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CCP Fallout

Posted - 2010.06.25 16:20:00 - [1]
 

GMs Ender and Fate update us on the new satisfaction surveys available for petitions in their new dev blog.

Daquaris
Ghosts of Ragnarok
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.06.25 16:24:00 - [2]
 

Neat!

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.06.25 16:40:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Batolemaeus on 25/06/2010 17:04:00
tl;dr: We're surprised that people who just got told that CS doesn't care for ships lost to server problems and the unplayable nature of the game rate our petitions rather low and would like people to stop doing that.

Also:
Quote:
Also, the CSM mentioned a degree of player disconnect with EVE Support. We were initially a bit surprised about this point


Not sure if serious..

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.06.25 16:49:00 - [4]
 

I have never had problem with CS, and CS can't be blamed for server issues.
If there are problem with server, blame either the tech guys or the game design team.

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.06.25 17:08:00 - [5]
 

SQL Protip:

Survey results with a NULL score should be ignored.
Survey results with a ZERO score should be included.

Sacul
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.06.25 17:12:00 - [6]
 

Hey ccp how hard is it to understand that the people who are not satisfied with your customer service will have rage quit and will not fill out your survey in their rage.

Your 33% respondents are the ones happy for the most part, the not so satisfied ones do not fill out surveys.

Maybe take the 33% as a hint that the other 66% are really not satisfied at all.


gtiness
Sick Tight
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.06.25 17:20:00 - [7]
 

It is of course entirely possible to be 'satisfied' with customer service (ie, be treated in a serious, respectful way and have your question answered) while at the same time being completely unhappy with the actual answer.

I'm guessing rather few people actually make this distinction but, I do.

In other words, being nice about telling me the logs show nothing and it's your policy not to reimburse ship losses you had absolutely no control over is a bit of a tarp from a customer satisfaction / reporting perspective.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.06.25 17:25:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 25/06/2010 17:58:33
Quote:
Also, the CSM mentioned a degree of player disconnect with EVE Support. We were initially a bit surprised about this point


Players HTFU the longer they play Eve. Petitions that are never submitted do not receive followup surveys.

Most players don't petition losses due to "fleet lag", as they know what the answer will be. Many players check their logs after something happens and if they don't see evidence of what happened, they don't file a petition (assuming they will get the "nothing in the logs" response). So, you don't see those surveys. The surveys which would show frustration.

The problem with satisfaction surveys is you may not get a good sample of the population.

P.S. Despite the frustration, many players stick around. That's a testament to how much love there is for Eve.

P.P.S. If you really want a more accurate read from players, you should do random sampling polls of the population from time to time.

iP0D
Posted - 2010.06.25 17:28:00 - [9]
 

Wait a minute.

Do I read that correctly? In the rating mechanism followup and processing there is no value or point attached to the masses of people who do not give a rating because they are so frustrated by the petition process or have long thrown in the towel out of anger?

That's like sabotaging your own corporate function evaluation meeting. Makes no sense at all, no wonder things look good on paper, and so different in practice Embarassed

Infinion
Caldari
Awesome Corp
Posted - 2010.06.25 17:35:00 - [10]
 

improving feedback is definitely a great improvement for CS.

I would like to suggest that when a petition is closed, players should be prompted to rate the petition instead of manually rating.
In regards to the old rating system, players who are satisfied with the resolution of their petition will more likely go out of their way to provide feedback, whereas the ragequit/angry/unsatisfied players will more likely stop caring about the petition and ignore it altogether instead of following up.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.25 17:43:00 - [11]
 

Now, hang on, are we talking about Customer Service or are we talking about Developer Communication? Because the two are linked, but they are very, very different things.

Customer Service is a tricky thing. The thing is, the kind of people who are displeased with Customer Service don't use customer service. It's why it's often hard to get a feel for what's causing problems within a virtual world; The players who leave don't tell you why because they've got no attachment. They just leave. The people screaming on the forums about how they're going to leave are your die hard fans. They love you. Which brings me neatly to my next point.

Developer Communication follows one simple rule: More Is Better. Always. Communicate all the time, forever, day and night. We want to know every little detail about everything that's happening every moment of every day. If you increment a value in a database, by god do we want to know. We want to sit in on your brainstorming sessions. We want to talk to every one of you, personally. You will not possibly be able to fulfill these expectations, and no matter how hard you try, people will complain that you're not communicating enough.

But the players will still love you for it, and you'll look like gods next to the competition.

Noran Ferah
Red Sky Morning
Posted - 2010.06.25 17:44:00 - [12]
 

There should be prizes for filling out the survey, if the GM actually had to fix something.


Just sayin...

Clb
The Intersect
Posted - 2010.06.25 17:55:00 - [13]
 

Does your "high level of satisfaction" include people who can't be ****ed filling in a survey that no one will read?

I don't know how many tickets I have where, after the GM responded with irrelevant canned responses, I gave up trying and ignored it. Few days later a survey comes in, which I also ignore because 1) no one reads them, 2) what account is it for? the email doesn't say and 3) the entire web-frontend for EVE is a complete mess and I can't be bothered wrestling with it to give some dopey GM a bad score since it will make no difference at all.

You can use whatever stats you like, face it; EVE support sucks. Fix it. Rather than telling ****ed off customers how great it is.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.06.25 18:05:00 - [14]
 

I've found the "rate your petition" thingy to be somewhat random, sometimes I've received notification about it, sometimes not. Unless ofc I manually go in to each petition and rate it.

But the mail comes on some petitions and some not.

Either way looking forward to see work being done on CS.

/c

Infinion
Caldari
Awesome Corp
Posted - 2010.06.25 18:07:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Infinion on 25/06/2010 18:09:32
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Now, hang on, are we talking about Customer Service or are we talking about Developer Communication? Because the two are linked, but they are very, very different things.

Customer Service is a tricky thing. The thing is, the kind of people who are displeased with Customer Service don't use customer service. It's why it's often hard to get a feel for what's causing problems within a virtual world; The players who leave don't tell you why because they've got no attachment. They just leave. The people screaming on the forums about how they're going to leave are your die hard fans. They love you. Which brings me neatly to my next point.

Developer Communication follows one simple rule: More Is Better. Always. Communicate all the time, forever, day and night. We want to know every little detail about everything that's happening every moment of every day. If you increment a value in a database, by god do we want to know. We want to sit in on your brainstorming sessions. We want to talk to every one of you, personally. You will not possibly be able to fulfill these expectations, and no matter how hard you try, people will complain that you're not communicating enough.

But the players will still love you for it, and you'll look like gods next to the competition.


Regarding Developer Communication, the most important issue I feel needs to be addressed is the lack of two-way communication between players and devs in this huge virtual universe. The best chance at getting the attention of a dev is in the Features and Ideas part of the eve-o forums which we are frequently directed to. And while I have no doubt that devs frequently read that forum section for new ideas, there is no presence that shows that issues and ideas are being heard.

Menellaix
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.06.25 18:11:00 - [16]
 

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1337682

^^^
We still don't know what happened, or if CCP even cares what happened.
Petition responses are not the only feedback we expect wrt customer support.

Infinion
Caldari
Awesome Corp
Posted - 2010.06.25 18:17:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Chribba
I've found the "rate your petition" thingy to be somewhat random, sometimes I've received notification about it, sometimes not. Unless ofc I manually go in to each petition and rate it.

But the mail comes on some petitions and some not.

Either way looking forward to see work being done on CS.

/c


I have rarely, if never, received a survey notification. I have always rated manually, so it would most likely increase the number of surveys filled out if these "rate your petition" notifications were more systematic rather than random

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.06.25 18:24:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Ban Doga on 25/06/2010 18:24:12
That the average of the rating differs from the actually perceived quality is only surprising when you expect that every petition has the same relevance.

1,000 "question" petitions that get resolved quickly and cleanly do not outweight a single "WTF, I lost my ship due to being stuck and you won't reimburse me?!" petition.

Telling players to create a petition for each and every problem they might have - no matter how small or insignificant - is really ruining any averages you might wanna calculate afterwards.

Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention
Middle of Nowhere
Posted - 2010.06.25 18:39:00 - [19]
 

I have rated a petition once, which caused it to reopen, which resulted in me simply deleting it when I needed that petition slot, so you never received the rating. I never bothered to rate again.

Apart from that I never had issues with GMs, their responses to issues are as random as those to bug reports, but at least they always came across as at least trying/wanting to help (other than on bug reports). Many of the (few) issues I petitioned for so far could however not be solved by the GMs since they apparently did not have the tools available they would have needed to help out.

Akira Nailo
Minmatar
Instapop Industries
Amici Noctis
Posted - 2010.06.25 18:45:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Akira Nailo on 25/06/2010 18:48:32
Please the Customer service in this game is a joke at the very best. If you send a petition in you always get the same canned response. We did not detect any abnormalities in our system we can not help you. I have filed out at least 6 or 7 and everyone has the same answer. The reason there is a distance between the gm's and the users is because they are useless, rude, and are there only for to feel like there is customer service. All ccp cares is about promoting the game, and do not care if you lose something it took you 3 months to make due to a glitch in game or a bug. All they care is that you play for months.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2010.06.25 19:48:00 - [21]
 

Here's the reality. People are satisfied when they get a reply back that they want.

Generally speaking petition-satisfaction is happening moreso with the petitions related to ship losses and such. Ive made a fair share of petitions over practically every petition category. All the petitions which **** me off are in ship reimbursement area.

1. In empire I was at war and I just moving around in a pod. Inty was following me but never really could catch me. I get to a gate. It jumps but im not goin anywhere. Click jump couple more times. "Session change in progress" Chat channels are still going. Inty catches up. Starts shooting me. Still "Session change in progress"... I lose pod.

I petition though they are only reimbursing for value of clone. I had no implants. Why even deny it... 100k isk is nothing.

"Logs show nothing" MY LOGS SURE THE **** DO

2. I had plain blackbird. It's meh. The enemy got a nice sniper position on us. I was aligned to planet using align button. It was aimed dead center of planet. When I hit warp it drops to 0m/s and realigns before warping and it dies. The logs really did show nothing. It gets reimbursed... huh...


3. Rattlesnake boost... so i build myself like 3bil isk passive rattlesnake. It passively tanks like 2500dps omni.Thing would never die to lvl 4 mission. It did a handful of missions no problem.

Except the passive shield bug happens which happens on sisi all the time. Basically shields dont recharge but they appear to be 100% on ur screen. Which with my ship... they are like 95%+ anyhow so you dont notice but suddenly the damage is hitting your armor. Which with passive shield tanks... you immediately pop.


THE LOGS SHOW NOTHING

Sorry but with computers... if something isnt working correctly... the logs likely arent working correctly. I'm in IT with windows and a good 1/3 of problems never show up in the logs.

Saying no to reimbursement of that ship ****es me off to no end and just makes me not want to play.

Cresalle
Posted - 2010.06.25 19:49:00 - [22]
 

Transparency is not an appropriate solution for systematic incompetence. The problem with the petition system is not that CS people aren't doing the work. The problem with the petition system is that the people who arm them with the necessary tools to do their job aren't doing the work.

You need to create a more effective logging and moderation system for them to use. You know... One that will actually detect and be able to fix problems that occur. I have no problem with the CS staff, and frankly I don't think anyone else does either. It's not like they cuss me out for filing a petition or something (although that would be hilarious).

The problem is that it usually takes a long time for them to be able to figure out wtf EVE has done and htf they're going to fix it. Seems to me that if they had better tools then petitions would be answered faster and more effectively, which would reduce the number of active petitions and result in clearer metrics in terms of game-oriented problems rather than butthurt-oriented problems. IMHO this would be a far superior tool for creating happy customers.

The best thing you can do for your customer is to provide them with a better product, not a better survey.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.06.25 19:57:00 - [23]
 

It's really hard to have anything positive to say about Eve customer service between the "our logs show nothing" and "we can't reimburse your corp for the loss of assets during a PROVABLE ACCOUNT THEFT (billions worth of assets that were stolen, refined, and minerals sold, and the ISK sent to a certain NC member). Oh, but here's the 500 mil that they stole from the corp wallet."

To be more constructive: make your logs show something... and when people get ****ed by account theft can you *please* actually reimburse the crap?

-Liang

Kruzenshtern
Aeria Gloris Inc
UN1CUM
Posted - 2010.06.25 20:18:00 - [24]
 

I would like to point out the most obvious thing that prevents me from filling out these surveys (and believe me, I do want to help). See, I have more than one account, and, unfortunately, more or less regular, though not too frequent, reasons to file petitions. Some of these petitions are responded to quickly by knowledgeable people, with their responses e-mailed to me in notification e-mails. When that happens, I try my best to thank them and to fill in a survey. However, some of my petitions get closed silently, or maybe with some responses which for unknown reasons fail to reach my mailbox (and yes I check my spam folder). Then, when I get a request for survey out of the blue, I usually can't be bothered to go and rummage through the petitions on multiple accounts to try and figure out what the request is actually about.

So my suggestion is this:

- fix the petition notification system so it ALWAYS lets me know what is happening
- make sure it is not possible to close a petition silently without notice to originator
- do include an exact reference to the petition in question; it's okay if you do not want to disclose the relevant character name in an e-mail, use an abstract id number or something else, but do not transfer the burden of identification to the player
- do include the latest GM response or outcome for the particular petition

Jesho
Minmatar
Swedish Aerospace Inc
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2010.06.25 20:56:00 - [25]
 

one thing about the petition rating system that's been bugging me all the time (and the reason for not using it at all) is that there is no indication of which end of the scale is good and which end is bad.

i know this is probably considered obvious but all surveys have this so noone accidentally rates it bad when it supposed to be good and vice versa.

all that's needed is a text above the 0 and 10

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.25 21:58:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 25/06/2010 21:58:51
If you are really serious about improving customer support, then reverse the surveys. Ask your GM about how they would rate the petitions they receive.

Here is the prototype version of a new system: The petitions are answered by the GM team and the results send back to the players.

5 = nice description, friendly player. I would love to help him again with any problem.
4 = a bit of whiner, but deserves help.
3 = barely worth the time reading this 5hit
2 = I am not getting paid enough for this, horrible spelling and grammar
1 = the only things that can help this petitioner are fresh air and getting laid
0 = I wish I could kill him... I wish I could kill him...

There you go, I am sure these new surveys will drastically improve the morale of your GM team as well as their productivity. YARRRR!!

Nooto
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.06.25 22:22:00 - [27]
 

you madam, you won this thread Very Happy

thatbloke
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.25 23:26:00 - [28]
 

I browse these forums quite regularly and I hate to say it but every day I see a significant number of posts from people who seem to have been waiting far too long for their petitions to have been resolved satisfactorily - while this is only anecdotal in and of itself, it is a worrying trend that seems to be becoming more and more popular.

This is about the number of threads I see where someone posts about an issue, the first reply from someone says "send a petition" and said person says "oh I already did X number of hours ago" - alot of these issues are game-breaking for people, and while I can understand that not every petition can be solved in 5 minutes with a single reply, it seems that more *could* be being done, at least in the eyes of the players that seem to be posting these threads.

I myself have never had to even submit a petition for anything, so I really cannot comment on personal experience - but without wanting to set a precedent, if you have people posting that they can't even play a game that they are paying REAL MONEY for, saying that they have already submitted a petition, then I see this as massively game-breaking and needing to be way more urgently treated than is currently being done (at least according to the number of forum threads I have seen on such issues recently).

Addendum: I may have had a little bit of Rum before posting this :D

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.06.26 00:40:00 - [29]
 

Thought I'd take this at face value and go back and rate my last couple of petitions. Only I find they are all set to 9 already...

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

I did not fill these in. If this is how they're being counted in your results then I'm not surprised you think you're doing well. If these aren't being counted yet but they are the default options I'm given now I'm rating the petition then can you explain why the default of 9 was chosen and how it never occured to you how biased... nay dishonest this would look to players?

(I haven't now rated afterall, I lost the will.)


Anyway what I originally wanted to post was this, since it's a rare opportunity for me to offer constructive-criticism to CS instead of just *****ing.

Originally by: GM Fate
GMs file a large number of defects and a substantial percentage of wonky game functionality is discovered and pushed through the development pipelines by the Support department

A common complaint is that GMs will brickwall a petition and just tell the player to file a bugreport, since the issue is or might be a bug. And usually these complaints end with "I didn't bother to bugreport it". It's a huge turnoff to get told effectively it's not CS's problem and you have to reexplain your issue all over again in a bugreport. I understand why it's this way since petitions and bugreports are handled by different systems, plus you have a policy that bugs don't impact petitions (a completely nuts policy obviously, but that's a different complaint), but anyway it's not conducive to getting bugs fixed or to making players satisifed.

So if you really are already as heavily involved in filing defects as you say you are, could it be an idea for you to try to work with the player to morph their petition into a bugreport, instead of dropping the ball and expecting them to start again? Perhaps have the GM pull up a basic bugreport template and copy/paste relevant parts of the player's petition into it where they've already explained the bug, then reply it back to them and ask them to make any changes/additions, then have the GM ultimately responsible for making sure the bugreport gets submitted.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2010.06.26 00:42:00 - [30]
 

Customers who don't have faith in the Customer Service, won't take time filling in surveys (even if it's just 1-4 rating clicks). They will argue "what for?" and doubt it has effect.

That's why your ratings are skewed, CCP. Customers who care fill in the surveys, participate, voice their opinions etc.

I have about zero faith in CSM, but either case, you/CCP should listen to them. There's alot of players who are unhappy with CCP's customer relations (but without voicing their opinion). From petitions, to dialogue through forums and devblogs, to stuff like the CSM, etc.

If you're really interested in hearing the players, CCP, you really should re-read your own blog and ask yourselves why there's a need for CSM to even bring up this subject, when your statistics tell you otherwise. Is it not so that you fail in communication then? Then ask yourselves why people are mad at many dev blogs, an anger that then disappear when your intentions become clear? Is it not so that you fail in communications then?

And all the times you change your mind, with stuff in development, with inconsistency in petition responses, with non-dialogue instant decisions (like the removed warp disruption bubbles posted in CAOD, just one of many examples), or the cases where you don't respond at all (like the titans that magicly re-spawned after being killed, also a big post on CAOD atm), is it not so that you fail in communications?

I think the answer is pretty clear. Your game is great, customers love it, but they misunderstand you and you misunderstand them all the time. Obviously they'll ignore any kind of surveys you do, since you'll mis-read them anyway. If you read them. (I don't believe you do, personally, but that's how people will feel about it).

Are you serious about the dev blog? Then you could commit. Remove CSM and introduce a customer relations representative, someone schooled in how to keep a dialogue between a company, the public, (and even press related issues). That'd change players perception of your company, radicly.


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