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Lirinas
Posted - 2010.06.18 07:01:00 - [1]
 

I've played EVE since beta. I've been through every expansion that's come out. For whatever reason, this expansion, Tyrannis and PI has infuriated me to such a degree that I want to leave EVE for a couple years. *sighs* no I likely won't leave, but I do need to rant - and that's something I don't do often.

Now, I've played-around with PI since it was originally introduced son SiSi back several months ago, and watched it evolve. It looked promising, and it was nice to indulge my sim city instincts, with a dash of a pipe dream style of game.

It was a bit rough around the edges, and I posted some of my thoughts, but otherwise tinkered around with it as I had the time, expecting something wonderful out it. Not wonderful as in something to earn oodles of money, but something different to play with.

However after a point, PI stopped evolving. Progress on it seemed to stop at some sort of half-finished idea, with the barely-working system we have right now on TQ.

PI works, but it doesn't work well. Planets don't seem to be well balanced for resources. Bugs that I saw (and I think even reported) on SiSi with PI over a month ago were are still present in the current build. But overall, the whole PI thing is a tedious, exercise in extreme tediousness.

Now, I'm in Highsec most of the time lately, because I simply don't have a lot of free time to play. I like to simply hop on occasionally, tend to my industry stuff, scan-down some exploration sites, and log out. However, if you want to do any sort of PI in High Sec, you need to be constantly micro-managing the extractors on your planets and constantly be moving materials from Planet A to B to C just to get a process going.

Then there's how many strange design decisions (or incomplete balancing?) that makes me wonder how this expansion saw the light of day. Customs outposts, they're bigger than my Transports, bigger than my Orca... damn near as big as my freighter, yet they hold only 25k worth of cargo? Storage Structures on planets are completely useless because CPU is almost completely useless except in a tiny handful of situations. Not to mention that any sort of planetary storage is like the proverbial shoebox as for how much it can store. 10,000 cubic meters is TINY for storage. That might be the capacity of 3-5 Standard Semi Trailers worth of cargo. We're building on PLANETS. A Real-Life grain Silo would easily have as much or more capacity than the storage we have access to in PI.

Now, people will just say, "If you don't like it, don't play with it." Well, that's part of what I'll be doing, but like it or not, it's going to negatively affect me regardless due to already skyrocketing prices on POS fuel, which in turn starts a chain reaction where everything is going to be affected.

Which then I go back to, "Why does this tick me off so much? It's not like I can't afford the stuff." I'm wealthy, and the extra costs won't prevent me from doing anything. I think the biggest thing is just how disappointed with this expansion I am. I was hoping for something new and exciting, and it's fallen so short of my expectations, and a sense of betrayal even. PI wasn't ready yet, something that you don't notice at first, but when you start working with it for several weeks you see how shaky the system is. I really think PI should have been delayed at least a month, possibly more.

strcpy
Posted - 2010.06.18 08:45:00 - [2]
 

Agree with you
Eve is not just a game it is a phenomenon but sometimes they fail. Lets hope they will fix the idea of PI and let free universe to rise.

Derelicht
Posted - 2010.06.18 10:02:00 - [3]
 

tl;dr

Ratchman
Posted - 2010.06.18 10:41:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Ratchman on 18/06/2010 10:41:49
I will agree with you in that it does need some refinement. The micromanagement is a little bit of a chore. The congestion on links needs a little thought, as I've only just realised that, depending on the cycle I pick, I can inadvertantly overload my links. A warning that this will happen might be nice. It does tell you if there is an immediate conflict, but not if there is one that COULD happen.

A means of queuing up jobs might be nice, so they don't need constant attention. Something similar to the training queue would suffice. Now some of you might say that this means everyone will just constantly go for the shortest, highest-yield cycle, but that does tend to overload links, so there is a natural limit on that anyway. It might result in a minor efficiency boost, but it shouldn't be significant in any way.

The trouble is that CCP wants to avoid macroers, yet this is a passive source of income, so there's a delicate balance that needs to be maintained.

There is a lot of things I do like about it though. It is a steady income to supplement my other revenue streams (although being able to access a few more planets would have been nice, 6 seems too few). It also provides somewhere other than gates for PVP to exist in losec.

It is an interesting addition, but it does need a little tinkering with to get it just right.

Utremi Fasolasi
Gallente
La Dolce Vita
Posted - 2010.06.18 11:09:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Lirinas
Customs outposts, they're bigger than my Transports, bigger than my Orca... damn near as big as my freighter, yet they hold only 25k worth of cargo?


You seem to be assuming that you are the only pilot using said Customs post. Rolling Eyes It is 25k *per pilot* Cool

Lirinas
Posted - 2010.06.18 16:18:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: strcpy
Agree with you
Eve is not just a game it is a phenomenon but sometimes they fail. Lets hope they will fix the idea of PI and let free universe to rise.


A good way of putting that, strcpy.
Originally by: Ratchman
Edited by: Ratchman on 18/06/2010 10:41:49
I will agree with you in that it does need some refinement. The micromanagement is a little bit of a chore. The congestion on links needs a little thought, as I've only just realised that, depending on the cycle I pick, I can inadvertantly overload my links. A warning that this will happen might be nice. It does tell you if there is an immediate conflict, but not if there is one that COULD happen.

A means of queuing up jobs might be nice, so they don't need constant attention. Something similar to the training queue would suffice. Now some of you might say that this means everyone will just constantly go for the shortest, highest-yield cycle, but that does tend to overload links, so there is a natural limit on that anyway. It might result in a minor efficiency boost, but it shouldn't be significant in any way.

The trouble is that CCP wants to avoid macroers, yet this is a passive source of income, so there's a delicate balance that needs to be maintained.

There is a lot of things I do like about it though. It is a steady income to supplement my other revenue streams (although being able to access a few more planets would have been nice, 6 seems too few). It also provides somewhere other than gates for PVP to exist in losec.

It is an interesting addition, but it does need a little tinkering with to get it just right.


You hit a lot of my specific complaints right on the head. Route congestion, and requirements are laughable. Route upgrades are only somewhat useful - most of the time it's better to run 2 (or more) cheap routes than it is to upgrade a single route, and I've never upgraded any route beyond the 3rd or 4th level. There's a lot of brainless visual cues that are missing (or poorly implemented) from the interface. As one person put it, "How much is it to ask for a simple red X being placed on-top of a extractor/factory that's not currently routing it's materials anywhere)

Then there's the Micromanagement and CLICKING! Something actually snapped inside of me a couple nights ago as I was refreshing my 50th extractor, for the 2nd or 3rd time that day (out of the 100ish that I have between my accounts). A voice said, "This just isn't fun in the slightest." and I logged out and haven't even had the desire to log-in for the last few days. *sighs*



Originally by: Utremi Fasolasi
Originally by: Lirinas
Customs outposts, they're bigger than my Transports, bigger than my Orca... damn near as big as my freighter, yet they hold only 25k worth of cargo?


You seem to be assuming that you are the only pilot using said Customs post. Rolling Eyes It is 25k *per pilot* Cool


You got me on that one Utremi, good point Smile

Badmin
Posted - 2010.06.18 16:26:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Badmin on 18/06/2010 16:32:37

I havent played as nearly as you have, but in general industry in EVE is a point n click game. You click SUBMIT you get Product B, period.

Mining is the exception which forces you to think out the logistics of using other people to attain a goal. Shooting certain roids in certain belts yeilds better effects and with more people the bonus's grow.

I would have liked a less calculated approach and a bit more fun thrown in, but for now the goal is to apparently reward the most tedious behavior; not the most skilled, or the most well thought out.

Case in point: even highsec planets can yield astronomical amount of resourses if done in 30 minute cycles. Why?

I think CCP can do better than setting ur timer on ur stove to remind u to change out the cycles! Be creative! Things that could have made the cycle's a bit better would be things such as seen in other games where a mini game or some sort of random choice makes the benefits either better or lesser depending on your choice.

Regardless, theres got to be a solution to the carpel-tunnel inducing behavior that is in place now.

Tierius Fro
Posted - 2010.06.18 18:03:00 - [8]
 

One change I would like to see is the ability to set all extractors on a single planet, with one action. Why can't I just right-click on the CC, and set all extractors to the same cycle?

Shurikane
Posted - 2010.06.18 18:05:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Tierius Fro
One change I would like to see is the ability to set all extractors on a single planet, with one action. Why can't I just right-click on the CC, and set all extractors to the same cycle?


Word to that. I very often cycle all my extractors to the same deposit type, so having quick-access shortcuts would be a handy little things.

Same goes for routes. I'd appreciate batching of routes since I can sometimes get as many as 16 extractors all routing to the same place.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.06.18 18:37:00 - [10]
 

I played with it for the first time last night....

1) It seems they built macro-ability into it with the 30 min cycle yielding so much higher than the longer cycles. Why? Do they want macro-bots dominating?

I didn't run the exact numbers, but it seemd to me that a bot in high sec running 30 min cycles would WAY out produce someone in low sec running 23 hour cycles.

2) Starting each extractor is suck.

3) Sucks we can't upgrade a CC in place rather than tearing out the whole infrastructure.

4) I want to be able to stop an extractor mid process. Let's assume I have plans for saturday, so Friday night I throw on a 23 hour cycle. The plans fall through, so Sat morning I want to switch the extractors to 30 min cycles to change the output by an order of magnitude. Can't.


What we have now is an annoying click fest that will greatly benefit the macroers that have bots running 30 min cycles 23x7.


menacemyth
Minmatar
Onyx Brotherhood
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2010.06.18 19:05:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
I played with it for the first time last night....

1) It seems they built macro-ability into it with the 30 min cycle yielding so much higher than the longer cycles. Why? Do they want macro-bots dominating?

I didn't run the exact numbers, but it seemd to me that a bot in high sec running 30 min cycles would WAY out produce someone in low sec running 23 hour cycles.

2) Starting each extractor is suck.



They did make extractors restart automatically for a while on SiSi. That makes the differences between 5hr and 23hr cycles pretty insignificant, so it only benefits the person doing the 5hr durations.

Doing PI with macro bots will be easy with 23hr durations, but not so easy with the 5hr durations as you need to pick new spots to do your extracting, and those spots are only identified by various colors on the map. Not to mention it would require moving your spaceports every 5hrs or else use a ton of cpu/pg. I would be interested to know how the macro makers sort that out.

Anyway, you can't have extractors auto-restarting without making it more advantageous for macro botters or ppl that don't work. ugh

Vasundhara
Posted - 2010.06.18 19:19:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa

2) Starting each extractor is suck.



I can only imagine this is to keep PI income from being too passive and hence the naive approach is to have a time consuming and repedative element to it. The real result is that it creates an strong incentive to fully automate the mouse clicks making massive gains for people using a bot, and more meager output for the legit players using 5 hour or 23 hour cycles.

If they can make it so you can at least do extractors in batches by type I'd be content to call what they have a good first cut at PI.

Tsabrock
Gallente
Circle of Friends
Posted - 2010.06.18 19:56:00 - [13]
 

I've played with PI since it hit Singularity too. The current clicky-fest system we have now always felt like a placeholder, and I kept waiting for something new to get implemented, but it never happened.

What I feel should be done in regards to extractors is this: Throw-out the long cycle duration entirely, and keep only a single extraction cycle (30 minutes I'm thinking). Instead the extractor has a simple on/off switch, and the extraction rate is determined by a sliding value that controls how expensive an extractor is to operate. Every extraction cycle, the extractor deducts ISK from you character (in terms of fuel/manpower/whatever). The better your extraction rate, the higher these costs would be.

And other thought I had was that lowsec/nullsec/WHS systems would be progressively more expensive to either run or set-up. Yes, highsec planets have fewer resources, but they would conceivably be easier to secure manpower and resources for. In a system with NO people within light years of your current location, it should be much more expensive to at least set-up the colony.

Vildrin
Entwi De Maila
Posted - 2010.06.18 20:04:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Vildrin on 18/06/2010 20:06:08
What would you's think of this system or a similar one if it was implemented?

Idea Forum

Edit: Fixed link I think

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.06.18 20:42:00 - [15]
 

To stop it from being pure passive income(datacores), they make it a click fest. Making it a click fest means it becomes yet another oppertunity for cheaters that use bots to earn incomes not achievable by those that actually have to sleep and/or work from time to time.

Scanner717
Posted - 2010.06.18 22:06:00 - [16]
 

What is really kinda stupid here is that CCP put alot of eggs in this basket. POS,Outpost, Sov structures now have an availablity question which will make it even harder for a young alliance to get a foot hold in 0.0. The only big winners with PI is going to be the WH folks. Given CCP's horrid track record regarding development of a feature after its inital launch I have a feeling we'll see very little movement on this for several months.

The MW math of these PI units is next to bizzare. Upgrading a link is just about stupid because it cost just as much as a completely new link. You can place your command center on the north pole and run everything through a spaceport elsewhere, which begs the question, why did they make the command center itself so completely useless.

Uma Shakti
Posted - 2010.06.19 10:28:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Lirinas
For whatever reason, this expansion, Tyrannis and PI has infuriated me to such a degree that I want to leave EVE for a couple years. *sighs* no I likely won't leave, but I do need to rant - and that's something I don't do often.


I actually am going to let my subscription lapse at the end of this month. It's just not as fun as it used to be. Maybe I'll feel differently some time in the future. I'll check back in a year and see how things are looking.

Kirja
R.U.S.H
Red Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.19 10:28:00 - [18]
 

I think that with PI CCP implemented mechanic but forgot about gameplay and fun.

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2010.06.19 13:02:00 - [19]
 

The 30min cycles will give you more initially, but they quickly deplete the supply, moving the thing to another high yield location is going to cost you isk (45k for the extractor) not to mention your links are going to be way to long. Your going to hemorrhage isk anyway you turn it. The 23 hour cycles are a lot more forgiving with the resource depletion. But you'll need a lot more extractors per factory.

The amount of interaction required for PI is a lot more then Datacore farming, moon mining, or production/research, but a lot less then for mining. There are equalizing points such as an absolute limit on how much interaction you can do, safety, hauling, etc.

To be honest the average price of P2 POS materials will probably stabilize around 2k isk eventually. Now we just have spikes because there aren't enough characters fully trained and placed their production lines optimally. Come back in nine months and the market will have evened out...

To be honest, initially the idea was fun/novel enough, but the sparkliness is fading. I've pretty much got a perfect setup, the only changes are in two weeks an additional planet and in five two additional extractors (and rebuilding every damned colony). That's pretty much it, the rest is boring once a day resetting the huge stack of extractors for each character.

The only interesting thing is the complete change in the markets, those will give me more then enough fun until the next expansion. Alliances able to supply their own NPC POS fuels, not going as often to High sec to stock up on those items, the effects that is going to have is going to be very interesting.

Lirinas
Posted - 2010.06.20 17:48:00 - [20]
 

Vildren and Tsabrock, I like both of your ideas, and both could work together very easily. An improved interface for the CC that you could better control your entire colony, and improved extractors both at the same time!

And Kirja, you said it right. They forgot to actually make PI "Fun".

Paul Hansen
Posted - 2010.06.21 08:51:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
I played with it for the first time last night....

1) It seems they built macro-ability into it with the 30 min cycle yielding so much higher than the longer cycles. Why? Do they want macro-bots dominating?

I didn't run the exact numbers, but it seemd to me that a bot in high sec running 30 min cycles would WAY out produce someone in low sec running 23 hour cycles.




The reason they did this is they are trying to revitalise lowsec, what the don't realise is most of the population can't be bothered with intensive grinding for isk, so are going to probably (mostly) use the 23 hour cycle.

PI will not fix lowsec being sparsely populated CCP... you're going to have to do something better

Zaruzada
Posted - 2010.07.17 04:43:00 - [22]
 

PI is just too accessible. Any man and his dog can swamp planets on the best resource spots with a chitty little command centre after only a couple of weeks of play and training. The skills should have higher prerequisites like mining foreman Level 5 and maybe a few others to put the newbies off. Then the rewards should be higher to compensate otherwise this will become nothing more than a small accessory to ISK revenue similar to research agents and datacores. For the time spent managing PI instalations vs running misions or mining it moves this fantasic innovation down the scale to it just being a newby thing to earn a few bucks. Lets face it, we all want to maximise our income to stay in the game and realistically each mouse click should bring us in about 5000 LaughingISK

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.17 07:14:00 - [23]
 

If as a gamedesigner invented the PI gameplay, I would resign in shame.

- Selecting a planet and setting up PI installations is an interesting mini-game
- Market interaction with PI materials is an interesting mini-game
- Producing materials on-planet isn't a game at all. A game requires decisions, problem-solving, challenges. Producing materials only requires your presence and a lot of clicks that don't involve any decision.

Perhaps it is a result of the scrum method, that insist on producing workable deliverables at a certain schedule. They did deliver some workable, just something that is not a game, let alone a fun game.

Forge Trader
Posted - 2010.07.17 14:11:00 - [24]
 

On a forum like this, those with complaints will be more likely to post, than those that are pleased with PI. Those who are satisfied wont even read the forum posts.

So, I will describe some of the things I like about PI (although I do find the multiple clicking tedious, and have found the only solution is to limit PI building to just one character :)). This means PI for now is not a main game line, but a secondary one. Btw, I also find running missions tedious beyond a certain point.

It is cool to be able to make your own POS fuel and T2 components. I get a kick out of watching my "genetically enhanced livestock" coming off the assembly line, for example. Then, trying to find a good price in a fairly unstable market. Then, trying to get to a market without getting ganked, including in hisec.

PI now enables me to plan to set up a POS in wh space with my small corps. No need to transport POS fuels. Greatly adds to sustainability of POS for us.

PI has definitely encouraged more trips to losec & 0.0. In fact, in losec & 0.0 you can greatly reduce the tedium of clicking by using fewer extractors for production. It is rather easy to set up a PI facility in losec, even with only an improved or advanced command center, that will have two p2 processors going continuously, with 8 or fewer extractors. Very productive.

PI has shown me some things I did not realize existed in Eve, in terms of products and production cycles. It has also gotten me back into losec in a big way, after moving out of losec last year because of too many pirates per system. PI addresses the problem of earning isk in losec not being worth the risk, by enabling the player to wait to go there until he can pick up a high value cargo. I think this is a big deal, as it is the main reason I was driven out of losec earlier in my Eve career.

If you are looking for pvp, PI offers a great chance. (I am not going to list here all the new possibilities, as I do not want 1000's of players trying to gank me :).

The system sure looks like it has a lot of flexibility for the future. Looking at other space games, or even games with a somewhat similar mechanic like, maybe, one of the Empire games, there are lots of places to go with PI in the future.


Lirinas
Posted - 2010.07.21 19:29:00 - [25]
 

Forge, the complaint that most people have with PI is not so much the concept of it, but the horrible interface and the tedious maintenance that comes with it. Merdaneth says it well.

Originally by: Merdaneth
If as a gamedesigner invented the PI gameplay, I would resign in shame.

- Selecting a planet and setting up PI installations is an interesting mini-game
- Market interaction with PI materials is an interesting mini-game
- Producing materials on-planet isn't a game at all. A game requires decisions, problem-solving, challenges. Producing materials only requires your presence and a lot of clicks that don't involve any decision.

Perhaps it is a result of the scrum method, that insist on producing workable deliverables at a certain schedule. They did deliver some workable, just something that is not a game, let alone a fun game.


I particularly like your last point "... isn't a game at all." Another person in another post said that any designer that deliberately implements needless clicking and/or busywork as a game balance should be fired.

To be honest, I don't think what we got was deliberately a bad design decision by CCP. I think we just got a half-baked system that was never finished. CCP has hinted in the CSM notes that they plan to be "fixing" the problems with PI - possibly implementing something similar to what Tsabrock suggested nearly a month ago (points up in her post). But when these "improvements" will hit is anybody's guess atm.

Svarty II
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.22 00:22:00 - [26]
 

PI in it's current form is a great sack of donkey gonads. I agree with the people who say that it's not a game at all, and is instead a mindless clickfest.

Darkwolf
Caldari
TOG Empire
Combat Mining and Logistics
Posted - 2010.07.22 00:31:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Darkwolf on 22/07/2010 00:31:45
Originally by: Lirinas
Not to mention that any sort of planetary storage is like the proverbial shoebox as for how much it can store. 10,000 cubic meters is TINY for storage. That might be the capacity of 3-5 Standard Semi Trailers worth of cargo. We're building on PLANETS. A Real-Life grain Silo would easily have as much or more capacity than the storage we have access to in PI.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_freight_shipping_container#Specifications

A standard 40-foot shipping container (a normal semi-trailer can carry one of these) has a volume of 67.5m3. Your launchpad holds the equivalent of 148 semi-trailer's worth of cargo.

10,000m3 is about equal to the volume of a soccer field filled to a depth of 1.37 meters. Silos are typically a lot smaller than that, due to weight concerns.

Just so you know.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.22 01:10:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: stoicfaux on 22/07/2010 02:48:23
Originally by: Darkwolf


10,000m3 is about equal to the volume of a soccer field filled to a depth of 1.37 meters. Silos are typically a lot smaller than that, due to weight concerns.

Just so you know.


Typical Wal-mart store is about 205,000 square feet. Give it a 10' ceiling and that's 2,050,000 cubic feet or ~58,000m3 of space.

At the very least, planetside storage is a bit underwhelming.


edit: Fixed bad math mistake involving powers. Better double check the numbers on the proposed land war in Asia while I'm at it.


 

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