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blankseplocked Pod pilots immortal? Not quite.
 
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Thomas Blair
Posted - 2010.06.26 20:07:00 - [1]
 

As you all may or may not know, when a pod pilot gets podded, seconds before the vacuum of space can kill the human inside, there is a machine inside the pod that kills the pilot, and transfers his or her consciousness to their respective clone.

Now, an excerpt from evelopedia:

"Incarna (Also known as Ambulation or Walking in Stations) is an upcoming expansion for Eve Online which will introduce the ability for pilots to step out of their pods and explore the Space Stations throughout the galaxy. Walking in stations was first announced in 2006. The title Incarna was given as the official patch name during the 2009 Fanfest, as part of an update revealing the release to be sometime in 2010."

To make this short, if I were to go up to a pod pilot in a station, and riddle him/her full of holes with my rifle, what would happen? How would their consciousness be transferred to a clone? Now of course, due to in game mechanics, you probably can't do that. But then again, that's why I'm posting in the eve fiction channel Very Happy

Discuss.

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2010.06.26 20:34:00 - [2]
 

you wont be able to do that.

secondly, you probably wont be able to ever, because stations are protected enviroments.

thirdly, you may get incarnaconcordokken'd.

Janos Saal
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.26 21:42:00 - [3]
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniaturization

By the time Incarna rolls out (ETA: Never) capsule technology might have advanced far enough that the mechanisms needed to transfer the consciousness can be made so small that they can be worn on the body.
This wouldn't necessarily make the capsule itself redundant, since I believe the capsule's primary purpose is to allow the pilot to interface directly with his ship.

Cavvel Kevlov
Posted - 2010.06.26 22:13:00 - [4]
 

what about something that you can control from your pod that gives the impression that you are out of your ship but you and you clone is safe inside your pod? (robot? weird clone/cyborg?) Cool

Janos Saal
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.26 22:29:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Cavvel Kevlov
what about something that you can control from your pod that gives the impression that you are out of your ship but you and you clone is safe inside your pod? (robot? weird clone/cyborg?) Cool

Or a hologram.

Soapy5
Gallente
BlackStar Innovations
Posted - 2010.06.27 05:35:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Soapy5 on 27/06/2010 05:36:26
If you read some of the eve books, the broker simply transferred a duplicate of himself into a clone which disposed of himself whenever the clone's objective was complete. Of course the clone had all of the memories, goals, aspirations as the original, so he would have to overcome the will to live for the greater good (the original broker). Atleast thats what I glean off of the books anyway. The only issue would be that the broker would have no way of knowing his copy finished the mission or not. *spoiler* It also does not explain how his body was decaying. if anything that would be evidence that my theory is bunk since having so many uploads from a presumably miniaturized brain scanner (i.e. prototype technology) could corrupt his dna...

Edit: I completely forgot how i was going to tie that to the thread topic...

Esiel
Renegade Serenity
Posted - 2010.06.27 06:44:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Esiel on 27/06/2010 06:45:13
actually the OP is correct but for the wrong reasons. The immortality we recieve is from violent death. (I will overlook the many times we have heard of cloning service malfunction - delete a character in your corp some time and read the mail that comes from that) However in Ruthless We see that our mental and aging process continues. From that novella I was able to simply assume that a capsuler can still die of old age.

Outside the pod we can probably die to but I am sure CCP will come up with reasons and ways to limit that.

Raziphan Rebular
Caldari
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
Posted - 2010.06.27 14:20:00 - [8]
 

In dust it's said that the tech has been made small enough for the mercs to use during ground deployment. So I imagine the same will be true of pod pilots when they are out of their pod.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.06.27 14:46:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 27/06/2010 14:49:09
You can always have a backup clone. If you die you just revert to the last time you had a scan/clone.


Soapy5 said " It also does not explain how his body was decaying."
It is explained but I don't want to post spoilers here. Clones copy everything including the state of the mind. If the mind is effected by a drug during the cloning process then the new clone will wake up with the same effects from that drug.
For example lets say someone has depression caused by a drug that altered the mind. If you clone that mind the altered state of the mind would be cloned.

It's the same problem the Jove have with the Jovian disease cloning the mind clones the problems in the mind.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.27 17:45:00 - [10]
 

I do not think that Capsuleers are really immortal. At some point something like an information entropy will slip in.

Even the most perfect copy of a mind might lose a bit of information in the process. It is same problem that arises when you create copies made from copies, which are themselves copies. Error appear within the copy or the copying mechanism and it slowly degrades in quality.

The same applies if a backup master is stored somewhere away. Because this master copy would be subject of other types of decay over time.

One could say that the natural recombination of genes during the reproduction process is in fact the solution for this, because this rejuvenation process allows our species as a whole, to remain one step ahead of the entropy. So true immortality might only be possible through children.Wink

Crewman Jenkins
Caldari
Malicious Demi-Lancers
Posted - 2010.06.27 20:07:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Crewman Jenkins on 27/06/2010 20:07:54
I thought the whole "copy of a copy" degradation mostly applied to analog systems. Digital copies are exact or discarded.

Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2010.06.27 20:48:00 - [12]
 

Its simple - the neural flashing device which is responsible for rapid scanning and transmission of your neural pathways map when your pod is about to suffer a catastrophic integrity failure is just a piece of advanced technology. As such it can be improved upon.

I suppose something like this will be one of the outcomes of the recent Sansha incursions into Jove space. In other words we may see something like a neural flashing implant becoming part of the standard "equipment" for capsuleers, just like clones are. Such an implant would perform the function of the device now present only in pods. If you are about to die, you get scanned and transmitted into your clone body.

Of, course, this begs the question is the process faster than the bullet penetrating a victim's cranium (i.e. what happens if you get shot in the face)? A possible answer to that could be a different process involving non-lethal neural flashing which simply updates your stored personality on the fly and activates it in the case you die.

Iamien
Democracy of Klingon Brothers
Posted - 2010.06.27 21:20:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Crewman Jenkins
Edited by: Crewman Jenkins on 27/06/2010 20:07:54
I thought the whole "copy of a copy" degradation mostly applied to analog systems. Digital copies are exact or discarded.


Human brain and consciousness is digital?

Nalesh
ASYOULIKE corp
Posted - 2010.06.28 01:09:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Iamien
Originally by: Crewman Jenkins
Edited by: Crewman Jenkins on 27/06/2010 20:07:54
I thought the whole "copy of a copy" degradation mostly applied to analog systems. Digital copies are exact or discarded.


Human brain and consciousness is digital?



With enough storage space, probably.

And what would stop the capsule making a snapshot of your mind when you exit it and then use that?
Or what would stop a clever spy to mess with that data?


Though I'm guessing it will be like how the Dust characters will have their mind stored.

Bud Johnson
Broski Enterprises
Posted - 2010.06.28 07:36:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
I do not think that Capsuleers are really immortal. At some point something like an information entropy will slip in.

Even the most perfect copy of a mind might lose a bit of information in the process. It is same problem that arises when you create copies made from copies, which are themselves copies. Error appear within the copy or the copying mechanism and it slowly degrades in quality.

The same applies if a backup master is stored somewhere away. Because this master copy would be subject of other types of decay over time.

One could say that the natural recombination of genes during the reproduction process is in fact the solution for this, because this rejuvenation process allows our species as a whole, to remain one step ahead of the entropy. So true immortality might only be possible through children.Wink


What has science done?

Dirty Pardel
Minmatar
Blood Money Bootcamp
Posted - 2010.06.28 16:09:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Dirty Pardel on 28/06/2010 16:24:06
Edited by: Dirty Pardel on 28/06/2010 16:11:55
From what I read the cloning technology was implement on capsules due to the sterile sutation and easyness of predictability of one's imminent death (through the capsule breach, in which is there was a breach in the capsule or pod, then the pilot would be dosed with a lethal injection and during this injection at the precise moment of death a copy would be made) and that allowed to reduce the failure rate to below 1%, this is why it was implemented only on pods.

So it will be a bit tricky to simply "evolve" from this as being outside the pod, you can die from diseases, by gun shots, and other stuff, maybe you could predict through heart beats, but even that can be rigged by certain drugs or techniques.
The problem does not reside in size, but occurence predictability, as there are many ways to create almost fatal situations, and thus provide serious repercussions to both the clone and the person being cloned.

In regards to memory loss, there were events where memory was lost, but only very small fractions... So there is clone degradation, which could translate psychologically or physically :)

Read this in the chronicles :)

A solution to me would be an off pod database in which you will have a memory copy stored when you so choose, which does not get updated until you request one, and if you died during a conflict you would simply revert to the saved one... but then again its no longer a conscience transfer, and you would "die", not to mention you wouldn't develop at all. Would make sense for DUST though, as they are simply mercs, and soldiers dont really need to remember much more than what a commander tells them to remember.

Enzigurator
Posted - 2010.06.28 16:19:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Ontaku Oroa
Its simple - the neural flashing device which is responsible for rapid scanning and transmission of your neural pathways map when your pod is about to suffer a catastrophic integrity failure is just a piece of advanced technology. As such it can be improved upon.

I suppose something like this will be one of the outcomes of the recent Sansha incursions into Jove space. In other words we may see something like a neural flashing implant becoming part of the standard "equipment" for capsuleers, just like clones are. Such an implant would perform the function of the device now present only in pods. If you are about to die, you get scanned and transmitted into your clone body.

Of, course, this begs the question is the process faster than the bullet penetrating a victim's cranium (i.e. what happens if you get shot in the face)? A possible answer to that could be a different process involving non-lethal neural flashing which simply updates your stored personality on the fly and activates it in the case you die.


Its not as simple as that actualy, since a person can get shot in the face and not die, a person can break a limb and die, you can die of old age, etc. Neural flashing is so fast that it permanently damages you brain, and doing it while youre alive would force it to be constantly updating, otherwise you could die and have outdated informations regarding any part of it, even if doing regular slower scans, the only solution is the make one huge upload to have all information on par with each other.

In short its not simple, non lethal neural flashing would be the same technology without the setbacks, and that is something that is very uncommon to happen on anything :P

Precentor Saggitus
Amarr
Expeditionary Defense Fleet
Posted - 2010.06.28 21:15:00 - [18]
 

One would assume that the whole "flashing" process of transferring the pilot's memories and consiuosness is simply the quickest way of transferring the data when it becomes apparent that the particlar body in question is about to be killed - in this case by the penetration of the pod. To limit the ammount of data that must be transferred one assumes that clones are regularly updated (like when a pilot upgrades his/her clone) by a perhaps longer process, though less brain destructive one. Should a capsuleer be killed outside of his pod, he can still be "resurected" by activating one of his clones, though with a recent memory loss. The Empyrean Age hints at this since Otro Gariushi has back up clones available - yet is not a capsuleer, and only becomes fearful in dying as he realises the station that gets destroyed also houses his up-to date clones. One would think that capsuleers could also be permanently killed should all their clones also be destroyed.

Personally, game wise there really should be no purpose to any PvP type encounters while in the "walking in stations" enviornment.

Himnos Altar
Gallente
Daisy Cutter's
Posted - 2010.06.29 15:28:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Janos Saal
Originally by: Cavvel Kevlov
what about something that you can control from your pod that gives the impression that you are out of your ship but you and you clone is safe inside your pod? (robot? weird clone/cyborg?) Cool

Or a hologram.



or a True Slave......


 

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