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Xaroth Brook
Minmatar
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.06.21 12:59:00 - [91]
 

you guys do know this is just a game, right? I mean.. 3 pages worth of rabble on what race is FotM and has the largest pvpeen ...

instead it's best to figure out who's second best, as obviously the second something becomes FotM it will be adjusted to be in line, at which point the #2 becomes the new #1 ..

think about it.. white will be the new black Wink

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2010.06.21 13:04:00 - [92]
 

Changeable damage type is a disadvantage:

- One needs to know the resistances of a target in advance or the chance for using the right type is only 1:4.
- To find the best out of the four damage types in order to gain an advantage during a fight takes time and reduces the total DPS.
- A target with even resistances makes changing the damage type a futile effort.
- One needs to carry more ammo than what is needed for destroying a target.
- The eight projectile ammo types do not directly translate into the four damage types, making switching not as easy as some believe it to be.

Arous Drephius
Posted - 2010.06.21 13:07:00 - [93]
 

Minmatar's one true weakness is the duct tape factories. Without them, they're nothing!

Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar
Nomadic Asylum
Posted - 2010.06.21 13:22:00 - [94]
 

So this is a Eft warrior/AT most used race OP whine thread I take it.

Minmatar are the best when it comes to small gang/solo warfare. Its always been like that the combination of speed and versatility is perfect for that type of PVP.

However in larger fleet engagements it is very sub par due to low sensor strength and usually weaker tank. Combined with large guns primarily artillery which has decent alpha but extremely slow rate of fire also cripples it in fleets especially after the HP buff. Also always fighting in falloff isn't the most efficient way of doing things either.

Minmatar does in fact require more SP to fly in order to utilize the versatility of the different ships. Granted if you only train for 1 fit for 1 ship it will take the same as any other race.






Cepone
Posted - 2010.06.21 13:32:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Cepone on 21/06/2010 13:32:04
Yes biggest weakness with minmatar is big fleet engagements , love guy who said a vagabond can choose when to engage and the zealot has to stay and fight.

Well the vagabond can't snipe like the zealot so boo hoo.

Also looks like the op and the other minmatar beaters look past the valid points about the minmatar weaknesses and just keep on trolling , hopefully this sheep thread dies soon.

Henry Valkyn
Posted - 2010.06.21 13:48:00 - [96]
 

I don't understand why the whole "It takes more SP to fly Minmatar ships" is an argument. Ideally, all races should have options that are good in all aspects of the game. Old players all have decent skills and can easily fly all types of ships. The problem lies in the fact that Minmatar is now favoured by players for what is popularized as "fun pvp" (small and medium scale pvp). Surely that must be an indicator that something is off.

And to the people commenting on the fact thinking some of us are 'crying'... let me point out that this is a DISCUSSION forum.

The problem is not the fact that Minmatar ships may arguably have a weaker tank (when they finally active tank) or that their dps is a bit lower, the problem is that they are able to dictate engagements to a much larger degree than other races, due to their weapons (Autocannons with large falloff can hit anything from 2km to 50km), speed (nerfed compared to before, but still a huge advantage). Balanced gameplay does not put people who usually stick to one race to switch over to another because the benefit is so much larger.

I wouldn't mind Minmatar ships having the benefits they have right now, but pretty please with sugar on the top, remove a bit of the tracking when working at crazy falloff ranges. The falloff is arguably the problem, as a decent Cynabal/Vagabond pilot can start a fight without really comitting to it. There are too many outs possible and too few options available compared to the other races.

"Fit a tracking disruptor" is not an answer to this problem. Most setups you roam with will be generic to some extent and while I can appreciate EWAR ships and their roles, they do not address the greater issue.

Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2010.06.21 14:19:00 - [97]
 


Ophelia Ursus
Posted - 2010.06.21 15:02:00 - [98]
 

Low sensor strength, weak tank, and mediocre damage on autocannons compared to pulse lasers/missiles at range and compared to blasters up close.

Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.06.21 15:03:00 - [99]
 

@OP

Tank, that's our weakness. Web us and we go poof.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2010.06.21 15:25:00 - [100]
 

Minmatar have their weakness. They are FAR inferior on BUFFER tanking on the battleship range. Their shield boost bonus is a waste most of time.

Minmatar are as predominant on medium ships as the ammar are with battleships. Just a case of orientation of their mechanics.

Less total HP than other races on most category of ships.


AC DO NOT have good optimal they are ALWAYS on falloff so their DPS is NOT the theoretical.


They have LESS capacitor than other races (that cancels the no usage from the projectiles).


Arties ahve the worse tracking of everything in game.

Lower sensor strenght, shortest lock range (MUCH more relevant than scan resolution most of time).


Several ships are SPLIT, undecided behavior or have a wasted bonus. Example, maelstrom, cyclone and sleipnir wasted bonus (most of time). Rapier and huggin wasted painter bonus. Huggin and typhoon split weapons. Tempest complete jack of all trades master of absolutely nothing.

Speed was nerfed into nothingness a few expansions ago, removing from the game the MAIN MINMATAR way of life. So the speed advantage is a MARGINAL one right now for most ships.


At end minmatar are VERY versatile and very good when you are not sure what to expect and might need to change tactics on the fly. Exactly the current tournament scenario.



There are SEVERAL combat environment where for example the HUGE range advantage of pulse lasers make ammar the supreme ships. OR where being able to field a massive armor buffer tank is the best option. Or where speed advantage means squat (see if the tempest speed helps anythign when you have 5 frigates webbing you).


Minmatar are currently what they are supposed to be. Tournament is the one that created a scenario where minmatar are the best ones.

Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Navigators of the Abyss
Posted - 2010.06.21 16:08:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Devil tiger
I'd say its sensor strenght and damn near worthless racial e-war type, which isn't a real weakness since all racial except Caldari suck equally bad (which is near OP so everybody uses it thus making it ok).


LOL, target painters suck FOTM.....

That's why almost every team has fielded target painters right? They suck so baaaaad.

Ehranavaar
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.21 16:09:00 - [102]
 

well if this new amarr laser heterodyning proceedure works out they'll have a weapon tuned to destroy duct tape. this will be the end of minmatar ships in eve.

Max Queso
Posted - 2010.06.21 16:13:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Henry Valkyn
...all races should have options that are good in all aspects of the game.


Why is this ideal? I'd have long since stopped playing if the races lacked diversity and were just a the same ships with different skins.


Originally by: Henry Valkyn
The problem lies in the fact that Minmatar is now favoured by players for what is popularized as "fun pvp" (small and medium scale pvp). Surely that must be an indicator that something is off.


If this is true then something has always been off. Since I've been playing there's always been 'fotm'. It stands to reason that a game as diverse in shiptypes as Eve will always see the pendulum swing from one ship to another as changes are made.



Originally by: Henry Valkyn
...the problem is that they are able to dictate engagements to a much larger degree than other races, due to their weapons (Autocannons with large falloff can hit anything from 2km to 50km), speed (nerfed compared to before, but still a huge advantage).


As being able to dictate range is pretty much THE defining attribute of Minmatar ships, so you could have saved a bit of typing here by just saying 'Nerf Minmatar!'


Originally by: Henry Valkyn
The falloff is arguably the problem, as a decent Cynabal/Vagabond pilot can start a fight without really comitting to it. There are too many outs possible and too few options available compared to the other races.


This is as close as you come to a seriously valid argument I think. With the buff to tracking enhancers, those ships that already had falloff bonuses were the most blessed, and became quite powerful indeed. Whether it was to much or not is something that I'm sure the devs can keep an eye on.



Originally by: Henry Valkyn
...remove a bit of the tracking when working at crazy falloff ranges.

Originally by: Henry Valkyn
"Fit a tracking disruptor" is not an answer to this problem.


Rolling Eyes


Backho
Posted - 2010.06.21 16:27:00 - [104]
 

Um. just because someone wiped the floor with scrubs in the tournament doesnt mean the race is overpowered.

Your point is moot. OP is troll and everyone is feeding him. good job.

Julius Romanus
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.21 16:32:00 - [105]
 

The Rifter, Rupture, and Hurricane do not have a weakness compared to other races options. The battleships are closer. AC's leave too much powergrid on the lower classes.

B1FF
Posted - 2010.06.21 16:34:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Minmatar turrets are capless.
They can still be neutralised, most obviously through the used of tracking disruptors.


That's not a minmitar disadvantage that's a turret disadvantage.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.21 16:43:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/06/2010 16:44:39
Quote:

Minmatar ships have just as much tank as anything else you shove a 1600mm plate on



Sure, you can also shove a 50mm plate on a Ferrari, it'll be like a tank. Nevermind it won't do its supposed unique function of being fast and agile.
And then? You put a plate ofc you have to forget damage mods and then you get what? A low damage, average tank, not-agile anymore piece of trash?


Quote:

Ever done L4 missions in a Sleipnir? It's a complete joke



Did you get beyond the 20M per hour mark? Otherwise THAT is a complete joke.


Quote:

I don't understand why the whole "It takes more SP to fly Minmatar ships" is an argument. Ideally, all races should have options that are good in all aspects of the game



I trained my Caldari missioneer in half the time of the Minmatar one and she's performing as good. That for me IS an argument.


Quote:

I wouldn't mind Minmatar ships having the benefits they have right now, but pretty please with sugar on the top, remove a bit of the tracking when working at crazy falloff ranges.



What about we waited for YEARS to have tracking improved and now you want us back to the crapper?


Quote:

The Rifter, Rupture, and Hurricane do not have a weakness compared to other races options. The battleships are closer.



Besides Minmatar ARE the race that is good with small ships to counterbalance the worthlessness at anything beyond battleship, with stuff like Punisher, Drake (and even Cormorant) around, there are competitive alternatives.
"The battleships are closer" is completely foul. Once again, use a Phoon and you get the versatile 1v1 vessel, but wait, in fleet they don't want it. They want some awfully low damage and primaried (right after Megas and little else) Tempest or similar.
I wish I could trade Minmatar battleship with Amarr battleship V, I would finally feel worth a sh!t and with a path to capitals I currently don't have.

Demolishar
Posted - 2010.06.21 17:01:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/06/2010 16:44:39
Quote:

Minmatar ships have just as much tank as anything else you shove a 1600mm plate on



Sure, you can also shove a 50mm plate on a Ferrari, it'll be like a tank. Nevermind it won't do its supposed unique function of being fast and agile.
And then? You put a plate ofc you have to forget damage mods and then you get what? A low damage, average tank, not-agile anymore piece of trash?



The 1600mm plated rupture is not considered best in it's class at all, is it? For doing 450 dps, with 35,000 ehp, and full tackle, and neuts, and reasonably good speed...
Oh, and I forgot that just because the plated Hurricane out-damages, out-tanks, and out-utilities (you know what I mean) it's nearest equivalent ship - the plated Harbinger, that makes it a low damage, average tank, piece of trash Rolling Eyes

Minmatar isn't just the Vagabond, you know...

Henry Valkyn
Posted - 2010.06.21 17:02:00 - [109]
 

@ Max Queso

I love how you ignore aspects of the arguments that doesn't fit into your responses. Limited-quoting is lovely.

Having to specifically fit your ship to deal with a certain race (not ship mind you) when they can fit a general cookie-cutter setup cannot be optimal by game design. The autocannons are so powerful atm that artillery beyond the Muninn and other other very specific engagement styles/gangs, has to a degree become obsolete. Someone pure minmatar did mention earlier in this thread that they have come to prefer Autocannons because of the current state of them. Meanwhile, Gallente especially and to a certain degree Amarr cannot afford this luxury.

Yes, I'm talking about small/medium gang pvp as it has been (!)popularized(!) as the most fun pvp. The tournament being constricted by rules may not give a totally accurate insight. Tt does however paint a large picture of the current use and benefits of the Minmatar ships with emphasis on Autocannons.

I don't want a homogenic game, but I don't think it is unrealistic that all races should have options available that give them a similar range of tools to influence a fight. Right now however, Minmatar ships (especially the Cynabal and Vagabond) use the advantage they have to control the fight. Even if you send a ceptor after them they have a neut, ECM drones and can track the ceptor orbiting them at full speed. This combined with a large shield buffer with racial resists that favor this type of tanking make them optimal in all regards.

Saelie
Posted - 2010.06.21 17:26:00 - [110]
 

Edited by: Saelie on 21/06/2010 17:29:08
I think my conclusions from the AT8 statistics still stand. Minmatar are great in small roaming gangs, provided they're grouped with other Minmatar. Their advantages become less useful and their weaknesses become more apparent if you fly them in larger groups or mixed fleets. This makes them popular for the Tournament (Though not necessarily any more effective, as the kill numbers indicate), but in genuine TQ PvP, most FCs aren't looking for Minmatar ships beyond tackle.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.21 17:30:00 - [111]
 

Quote:

The 1600mm plated rupture is not considered best in it's class at all, is it? For doing 450 dps, with 35,000 ehp, and full tackle, and neuts, and reasonably good speed...



With what fitting, exactly?



Quote:

Yes, I'm talking about small/medium gang pvp as it has been (!)popularized(!) as the most fun pvp



EvE is not the damn WoW, where you fetch the OP setup and win everytime, everywhere.
If you want roam PvP you can sure pick Minmatar, if you want fleet PvP you are better to stick with Amarr, if you want caps fights you are NOT going Minmatar.
You get an array of alternatives for an array of situations. What's wrong if YOU picked the wrong race for the PvP type you prefer?

Shaydun
Posted - 2010.06.21 17:33:00 - [112]
 

Edited by: Shaydun on 21/06/2010 17:37:02
Edited by: Shaydun on 21/06/2010 17:33:44
Stop focusing on those 2 ships Henry Valkyn , one is a faction ship wich well i don't like cynabal or dramiel either as i find them op atm as they remind me of the old nano wars.

The vaga is good for solo / small gang but that's it , eve isn't all about that , so if you remove the strenghts of minmatar wich is small gang right now and change nothing then minmatar will just be the weaklings again , how fun !

Amarr is king in fleet fights , minmatar is good in smallish gang fights and more of a "well if that's all you have then bring it" for large fleet battles other than tackling (the tempest is ok but no match for the amarrian gods).

Eve has been like this from the start , some races are better in this and others excell in something else , deal with it , stop focusing on the vaga as it's not the only ship in eve and tq pvp isn't all about 10v10 or 1v1.

Somehow no one said anything about the all amarr setup pl used on the way to the finals that did just as good , but since they went with minmatar for the finals this was bound to happen.

Also most minmatar ships fielded were faction , other than sabres and that was due to well being a great ship for the points it cost to lose one in the tournament , didn't see many vagas or tempests or anything ;).

Anyway done with this thread , it's like all the frustrated people who lost a ship to a minmatar pilot decided to come whine in this thread.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.06.21 17:34:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Drykor on 21/06/2010 17:34:18
Originally by: Demolishar
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/06/2010 16:44:39
Quote:

Minmatar ships have just as much tank as anything else you shove a 1600mm plate on



Sure, you can also shove a 50mm plate on a Ferrari, it'll be like a tank. Nevermind it won't do its supposed unique function of being fast and agile.
And then? You put a plate ofc you have to forget damage mods and then you get what? A low damage, average tank, not-agile anymore piece of trash?



The 1600mm plated rupture is not considered best in it's class at all, is it? For doing 450 dps, with 35,000 ehp, and full tackle, and neuts, and reasonably good speed...
Oh, and I forgot that just because the plated Hurricane out-damages, out-tanks, and out-utilities (you know what I mean) it's nearest equivalent ship - the plated Harbinger, that makes it a low damage, average tank, piece of trash Rolling Eyes

Minmatar isn't just the Vagabond, you know...



AHAHAHHAHA, show me this plated hurricane setup that outdamages a proper Harbinger beyond autocannon optimal (which is basically nothing)

Lorieen
AQ Militis Seprentia
Posted - 2010.06.21 17:38:00 - [114]
 

Quote:
What is the one true weakness of minmatar ships?


Its the same as all the rest of the ships in the game -> the pilot

Bonny Lee
Caldari
Starkstrom
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2010.06.21 17:46:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Henry Valkyn
@ Max Queso

I love how you ignore aspects of the arguments that doesn't fit into your responses. Limited-quoting is lovely.

Having to specifically fit your ship to deal with a certain race (not ship mind you) when they can fit a general cookie-cutter setup cannot be optimal by game design. The autocannons are so powerful atm that artillery beyond the Muninn and other other very specific engagement styles/gangs, has to a degree become obsolete. Someone pure minmatar did mention earlier in this thread that they have come to prefer Autocannons because of the current state of them. Meanwhile, Gallente especially and to a certain degree Amarr cannot afford this luxury.

Yes, I'm talking about small/medium gang pvp as it has been (!)popularized(!) as the most fun pvp. The tournament being constricted by rules may not give a totally accurate insight. Tt does however paint a large picture of the current use and benefits of the Minmatar ships with emphasis on Autocannons.

I don't want a homogenic game, but I don't think it is unrealistic that all races should have options available that give them a similar range of tools to influence a fight. Right now however, Minmatar ships (especially the Cynabal and Vagabond) use the advantage they have to control the fight. Even if you send a ceptor after them they have a neut, ECM drones and can track the ceptor orbiting them at full speed. This combined with a large shield buffer with racial resists that favor this type of tanking make them optimal in all regards.


Minmatar always was said to be the best solo/smallscale choice. Nothing has changed.
1. only few ships are able to hit orbiting Intys with ACs. Intys have to be careful if they tackle a vaga... it has always been like this. You also have to be careful if you tackle a Curse, a Arazu, a Rapier, a Huginn, a Lachesis or some other ships. A Cerberus also has a nice Shieldbuffer if you fit it to have one and it also can kill Ceptors. A Falcon can Jam and get away too.

Your are only telling bull****. Your are either a troll or dont have a clue.

Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Navigators of the Abyss
Posted - 2010.06.21 17:58:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

The 1600mm plated rupture is not considered best in it's class at all, is it? For doing 450 dps, with 35,000 ehp, and full tackle, and neuts, and reasonably good speed...



With what fitting, exactly?



[Rupture, gank]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II

Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x1
Hobgoblin II x4


Tah dah, ok it's slightly less then 35k, one 3% implant will get you there pretty easily

Do you actually fly minmatar?

Here's a 570ish dps glass cannon setup:

[Rupture, New Setup 2]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II

Warp Scrambler II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Stasis Webifier II

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Torrent Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Torrent Assault Missile

Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I
Medium Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I
Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I


Hobgoblin II x4
Hammerhead II x1


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.21 17:58:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Devil tiger
I'd say its sensor strenght and damn near worthless racial e-war type, which isn't a real weakness since all racial except Caldari suck equally bad (which is near OP so everybody uses it thus making it ok).
LOL, target painters suck FOTM.....

That's why almost every team has fielded target painters right? They suck so baaaaad.
Yup. Having one ship provide what essentially amounts to a tracking computer on each ship of the entire fleet is a really sucky benefit… Razz

The slot savings on that alone should make your head spin.

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2010.06.21 18:15:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Yup. Having one ship provide what essentially amounts to a tracking computer on each ship of the entire fleet is a really sucky benefit… Razz

The slot savings on that alone should make your head spin.



Woudl anyoen field those track comptuers if there was no target painters?

Nope ! Because in any fleet you do not have ANY tracking issues at close range because the target will have like anything from 4 to 10 webs on it. Making target painters irrelevant. They are very useful only as support for torpedoes basically. On other situations they are a minimal support.

On long range engagements target painters cannot reach anything (if they had more range then things would be different). They would be useful only on theoretical fights at around 50-60 km... a range that is not exactly a COMMON battleground. And even so .. only for a few seconds until the tacklers get to targets and remove the tracking issue.


Target painter is a MINIMAL tool. So minimal that you NEVER see it on any serious combat unless you have stealth bombers, ravens or typhoons involved.

El Liptonez
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2010.06.21 18:22:00 - [119]
 

Edited by: El Liptonez on 21/06/2010 18:25:15
Edited by: El Liptonez on 21/06/2010 18:22:48
Originally by: Lorieen
Quote:
What is the one true weakness of minmatar ships?


Its the same as all the rest of the ships in the game -> the pilot


Qft. But I think Minmatar ships are some of the least idiot proof ones. You can't simply sit there and hold your enemy down while he shoots you, unless you believe in plated ships and your enemy is not fit too well. It all depends on what size though, obviously, and on what you're fighting.

Being in 0.0, I almost exclusively see nanoed Minmatar ships over all classes (that's generally a flavor of my alliance though). Their only tank is DPS, and more importantly, speed. And the "navigation" requires a little more skill than, for instance, a Drake sitting there holding its enemy down with web and scram.
It's mostly about kiting frigates and killing other stuff before reinforcements arrive. Or run, when the situation goes **** (running in structure after the enemy said gf is just priceless Laughing). At least that's the most fun for me.

So, I find web+scram the easiest counter for Minmatar. In conclusion, what others already said: Their tank sucks, plated stuff aside. And in the end, if the pilot sucks, the ship is useless. I like all those Vagabonds burning to me at 0 to get a long range point. YARRRR!!

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.06.21 18:37:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/06/2010 18:45:24
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Do you actually fly minmatar?


I have so many times wondered that about you - but really I think it's just that you don't fly anything else. ;-)

-Liang

Ed: I want to also state that the 1600 plate Rupture is one of the best ships in class. I think the Rifter, Rupture, Hurricane, and Typhoon are about the only ships you can plate up and have anything approaching a reasonable ship - and even then I'd argue that the plate Hurricane isn't really that reasonable most of the time (too slow, not enough range or too little DPS).

Anyway, Minmatar's strong, but IMO not overly strong. Gallente will still (today) stand up and **** any Minnie ship that wanders too close, and Amarr will still obliterate Minmatar utility on the fleet front. And yes I'm aware of my alliance's massive Tempest blobs. Laughing


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