that are carebearing or sitting in station, less time-sensitive endeavors. It also is more efficient in data transfer quantity. It's more like trimming the fat off a steak that overflows your plate, instead of trying to cut the meat out of the center in one inch pieces and moving it to a new empty plate.

THIS, as well as come up with the ability for nodes to follow players no matter what system they go to, and then for nodes to communicate with each other and merge into a single server entity comprised of multiple nodes. Large fleets most often travel many systems to reach a destination of fighting, so instead of transferring their load over to a new node every time they jump a gate, have the node they are currently on assume control of the system they jump into, because likely that next system will not have anywhere close to the load of that fleet. However, if the system they are jumping into is in fact the opposing fleet, which would be on its own trailing node, then the 2 nodes could preemptively merge in the background and start talking to each other behind the scenes.
TL;DR -- Just my thought logic in regards to algorithmic handling of load.

Swidgen
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:01:00 - [39]
 

So CSM5 is now seen as nothing more than laying the groundwork for CSM6? As CSM1 laid the groundwork for CSM2 which laid the groundwork for CSM3 ... until CSM6 lays the groundwork for CSM7, ad infinitum (at least until CCP pulls the plug).

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.

Anyone who thinks the CSM will ever accomplish anything meaningful is truly bat**** insane.

Flying Spaghettiemonster
Posted - 2010.06.30 21:38:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Swidgen

Anyone who thinks the CSM will ever accomplish anything meaningful is truly bat**** insane.


Bandwagon's full, please catch another.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.06.30 22:02:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Sturmwolke on 30/06/2010 22:04:39

Originally by: Swidgen
Anyone who thinks the CSM will ever accomplish anything meaningful is truly bat**** insane.


If you remember SkyNet AI that achieved sentience in Terminator, I'd say the da hu-man thought it was bat impossible too and think it's all a joke. Things can take a life of its own given enough weight.

I'm on the glass half-full side. What the current CSM (imo) should also focus on is to campaign themselves, not only for issues often talked by the players, but also to pro-actively look at themselves and ask how can they be more accessible to the players - with the same eyes that they used looking at CCP.

Let me give a few examples to get a discussion rolling, the AH is troll haven and they don't have a one-stop "Eve Survival" page.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.01 06:28:00 - [42]
 

So what you are saying is when TQ becomes sentient it will start fixing bugs?

Flying Spaghettiemonster
Posted - 2010.07.01 06:58:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
So what you are saying is when TQ becomes sentient it will start fixing bugs?


I like your usage of the word 'when'.

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.07.01 13:12:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Alsyth
Edited by: Alsyth on 30/06/2010 12:45:42
Ankh left her corp and said :

[12:26:22] EVE System > [...]
[12:38:55] Ankhesentapemkah > sokratesz is a jerk and one of the few guys not productive in the CSM
[12:39:07] Ankhesentapemkah > here's my view http://eve-takecare.net
[12:39:38] Alsyth > you sure you wanted to say that ?
[12:44:36] Jareck Hunter > read his comments...


In the CSM public channel....



She's right, sokratesz is a jerk :)

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.07.01 20:03:00 - [45]
 

Ankh, whatever your position on issues is, you have produced a very nice summary. Thank you.

GallenteCitizen 9035768
Hephaestus Corporation
Posted - 2010.07.02 09:07:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
While we are waiting for the minutes, feel free to read my report on the CSM's accomplishments in Iceland. Very Happy

http://eve-takecare.net/


you threw a spoon at someone

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.07.02 09:28:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Vagina Monologue
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
While we are waiting for the minutes, feel free to read my report on the CSM's accomplishments in Iceland. Very Happy

http://eve-takecare.net/


you threw a spoon at someone


Did you say something? *stares at cleavage*

Clovermite
Kamikaze Fleet Command
Kamikaze Project
Posted - 2010.07.02 20:36:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Clovermite on 02/07/2010 20:40:17
Excellent updates - both Ank and Mynxee.

*Thumbs Up*

Being new to the game I am not aware of CSM's history, so I may be too optimistic, but it sounds like you guys really are clawing your way to progress. It's good to hear that the devs are on board too.

Now we just have to break through to the executives.

mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.02 23:21:00 - [49]
 

not enough things were thrown, pretty disappointed in this.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2010.07.06 02:37:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Cinori Aluben

Quote:
Nathan previously stated that he did not want to commit to fixing Factional Warfare as a whole, despite his own developers thinking of many of these issues as serious.
Again, you've got to be kidding me. Nathan is starting to sound very unreasonable, and in fact the very cause for players to feel the CSM has no worth.



It really is starting to sound like there is a sociopath embedded and slowly ruining Eve from the inside out.

Not finishing faction war?

All expansions are solely for attracting new customers to buy PLEX and none of them will ever be finished now or into the future?

Gefgarion Askaris
Posted - 2010.07.07 01:39:00 - [51]
 

It's nice to know that CCP really could give a crap about it's player base and what they want. And that they also could care less about fixing bugs that they have previously admitted they knew about.

Anyone want to take bets on how much money they lose with Dust? Devoting an entire development team and most of another to an FPS that has to compete with games like Halo and CoD sounds like a recipe for disaster. Especially when they can't fix issues in their current game. (Which of course is a completely different genre.)

Miyamoto Isoruku
Caldari
Original Sin.
Posted - 2010.07.07 01:56:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Gefgarion Askaris
It's nice to know that CCP really could give a crap about it's player base and what they want. And that they also could care less about fixing bugs that they have previously admitted they knew about.

Anyone want to take bets on how much money they lose with Dust? Devoting an entire development team and most of another to an FPS that has to compete with games like Halo and CoD sounds like a recipe for disaster. Especially when they can't fix issues in their current game. (Which of course is a completely different genre.)


I'm beginning to be afraid that DUST could kill EVE, not just from poor resource allocation, but also because if it is not integrated absolutely perfectly, it will make EVE dependent on a startup MMOFPS that could very easily flop. In the meantime, the bugs still aren't getting fixed.

Mongo Edwards
Posted - 2010.07.07 02:06:00 - [53]
 

On a more positive note I hope some of this "low hanging fruit" includes balancing issues i.e. AF's, rockets, hybrids, etc. Seriously it seems like you just have to change a few numbers and ta da subscribers get somethings they have been asking for.

Mongo

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2010.07.07 03:30:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Gefgarion Askaris
Anyone want to take bets on how much money they lose with Dust?


If it was a long-standing product then I'd say that DUST could save Eve....
Diversity, creating a universe bigger then Eve, a universe that can't disappear.

However....

It's a console FPS game, these come and go every week.

Being a console game the hosting will likely be cheap P2P connections between players,
which means anywhere other then the US/EU/Japan the player experience will be 300-400ms latency.

Without dedicated servers no community will grow and DUST will slowly die over a period of weeks or months.

Console FPS games are a cash grab, they are generally cheap builds on existing engines that are released for quick cash around xmas time.
The console game market is not about quality products or long-standing franchise, it's a world of flash in the pan cash grabs on poor product.

Compare this to PC FPS games which still have many dedicated servers, clans, and players years after release.

So..... Where does this leave Eve?

Well if they lie about what dev resources are being spent and continue to allocate resources to DUST at the expense of Eve......
The mass exodus could be just around the corner if they continue to drop the ball with such stunning consistency.

If they get back onto Eve soon rather then ignoring it then they may well save the game from collapse.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.07.07 07:00:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Being a console game the hosting will likely be cheap P2P connections between players,

That is unlikely, I don't think CCP will forgo centralized control, given their current infrastructure and know how. Also, since the Dust world still has to interact with the eve cluster, depending on the tightness of the integration there is little to be gained by p2p connection.
Quote:
which means anywhere other then the US/EU/Japan the player experience will be 300-400ms latency.

CCP hasn't stated if players are grouped by region, but it is likely, you can't expect people to play FPS with 250ms+ latency, so they'll put up regional servers.

Quote:
Without dedicated servers no community will grow and DUST will slowly die over a period of weeks or months.

I foresee the same result, but with a different cause: There are dozens of excellent console shooters out there and I don't see CCP producing a triple A title able to compete in that market. I don't think the MMO integration as selling point will be enough to keep it alive.

Eve is a brilliant concept with less than stellar execution. It seems CCP thinks it can apply the same strategy in the console shooter market, which is doomed to fail IMO: With Eve CCP can get away with it because 1) there is nothing similar gamers could flock to, 2) the game design attracts a very distinct player group which is above average accepting/capable of living with the deficiencies. Both points do NOT apply to console shooters.

Quote:
Console FPS games are a cash grab, they are generally cheap builds on existing engines that are released for quick cash around xmas time. The console game market is not about quality products or long-standing franchise, it's a world of flash in the pan cash grabs on poor product.

I completely agree, which is the reason I think eve and console FPS don't blend.

Quote:
Well if they lie about what dev resources are being spent and continue to allocate resources to DUST at the expense of Eve......
The mass exodus could be just around the corner if they continue to drop the ball with such stunning consistency.

I feel the same.

One can only hope that the CSM managed to deliver a few wake-up calls as stated ugh

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2010.07.07 08:05:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Aineko Macx
That is unlikely, I don't think CCP will forgo centralized control, given their current infrastructure and know how. Also, since the Dust world still has to interact with the eve cluster, depending on the tightness of the integration there is little to be gained by p2p connection.



Have a feeling it's going to be global P2P with the central "server" being done via xBox/PS3 "Achievements"

CCP have said nothing to allay these fears.
There has been no talk of dedicated servers and without dedicated servers,
I can 100% guarantee there is zero point in playing DUST from Australia.

The major concern however is that CCP responds to CSM requests for Eve fixes with:
"No. We have no programming resources available".
and
"I don't like that feature so you don't get it fixed!"



Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.07.07 08:16:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Have a feeling it's going to be global P2P with the central "server" being done via xBox/PS3 "Achievements"
CCP have said nothing to allay these fears.
There has been no talk of dedicated servers and without dedicated servers,
I can 100% guarantee there is zero point in playing DUST from Australia.

We'll see if they're that stupid.
On the other hand, the sooner Dust dies, the less resources will have bee spent on it, and the better the chance CCP won't be ruined.

Quote:
The major concern however is that CCP responds to CSM requests for Eve fixes with:
"No. We have no programming resources available".
and
"I don't like that feature so you don't get it fixed!"

That's not a concern. That's reality.

PCP Houk
Posted - 2010.07.07 17:54:00 - [58]
 

Quote:
member removed from csm reported by CCP Wrangler | 2010.07.07 16:59:23 | NEW

Today Eva "Ankhesentapemkah" Jobse was removed from the Council of Stellar Management due to a breach of the non-disclosure agreement (NDA). We are deeply saddened but feel that it was the only possible solution in order to protect the integrity of the Council of Stellar Management. As this is a matter regarding confidential data we do consider this to be a private issue between Eva and CCP, therefore we are unable to comment further.


Laughing

Holly Marshall
Posted - 2010.07.07 20:18:00 - [59]
 

Oh no, who will represent Empire? Grumpy and the Sleestak?

Ker HarSol
Minmatar
Zip - I
Posted - 2010.07.07 20:58:00 - [60]
 

So the only CSM member who really stood up for the CSM and not just playing along for the free visit to Iceland just got removed because of "NDA breach"?

How convenient.


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