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Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.06.21 18:52:00 - [121]
 

Quote:

[Rupture, gank]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II

Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Hammerhead II x1
Hobgoblin II x4

Tah dah, ok it's slightly less then 35k, one 3% implant will get you there pretty easily



Yeah this does a lot of damage.... at it's 1.4km optimal range.... And given the pretty dam slow top speed of it the chance of it getting that close and staying there are practically nil. You'll most likely spend most of the battle doing sub 100dps damage.


Minmatar are good ships in the hands of experienced pilots, just not better than the other races.
Minmatar have to reinforce their lesser buffer tank for pvp with speed to get as good or better than than the other races, when we get caught we die a lot quicker however. You can put out some great EFT fits that look fantasic on paper like that, try em out in combat, they don't work.

Minmatar are about controlling range/transversal to get that extra tank the other races have back, learn to compensate for that (there are a lot of tactics that do it, a lot don't even involve more modules!) and you'd have no problems against them.

Demolishar
Posted - 2010.06.21 19:05:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Rhinanna
Quote:

[Rupture, gank]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II

Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Hammerhead II x1
Hobgoblin II x4

Tah dah, ok it's slightly less then 35k, one 3% implant will get you there pretty easily



Yeah this does a lot of damage.... at it's 1.4km optimal range.... And given the pretty dam slow top speed of it the chance of it getting that close and staying there are practically nil. You'll most likely spend most of the battle doing sub 100dps damage.


Minmatar are good ships in the hands of experienced pilots, just not better than the other races.
Minmatar have to reinforce their lesser buffer tank for pvp with speed to get as good or better than than the other races, when we get caught we die a lot quicker however. You can put out some great EFT fits that look fantasic on paper like that, try em out in combat, they don't work.

Minmatar are about controlling range/transversal to get that extra tank the other races have back, learn to compensate for that (there are a lot of tactics that do it, a lot don't even involve more modules!) and you'd have no problems against them.


If you change every time you said "Minmatar" to "Vagabonds" you'd be spot on. But Minmatar is more than just the Vagabond.

1Ekrid1
Posted - 2010.06.21 19:08:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Max Queso
Originally by: Henry Valkyn
...all races should have options that are good in all aspects of the game.


Why is this ideal? I'd have long since stopped playing if the races lacked diversity and were just a the same ships with different skins.


Originally by: Henry Valkyn
The problem lies in the fact that Minmatar is now favoured by players for what is popularized as "fun pvp" (small and medium scale pvp). Surely that must be an indicator that something is off.


If this is true then something has always been off. Since I've been playing there's always been 'fotm'. It stands to reason that a game as diverse in shiptypes as Eve will always see the pendulum swing from one ship to another as changes are made.



Originally by: Henry Valkyn
...the problem is that they are able to dictate engagements to a much larger degree than other races, due to their weapons (Autocannons with large falloff can hit anything from 2km to 50km), speed (nerfed compared to before, but still a huge advantage).


As being able to dictate range is pretty much THE defining attribute of Minmatar ships, so you could have saved a bit of typing here by just saying 'Nerf Minmatar!'


Originally by: Henry Valkyn
The falloff is arguably the problem, as a decent Cynabal/Vagabond pilot can start a fight without really comitting to it. There are too many outs possible and too few options available compared to the other races.


This is as close as you come to a seriously valid argument I think. With the buff to tracking enhancers, those ships that already had falloff bonuses were the most blessed, and became quite powerful indeed. Whether it was to much or not is something that I'm sure the devs can keep an eye on.



Originally by: Henry Valkyn
...remove a bit of the tracking when working at crazy falloff ranges.

Originally by: Henry Valkyn
"Fit a tracking disruptor" is not an answer to this problem.


Rolling Eyes




you can make a game with types of unique and different units that are still balanced. try abandonedrealms.com, they have 12 classes but have a paper > rock > scissor formula, and still manage to get the game balance down to within 2% deviation. thats ridiculously better than any other MMO out there.

Additionally, MMO's main problem in balancing is the PVE/PVE divide. If they centered all CHARACTER balancing on PVP only, then they could easily tweak PVE content to work around that, and everything would be fine. However in a game like WoW, for instance, they decided to diverge PVP and PVE in both builds and equipment, which means that PVE's have to be catered to, and this causes imba for PVP's which also have to be catered to, which causes imba for PVE's, and so on the vicious cycle of fail.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.21 19:16:00 - [124]
 

Quote:

Tah dah, ok it's slightly less then 35k, one 3% implant will get you there pretty easily



Way to inflate (price and) setups.

It does not do 450 DPS
It does not have 35k and a 3% armor is not the implant I'd go after.
This while using faction ammo, all skills to V and whatever.

If you remove the faction stuff you lose 100 DPS, are you sure NO other ship can make up a similar hormone-inflated fitting?

Drones in this setup do 110 DPS alone, nerf Gallente?



Let me EFT-crap out something too:

[Thorax, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Hammerhead II x5



3% implant as well


*490* DPS, faster, 9% less tank. With just 1 rig.

NERF GALLENTE too?

Angst IronShard
Minmatar
Sense of Serendipity
Echoes of Nowhere
Posted - 2010.06.21 19:16:00 - [125]
 

Matari's ships weaknesses are low PG and capacitor.

Demolishar
Posted - 2010.06.21 19:30:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

Tah dah, ok it's slightly less then 35k, one 3% implant will get you there pretty easily



Way to inflate (price and) setups.

It does not do 450 DPS
It does not have 35k and a 3% armor is not the implant I'd go after.
This while using faction ammo, all skills to V and whatever.

If you remove the faction stuff you lose 100 DPS, are you sure NO other ship can make up a similar hormone-inflated fitting?

Drones in this setup do 110 DPS alone, nerf Gallente?



Let me EFT-crap out something too:

[Thorax, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Hammerhead II x5



3% implant as well


*490* DPS, faster, 9% less tank. With just 1 rig.

NERF GALLENTE too?



You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Stop posting. Rolling Eyes

TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.21 19:51:00 - [127]
 

Minmatar subcaps are awesome.

Their capitals on the other hand are a steaming pile of ****. Nidhoggur = worse version of the thanatos. Naglfar = split weapons and citadel missiles. Hel = categorically the worst supercarrier(although it looks cool) . Ragnarok = meh, i'd rather have an erebus.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.06.21 20:01:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Demolishar

You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Stop posting. Rolling Eyes


Actually he does. He just proved that EFT whoring makes no sense whatsoever here. The DPS you get from Minmatar ships is theoretical and is almost always severely penalized by falloff.

Sure the Rupture is a nice ship, for a T1. As is the Vexor, Blackbird, Arbitrator, Omen, even the Thorax after speednerf isn't really that bad as people make it out to be. I don't know if I'd put the Caracal there but meh, even that has its uses.
I just don't understand you people, Minmatar and their entire way of fighting got hit in the face badly with the speed nerf, they got a much needed buff (their guns were CRAP and they had no compensation in terms of speed anymore) and people are whining again.

Maybe it's just the high average skill of hit-and-run Minmatar pilots that bothers you. You know some people chose that race to get a challenge and to actually have to fly the ship instead of 'keep distance at 500 and fire blasters' or 'load scorch and tank and gank' or something similar.

1600 RT
Posted - 2010.06.21 20:13:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Watching AT8, I was thinking:

Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones.
Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps.
Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types.

Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue.

What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)?



-AC optimal is the lowest optimal of all close range weapon
-Good dps but they still have the lowest dps turrets of all EVE
-weaker all around tank

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.21 20:22:00 - [130]
 

Quote:

Actually he does. He just proved that EFT whoring makes no sense whatsoever here. The DPS you get from Minmatar ships is theoretical and is almost always severely penalized by falloff



Exactly. I made a pile of cr*ck to reply to the same matter.

Who cares that on paper I can do 1 zillion DPS, when unlike someone else just sitting and tanking it, I have to zip in and out, watch indicators more closely and so on?
They exactly put high DPS at optimal so that people could still kill something at falloff.


Quote:

Maybe it's just the high average skill of hit-and-run Minmatar pilots that bothers you. You know some people chose that race to get a challenge and to actually have to fly the ship instead of 'keep distance at 500 and fire blasters' or 'load scorch and tank and gank' or something similar.



That has to be it. Minmatar have always been those with most low sec, worst PvE ships (till recently), nasty Thukker "kins", have to learn drones AND missiles AND guns and also possibly both armor and shield tank.
This makes the players flexible (or it caters to those already like that) and thus harder to fight.

I always picture Minmatar as rapier duellists, Amarr as middle age, muscular 5mm thick steel armor and double edged sword and so on. Different skillsets for different styles.

Demolishar
Posted - 2010.06.21 20:26:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Drykor

Maybe it's just the high average skill of hit-and-run Minmatar pilots that bothers you. You know some people chose that race to get a challenge and to actually have to fly the ship instead of 'keep distance at 500 and fire blasters' or 'load scorch and tank and gank' or something similar.


I fly a Curse. It's got 2 nanofibers on it, yet it's 1000m/s slower than a Vagabond with NO nanos, and has a worse align time. I have maxed navigation skills as well. I still manage to kite with it though.
And you're then saying kiting in a Vagabond or Cynabal is DIFFICULT? Try kiting in a ship of another race, you'll find that near impossible. Minmatar have a monopoly on good kiting ships, how is that balanced when everyone and his dog these days wants to nano?


Shaydun
Posted - 2010.06.21 20:45:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Shaydun on 21/06/2010 20:56:35
Edited by: Shaydun on 21/06/2010 20:52:57
That is just one part of eve , minmatar is weaker on big scale , how is that not balanced ?

Hey let's look at what the other race has going for them and ignore the fact that the race i fly is superior in x y and z

Curse is also op as it can just neut anything that gets close to it and disengage at will it can even run away from a vagabond ! way too op , plus they have great optimal wich means they actually hit for full dps , instant reload , best fleet bs's , best fleet hac's best carrier best mothership , they enslave minmatar ... wow :(

To poster below , well i'm sure most of the big alliances would disagree , they're pretty happy with the land they managed to conquer due to the bigger ships and fleet battles , small roams are the most fun of eve for me too but i also like the epic fights , so i can fly amarr and minmatar .

There's some people that only like large fleet ops , others small , can't really speak for them when saying no one cares about it , you and i care mostly about small sized roams , but i'm sure there's alot of people that get their kicks from big ops and bashing those ugly pos's etc .

Demolishar
Posted - 2010.06.21 20:52:00 - [133]
 

Thing is, that one part of EVE, is the one part everyone wants a part of.

El Liptonez
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2010.06.21 20:56:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Demolishar
Originally by: Drykor

Maybe it's just the high average skill of hit-and-run Minmatar pilots that bothers you. You know some people chose that race to get a challenge and to actually have to fly the ship instead of 'keep distance at 500 and fire blasters' or 'load scorch and tank and gank' or something similar.


I fly a Curse. It's got 2 nanofibers on it, yet it's 1000m/s slower than a Vagabond with NO nanos, and has a worse align time. I have maxed navigation skills as well. I still manage to kite with it though.
And you're then saying kiting in a Vagabond or Cynabal is DIFFICULT? Try kiting in a ship of another race, you'll find that near impossible. Minmatar have a monopoly on good kiting ships, how is that balanced when everyone and his dog these days wants to nano?




You said you kite in your curse and then say minmatar have the monopoly in kiting? Or did I misunderstand you?
The fact that Minmatar have to kite just shows that they're not meant to be in close range combat, just like the curse.

I don't see how you can possibly lose your ship to someone kiting. Kiting only works if someone is stupid enough to follow you, I wouldn't call that stupidity imbalance.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.21 20:57:00 - [135]
 

Quote:

Thing is, that one part of EVE, is the one part everyone wants a part of



I suppose cross training to Minmatar frig and cruiser is still some tiny bit easier than for me to cross train to Amarr Carrier and Dread and related gunnery Crying or Very sad

Demolishar
Posted - 2010.06.21 21:23:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: El Liptonez
Originally by: Demolishar
Originally by: Drykor

Maybe it's just the high average skill of hit-and-run Minmatar pilots that bothers you. You know some people chose that race to get a challenge and to actually have to fly the ship instead of 'keep distance at 500 and fire blasters' or 'load scorch and tank and gank' or something similar.


I fly a Curse. It's got 2 nanofibers on it, yet it's 1000m/s slower than a Vagabond with NO nanos, and has a worse align time. I have maxed navigation skills as well. I still manage to kite with it though.
And you're then saying kiting in a Vagabond or Cynabal is DIFFICULT? Try kiting in a ship of another race, you'll find that near impossible. Minmatar have a monopoly on good kiting ships, how is that balanced when everyone and his dog these days wants to nano?




You said you kite in your curse and then say minmatar have the monopoly in kiting? Or did I misunderstand you?
The fact that Minmatar have to kite just shows that they're not meant to be in close range combat, just like the curse.

I don't see how you can possibly lose your ship to someone kiting. Kiting only works if someone is stupid enough to follow you, I wouldn't call that stupidity imbalance.


No, I said Minmatar have a monopoly in GOOD kiting ships. The Curse is a passable kiter, but far from good. But since I can't fly Minmatar, and I don't like training FOTM... Neutral

Balsak
Minmatar
Friends of Bigfoot
Posted - 2010.06.21 21:28:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Demolishar

No, I said Minmatar have a monopoly in GOOD kiting ships. The Curse is a passable kiter, but far from good. But since I can't fly Minmatar, and I don't like training FOTM... Neutral


Shocker that the race that has the fastest ships designed around the hit and run philosophy have the best kiting ships in thee game.

No body said you have to train it because it's FOTM but you can train it if you want to fly those ships. Excluding yourself from something just because it is FOTM is just silly.

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

I suppose cross training to Minmatar frig and cruiser is still some tiny bit easier than for me to cross train to Amarr Carrier and Dread and related gunnery Crying or Very sad


This.

Shaydun
Posted - 2010.06.21 21:31:00 - [138]
 

Yeah just accept min is good at small scale and amarr / rest are better in large scale , otherwise give minmatar the advantages the others have in the larger scale of stuff then let this thread die ;)

Took years for minmatar to even be fun flying compare to the rest so hold on with the panic

Demolishar
Posted - 2010.06.21 21:58:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Balsak
Originally by: Demolishar

No, I said Minmatar have a monopoly in GOOD kiting ships. The Curse is a passable kiter, but far from good. But since I can't fly Minmatar, and I don't like training FOTM... Neutral


Shocker that the race that has the fastest ships designed around the hit and run philosophy have the best kiting ships in thee game.

No body said you have to train it because it's FOTM but you can train it if you want to fly those ships. Excluding yourself from something just because it is FOTM is just silly.



It would take me years to train a Vagabond. By then, it would probably not be FOTM anymore.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2010.06.21 22:03:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Demolishar
Originally by: Balsak
Originally by: Demolishar

No, I said Minmatar have a monopoly in GOOD kiting ships. The Curse is a passable kiter, but far from good. But since I can't fly Minmatar, and I don't like training FOTM... Neutral


Shocker that the race that has the fastest ships designed around the hit and run philosophy have the best kiting ships in thee game.

No body said you have to train it because it's FOTM but you can train it if you want to fly those ships. Excluding yourself from something just because it is FOTM is just silly.



It would take me years to train a Vagabond. By then, it would probably not be FOTM anymore.
Years? Have you trained any learning skills and have any attribute implants in? Provided you aready have the support skills up to snuff all you will need is minmatar cruiser 5 and small/medium projectile 5 so you can fit t2 guns. Thats about three months if you don't have optimal attributes or implants and much shorter if you do.

Balsak
Minmatar
Friends of Bigfoot
Posted - 2010.06.21 22:08:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Demolishar
Originally by: Balsak
Originally by: Demolishar

No, I said Minmatar have a monopoly in GOOD kiting ships. The Curse is a passable kiter, but far from good. But since I can't fly Minmatar, and I don't like training FOTM... Neutral


Shocker that the race that has the fastest ships designed around the hit and run philosophy have the best kiting ships in thee game.

No body said you have to train it because it's FOTM but you can train it if you want to fly those ships. Excluding yourself from something just because it is FOTM is just silly.



It would take me years to train a Vagabond. By then, it would probably not be FOTM anymore.


Years ? Really ?
Besides you aren't training it because it's fotm, you are training it because it does what you want to do.

Oh well it's just easier to whine that Amarr (the armor tanking race) aren't as fast as Minmatar (the hit and run race).

Discrodia
Gallente
Symbiosis International
Moose Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.21 22:24:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Rhinanna
Yeah your missing that you've kinda combined ACs and arties there Laughing

great optimal -- tech 2 425mm (mid) optimal 2.2km....

ACs and arties have the shortest optimals of all gun types.
ACs have a lower max dps than blasters and that damage starts decaying due to the short optimal much quicker than blasters. Lasers can sit at their optimals from ACs and be beyond their optimal+falloffs, in many circumstances be about half-way to falloff again.

Unlike lasers, AC users have to get optimal and have to spend 10 seconds to change ammo type which normally isn't worth it mid fight so while you can choose ammo you kinda have to do it before the fight starts.



You forgot to mention that the nebulous void that is mimy falloff is also pretty much the longest falloff of all the races weapons (27+km on 800mm Autos, 15+ on 425mm autos) and it's likely even greater on arty. The ammo problem is rarely a big one, as in most PvP everyone omni-tanks so as long as you fit ammo with good damage it isn't much of a problem.

Also, no one uses autos at optimal. That would be foolish and rather fatal as well.

In response to OP: I'd say their main weaknesses are webs, ECM, and Amarrian slavery.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.21 23:30:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/06/2010 23:33:38
Base 800mm falloff is 19.2km.

Barkaial Starfinder
Minmatar
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2010.06.21 23:54:00 - [144]
 

Good god...
After reading 5 pages of mostly nonsense, I came to the conclusion some people think minmatar MUST BE BAD.


We have had some good ships, and now our turrets can hit.
We got more viable setups now than before, and we are good.

Good is not overpowered, stop trying to look silly making stuff up.
Bye

Cor Aidan
Shore Leave
Posted - 2010.06.22 00:37:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Cor Aidan on 22/06/2010 00:38:05
Originally by: 1Ekrid1

you can make a game with types of unique and different units that are still balanced. try abandonedrealms.com, they have 12 classes but have a paper > rock > scissor formula, and still manage to get the game balance down to within 2% deviation. thats ridiculously better than any other MMO out there.


Rock-paper-scissors is inherently unbalanced, even if you ensure that rock always beats paper always beats scissors, because scissors can never beat paper. Actually there's a caveat: rock-paper-scissors is balanced assuming that rock, paper, and scissors have the same likelihood of occurring. That said, I'm curious as to what you mean by "2% deviation" for balance - is that in distribution of population of classes or any class vs any other will succeed 48% to 52% of the time?

If it's the latter then it's not rock-paper-scissors but is truly balanced. A truly balanced system would have A beats B with the same probability that B beats A, given equal-skilled participants. Note that this doesn't mean that A is B, but that the likelihood of a situation where A beats B is just as probable as a situation where B beats A.

New Eden is obviously unbalanced in several areas to one extent or another by empirical evidence: whenever there is a post asking "what's the best for XXX?" there will most likely be a very few options. Evidence of balance would be "it doesn't matter, they are all the same." Even the QEN statistics bear this out - a very few number of ships dominate the "active ships" list.

I would say that New Eden ship design isn't about balance at all, but is about roles. Ships excel at particular roles (although even within a role typically there is only one or two of the variants that is empirically better than the others based on probability of finding a particular ship in space).

Now, that said, there may be an argument that New Eden is quite balanced in terms of gangs or fleets because there are vast combinations of groups that are equally likely to succeed against other groups given the probable occurrences of those groups. I haven't seen much evidence that there is one type of gang or fleet that is always flown over others - although I admit I've not done that much research into gang composition versus gang success versus likelihood of seeing that type of gang.

Ultimately, though, people don't want a balanced system. They want a system where it's possible to have a better than 50% success rate regardless of skill. Once you account for skill, there's no such thing as a balanced system, though, because no system yet devised can reliably compensate for skill variation.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.06.22 01:48:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

Actually he does. He just proved that EFT whoring makes no sense whatsoever here. The DPS you get from Minmatar ships is theoretical and is almost always severely penalized by falloff



Exactly. I made a pile of cr*ck to reply to the same matter.

Who cares that on paper I can do 1 zillion DPS, when unlike someone else just sitting and tanking it, I have to zip in and out, watch indicators more closely and so on?
They exactly put high DPS at optimal so that people could still kill something at falloff.


You guys posting this argument that Minmatar do "theorycrafted"-dps realize that ie. a vagabond can start doing damage at around 40km and still have very nice tracking, whereas ships without the falloff can do jack-all damage at that distance (which is why kiting is so great for Minmatar). It doesn't really matter if you do not do max theoretical dps when your enemy isn't doing any dps at all back at you.

I gladly fly Minmatar and have a 425mm Cynabal do nice damage at 40+km against any Gallente sub-capship. Because they simply cannot hit me unless maybe they field an Arazu/Lachesis that manages to scram me before I notice it.

That's the good thing about being multi-raced, that I gladly can field these ships. :P


Balsak
Minmatar
Friends of Bigfoot
Posted - 2010.06.22 01:57:00 - [147]
 

I would hardly call the Cynabal, and the other Angel faction ships Minmatar. Yes they require the Minmatar ship and projectile skills (along with Gallente ship skill) but they are in their own league all together and claiming them as Minmatar and using them as examples of Minmatar ships is not very fair at all. Even though they share the same skill sets they are not Minmatar.

Oh well you just keep ignoring the actual negatives that have been pointed out many times already.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.06.22 02:05:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Balsak
I would hardly call the Cynabal, and the other Angel faction ships Minmatar. Yes they require the Minmatar ship and projectile skills (along with Gallente ship skill) but they are in their own league all together and claiming them as Minmatar and using them as examples of Minmatar ships is not very fair at all. Even though they share the same skill sets they are not Minmatar.

Oh well you just keep ignoring the actual negatives that have been pointed out many times already.


I'm not really ignoring it. As I've already said I accept there are weaknessess. And a vagabond can do similar things a Cynabal can anyways. Great falloff with tracking enhancers are pretty much a racial bonus.

Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2010.06.22 02:06:00 - [149]
 

I am obviously biased but still.

Minmatar guns should be restricted to explosive and kinetic damage, mostly explosive to bring them in line with other races, at the very least.

I would also love to see them use a little cap, say half to a third of what Gallante use.

I think they should drop most of their misslie hard points and have them replaced with guns.

I have never understood why Minmatar recons developed web bonuses to slow down the speedy Amarr ships, and why Amarr recons developed cap neutralizing bonuses to cap out the primarily non-cap using Minmatar ships.

In an E-war boost do something to make target painters more effective, and have tracking disruptors work on missile guidance systems.


Balsak
Minmatar
Friends of Bigfoot
Posted - 2010.06.22 02:22:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Kethry Avenger
I am obviously biased but still.

Minmatar guns should be restricted to explosive and kinetic damage, mostly explosive to bring them in line with other races, at the very least.

I would also love to see them use a little cap, say half to a third of what Gallante use.

I think they should drop most of their misslie hard points and have them replaced with guns.

I have never understood why Minmatar recons developed web bonuses to slow down the speedy Amarr ships, and why Amarr recons developed cap neutralizing bonuses to cap out the primarily non-cap using Minmatar ships.

In an E-war boost do something to make target painters more effective, and have tracking disruptors work on missile guidance systems.




You're right, you are obviously biased.

Changing damage types is one of our racial distinctions, just like how not having to fill your cargo hold with ammo is one of the Amarrs. Our main damage type is explosive in case you haven't looked at fusion ammo and Hounds damage bonus type. Again like I said in a previous post it's not like other races cannot mix up their damage types if they wanted.

Tech 2 projectiles did use 1 cap per shot back when tech 2 guns came in. CCP decided this was silly and removed it, capless weapons was another one of the racial distinctions for Minmatar to offset the fact we have the worst cap in the game.

Our recons got bonus to webs and painters to help with our **** poor tracking and the fact we have missiles as a secondary weapons system.

Amarr recons got a tracking disruptor bonus to counter Minmatar projectiles and a neut / nos bonus to kill our already crap cap and to boost your own cap if needed.

Target painters are fine as is and asking for tracking disruptors to work vs missile systems is just silly, do you really want them to be that overpowered ? Everyone would fit them as a no-brainer defense vs everything but drones.


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