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Seimoor
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.06.27 10:03:00 - [1]
 

Hi,

Anyone finding PI a little bit annoying when you have like 12 or 15 extractors per planet and you must click many times to make 1 extractor activate after they expire?

Have anyone addressed this issue or came up with an idea for a solution?

Because I'm thinking a repeat button would be nice, just click once and all extractors repeat the same thing they did previously.

Thanks and good luck :}

Dallenn
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.06.27 11:00:00 - [2]
 

Well yes. But I guess there needs to be a time sink in managing your colony. Then again extractor cycles might get scripted.

Perhaps CCP should replace this with an overheat-repair mechanic that needs to be managed for each extractor/factory.

Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
Posted - 2010.06.27 12:15:00 - [3]
 

Its pretty tedious and pointless. Hopefully CCP's final vision of PI will improve upon this somehow. Until then we're probably stuck with it.

Mrs Jameson
Posted - 2010.06.27 12:25:00 - [4]
 

Two-double clicks per extractor isn't that onerous.

Take me around 20 mins to reactivate 100 or so extractors over two accounts.

Avenger1
Posted - 2010.06.27 15:37:00 - [5]
 

An objective view, dont forget folks if it`s made too easy it becomes more suceptable to the "macers" also just because it may not suit your's or my game play style dosn't mean that it can't or won't suit that of another gamer. If you "need" to run PI, or simply "want to", you will, if not, like most folks you will find other activities in EVE
Like most aspects in EVE you are left alone to "do", or "do not" as suits the individul, so long as it remains withing the EULA.
The exception to this feee choice seems to be the PVP aspect of the game which is always shoved down a gamer's throat whether they wish it or not, whether by CCP design or by pushy PvP orientated players types who seem to dominate the loby at CCP, there always seems to have to be an underlying PvP theme or agenda, in every thing in this MMOG.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2010.06.27 16:38:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Avenger1
An objective view, dont forget folks if it`s made too easy it becomes more suceptable to the "macers" also just because it may not suit your's or my game play style dosn't mean that it can't or won't suit that of another gamer.


By making things more tedious they will discourage macroers?
If that is the sole reason that the CCP gamedesign team made it so, then mere words won't describe how hopeless they are to the task.

Macroers (like our RL software pirates) adapt like the borg. You will never win the war. Period.

By making it tedious and more painful to normal players, they're just driving away the real people that may have been inclined towards the task. The better approach, is to have it as player friendly as possible to muddy the pool and stave off the macroers as much as possible. It'll be an uphill battle, but at least it's not being handed on a silver platter to the macroers if the current trend continues.

Consider RL analogies to the public outcry on the StarForce copy protection system and publishers that use draconian copy protection system. Also wonder on the business model being used by Stardock that publishes games with virtually no copy protection, in spite of the software climate - still making profits.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2010.06.28 05:54:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 28/06/2010 05:57:01
Putting the gameplay throttle onto clickfest was the most lazy, no brain "solution" used in the design of this game.


It is a good game overall, the choices and strategy are all good fun....

The clicking completely 100% ruins the whole thing.

There are 3 ways to play PI.

1) In 3-5 years time on your mobile phone.
2) With a macro.
3) 3d+ "bugged" extractors.

The 4th option of actually clicking extractors is only for really, amazingly, dumb people.


edit: Avenger: Macros exist where things are too tedius for a human to do.
Making UI, nice, smooth, usable, non-clickfest is the exact oppocite of what encorages macros.
Any repetitive UI is the definition of "perfect for macro'ing".
Repetitive clicking has been used as a game-play crutch and as per usual it fails.

Ulviirala Vauryndar
Gallente
Vauryndar Dalharil
Posted - 2010.06.28 06:31:00 - [8]
 

Posting in the 226th thread about having to restart extractors one by one.

I also encourage asking for the ability to change the extraction plan after already choosing one but not submitting the change. There is nothing worse than putting an extraction plan on 20 extractors in edit mode and then mis-doubleclick on the 21st, having to "cancel" the whole transaction and start over again :|

Conan Piter
Ways and Means
Posted - 2010.06.28 15:27:00 - [9]
 

I don't really understand why people keep asking for things to be easier -- particularly why ISK making operations should be easier.

You should be grateful it is a grind and it is hard to do. If it was easy and fast to do, more people would do it and the value of your product would go down. What would you prefer?

Overcome the obstacles and be better than your competition. That's Eve.

Brolly
Caldari
5ER3NITY INC
Posted - 2010.06.28 15:33:00 - [10]
 

I don't understand why you can't have an addition of mass starting extractors and being able to choose from 1 of the 4 extraction rates.

It's not about dumbing down eve or making it easier. Some people have lives and don't get much fun from menial tasks, many years ago games used to be fun, it's true, but then the grind killed it all.

A nice button somewhere....or maybe even a building that automates the process, that could be a nice trade off for making the process more efficient. Granted, you'd still have to log on and restart after every cycle so there's not as many issues with things.

Conan Piter
Ways and Means
Posted - 2010.06.28 15:50:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Brolly
It's not about dumbing down eve or making it easier. Some people have lives and don't get much fun from menial tasks, many years ago games used to be fun, it's true, but then the grind killed it all.


I know what you mean. But... in Eve you are competing with other real people (and that's the fun). Now, if you are viewing PI as entertainment in itself, then yes I quite agree. However if you see it as a form of income then the problem with it being really easy to do (considering PI has very low ISK and skill entry requirements) is that it isn't terribly profitable. Don't forget that your competitors' greatest weakness is the same as yours.

If you are prepared to give up a significant portion of your PI income, then by all means advocate more automation. Or, can you think of something else that would make PI harder instead?

Nuadi
Posted - 2010.06.28 15:50:00 - [12]
 

If you're annoyed by restarting extractors, have you considered converting to an industry-centric network?

At the very least, you would have to establish material routes. Afterward, your work load would reduce to hauling input and collecting output. That aspect may already be present in your network.

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
Posted - 2010.06.28 16:01:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Seimoor

Because I'm thinking a repeat button would be nice, just click once and all extractors repeat the same thing they did previously.


Seems like a lot of people want something for nothing.
I see a lot of people asking for something like this and also people complaining that they are not making enought money from PI.

If all you had to do was setup your planet then click repeat every 5h/1d/3d.... then everyone would do it... then all the comodities would be worth so much less.
Oh and you would all be complaining that CCP dont do enough to stop planet macroing....!!!


Come on people, work a little for your planets!

Ottman
Amarr
LoneWolf Mining
Veni Vidi Vici Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.28 16:04:00 - [14]
 

well tbh, all they gave us are some pitty small resource gathering outposts, for a character 5 years + an ineffective time and isk sink and not worth my while, even doing ice mining for a week 6 h per day earns me more isk than 15 + so called colonies.
and what you ccp call an elite command center is at best a bad joke, everything below 50 k grid i wont call elite, to give you a number...

and btw not that i do that ice mining much, but as reference example i choose that.

MfG Ottman

Conan Piter
Ways and Means
Posted - 2010.06.28 16:16:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Ottman
well tbh, all they gave us are some pitty small resource gathering outposts, for a character 5 years + an ineffective time and isk sink and not worth my while, even doing ice mining for a week 6 h per day earns me more isk than 15 + so called colonies.
and what you ccp call an elite command center is at best a bad joke

CCP didn't say this was the only way to make money. They didn't say that it would make everybody rich either. And... if everybody did get rich doing it... well they wouldn't be rich would they?

PI is simply another choice. It will suit some people and it won't suit others. Why do so many people equate that with failure?

Originally by: Ottman
everything below 50 k grid i wont call elite, to give you a number...

So you want more grid? So that it will earn you more than ice mining? I hate to be contrary, but I don't think the economy works that way.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.06.28 16:41:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Brolly
I don't understand why you can't have an addition of mass starting extractors and being able to choose from 1 of the 4 extraction rates.


If it didn't suck, then everyone would do it, and there would be 0 ISK profit in it.

If you don't like it, stop doing it, and let those willing to be... is there a word?

At the fair when I was a kid, there was this chicken in a cage. You drop a quarter into a slot, a light comes on, the cjicken pecks at a little piano style keyboard, and when it plays the right notes in order, food drops to the chicken.

So, yeah. PI makes you the chicken in the booth. Every 30 min, 5 hours, day or 4 days the light comes on and you can get some food by playing the right notes. If you are willing to peck at the mouse for a little bit of time, eventually, the food will drop out.


What it seems people want is for the food to fall out without the chicken having to peck on the keyboard first. If you want that, then you have to drop in extra coin in the form of PLEX purchases, which you trade for ISK from people that are willing to be the chickens pecking at the keyboard, playing the right note.

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.06.28 18:21:00 - [17]
 

There are many great tools available to prevent macros. the most basic one is called a captcha system.

You have probably used it trying to activate any
commercial website account.

It asks you to identify letters and you type them in
, if you type it incorrectly it prevents access.

PI could EASILY support this mechanic as well,
in the form of entering a code generated by CCP
servers.

It would save HOURS of clicking wasted in Pi and still
keep Pi safe from macros.




Originally by: Sturmwolke
Originally by: Avenger1
An objective view, dont forget folks if it`s made too easy it becomes more suceptable to the "macers" also just because it may not suit your's or my game play style dosn't mean that it can't or won't suit that of another gamer.


By making things more tedious they will discourage macroers?
If that is the sole reason that the CCP gamedesign team made it so, then mere words won't describe how hopeless they are to the task.

Macroers (like our RL software pirates) adapt like the borg. You will never win the war. Period.

By making it tedious and more painful to normal players, they're just driving away the real people that may have been inclined towards the task. The better approach, is to have it as player friendly as possible to muddy the pool and stave off the macroers as much as possible. It'll be an uphill battle, but at least it's not being handed on a silver platter to the macroers if the current trend continues.

Consider RL analogies to the public outcry on the StarForce copy protection system and publishers that use draconian copy protection system. Also wonder on the business model being used by Stardock that publishes games with virtually no copy protection, in spite of the software climate - still making profits.


Lirinas
Posted - 2010.06.28 18:45:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
There are many great tools available to prevent macros. the most basic one is called a captcha system.

You have probably used it trying to activate any commercial website account.

It asks you to identify letters and you type them in, if you type it incorrectly it prevents access.

PI could EASILY support this mechanic as well,in the form of entering a code generated by CCP servers.

It would save HOURS of clicking wasted in Pi and still keep Pi safe from macros.



That's actually not a bad idea Cyndrogen. It's not the best way to fix the horrid system that PI is, but it could be a good short-term solution while PI get's completely reworked into something far less clunky.

Sadly, despite the wonderful ideas I've seen from people in response to my own complaints, I doubt we'll see anything significant change with PI for a long time - going by past experience.

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.06.28 19:22:00 - [19]
 

CCP will not do anything about it because we are using the system even if it is clunky.

Stop using Pi and maybe they might pay attention.


Originally by: Lirinas
Originally by: cyndrogen
There are many great tools available to prevent macros. the most basic one is called a captcha system.

You have probably used it trying to activate any commercial website account.

It asks you to identify letters and you type them in, if you type it incorrectly it prevents access.

PI could EASILY support this mechanic as well,in the form of entering a code generated by CCP servers.

It would save HOURS of clicking wasted in Pi and still keep Pi safe from macros.



That's actually not a bad idea Cyndrogen. It's not the best way to fix the horrid system that PI is, but it could be a good short-term solution while PI get's completely reworked into something far less clunky.

Sadly, despite the wonderful ideas I've seen from people in response to my own complaints, I doubt we'll see anything significant change with PI for a long time - going by past experience.

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
Posted - 2010.06.29 10:03:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Ottman
well tbh, all they gave us are some pitty small resource gathering outposts, for a character 5 years + an ineffective time and isk sink and not worth my while, even doing ice mining for a week 6 h per day earns me more isk than 15 + so called colonies.


But you can manage your colonies while ice mining. So comparing them as one verses the other is a little redundant isnt it.

Kudlow N'cramer
World Eaters Excavation
Posted - 2010.06.29 12:34:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Seimoor
Hi,

Anyone finding PI a little bit annoying when you have like 12 or 15 extractors per planet and you must click many times to make 1 extractor activate after they expire?

Have anyone addressed this issue or came up with an idea for a solution?



Here's a solution: Don't extract in hisec.

Another solution: You can put in more Basic Industrial Facilities if you extract on shorter cycles. You'll have less extractors, less clicking every time you go to reset them.

Quote:
Because I'm thinking a repeat button would be nice, just click once and all extractors repeat the same thing they did previously.

I'm thinking a "mine this asteroid field" button would be nice. I could log onto Eve for three minutes a day and make a fortune accumulating ore and planetary resources using your repeat button.

Come to think of it, I'm sick of having to kill people in PvP. There should be a "go out and gank" button.


Uma Shakti
Posted - 2010.06.29 12:48:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Actually clicking extractors is only for really, amazingly, dumb people.


If you feel this way, simply stop doing PI. Really. You'll be much happier with the game. And there will be more isk in PI for the rest of us who are (amazingly!) dumb enough to spend the 10 minutes.

Frankly, I don't care one way or the other whether this mechanic gets fixed. In fact, I hope they leave it as is. I'd much rather see them fix command centre upgrades so that one did not need to destroy the entire production chain each time. And I'd like to see some colony content other than extractors and processors. Where are the planetary universities, towns, and citizen populations we were promised at the outset? Can we get some real differences between Amarr and Minmatar colonies, say? Let's hope that's all still in the works.

Khun SP
Paramite Factories
Posted - 2010.06.29 13:16:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Khun SP on 29/06/2010 13:16:22
Originally by: Kudlow N'cramer
Originally by: Seimoor
Hi,

Anyone finding PI a little bit annoying when you have like 12 or 15 extractors per planet and you must click many times to make 1 extractor activate after they expire?

Have anyone addressed this issue or came up with an idea for a solution?



Here's a solution: Don't extract in hisec.

Another solution: You can put in more Basic Industrial Facilities if you extract on shorter cycles. You'll have less extractors, less clicking every time you go to reset them.

Quote:
Because I'm thinking a repeat button would be nice, just click once and all extractors repeat the same thing they did previously.

I'm thinking a "mine this asteroid field" button would be nice. I could log onto Eve for three minutes a day and make a fortune accumulating ore and planetary resources using your repeat button.

Come to think of it, I'm sick of having to kill people in PvP. There should be a "go out and gank" button.




you have no idea what are you talking about...

PI is annoying as it is. Period.


Agente
Posted - 2010.06.29 13:53:00 - [24]
 

When will everybody realize that PI is meant for new players, for whom 10 millions per month are a fortune?
For a new player with a few colonies, that can do nearly nothing because its lack of skills, it is an easy way to buy that frigate or cruiser or mining ship lost, by the price of a few clicks. PI is the lowest layer of isk/hour production.

Red lensman
Gallente
BlackSky inc.
Vanguard.
Posted - 2010.06.29 14:06:00 - [25]
 

try it with 20+ extractors per planet on 3+ chars and you soon get fed up of it, but you need it to keep pos and tech 2 productions going :(

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.06.29 14:07:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Khun SP

you have no idea what are you talking about...

PI is annoying as it is. Period.




No, you don't get it. Mining ice is annoying. Mining asteroids is annoying. Invention, research, manufacturing, traders constantly undercutting your sell order and outbidding your buy orders is annoying.

Heck, grinding missions is annoying.


Making money is annoying.

If PI was not annoying, everyone would be doing it, POS structures would be 1 million each and your profit would be 23 ISK an hour.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.06.29 14:14:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Agente
PI is the lowest layer of isk/hour production.


Not if you consider the time you actually spend on it. Let's say you are making POS fuel and making 10 milion a week. You could think of that as 59K an hour, but you'd be wrong.

I don't count mining profit per hour by including all the time my hulk is sitting in station. I count just the time I'm in it in an ice belt.

20 min a day for a week, and an hour to go pick up the stuff, take it to the trade hun, and sell it. 2 hours? So, call in 5 million an hour.

L1s pay far, far, far less than that.

Heck, I make 10 million a week on datacores, and it took a lot more work to get the skills and standings for that.

Ivorr Bigun
Posted - 2010.06.29 16:41:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Ivorr Bigun on 29/06/2010 16:50:58
Edited by: Ivorr Bigun on 29/06/2010 16:49:50
yes, what this issue needed was yet another thread.

Rolling Eyes

edit: I thought EvE was meant to attract a clever playerbase? Apparently not on the evidence of the multiple threads on this issue:
edit: nm

Captain Havoc
Caldari
ANZAC ALLIANCE
IT Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.29 17:35:00 - [29]
 

The easiest way to manage the extractors would be to have a window not unlike the fleet window, listing all the extractors, there current cycle time (if they're already active), the type of extractor they are (obviously), their specific alphanumeric code that identifies each individual module (so you can work out which one on the planet it is you just click on in the list, maybe even have them highlight on the planet when you hover over them in the list), this way you can hold down ctrl and just select the extractors you want, should you want to differ the times on some or something else or just hit ctrl+a to select them all and hit survey, it tells you next to each extractor how much they're going to extract for each given cycle time, then you just select the cycle time (a selection of 4 buttons to pick cycle times and an apply button wouldn't clog up such a window to much) and hit apply and hey presto your extractors are all cycling as you'd like.


If your just doing the usual daily 'set them all to run for 23hrs' click, then it'd be a case of open the window, hit ctrl+a, hit th cycle time and hit apply, done... rinse repeat on next planet.

The best way i can describe the current interface is the beta, it's like the most basic test interface to see what feedback they get and make changes depending who cries the loudest :P

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.07.18 00:30:00 - [30]
 

Who said you CAN'T macro Pi? Pi is actually easier to macro then mining because:

A: Extractors have fixed locations.
B: The resources being extracted do not change.
C: When you enter PI it always perfectly centers around your command center.

Anyone could setup a macro if they wanted to so the argument that the Pi clicksand is to prevent macro is just rubbish. Clearly anyone who argues that Pi was designed to prevent macros has NO clue what they are talking about or how a macro works.

If CCP REALLY wanted to prevent macros they would make restarting ALL extractors at once require a captcha system, where you have to enter a code generated by CCP servers which would prevent a macro.

Any idiot can write a captcha system and implement it into the game, so why CCP would not implement a captcha system is a better question.



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