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blankseplocked What is the one true weakness of minmatar ships?
 
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Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.06.22 03:10:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/06/2010 03:09:55
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin

You guys posting this argument that Minmatar do "theorycrafted"-dps realize that ie. a vagabond can start doing damage at around 40km and still have very nice tracking, whereas ships without the falloff can do jack-all damage at that distance (which is why kiting is so great for Minmatar). It doesn't really matter if you do not do max theoretical dps when your enemy isn't doing any dps at all back at you.



The ability to do minuscule amounts of damage at range "nobody can return fire" is really rather useless - mostly because fights either don't happen there or are largely meaningless. If they aren't tackled, there's no point... and if they are tackled you should probably get into an engagement range that makes sense. I mean really, the damage output from a Hurricane at 40km is almost entirely from drones - and lots of ships have those. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
I gladly fly Minmatar and have a 425mm Cynabal do nice damage at 40+km against any Gallente sub-capship. Because they simply cannot hit me unless maybe they field an Arazu/Lachesis that manages to scram me before I notice it.


The Cynabal is something of an anomaly, but I'll assume you'd like to restrict the conversation to the Vagabond. Yeah, the Vagabond's great - a drone bay and room for a neut. But... the thing its best at isn't damage but running away. But hey, I'm glad you like flying Minmatar - it took a lot of work to make them not useless.

Quote:
That's the good thing about being multi-raced, that I gladly can field these ships. :P


Yeah, I really like being able to fly almost anything subcap with good skills too. Really opens your options up! Oddly enough, I tend to fly Amarr.

-Liang

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.06.22 04:17:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Demolishar
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/06/2010 16:44:39
Quote:

Minmatar ships have just as much tank as anything else you shove a 1600mm plate on



Sure, you can also shove a 50mm plate on a Ferrari, it'll be like a tank. Nevermind it won't do its supposed unique function of being fast and agile.
And then? You put a plate ofc you have to forget damage mods and then you get what? A low damage, average tank, not-agile anymore piece of trash?



The 1600mm plated rupture is not considered best in it's class at all, is it? For doing 450 dps, with 35,000 ehp, and full tackle, and neuts, and reasonably good speed...
Oh, and I forgot that just because the plated Hurricane out-damages, out-tanks, and out-utilities (you know what I mean) it's nearest equivalent ship - the plated Harbinger, that makes it a low damage, average tank, piece of trash Rolling Eyes

Minmatar isn't just the Vagabond, you know...


Reasonably good speed with webs that have to be in range of the other guys webs to use?

Brilliant.

1Ekrid1
Posted - 2010.06.22 05:32:00 - [153]
 

Edited by: 1Ekrid1 on 22/06/2010 05:34:01
Originally by: 1Ekrid1
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Watching AT8, I was thinking:

Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones.
Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps.
Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types.

Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue.

What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)?


Their weakness is supposed to be paper thin tanks, with their tanking ability smaller sig and faster speed compared to other races, from frigs vs frigs, to cruiser vs cruiser, to BS vs BS. This scaling broke down because speed got a nerf, and then minmatar were paper thin floating killmails, so they got HP buffed, thus unbalancing them considering how they are so offensively good.


Their Optimal and falloff;

Optimal is supposed to be the point whre you do the most hits, Optimal + tracking gets you higher hits if the enemy is closer, optimal + falloff gets you more hits as the target gets farther away. They're supposed to have crappy optimal, but great falloff, this is supposed to lead to a lower overall chance of hitting compared to other races, but a slower degradation in hitting ability over 1000's of meters beyond falloff.

This also has proven untrue due to the fact that tracking trumps all and they gave outrageous tracking to drones and ACs and Arties, meaning the supposed weaknesses these mechanisms are supposed to have dont actually work due to a flaw in balancing the other stats.


now, two people did give agreement to this, so when reading things like "they have crappy tracking and blah blah I dont read stats" I will just point this out.

I took these samples:

125mm gatling auto - acc falloff 4000, opt 800, Trk .417
Gatling pulse laser - acc falloff 500, opt 4000, Trk .308125

250mm artillery can - acc falloff 8750, opt 8050, Trk .0825
Dual Light beam las - acc falloff 3000, opt 8750, Trk .13

200mm automa cannon - acc falloff 4800, opt 1000, Trk .315
Medium pulse laser - acc falloff 500, opt 4000, Trk .308125

Looking at all these, it is surmized that ACs have better tracking than lasers, but artillery has worse superficially, but on a tracking/meter-range basis the arties are penalized less than the laser beams whi. I made sure Im comparing the weapons in the same class here, such as gatling to gatling, and largest long range to largest long range. what this shows is that where tracking is worse, artillery, they have far superioer rrange because of the falloff.

Remember that at falloff, you are that distance from Optimal, and hit for 50% of the time, or for 50% reduced damage over time, however you want to see it. You can go double your falloff from optimal before your hit percentage drops to zero.

How does this affect the guns? Tracking. If you have low tracking and very long range, you hit less as ships move faster. Otherwise if you have high tracking at long range, you continue to hit as well. that means ACs have huge advantage over pulse lasers. Their total range is farther than lasers, and their ability to track and hit out at those ranges is farther.

so lower tracking and a steep decline in hitting percentage from falloff work together to help hit less and less hard, whereas a low degrade from optimal and high tracking work together to help hit more often and for more damage out at those "excess" ranges.

and still, the artillery has greater amount of tracking per meter given to it compared to laser beams, on a .01 tracking per so-many-meters-out-you-can-hit basis.

in summation, they're capless, can change damage type, have greater range, have less drastic loss of damage over excess range, and have better tracking for their ranges.

thats why everyone uses them for solo pvp. that and being faster ships with a slot layout that makes them able to do anything

StainLessStealRat
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.06.22 05:51:00 - [154]
 

Poor Tanks

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2010.06.22 06:39:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: 1Ekrid1


You know (i use that word loosely) a lot for being 8 days old.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Nooma K'Larr
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.06.22 07:53:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Tsukiko Ishida
When flown too close to the sun, the duct tape begins to fall off.


I've noticed that.ugh

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2010.06.22 08:45:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)?


WD40

Killclone
Posted - 2010.06.22 09:41:00 - [158]
 

can you stop making minmatar the FOTM

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2010.06.22 11:21:00 - [159]
 

The anwser is ductape offcourse.

Their ships come apart just when u run out of it.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2010.06.22 11:31:00 - [160]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 22/06/2010 11:36:34
Minmatar are simply the best for small gang/solo stuff, and some of their ships are extremely competitive for gangs as well.

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 22/06/2010 11:31:40
Originally by: Demolishar
No, I said Minmatar have a monopoly in GOOD kiting ships. The Curse is a passable kiter, but far from good. But since I can't fly Minmatar, and I don't like training FOTM... Neutral


Ha ha. Actually... the Curse is definitely better then a Vagabond in that respect. It doesn't take that much speed to kite someone who has zero capacitor to fire up MWD. Or maybe you fit 0 neutralizers on your curse and all HMLs and rest salvagers?

If you wanted to whine about something, you definitely should not be whining about the Curse.

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Gallente will still (today) stand up and **** any Minnie ship that wanders too close


Vs shield buffer fits, yes, vs plated Minmatar fits... no.

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2010.06.22 16:31:00 - [161]
 

IMHO the strengths of Minmatar are well known. The purpose of their design is to control the battlefield, using speed and bonused webs, so they engage at whatever range is worse for their enemy. (Big falloff range means that the minmatar ships themselves can be effective at a variety of ranges, whatever's worse for the enemy.)

You beat a Minmatar ship by taking away his ability to control the battlefield -- i.e., tackling him and holding him down where he doesn't want to be, then laying on the DPS. So yes, usually the way to beat a Minmatar ship is to bring another Minmatar ship with a better pilot, plus lots of DPS/ewar to kill him once tackled.

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.06.22 17:13:00 - [162]
 

...bubblegum and duct tape. Wink




1Ekrid1
Posted - 2010.06.22 22:11:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: 1Ekrid1


You know (i use that word loosely) a lot for being 8 days old.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.




you seem to mistake being able to right click modules with "knowledge". Im thinking you are impressed that I know how to fin d module info? your picture, that is you? A real paper bagger..

Balsak
Minmatar
Friends of Bigfoot
Posted - 2010.06.22 22:24:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: 1Ekrid1

you seem to mistake being able to right click modules with "knowledge". Im thinking you are impressed that I know how to fin d module info? your picture, that is you? A real paper bagger..


You seem to mistake being able to right click and read a modules info with knowing how it all works in practice rather than theory.

RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Black Viper Nomads
Posted - 2010.06.22 23:57:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker


You beat a Minmatar ship by taking away his ability to control the battlefield -- i.e., nerfing webs and speed mods and implants and still lolCaldari pilots complain


Fixed...somewhat tongue in cheek ugh


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