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blankseplocked EvE Science in need of review: jumpgate technology backstory
 
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Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2010.06.21 07:19:00 - [1]
 

So... several people cite the interstellar travel article, except for the fact that its widely inaccurate to how we see it work ingame, present date.

what i refer to specifically, is this:


http://www.eveonline.com/background/jump/jump_03.asp
Quote:
3 - The principles of jump gate technology. Jump gates are built around artificial wormholes, created by exploiting gravitational resonances found in binary systems. This resonance is as a friction between gravitational waves of stellar objects, the more massive the objects, the stronger the resonance between them. Positions of planets in a solar system, as well as the complex structure of dust rings around heavy planets illustrate this resonance.

In binary systems there exists strong resonance phenomenons, where the gravitational field of two stars in a stable binary formation would interfere with each other, like ripples from two wave sources. These stable wave patterns come in a succession of standing wave patterns, similar to those created on a guitar string. The strongest resonance is the 1:1 resonance (the first harmonic, so to speak), with two stationary node points situated in the center of each of the two stars. The second strongest resonance is the 1:2 resonance (the second harmonic), where an additional stationary node point appears in the field exactly mid-way between the stars (if of equal mass), and so on for successive resonances.


EvE ingame as it is... doesnt posses many actual binary systems.

would CCP care to comment on this or can we get this discrepency explained to us?

maybe that part specifically should be re-written, or deleted entirely?

Nikita Alterana
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2010.06.21 07:26:00 - [2]
 

CCP, do the responsible thing, rewrite your science articles to fit the universe they are in.

Jake Dreadmore
Caldari
JotunHeim Hird
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2010.06.21 07:52:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Myxx

EvE ingame as it is... doesnt posses many actual binary systems.



Prove it, or at the very least elaborate. YARRRR!!

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2010.06.21 09:19:00 - [4]
 

Sigh... okay, here we go again.

The empires in New Eden have artificial gravity manipulation technology, allowing them to construct stuff like linear ship and station decks, inertial dampeners, tractor beams, etc. They have the technology to create directional gravity fields in highly contained spaces (allowing people to walk on the deck plating of a spaceship without the artificial gravity causing a gravity well radiating in all directions forever), and the technology to pinpoint that force perfectly on a target a certain distance away. These things demonstrate an incredibly sophisticated mastery of the technology.

Now, the gravitational harmonic waves of two celestial bodies orbiting each other is going to be far less that the pinpoint/directional attractive force that the empires can produce artificially. Ergo, they can be reproduced by technological means.

Thus, stargates can be built to produce their own gravitational harmonics.

Katrina Bekers
Gallente
Fighters Squadron
Posted - 2010.06.21 10:02:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Jake Dreadmore
Prove it, or at the very least elaborate. YARRRR!!


In a binary system, the two stars are orbiting around a common mass center, and thus are so damn close (compared to any "background starbox"), that you'd see the twin star extremely brilliant in the background.

Like a "Red Giant" featured in some w-space systems.

While in practice you see your own system star, and all the other stars roughly the same "dots on a canvas" in background.

Indika Truan
Posted - 2010.06.21 11:42:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Indika Truan on 21/06/2010 11:48:02
Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai
Thus, stargates can be built to produce their own gravitational harmonics.

Maybe, but this still contradicts the article, which makes no mention of such technology but instead states:
Quote:
There are several strict limitations on jump gate travel. First of all, jump gates can only be constructed in systems with two or more suns, because of the resonance nodes. This effectively makes one in every three systems ineligible for jump gate construction.

Emphasis mine.

Also, if the harmonic-producing jumpgates do exist, then they are probably a relatively recent advancement. Early jumpgates would probably not have such technology, and therefore at very least, we would expect several systems in Empire space to be binary systems, but to my knowledge, none appear as such.

The explanation I prefer is that many (all?) systems are indeed binary systems, but it's just not obvious from the way they are depicted in game. The best locations for stargate construction would be on naturally occurring resonance nodes, which are found 1/2 or 1/3 of the distance between the two suns if they are of equal mass. However, if the primary sun is much more massive than the other, it stands to reason that the gates would be built much closer to the more massive sun. The companion sun might appear only as a bright star if you're within ~40 AU of the primary star (the companion star could be thousands of AU away).

Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2010.06.21 12:02:00 - [7]
 

I think it's all because from a graphics and progaming view mixing single and binary systems would be a pain in the butt.

Binarys are actually very common in real life. Maybe we can say that we don't intereact with them much because they lack any habitable worlds and the increased inner-system gravity and solar radiation activity makes them unpopular with people?


Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.06.21 12:13:00 - [8]
 

Technology has moved on. Old scientific papers that are no longer update should not be rewritten or updated. At most they should have a date and perhaps pointing to a new up-to-date paper. But keep the old papers.

Technology has changed a lot in Eve. Just look at jump clones and jump drives.

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2010.06.21 17:29:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Technology has moved on. Old scientific papers that are no longer update should not be rewritten or updated. At most they should have a date and perhaps pointing to a new up-to-date paper. But keep the old papers.

Technology has changed a lot in Eve. Just look at jump clones and jump drives.



Thats what im trying to get - an updated, relevant article for people to cite instead of that ancient thing.

I'm pretty convinced it was written pre-launch.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.06.21 19:52:00 - [10]
 

I can confirm it was pre-launch. I remember reading those all that time ago.

Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Emminent Terraforming
O.G.-Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.22 07:03:00 - [11]
 

just as we will never really know if anyone lives on them and if they are run like an aircraft control tower. as in can in lore ships arrive and depart at the same time like the DS9 wormhole or are Stargates more like Stargate and that its one way and then has to be reset to go back the other way.

some aspects like not having to fly into the structure and fly out of it are of course likely in place for fluid gameplay.

id of course imagine that being assigned to work on a stargate in some systems is akin to being sent to Alaska to watch radar.

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
Posted - 2010.06.22 08:30:00 - [12]
 

At least the Deklein region description explicitly states that the stargates are manned.
Quote:
Like a skeletal finger pointing out toward the void, Deklein is a narrow band of stars loosely connected by some of the most ancient gates outside of empire space. The region is so remote, that some of the gates remain the ones found in the original explorations. While in most regions gate crews swap out every five years or so, in Deklein some of these ancient gates have been run by the same family for hundreds of years.

These families have intricate knowledge of their stargates and the network their connected too, it was once the practice that aspiring gatemen would travel to Deklein to do their year and come back “Deklein trained” – an title of some honor which would almost guarantee them a chief gate operator position… of course, some would never return.

With the advent of heavy Gurista presence in the area this practice ceased, although the families still exist, keeping the gate network running and passing on their extensive knowledge to any gate operator crazy enough to run the gauntlet of dangers to reach them.


Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Emminent Terraforming
O.G.-Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.22 20:26:00 - [13]
 

that kinda sounds like the old New England lighthouse keeper. they could live there almost their whole life.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.22 21:28:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker
that kinda sounds like the old New England lighthouse keeper. they could live there almost their whole life.


The Stargates in EVE also act as communication relays, but in an universe full of crazy people the stargate people probably still able to stand out.

In such a location you have a lot of time to build any ship out of lego pieces, or finally have time to complete a one million and one pieces puzzle.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.06.23 06:21:00 - [15]
 

Star gates are not only manned but in the Eon chronicles it talks about how Star gates make peaceful Fedo very aggressive if they go though to many jumps and it hints star gates effect everyone. We already know Pod pilots minds are changed to withstand the effects and both pod pilots and normal people have to take drugs to use star gates to ward off the effects.

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2010.06.24 18:12:00 - [16]
 

The forums burped, as you may have noticed, so I'm reposting yesterday's replies here again:

I'd love for those of us in CCP who care about this stuff* to have the time to re-do it, because it does need updating. Things like this are hard to argue for when the same resources can create other content that has a much wider appeal and larger impact.

* And there's a whole lot, not just the usual suspects you might think, but programmers, artists and even one of our resident chefs.

Having said that, however, it's worth noting that this doesn't mean it won't happen, just that it isn't likely to happen in-house. It's the sort of project I can see us handing off to one of our more established freelance writers, so it's plausible that the scientific articles/short stories could be revisited that way instead. We've actually contracted the creation of new, high-level PF along these lines just recently, including one scientific article that's on its way, so ... yeah, it's possible.

I'll take it up with CCP Jasonitas (who is our fearless leader on all things freelancer) and the rest of the storyline guys, and see what people think about possibly revisiting extant stuff before we contract anything new (assuming we even had anything further in plan for the immediate future).

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2010.06.24 18:13:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: "Katrina Bekers
Uh.

What happened to Mercury? It seems to it can be the right (*) tool for the job.

(*) - Cheap, motivated, competent. That is, if the team is still... alive...


Firstly, Mercury is very much alive, and I agree entirely on the motivated and competent part, too.

To answer your question, we can use them, but what I'm saying (and this is just my personal opinion here) is that the best way to approach this would probably be as a more internalized project, with a contracted writer (who could be a Mercury writer also, that's happened before) with a set deadline and accountability for it, as well as increased (i.e. financial) incentive to reach that deadline. Put simply, "we'd wanna do it proper."

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2010.06.24 19:59:00 - [18]
 

omgawesome.

Katrina Bekers
Gallente
Fighters Squadron
Posted - 2010.06.24 22:08:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Firstly, Mercury is very much alive, and I agree entirely on the motivated and competent part, too.

First, thank you for your salvaging job on my post. Much appreciated.

Second, glad to know (M) is still with us. They have a damn cool corp ticker!
Quote:
Put simply, "we'd wanna do it proper."

Yes, but...

Remember that Computer Science is not about doing the perfect job in an infinite time, but an acceptably good one in a reasonable timeframe.

With this distilled wisdom sputtered out, I agree with what Myxx said! Very Happy

Nikita Alterana
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2010.06.24 22:20:00 - [20]
 

Dropbear I want to work for Mercury, I've been writing for ever and I'd really, really, really love to write for eve, can you put in a good word for me? plzplzplzplz?

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.06.25 02:37:00 - [21]
 

Hire me, and I will unleash horrors never before imagined YARRRR!!

Andreus LeHane
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2010.06.25 05:04:00 - [22]
 

I've always thought that stargates both look more like, and, looking at the effects, seem to function more like space catapults than wormhole generators. All the gates pre-Quantum Rise except for the Amarrian gate (which is now the Amarr Constellation gate) looked far more like the ancient acceleration gates than wormhole portals. Post Quantum-Rise, we have a lot more gate models, but apart from the Minmatar System gate and possibly the Amarr System and Caldari Region gates, all of them look far more like accelerators than portals. Particularly egregious examples of this are the Gallente System, Constellation and Region gates, the Caldari System gate, the Minmatar Constellation and Border gates, and particularly the Caldari Border gate, which looks almost exactly like an acceleration gate, except one big enough to fling capital ships about.

There's also the visual effect that occurs when you use a stargate, which looks much more like a projection of energy than a wormhole opening. Mass relays in the Mass Effect series work much more like space catapults than stargates, creating a "track" of warped space through which a ship using it is shot. The effect looks like this in the first game and this in the second - looks and sounds quite familiar, no? Given that EVE was around for a number of years before Mass Effect, I would go so far as to say that the artistic style and visual effects of mass relays were directly inspired by EVE, which should tell you something about the way in which stargates in EVE appear to behave.

I think them being more akin to space catapults than portals also neatly explains why you need multiple stargates per system and why they sometimes turn up in odd positions - if a stargate is both a catapult and a receiving station, there's no effective way you could make it receive and send ships to stars it wasn't pointing at, and you might need to put it in an odd place to get a clear shot at the receiving gate on the other end. It also explains why stargates can choose not to let you through if you've got a 60-second aggro timer. If a stargate is constantly holding a wormhole open, then there's no legitimate reason why a pilot could not just fly into the wormhole, but if it's a catapult, traffic control could simply refuse to boost your ship until your aggro timer runs out.

Katrina Bekers
Gallente
Fighters Squadron
Posted - 2010.06.25 08:40:00 - [23]
 

Mercury is accepting applicants. (Source)

Also take a peek at the Volunteer Program at large.

And of course, the applications themselves.
___

Back on the subject. Did you notice that all stargates "point" to the same direction? It's easy to check with the Tactical Overlay. They are all aligned to the same "north", so they don't actually "sling" you in the direction of another star system, but rather dematerialize you always along the same celestial axis.

While I'm on the catapult fan camp, this detail leaves at least a doubt about the wormhole nature of stargates.

Andreus LeHane
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2010.06.25 17:02:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Katrina Bekers
Back on the subject. Did you notice that all stargates "point" to the same direction? It's easy to check with the Tactical Overlay. They are all aligned to the same "north", so they don't actually "sling" you in the direction of another star system, but rather dematerialize you always along the same celestial axis.

While I'm on the catapult fan camp, this detail leaves at least a doubt about the wormhole nature of stargates.


That's largely unsurprising, given that quite a lot of things in EVE besides the stargates sit on the same plane; stations might face different directions but they are NEVER tilted at an angle - you'll never find a Caldari mining station, for instance, that has its drilling beam projectors pointed towards a planet or moon. I'm not sure whether this is a conscious design decision or simply the way the universe was generated.


 

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