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blankseplocked The long-awaited solution to the Learning Skills Problem?
 
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Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2010.06.17 22:34:00 - [1]
 

Pardon the repost, but I just wanted to make sure this suggestion, if not previously thought up, ended up in the right hands.

From this 11-page and growing thread in Skills Discussions: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1290489&page=11#323

Originally by: Tripoli
Originally by: Jenny Cameron
Originally by: Pantload
About the "Standing in the line at the Supermarket" metaphor...I don't believe it really illustrates the nature of the problem here.

I actually like it. Standing in teh line you don't get anything yet, you can't eat or drink the things you want to buy (read: skills that actually allow you do do more things in the game), you just wait .. and wait .. and wait.
Actually, that gives me an interesting idea. What if they made it to where the learning skills actually did something for you other than raise attributes? For example, what if they allowed you to use certain levels of combat boosters, or better implants, rather than relying mainly on the Cybernetics skill?
So far, this has received some pretty positive feedback, and I think it solves many complaints from both sides of the argument.

So, how about it? Let's come up with some interesting secondary benefits to be had by training the learning skills. Benefits could be making the learning skills prerequsites for other skills, devices, implants, etc., or you can make each skill have a bonus of some sort that helps you in a way unrelated to skill training speed.

Party Scout
Posted - 2010.06.17 22:50:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Tripoli
Pardon the repost, but I just wanted to make sure this suggestion, if not previously thought up, ended up in the right hands.

From this 11-page and growing thread in Skills Discussions: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1290489&page=11#323

Originally by: Tripoli
Originally by: Jenny Cameron
Originally by: Pantload
About the "Standing in the line at the Supermarket" metaphor...I don't believe it really illustrates the nature of the problem here.

I actually like it. Standing in teh line you don't get anything yet, you can't eat or drink the things you want to buy (read: skills that actually allow you do do more things in the game), you just wait .. and wait .. and wait.
Actually, that gives me an interesting idea. What if they made it to where the learning skills actually did something for you other than raise attributes? For example, what if they allowed you to use certain levels of combat boosters, or better implants, rather than relying mainly on the Cybernetics skill?
So far, this has received some pretty positive feedback, and I think it solves many complaints from both sides of the argument.

So, how about it? Let's come up with some interesting secondary benefits to be had by training the learning skills. Benefits could be making the learning skills prerequsites for other skills, devices, implants, etc., or you can make each skill have a bonus of some sort that helps you in a way unrelated to skill training speed.


Learning skills giving something actually tangible and useful to the game??? are you kidding me?!?!?!

It's actually a pretty good idea... I would train charisma for a 0.1% tax reduction per level, or 0.2% ISK mission reward per level. Perception for a 0.2% tracking speed bonus per level, etc. Even if they are tiny bonuses, at least I feel I'm getting something with those skills.

Good idea.

Pantload
Gallente
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Flatline.
Posted - 2010.06.18 17:35:00 - [3]
 

I support this idea as a possible compromise solution to the "Learning Skill problem". I like this very much more than proposals to out-rightly remove the learning skills from the game. I don't favor the removal solution at all. This proposal, though, could really add some appeal to learning skills making them seem like less of a grind to new players and at the same time it doesn't punish older players who already spent the time to train them.

Cheers,
PL

Nisanthro
Posted - 2010.06.20 11:13:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Nisanthro on 20/06/2010 11:13:19
Originally by: Tripoli
Pardon the repost, but I just wanted to make sure this suggestion, if not previously thought up, ended up in the right hands.

From this 11-page and growing thread in Skills Discussions: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1290489&page=11#323

Originally by: Tripoli
Originally by: Jenny Cameron
Originally by: Pantload
About the "Standing in the line at the Supermarket" metaphor...I don't believe it really illustrates the nature of the problem here.



I actually like it. Standing in teh line you don't get anything yet, you can't eat or drink the things you want to buy (read: skills that actually allow you do do more things in the game), you just wait .. and wait .. and wait.
Actually, that gives me an interesting idea. What if they made it to where the learning skills actually did something for you other than raise attributes? For example, what if they allowed you to use certain levels of combat boosters, or better implants, rather than relying mainly on the Cybernetics skill?
So far, this has received some pretty positive feedback, and I think it solves many complaints from both sides of the argument.

So, how about it? Let's come up with some interesting secondary benefits to be had by training the learning skills. Benefits could be making the learning skills prerequsites for other skills, devices, implants, etc., or you can make each skill have a bonus of some sort that helps you in a way unrelated to skill training speed.


No.

James Rehnold
Amarr
Expense Solutions
Posted - 2010.06.20 11:57:00 - [5]
 

How about you choose the secondary effect? For example, when you train Intelligence, you get to choose from a list of secondary effects. Miners, for example, could choose "Mining Excellence - +5% yield on mining lasers". Something in the lines of this.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.06.20 14:08:00 - [6]
 

Maybe I'm just being thick this morning or I skimmed over it, but I don't see how this is a solution to anything. The other problem remains, that they are mandatory early training, so a secondary affect, especially having them act as prequisites to do other things, would only make things worse in that regard.

The only fix is to remove the ability to train attributes. Give everyone the attribute bonus comparable to all learning skills at lvl5 and change the learning skills to do something different(change the names if they don't fit their new purpose), so they still give some benefit to the people who trained them. As for what bonuses should they give, I don't know. This is something I could support as an option to just getting rid of them.

Other option would be to mitigate the problem, by giving people initially most learning skills, so the time they have to spend doing them would be less and they aren't gimped in a serious way, if they choose to train other things. This way training learning skills becomes more of a true choice, since choosing not to train them early won't make a significan't difference in the short term(few months). This is more of a compromise than a final solution. You wouldn't actually have to change things that much. The issue will persist, but to a far lesser degree.

Svarty II
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.06.20 15:37:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Tripoli
The long-awaited solution to the Learning Skills Problem?

Originally by: Pantload
I support this idea as a possible compromise solution to the "Learning Skill problem"

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
The other problem remains, that they are mandatory early training, so a secondary affect, especially having them act as prequisites to do other things, would only make things worse in that regard.


What problem? Nothing to see here. Move along.

Diablo Ex
Caldari
The Devil's Reject's
Posted - 2010.06.20 15:58:00 - [8]
 

What problem?

The problem that I see is a bunch of winy noob players who have the "I want it now" mentality. Skill points (and the time it takes to get them) are the only thing of any real value in the game. If you want it now... Singularity is that way =>

Part of the "Genius" of EvE is that you get skills and you have the time invested in properly using them. The game is not about the fittings, or the skills as much as it is about the Player's skill at the game. And you just can't buy that. It takes time to learn...

Unless of course you have a learning curve which you can calibrate a laser on...

Shocked

Misanthra
Posted - 2010.06.20 16:08:00 - [9]
 

Evemon....enable sp total viewing column...hold off on watching funny or sexy videos for 30 minutes and plan a character out. Solves this whole training problem that doesn't exist except in people's heads lol..

I have made several alts all under 1.6 mil sp speed cap with 4/3 learning, very decent support, tank and weapons skills. Evemon tewaking showed me the way so that fun skills mixed quite nicely with learning. WIll get you a level 1 wiping monster if you can actually play this game and a strong level 2 starter.

NewGit
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.21 09:51:00 - [10]
 

The solution is easy. If you don't like the Learning Skills, then don't train them.

Of course, that will mean longer training times for ALL other skills you'd prefer to train, but hey, you could then start a thread about about how everyone should just be given Level 5 in all skills right from the beginning because they all take so long to train.

Aerilis
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.06.21 10:01:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Aerilis on 21/06/2010 10:01:06
ccp wants to retain new players so it can make money.
learning skills negatively impact the first weeks of a new player.
thus learning skills cost ccp money.


YOUR OTHER POINTS ARE INVALID HERP DERP.

Good idea though, I fully support it.

Svarty II
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.06.21 12:04:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Aerilis
learning skills negatively impact the first weeks of a new player.


False.

Gripen
Posted - 2010.06.21 12:04:00 - [13]
 

The only real problem is people who say that "they are mandatory early training".

Aerilis
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.06.22 02:52:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Svarty II
Originally by: Aerilis
learning skills negatively impact the first weeks of a new player.


False.


They either spend their first weeks training learning skills instead of ship/gun skills, or they end up behind.

Ivas Tiffy
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.22 03:48:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Svarty II
Originally by: Aerilis
learning skills negatively impact the first weeks of a new player.


False.


They either spend their first weeks training learning skills instead of ship/gun skills, or they end up behind.


send your friends two buddy invites.

tell them to spend three weeks training learnign skills on one account, and the other getting to know eve mechanics. after 3 weeks. start playing the finished learnign skilsl character, prolly have 4/4 and +3 implants too.

Lady Janey
Posted - 2010.06.22 05:10:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Gripen
The only real problem is people who say that "they are mandatory early training".
this is very much true. learning skills are fine as they are. you can choose to train them or not and it has no impact on which skills you can train.

Originally by: Aerilis


They either spend their first weeks training learning skills instead of ship/gun skills, or they end up behind.
Everyone is behind someone on skillpoints in this game, it has no real impact on whether you enjoy the game or not.

Aerilis
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.06.22 06:56:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Aerilis

They either spend their first weeks training learning skills instead of ship/gun skills, or they end up behind.
Everyone is behind someone on skillpoints in this game, it has no real impact on whether you enjoy the game or not.


You best be trolling, you can't possibly be this dense.
Noobs are told the "have to" train learning skills, and even if they don't have to technically, it's the best course of action for a new player.
It's also the most boring, since you can't train for fun new ships and stuff.

Best course of action != most fun course of action.
You don't want to thrust that upon new players who may still be deciding whether or not they want to sub to the game.


 

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