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Lillith Blackheart
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2010.06.26 13:36:00 - [31]
 

Given the size and mass of a Titan, Mr. Shogaatsu, they would not even need to impact the surface. Entering the gravity well of the planet is enough to cause tidal disturbances, imagine if it entered the atmosphere, then pulled back out.

Or, perhaps, jumped into the atmosphere instead of into space. I would suspect the seismic disturbance would be.... impressive.

TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.26 13:44:00 - [32]
 

Titans of current design have no nowhere near enuf size or mass to affect anything by its gravity, as most of the interior of an avatar will be empty space.


Lillith Blackheart
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2010.06.26 14:59:00 - [33]
 


Sylorin
Caldari
MMZ Laboratories LLC
Posted - 2010.06.26 15:14:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Sylorin on 26/06/2010 15:19:13

Correct. It's not a matter of size, but of mass. A titan, even with it's hanger space, still carries enough mass as a rocky asteroid of about the same size.

I'm looking at Captain Nell's image and one of our technicians brought up a good point. Namely, that isn't there a fourth titan flying around out there?

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7641/zjoueucl.png

Or was this one taken out?



Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2010.06.26 17:11:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Sylorin
Edited by: Sylorin on 26/06/2010 15:19:13

Correct. It's not a matter of size, but of mass. A titan, even with it's hanger space, still carries enough mass as a rocky asteroid of about the same size.

I'm looking at Captain Nell's image and one of our technicians brought up a good point. Namely, that isn't there a fourth titan flying around out there?

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7641/zjoueucl.png

Or was this one taken out?





its still out there, in addition, i feel its safe to assume nell's image is a portion of the entire fleet, perhaps only half of it that was there. there might be another four leviathans flying opposite of where the probe was attatched, including the one you just linked.

i have not been told of it being killed. someone correct me if im wrong, but its still out there.

LonTas 5
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.06.26 20:04:00 - [36]
 

LonTas 5 will put aside his differences.

I move for a coalition of all the major empire's fleets. Friends, this news is staggering. We must join together, we must put aside our squabbles and FIGHT to preserve ourselves!

Together!

Ethan Bellator
Taggart Transdimensional
Posted - 2010.06.26 20:28:00 - [37]
 

All of those guys against Empire's capsuleers?

****-poor odds for the little guys, who I would assume is Sanshas Nation. Our only problem is, we can't attack them head-on without incurring the wrath of the Jovians by going into their systems with guns ready to fire.

Would it be possible to stabilize one of those wormholes, jump a large counter-attack force in and get right down to business? Maybe get the Jovians to clear their civilians (if they have any) out of that system?

cilayin
Amarr
Ore Hogz
Posted - 2010.06.26 20:31:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: cilayin on 26/06/2010 20:31:04
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
The fact that they can't doomsday or launch fighters is of little comfort. If a mothership hull struck a planet, the impact would wipe out cities, provinces, change weather patterns and pollute everything... if a Titan fell on one, the planet wouldn't be much use to anyone for a while. These things are the size of a small moon, except made of high-density metal, and powered by piles of antimatter.

Considering they've been harvesting our planetbound cousins and granting them the ability to operate giant warships, this may well be a suicide fleet designed to ravage the core worlds. An attack like that could break the backs of all four nations in one go.


Titans are not the size of moons. More like a very large island. But no, no moon.

kawaii uguu
Posted - 2010.06.26 20:44:00 - [39]
 

Hey Sansha nice fleet and all but I hope you can deal with all the losses you'll be taking if you leave your convenient little wormhole. I hope you have blueprints of Minmatar ships so you can build some new ships from all the hulls you'll have to salvage.

True Power? I've got true power for ya, right here
*grabs Thorax*

Tratarr valkyrie
Posted - 2010.06.26 20:53:00 - [40]
 

Kuvakei, your efforts are futile.
The combined navies which are posed at you will crush you underneath their heel!
Even just one would be able to take down your inferior fleet.
Stay in your hole, Sansha. Or we will have to decimate your "Nation", yet again.

Dhuras
Posted - 2010.06.26 21:17:00 - [41]
 

ohhhh, bloody hell, we need some bigger guns.


Klingon Admiral
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.26 21:23:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Klingon Admiral on 26/06/2010 21:23:12
I wonder why there are no Minmatar hulls present. Kuvakei seems to overestimate the brute force of capital ships, while lacking adequate fast-hitting vessels like the renowned Vagabond-class.

Additionally, you probably overestimate the destructive capabilities of a fleet of that size. Even the Thor-type citadel torpedo is just a "baby" nuclear warhead, and the other capital-sized weapons should not posess much more destructive potential. A fleet of dreadnoughts still needs hour to wear down the shields of a space station, how shall they be able to bombard bigger areas on planets. Additionally, a supercarrier crashing into a planet wouldn't be too horrible, as long as it doesn't hit a population centre. Two years ago, we had a Nyx crashing into a station, and while houndreds of thousands were killed, the structure of the station somewhat survived the incident.

I fear that a supercarrier or titan might crash into Jita IV - Moon 4 CN Assembly Plant. The consequences for interstellar trade would be horrific.

Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
Mordus Angels
Posted - 2010.06.26 21:29:00 - [43]
 

This thread goes on and on, and no one has yet reacted to the fact that Master Kuvakei is alive?

Come on - folks! We have to do better than this.

MASTER KUVAKEI is alive!

Thats news!

Uamentis
Posted - 2010.06.26 21:32:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Klingon Admiral
Edited by: Klingon Admiral on 26/06/2010 21:23:12
I wonder why there are no Minmatar hulls present. Kuvakei seems to overestimate the brute force of capital ships, while lacking adequate fast-hitting vessels like the renowned Vagabond-class.

Additionally, you probably overestimate the destructive capabilities of a fleet of that size. Even the Thor-type citadel torpedo is just a "baby" nuclear warhead, and the other capital-sized weapons should not posess much more destructive potential. A fleet of dreadnoughts still needs hour to wear down the shields of a space station, how shall they be able to bombard bigger areas on planets. Additionally, a supercarrier crashing into a planet wouldn't be too horrible, as long as it doesn't hit a population centre. Two years ago, we had a Nyx crashing into a station, and while houndreds of thousands were killed, the structure of the station somewhat survived the incident.

I fear that a supercarrier or titan might crash into Jita IV - Moon 4 CN Assembly Plant. The consequences for interstellar trade would be horrific.


Yes, but imagine if a ship activated it's jump/warp drive while aimed towards a planet. Even a small object traveling at that speed would obliterate a planet, let alone a capital ship or, god forbid, a titan.

Arboreal Feline
The Scope
Posted - 2010.06.26 21:34:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Eventy One
This thread goes on and on, and no one has yet reacted to the fact that Master Kuvakei is alive?

Come on - folks! We have to do better than this.

MASTER KUVAKEI is alive!

Thats news!


To be fair, it's not very surprising. There've been plenty of rumors and circumstantial evidence that he survived, just no hard facts until now.

Phosphorus Palladium
Posted - 2010.06.26 21:41:00 - [46]
 

Fascinating.

Klingon Admiral
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.26 21:48:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Uamentis
Yes, but imagine if a ship activated it's jump/warp drive while aimed towards a planet. Even a small object traveling at that speed would obliterate a planet, let alone a capital ship or, god forbid, a titan.


Don't forget that our ships travel through planets on a regulary basis. A ship travelling at warp speed is put "out" of our dimension.
And the jump drives seem to "teleport" the ship rather than accelerating it. This process doesn't seem to affect its surroundings too much as the alliances living in the outer regions often use jumpbrigdes to redeploy massive fleets within short time across vast distances, often with "clusters" of ships jumping at the same time.

We even had ships crashing into planets. The most prominent example is arguably the "Kairiola", the ship admiral Tovil-Toba crashed into Gallente Prime about 200 years ago. While thousands died, the consequences for the planet weren't too severe. Although the exact specifications of the Kairiola are unknown, I believe it was about the size of a modern-day carrier. We may not forget that the gravity well of a planet will probably break apart any ship smaller than a full-sized titan.

Janos Saal
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.26 21:51:00 - [48]
 

When that fleet moves, do we know where it will attack? IE; Will that wormhole always open into Huttaken, or could it open anywhere? Is there anything proactive that could be done against this fleet?

Phoenix Torp
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.26 22:05:00 - [49]
 

A simple reasonament:

Sleepers are ancient people in this universe
AND
Jove were the habitants of this universe when we entered in.

There's a Jove BattleStation inside a WH
AND
Sure they need a lot of infrastructure to do WH in a target system of Nation's choice, not very easy to deploy if Jove and Sleeper aren't the same, or at least have the same source.

It's logical to think that if the WH were "opened" for us, and we destroy Sleepers, Jove are angry for that. I would be worried then. The hole of this reasonament is that Concord wear Jove Ships and then would not have salvation.

Jae FelSaen
Posted - 2010.06.26 22:17:00 - [50]
 

Idle threats from a weak coalition with feeble minds. Your opposition is futile and wasteful.

Who among you has a Jovian battlestation with legions of unfaltering Loyal Citizens to defend it in your possession? Or the ability to open a wormhole to a destination of your choosing? You fight a Nation that has been building for this moment for over one hundred years, people, and more importantly you fight against the transcendence of humanity. Humanity has fought against evolution for too long. The Master will lead us to the Promised Land, it is our inescapable destiny.

You see only a fleeting glimpse of the power of The Master. The impurities of the empires of New Eden will be easily washed away in the light of His Salvation, and a new age, an age of utopia for all mankind, will begin.

Jae FelSaen
STLR Directorate
The Master's Ace

Klingon Admiral
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.26 22:22:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Phoenix Torp
A simple reasonament:

Sleepers are ancient people in this universe
AND
Jove were the habitants of this universe when we entered in.

There's a Jove BattleStation inside a WH
AND
Sure they need a lot of infrastructure to do WH in a target system of Nation's choice, not very easy to deploy if Jove and Sleeper aren't the same, or at least have the same source.

It's logical to think that if the WH were "opened" for us, and we destroy Sleepers, Jove are angry for that. I would be worried then. The hole of this reasonament is that Concord wear Jove Ships and then would not have salvation.


Actually, all 4 ancient races ... Jovians, Sleepers, Talocan and Yan-Jung are decendants of human settlers who, like the four empires of our time, survived the millenia after the EVE gate closed. But unlike Amarr, Gallente, Caldari and Minmatar, they reinvented interstellar travel after a comparable short time.
Until the Amarr emerged from the unknown, this four races had fought horrific wars. Obviously, the Sleepers left this part of the universe and traveleld behind the wormholes. What happened to the other two races isn't known, but I assume they either got extinct or hide behind the current boundaries of known space. The Jovians now have their third empire and have lost many parts of their former empire to the Angel Cartel. Actually, the Jovians should be quite happy if we kill sleepers.

And I propose that you attend a advanced history course.

Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
Posted - 2010.06.26 22:25:00 - [52]
 

Firstly, to address the issue of a titan impacting a planetary surface. Collision between objects in a spatial environment DO NOT calculate the same, since explosions,concussion, and energy propagate differently in space than an atmosphere. I dont have the equations directly handy, but a 10,000 meter diameter iron asteroid traveling at 60m/s (max speed for a stock Avatar) with an overall desity of 8.0grams/cm3 (basic iron asteroid) impacting a temperate world with a standard oxy-nitro atmosphere at an impact angle of 90degrees will release 1,790 megatons of explosive force and will create a crater just shy of 16.5 km across and just over 1 km deep at its epicenter. An Avatar, for comparison, is 13km in length along its long axis, and masses in at 2,278,125 metric tons. You can safely assume its density is much greater than a standard asteroid.

So, realistically, if any of the capital ships we fly should actually manage to impact the surface of a planet with any kind of atmosphere capable of transmitting concussion or force remotely efficiently, then everything around the impact site will be destroyed. And, Pilots, by "around the impact site" I mean "in that hemisphere"... (see also, "Extinction Level Event") At any rate, suffice it to say, if the Nation should take to flying their capships into planets.. well. Pray that the ships can be destroyed before they enter the lower atmosphere. If not, then that world is.. well, its just gone. At any rate, that strategy would be one of desperation on the part of the attacking force, and would not accomplish the goal of the Nation as I understand it to be, namely, the assimilation, excuse me, the "betterment" of Mankind.

Since we cannot demand anything of the Jove, I would suggest, Pilots, that supposition as to the meaning of the presence of Nation forces in Jovian space and their apparent ownership of a Jovian station is worrisome, indeed, but futile to attempt to put any deeper meaning to than that they apparently have one. Basically, until we know more, we dont know anything. So, let us all step back, take a deep breath, and calm ourselves. By all means, continue to ferret out the dangers that are hidden amongst us, continue to watch for and repulse the incursions, and above all, continue to analyze and investigate new information as it arises. But the last thing we need is panic or wild assumtions. Please Pilots, take a moment and think about things.

Gosakumori Noh
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2010.06.26 22:28:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Sylorin
Noh,

Very thought provoking.

I don't know that I'd have let that idea run amok here on IGS, but it does get the brain working.

So what now?




Granted, this is a cumbersome forum for such discussions. There simply don't seem to be superior options. We are like the troupe of blind trying to describe an elephant. With so many touching a different part, we must eventually bring the interpretations together.

There is nothing to stop a war between the empires and Kuvakei. However, if the Talocan and Sleeper technologies do mean to destroy "everything," we end up in a three way conflict. At first, the ancient war machine will benefit one side by weakening the other.

Eventually, however, both Nation and the empires would be forced to stand against the ancients alone. Even if only as a temporary lull in their own hostilities, should it turn out that yes, the ancients are a menace to all, it would be prudent to at some point consider a joint effort to subdue that universal danger.

Jonathan Mcarthur
Caldari
Stargazer Exploration Company
Sundiver Technology Diversified
Posted - 2010.06.26 22:35:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Jonathan Mcarthur on 26/06/2010 22:40:28
It seems likely, though this is a hypothesis nonetheless of a personal intuition, but it seems like that the Jovians may have succumbed to the Nation, just as the Ouria did back in 105. While their are rumors abound that the Nation has the technology to solve many mental illnesses, it seems that they might have a cure for the dreaded Jovian Disease. The subject matter of how Sansha, in whatever form he might inhabit at this time, developed a cure for the Jovian Disease can be looked at his creations.

True Slaves, are more machine than organic humans. I look to them as a bastard child of humanity, something even more shameful than the Gallente Experiments with Advance Artificial Intelligence Agencies in the so called Drone regions. Though, I don't have personal experience with them, however have reports from sources throughout the cluster confirming certain things.

One, True Slaves seem to be more Machine than man.
Two, True Slaves don't seem to have a mental capacity.
Three, they seem to solve most mental ailments.

This is purely subjective and often loose reports founded on loose rumors, not something I would hold my breath on but then again they come from somewhere and all myths have some truth to them.

So to a certain point it feels like, that Sansha might be trading or more accurately forcing the Jove's hand for technologies, such as a Capsule Technologies, Wormhole Creation, Cloning, ect... for whatever plan he has in mind for the rest of New Eden.

One another note, while I agree that recon image displays only a small portion of his fleet that he could possibly possess I doubt he has enough minions to man them all. So it's probably why he's throwing some many armed excursions into Empire space, to not only take people for whatever he lies in store, but also to mobilize his fleet to the maximum extent.

This is all, conjecture based on media reports, private conversations with certain government officials that I can not release there names for obvious reasons and intuition.

Myrkala
Minmatar
Rebel Inc
Posted - 2010.06.26 23:00:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Myrkala on 26/06/2010 23:00:47
Originally by: Master Kuvakei
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
It's Jovian.


No, my dear boy. It's mine.





Not for long, Kuvakei.

this immortal
Posted - 2010.06.26 23:18:00 - [56]
 

Yo Sansha's nation, I'm really happy for you, I'll let you finish, but Mordu's Legion has one of the best fleets of all time. One of the best fleets of all time!

Preden
Minmatar
Estigia Corp.
Posted - 2010.06.26 23:23:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Preden on 26/06/2010 23:31:41
I would like to formally invite the Jovian Empire to open a dialogue with our Ambassadors regarding this recent turn of events.

Whilst I am aware the Nation may have the potential to deliver a "cure" to the Jovians ailment, I would refrain from speculation at this point in time.

I would like to offer my services as an ambassador should a Jovian representative wish to open dialogue with any of our Empires.

Until we have some solid evidence that the Jovian Empire is playing host to the Nation voluntarily then I am of the opinion to treat them as neutral until further developments arise.

EDIT: After much deliberation I would also like to extend diplomatic talks to Master Kuvakeo of True Nation so that we might be able to understand a little clearer his purpose behind the recent events.

Surrah
Supra Tenetur
Posted - 2010.06.26 23:30:00 - [58]
 

Preden, they are occupying a Jovian station. Claiming it even. With no Jovian response, there is only one assumption that can be made; the Jovians and Nation are working together. You should anticipate finding that the Angel Cartel is among their ranks as well. Don't let attacks from that sector come as a surprise.

Axemaster
Posted - 2010.06.26 23:30:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Veron Daerth
Firstly, to address the issue of a titan impacting a planetary surface. Collision between objects in a spatial environment DO NOT calculate the same, since explosions,concussion, and energy propagate differently in space than an atmosphere. I dont have the equations directly handy, but a 10,000 meter diameter iron asteroid traveling at 60m/s (max speed for a stock Avatar) with an overall desity of 8.0grams/cm3 (basic iron asteroid) impacting a temperate world with a standard oxy-nitro atmosphere at an impact angle of 90degrees will release 1,790 megatons of explosive force and will create a crater just shy of 16.5 km across and just over 1 km deep at its epicenter. An Avatar, for comparison, is 13km in length along its long axis, and masses in at 2,278,125 metric tons. You can safely assume its density is much greater than a standard asteroid.


60m/s is very very slow, so I find it extremely hard to believe that you would get any crater at all. More like a big rock pile. I mean, 60m/s is what you get if you drop it from a few stories up. Your analysis is ludicrous.

Preden
Minmatar
Estigia Corp.
Posted - 2010.06.26 23:43:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Surrah
Preden, they are occupying a Jovian station. Claiming it even. With no Jovian response, there is only one assumption that can be made; the Jovians and Nation are working together. You should anticipate finding that the Angel Cartel is among their ranks as well. Don't let attacks from that sector come as a surprise.


Surrah, whilst they may be claiming that station, it does not rule out the possibility that Jovian space may have been invaded. Possibly with this wormhole generation technology we have seen them use. The Nation may have entered Jovian space the same way they been entering ours, and caught the Jovians by surprise.

I believe to hastily declare the Jovians enemies could hinder our situation as opposed to help it.


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