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Sphit Ker
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.06.21 04:03:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Ocih
So before they kill Matar again, consider a prudent nerf to all EvE. No more perma cloak AFK. Every 20 minutes or so you need to turn off your cloak and recycle it. Do it in warp, thats fine. But if you want to AFK camp a system? Tough. If you want to cloak camp a system do it staring at the screen.

-Add on: Better idea. low m3 fuels for cloaks.
Both are easily beaten by the simplest macro scripts ever invented. Hell a programmable keyboard could be setup to do it.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Zheren Huli
Above the Law
ESSE Imperium
Posted - 2010.06.21 04:05:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Of course if people field more minmatar ships, they will be more likely to be ships lost.




that too, however...
my eye wasnt so much on the total amount fielded but rather on the ships that are the ones first to die in a stalemate situation, targeted cause of a weak tank or just because they are first in range. hense minmatar with their "fill up" ships could screw quiet a lot with the statistics.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.21 04:08:00 - [63]
 


Saelie
Posted - 2010.06.21 04:16:00 - [64]
 

The stats for larger ships had to be compiled from here, so let's see what we came up with. In 'large ships' I included all battleships, commandships, battlecruisers, and strategic cruisers (Marauders and HACs were ignored due to there only being 9 and 18 fielded, respectively). Sadly, the 'Winners Only' data is not easily available for this (I'd have to go through every single match manually), simply the tournament-wide fielded/survival ratios:

*Disclaimer* - Faction ships are not included. Notes I gleaned from watching the tournament are included below each statistic.

Battleships Fielded/Lost/Percent Survival:
Amarr: 36 / 20 / 44.4%
Caldari: 14 / 9 / 35.7%
Gallente: 16 / 9 / 43.75%
Minmatar: 13 / 5 / 61.5%

Notes: This seems to favor the Minmatar, but the statistics are skewed by one match (Second qualifier, Leguinea Romana Vs. death from above) in which three Maelstroms were fielded, but almost nothing on either side was destroyed. Discarding the results of this non-battle, in which only 21 points were destroyed by both sides combined, the Minmatar battleship drops to 10 / 5 / 50%, still the highest but not as impressively so due to the small sample sizes of non-Amarr battleships. The Abaddon was especially common, with 27 of them seeing battle, as many as Caldari and Minmatar combined.


Commandships Fielded/Lost/Percent Survival:
Amarr: 21 / 10 / 52.4%
Caldari: 37 / 22 / 40.5%
Gallente: 9 / 6 / 33.3%
Minmatar: 100 / 56 / 44.0%

Notes: Sleipnirs were one of the most popular ships of the tournament, with a monumental 82 of them taking the field - The second most popular ship behind the Dramiel. Amarr commandships have the survival edge here, while the tiny number of Gallente commandships that appeared at all (All the same ship, the Eos) makes their statistics almost meaningless. The Caldari were slightly set back by a few triple-Nighthawk teams that died horribly.


Battlecruisers Fielded/Lost/Percent Survival:
Amarr: 10 / 7 / 30.0%
Caldari: 76 / 43 / 43.4%
Gallente: 35 / 16 / 54.3%
Minmatar: 95 / 63 / 33.7%

Notes: No surprise here with the Minmatar theme, as well as the high death rate of the few Amarr battlecruisers, all Harbingers - Notorious glass cannons. That said, the sample size is low enough that I wouldn't count on it. The Minmatar BCs fared surprisingly badly, especially the Cyclone with its abysmal 17 / 14 / 17.7% survival rate. This is likely heavily influenced to the sheer numbers of them being fielded, but winning teams tended to go for the Sleipnir over the Hurricane in my observations - It runs a better shield tank.

Strategic Cruisers Fielded/Lost/Percent Survival:
Amarr: 5 / 0 / 100%
Caldari: 59 / 34 / 42.4%
Gallente: 38 / 21 / 44.7%
Minmatar: 25 / 10 / 60.0%

Notes: The Tengu, hailed for its versatility, had the highest attrition rate among every one of the strategic cruisers, mainly due to the large number of teams that fielded triple-Tengu setups and lost. No Legions died, but only five were fielded, three by tournament champions Pandemic Legion as a specific counter to another setup, making that statistic meaningless. The high survival of the Loki here is rather impressive.


Total Large Ships Fielded/Lost/Percent Survival
Amarr: 72 / 37 / 48.6%
Caldari: 186 / 108 / 41.9%
Gallente: 98 / 52 / 46.9%
Minmatar: 233 / 134 / 42.5%

Caldari had the highest loss rate among large ships - No surprise considering the tendency of newer teams to field the generally-useless Drake combined with the Nighthawk's poor showing. The Minmatar also suffered due to the numbers of them, particularly the setups that ran three Sleipnirs or three Hurricanes (Or both) with a Claymore usually thrown in as well, typically getting destroyed by stealth bombers. Gallente and Amarr large ships had similarly high survival rates due to their generally being brought in for a specific reason.

Saelie
Posted - 2010.06.21 04:25:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Zheren Huli
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Of course if people field more minmatar ships, they will be more likely to be ships lost.




that too, however...
my eye wasnt so much on the total amount fielded but rather on the ships that are the ones first to die in a stalemate situation, targeted cause of a weak tank or just because they are first in range. hense minmatar with their "fill up" ships could screw quiet a lot with the statistics.


While true, I noted that the statistics would likely hold out even if even numbers had been brought. This is suggested to me by the winners' numbers - 305 Minmatar ships were fielded, with 95 lost, while 444 non-Minmatar ships were fielded with only 89 of them lost - Despite more than 25% more non-Minmatar ships being fielded by victorious teams, they still lost fewer of them.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.06.21 04:29:00 - [66]
 

Dunno why I'm continuing this but...

Originally by: Cambarus
Fiddled around in EFT, figured I'd throw a couple numbers out there:

Abaddon VS Maelstrom:
8 T2 biggest close-range guns, 2 damage mods, mael has 2 TEs as well.
Close range ammo loaded: Abaddon ODs the maelstrom out to about 18km, then the mael comes out on top for damage.
Long range ammo loaded: abaddon ODs the mael out to about 52km. (keeping in mind the abaddon has no TEs and the mael has 2)



You are forgetting:
1. Damage types.
2. Cap usage (Matari guns use no cap), an abaddon without cap mods is dead.
3. Tank. Whilst a Mael can happily use lows for damage mods, an abaddon cannot so easily.

Quote:

Both are equally screwed if they get TD'd
Both are equally screwed if they get neuted



True, but I'd rather pick the capless guns versus neuts. How about you? [The discussion is of course very situational, so it's borderline impossible to really have a serious comparison]

Quote:

The difference isn't that huge, and certainly doesn't favor the matari in any significant way.



I can come up with many situations where I would rather be in the Maelstrom. Not that the 'baddon is bad. The Mael is just a very impressive BS under many circumstances.

Quote:

Pest is pretty bad, more of a big BC than a BS.



What? Very impressive alpha and dps, great falloff and good damage. Sort of weak tank, but still a very good ship. One of the cheapest sniper BS out there with very impressive alpha.

Quote:

Phoon needs more skills than just about any other non-cap in the game to use well.



But with those skills it has the highest potential DPS of all tier 1 ships (and probably tier 2 and 3 as well in glass-cannon mode).

Quote:

Cane is a good BC, but then so is the drake.



I am not going to argue against the drake. It's very ... boring ;)

Quote:

Vaga is the best roaming HAC, but other races have better sniping HACs



Muninn has very nice alpha, which is important for sniping, no? Check out snipercanes btw. - very impressive and a lot cheaper.

Quote:

Sleip is good, but then so is the abso.



Abso again the problem with damage/mobility. Sleip does high damage, good tank, whilst being very maneuverable. I disagree here.

Quote:

Rifter kicks ass, but most people outgrow t1 frigs pretty quick.
Scimitar is a good logi ship, but then so is the guardian.



I argue that the scimitar is the best shield logi-ship in the game. Look at ie. Darkside. (very competent medium gang pvp-alliance using scimmies exclusively for good reason).

Quote:

I can't really think of any matari shipline that really dominates. All their ships are very situational, and the different lineups are so vastly different that each one has its own massive weakness to be exploited.


In a way I agree with you that there will always be situations where you can find weaknesses in any ship. And that pilot skills and player skills are relevant. I am not saying that there is an immense balance issue at hand, it's just that I find it difficult to find an as obvious flaw with Minmatar ships as with Gallente for example.

Balsak
Minmatar
Friends of Bigfoot
Posted - 2010.06.21 04:48:00 - [67]
 

You asked what the weaknesses of Minmatar were and you have been answered. You can go train to fly Minmatar and find out for yourself. Just because the Gallente may have some problems that doesn't make Minmatar more powerful than everyone else.

There is no doubt that the falloff boost really helped Minnie ships out and everyone loves flying fast ships over the slow ass bricks of the other races.

Damage types are really a non issue like was mentioned in the tournament. Everyone pretty much omni tanks anyways, combine that with drone and missile boats being able to mix up their damage types. It's not like Gallente get a bonus to their thermal damage drones only.

bestsnail
Posted - 2010.06.21 04:51:00 - [68]
 

Maybe ccp should balance all the races based on how they preform in the AT kinda like how blizzard rebalanced all classes in wow based on how they do in the arena.

omgevenmoarfreemoniez
Posted - 2010.06.21 04:55:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Balsak

Damage types are really a non issue like was mentioned in the tournament. Everyone pretty much omni tanks anyways, combine that with drone and missile boats being able to mix up their damage types. It's not like Gallente get a bonus to their thermal damage drones only.


Ever tried fighting a T2 ship while using the wrong damage types? Or killing a Drake with explosive? Switchable damage types DO matter.

Balsak
Minmatar
Friends of Bigfoot
Posted - 2010.06.21 04:59:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: omgevenmoarfreemoniez
Originally by: Balsak

Damage types are really a non issue like was mentioned in the tournament. Everyone pretty much omni tanks anyways, combine that with drone and missile boats being able to mix up their damage types. It's not like Gallente get a bonus to their thermal damage drones only.


Ever tried fighting a T2 ship while using the wrong damage types? Or killing a Drake with explosive? Switchable damage types DO matter.


I never said was never useful, but it isn't a Minmatar exclusive ability.

Saelie
Posted - 2010.06.21 05:01:00 - [71]
 

Selected replies.

Quote:
You are forgetting:
1. Damage types.
2. Cap usage (Matari guns use no cap), an abaddon without cap mods is dead.
3. Tank. Whilst a Mael can happily use lows for damage mods, an abaddon cannot so easily.

I made a comment about damage types. So did one of the Alliance Tournament commentators. Most of the time damage type doesn't matter - Most PvP ships don't have any one resist that's very high or very low, and you're not going to be changing it mid-battle anyway because it's ten seconds of not doing anything. In regards to cap usage, this is true - The Abaddon is notoriously finicky on the cap, but then again, so is an active-tanked Maelstrom. You're right and wrong on the issue of the tank - The Maelstrom, with its active tank bonus and shield booster, is a better 1v1 or very-small-gang ship compared to the Abaddon, but against four or five people, the Abaddon begins to outshine it - Active-tanking Maelstroms melt like butter when primaried by eight battleships (and good luck passive-tanking it) but the legendary armor buffer of the Abaddon takes a long time to go down even then.

Quote:
True, but I'd rather pick the capless guns versus neuts. How about you? [The discussion is of course very situational, so it's borderline impossible to really have a serious comparison]

Very situational, and the capless guns would be a big advantage over the cap-hungry Abaddon in a neuting situation. But there's a flip side to that - Maelstroms almost always active-tank, and that tank is going to shut off in the event of heavy neuting, while the typical armor-buffer Abaddon can continue to sit there and take it. In a fleet situation, it's generally better to have one Abaddon tying down a Curse for the entire fight than a Maelstrom tying it down for the minute or two it will take the enemy to kill it without its tank and free the Curse up.

Quote:
I can come up with many situations where I would rather be in the Maelstrom. Not that the 'baddon is bad. The Mael is just a very impressive BS under many circumstances.

The Maelstrom is better the smaller the fleet is, the Abaddon is better the larger it is, generally speaking. My opinion, of course.

Quote:
What? Very impressive alpha and dps, great falloff and good damage. Sort of weak tank, but still a very good ship. One of the cheapest sniper BS out there with very impressive alpha.

The 'Pest is good, but so is the Apoc. Sniper ships run almost no tank anyway, and the Apoc has an easier time getting extreme range because of its optimal bonus. The Tempest is, however, vastly superior for alpha damage - A group of them is quite frightening indeed! Both of them are better snipers than the Rokh, I think, and a mix of both (Tempests for huge alphas, Apocs for sustained fire to keep logistics busy) is devastating.

Quote:
But with those skills it has the highest potential DPS of all tier 1 ships (and probably tier 2 and 3 as well in glass-cannon mode).

Not running the numbers to see if that's true or not (Geddons, torp Ravens, and Megas can deal crippling DPS too) but it wouldn't surprise me. It'd be close.

Quote:
I argue that the scimitar is the best shield logi-ship in the game. Look at ie. Darkside. (very competent medium gang pvp-alliance using scimmies exclusively for good reason).

For small fast-moving gangs, yes. In fleet battles, Basilisks and Guardians have the edge since they can support each other with cap as well as shields/armor. Won't see this in the Tournament with their one-logi limit, which is there because of how popular this used to be.


With versatile lineups like the Minmatar have, it's hard to find one big glaring racial weakness. Instead, you get to know the weaknesses of each individual ship.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.21 05:09:00 - [72]
 

Not all ships of the same class should be equally good. Each race should have a few really popular ships. I think that's pretty much how it is. No changes required.

Saelie
Posted - 2010.06.21 05:10:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: omgevenmoarfreemoniez
Originally by: Balsak

Damage types are really a non issue like was mentioned in the tournament. Everyone pretty much omni tanks anyways, combine that with drone and missile boats being able to mix up their damage types. It's not like Gallente get a bonus to their thermal damage drones only.


Ever tried fighting a T2 ship while using the wrong damage types? Or killing a Drake with explosive? Switchable damage types DO matter.

I've found something counter-intuitive about PvP tanks. Generally speaking, what started as their highest resist ends as their lowest resist because they protect against everything else. In my experience, Explosive is one of the best damage types against passive Drakes since they always have several EM amplifiers but rarely have more than one (If they even have that!) explosive amplifier. The typical PvP ship, though, has resists that are generally within 10-15% of each other, so changing damage types might not even make a noticeable difference.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.21 05:27:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Saelie
The typical PvP ship, though, has resists that are generally within 10-15% of each other, so changing damage types might not even make a noticeable difference.
I hope you're trying to say that the damage they receive is within 10–15%, because if you're talking about the actual resist values, that's a huge difference.

Eg.
60 vs 70% resist → 40 vs. 30% damage getting through — 33% more for the lower resist.
70 vs 80% resist → 30 vs. 20% damage getting through — 50% more for the lower resist.
80 vs 90% resist → 20 vs. 10% damage getting through — 100% more for the lower resist.

A 10% difference in resist values is quite noticeable…

Fumen
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.06.21 05:36:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
This.


The bane of all Matari the galaxy over!!

Marz Ghola
Minmatar
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2010.06.21 05:45:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Marz Ghola on 21/06/2010 05:46:26
It has already been said they have capless guns, but they also have the least amount of cap of all the races. Cap intensive mods/situations are not their best form.

I have noticed in fleets, minny ships are often targeted first, since everyone knows they do (can do) good dps, yet are easy to break down.

If someone makes a choice to fly Minmatar ships, they are taking a long training road compared to all races.

Must train:

-Shield tank
-Armor tank
-Gunnery
-Missiles
-Drones

In particular, your tank skills (both of them) must be very good just to survive a bit longer on the field.

Everyone also says "variable damage types". This is very hard to do on the fly since it takes 10 seconds to change types. If the enemy gang is mixed race, which is almost always, then they are the same as everyone else basically. So I don't buy into that too much.

Minmatar ships have finally been given a little life, Gallente ships need that next I think.


ZiggyXX
Posted - 2010.06.21 05:55:00 - [77]
 

Minmatar--FTW BIATCH!!!

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.21 07:55:00 - [78]
 

Quote:

You are forgetting:
1. Damage types.
2. Cap usage (Matari guns use no cap), an abaddon without cap mods is dead.
3. Tank. Whilst a Mael can happily use lows for damage mods, an abaddon cannot so easily



1. Second to Caldari, since Minmatar damage are split

2. Guns use no cap but ships are not only made to fire bullets. The second you start using anything but bullets, the hard capped Minmatar cap shows.
We don't get "zero cap" weapons and that's it, we also get lowered cap limits in the same package.
Quite skipped by yours truly (why?) but determinant factor.

3. A Mael is born and has bonuses as shield tank, it's just obvious it got easy lows for damage mods. BTW without damage mods the same Mael is horrible. IE the versatility (the only not nerfed Minmatar feature) has its price.

I also tend to fly Amarr and Caldari and Amarr ships tend to pack a punch even without going so much all out to the extreme in damage mods.


Quote:

The Mael is just a very impressive BS under many circumstances.



It's impressively slow for being a Minmatar ship, even when shield tanked, that's true.


Quote:

What? Very impressive alpha and dps



Impressive alpha YES, IF you are within quite strict parameters of range and transversal. Having high alpha counts nothing if you cannot apply it, the difficulty of applying perfect alpha is what evens out with other races lower effort to get their nominal damage up.

DPS, no. Not even in PvE, where you can gather statistics about sustained DPS.


Quote:
I am not going to argue against the drake. It's very ... boring ;)


Drake is THE EvE BC, enough that I have bought the BPO to make them.
Boring = yes, win = yes and that's what counts. From gate camping to soloing C3 WHs, it's the ship to go for maximum versatility and lowest training time.


Quote:

it's just that I find it difficult to find an as obvious flaw with Minmatar ships as with Gallente for example.



Why, is being flawed something good enough that other races should also become flawed?
If Gallente ships are flawed they should be fixed to be on par with the other 3 races, not vice-versa.


Quote:

Maybe ccp should balance all the races based on how they preform in the AT kinda like how blizzard rebalanced all classes in wow based on how they do in the arena



That's what shows a ret4rded developer vs one that it's not.


Quote:

I can come up with many situations where I would rather be in the Maelstrom. Not that the 'baddon is bad. The Mael is just a very impressive BS under many circumstances.



Mael follows the Minmatar limits of being good for smaller encounters.
How does it feel to train for 1-2 years a race just to discover your capitals SUCK despite taking 30% longer to train?
Amarr have it hard in the middle sized ships but then are THE scaling up fleet race at BS and beyond.
In fact I am going to cross train Amarr because I want to feel actually worth a sh!t in a cap fleet, not playing just the "Primaried => dead" part.

Yankunytjatjara
Amarr
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2010.06.21 09:01:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 21/06/2010 09:02:50
Originally by: Marz Ghola
Must train:
-Shield tank
-Armor tank
-Gunnery
-Missiles
-Drones

Amarr equivalent must train the same points for, in your order:
- curse, omen (lol), zealot
- obvious
- idem
- khanid ships
- geddon, arbitrator hulls

It's not a racial weakness.

About the tank whines: minmatar don't tank, they speed tank. Frankly you don't need perfect tanking skills with minnies. You need perfect navigation skills (a much shorter path).

To whoever still thinks that scorch is great, I invite you to try it and see how long your range advantage lasts against minnie ships. If you are a RRBS blobber though this does not count: when your opponents are moron that don't move, that is.

If you can't beat it, embrace it. I was amarr. I became minnie before the AC buff - they were already the best. Now it's fotm.

PS - split weapons are a pro, not a con. The ruppie is the best cruiser in game for a reason.

ApollyN
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2010.06.21 09:17:00 - [80]
 

Love the thread,

-Minny used to be ugly redheaded stepchild and finally they get some good ships and tears all over.

-Tempest - first to die in fleet battles cos it has less buffer than any other BS
-'Phoon - Split dmg - more skills needed
-Sleip - great dmg but who actively tanks these? - wasted shield boost bonus
-All t2 armour tankers have abysmal resist holes (who needs 92.5 EM resist when kin, exp and therm (to some extent) are so
bad? - Lookin at Wolf etc

-They are high end ships that need good maneuvering and skill to use, not just MWD on, approach, web like blasters or lock, click launcher like missiles. Vaga is great until its caught, skill is in not getting caught

-General mix of armour tanks, shield tanks, drones, arties and missiles means twice as much skills needed to fly the minny ships compared to gallente (drones, armour, blaster), Amarr(armour, lasers), Caldari (missiles, shields).

-Have less armour and shields than any other race generally.

Not surprised people with high sp get excellent results form these ships, they are hard to fly but can deliver superbly.

Alt Tabbed
Posted - 2010.06.21 09:43:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Watching AT8, I was thinking:

Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones.
Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps.
Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types.

Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue.

What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)?




Grass is always greener at the other side isn't it?

Maybe that's because it rains more there. Laughing


Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.06.21 10:03:00 - [82]
 

wait wait wait,

minmatar move fast, shoot hard, have good tackle...

you've never mentioned having strong tanks or solid ECM offensive modules, right, minmatar go one way only - straight to enemy lines and then either reprocessing plant or rig manufacturing.

minmatar ships make decent rigs.

GOLEMs have much higher life expectancy, and drakes fit enormous tank over DPS. Ammar sometimes have less speed, but far more passive and active tank than minmatar. Weird slot layout gives minmatar no chance to tank.

Demolishar
Posted - 2010.06.21 10:22:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Opertone
wait wait wait,

minmatar move fast, shoot hard, have good tackle...

you've never mentioned having strong tanks or solid ECM offensive modules, right, minmatar go one way only - straight to enemy lines and then either reprocessing plant or rig manufacturing.



Minmatar ships have just as much tank as anything else you shove a 1600mm plate on. Minmatar T2 shield resists are godlike which leads to great tank on their T2 ships. They have long range webs as their racial EWAR and these are good for catching the FOTM nano ships. And they can use ECM drones.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.06.21 10:34:00 - [84]
 

I can't believe I'm reading a thread about Minmatar being overpowered.
They have (on average) weaker tanks and lower dps, their speed advantage got nerfed badly. Sure some nice changes have been made to the guns (which was very much needed) but they are in no way stronger than other races. Of course some ships will shine and others will suck, which is the same for all races.

Guns not using cap? Sure, it's nice but how often do you become totally neuted out? Not to mention that without cap you usually can't move in range anyway.

Picking damage types? Don't make me laugh. This is realistically NEVER done in midfight and barely ever beforehand. Besides, everyone uses barrage anyway which means there's no option. And as has been said before, resists are fairly equal across the board anyway and fights don't last long enough to find out the weakest resist which could often be anything if people plugged the holes.

Personally I was always minmatar specced but I crosstrained to Amarr (before the AC changes). God I love Scorch. I also fly all T2 frigs and all T2 and T3 cruisers in game and tbh other than Gallente blaster issues (only on some ships) there are no real problems with any race in my opinion.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2010.06.21 10:59:00 - [85]
 

Blasters are "I'm sitting on your head PWNing your face" guns.

Why are you *****ing about them not being "I have a crap tank, I gotta keep moving" guns?

Learn your weapon system, use them correctly.

You want to move and shoot? Train up a race that does that.

Can't make it to your target cause you are slow as a turtle? Stop fitting so many plates.

CCP punish the foolish. Whining on forums will get you changes. I suspect you'll earn greater range and lose your incredible dps.

I will not be happy to learn of such a change. I can pick any weapon type, I pick according to task.

If there is a big ship to take down fast, blasters = best choice.

Wont be if you can't learn how to use them.


ObviousTroll Alt
Gallente
Hulkageddon Orphanage
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.06.21 11:30:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Watching AT8, I was thinking:

Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones.
Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps.
Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types.

Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue.

What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)?


Duct Tape becomes brittle and weak in the cold of space.

Klausan
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.06.21 11:53:00 - [87]
 

They dont have that many good PvE ships Sad

Marz Ghola
Minmatar
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2010.06.21 12:07:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Yankunytjatjara
Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 21/06/2010 09:02:50
Originally by: Marz Ghola
Must train:
-Shield tank
-Armor tank
-Gunnery
-Missiles
-Drones

Amarr equivalent must train the same points for, in your order:
- curse, omen (lol), zealot
- obvious
- idem
- khanid ships
- geddon, arbitrator hulls

It's not a racial weakness.

About the tank whines: minmatar don't tank, they speed tank. Frankly you don't need perfect tanking skills with minnies. You need perfect navigation skills (a much shorter path).

To whoever still thinks that scorch is great, I invite you to try it and see how long your range advantage lasts against minnie ships. If you are a RRBS blobber though this does not count: when your opponents are moron that don't move, that is.

If you can't beat it, embrace it. I was amarr. I became minnie before the AC buff - they were already the best. Now it's fotm.

PS - split weapons are a pro, not a con. The ruppie is the best cruiser in game for a reason.


The point being overall, minmatar must train the most amount of skills vs. all other races. I am aware of what to train with other races as I fly most. And yes, you do need excellent tank skills as your comparisons are too linear to be realistic. This is not amarr vs. minmatar. I have never been in any engagement in low sec against an enemy fleet that flew all minmatar, or all amarr, etc.

Regarding the ruppy being the best cruiser, you would be broke for life trying to sell that BS to any good arby pilot who fits TD's like they should.

Fact is, if you want mobility warfare and do a number of things "OK" then do Minmatar, but train longer for it. If you want to put out sickening tons and piles of DPS and tank like a mean mf'er, then do Amarr. It is more a matter of what role to fill for a group than any of this "amarr need a buff, we can't beat minmatar" nonsense.

Nice thing is, once you have trained up Minmatar nicely, you can easily train up other races to fill in the holes of the minmatar line-up. Like bc/bs that don't melt like butter in a furnace among other things.


Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2010.06.21 12:22:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Wacktopia on 21/06/2010 12:26:36
All this talk of resists and Minny flavour-of-the-month just reminds me of the reason I chose to fly Gallente :)

You know, Minmatar ships are just like those annoying flies you cannot kill in the summer time. What you really want is a beefed-up hero ship that you can stick in the fight and scream something like "yeehaaaa leerroyyyy! Yippee-ki-yay futhermuckers!" and not care if you win or lose.

Cozmik R5
Minmatar
Dock 94
Posted - 2010.06.21 12:49:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Klausan
They dont have that many good PvE ships Sad


Ever done L4 missions in a Sleipnir? It's a complete joke.


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