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Shasz
Angels of Anarchy
Posted - 2010.06.17 18:27:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Durin Sarga
Ok, so for those who are talking about an extractor being a timer, let's do a little thinking OUTSIDE the box.

An extractor is a machine which does just that, it extracts. Kind of like an oil pump. You set the rate at which it extracts and it runs. (i.e. 1500 units per hour)

A survey tells you how much material is in a given location (i.e. below your extractor there are 90,000 units)

Based on your extraction rate, and the material below (taking into account efficiency loss for extracting faster) you can CALCULATE the time to depletion.

Therefore, your extractors are not like OVENS. They operate like EXTRACTORS. This is not baking, this is more like oil drilling.

Now, let's throw into the concept the fact that planets will regenerate material over time (from what we have gathered so far it is every DT).

If you extract less than what the planet regenerates (EXT < REGEN) then you will never reach the bottom.

If you extract more than what the planet regenerates (EXT > REGEN) then you will eventually reach the bottom (may be a long time).

If you extract a LOT more than what the planet regenerates (EXT >> REGEN) then you will reach the bottom of your surveyed deposit quickly (i.e. 5-hrs)

tl;dr - Extractors are not time based, they are material based. The time is the calculated/estimated Time To Depletion (TTD). Planets regenerate, TTD gets recalculated, it appears time gets added.

Again, if any developer sees this and this is invalid, please correct me.

I'm not saying the system is bug free. There have been reports of extractors magically starting, not extracting properly, etc. These are legit. However, this TTD 'bug' I believe to NOT be a bug, but mathematics at work.



If this were true, and you come to the end of a 5 hour cycle, and it stops, you should be out of minerals, right? Because by your logic, it will either keep running beyond 5 hours because the spot has refilled some, or it will stop because you are out of minerals.

Well, when my 5 hour cycles stop (or half hour cycles), and I immediately start a new 5 hour cycle, I get solid extraction rates in the same range of extraction as before. And they run for 5 hours as advertised.




Durin Sarga
Posted - 2010.06.17 18:49:00 - [32]
 

Ok. Can someone please then point me into the thread where CCP acknowledges that this phenomena is a bug?

Thanks.

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2010.06.17 18:53:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Durin Sarga
Ok. Can someone please then point me into the thread where CCP acknowledges that this phenomena is a bug?


It is not SOP for CCP to discuss that on the forums. That is what the bug reporting system is for. However, as already stated in post #5 of this very thread:

Originally by: Pytria Le'Danness
While CCP wrote in reply to mine they are aware of the issue, but more information can never hurt.

Mathias Black
Posted - 2010.06.17 22:09:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Durin Sarga
Ok, so for those who are talking about an extractor being a timer, let's do a little thinking OUTSIDE the box.

An extractor is a machine which does just that, it extracts. Kind of like an oil pump. You set the rate at which it extracts and it runs. (i.e. 1500 units per hour)

A survey tells you how much material is in a given location (i.e. below your extractor there are 90,000 units)

Based on your extraction rate, and the material below (taking into account efficiency loss for extracting faster) you can CALCULATE the time to depletion.

Therefore, your extractors are not like OVENS. They operate like EXTRACTORS. This is not baking, this is more like oil drilling.

Now, let's throw into the concept the fact that planets will regenerate material over time (from what we have gathered so far it is every DT).

If you extract less than what the planet regenerates (EXT < REGEN) then you will never reach the bottom.

If you extract more than what the planet regenerates (EXT > REGEN) then you will eventually reach the bottom (may be a long time).

If you extract a LOT more than what the planet regenerates (EXT >> REGEN) then you will reach the bottom of your surveyed deposit quickly (i.e. 5-hrs)

tl;dr - Extractors are not time based, they are material based. The time is the calculated/estimated Time To Depletion (TTD). Planets regenerate, TTD gets recalculated, it appears time gets added.

Again, if any developer sees this and this is invalid, please correct me.

I'm not saying the system is bug free. There have been reports of extractors magically starting, not extracting properly, etc. These are legit. However, this TTD 'bug' I believe to NOT be a bug, but mathematics at work.


That's not how it works at all. The timers are just plain and simple timers. They always run exactly the same amount of time (excluding the bug) regardless of whether you have your extractor on a green section of a high sec planet or a bright white dot of a null sec planet. The extractor extracts for the amount of time you pick, and the amount of material you get is dependent on the planet type and the "warmth" of the spot on the scanner.

Durin Sarga
Posted - 2010.06.17 22:45:00 - [35]
 

Still waiting for any dev anywhere to refute this idea. Still waiting for linkage to a documented source which shows the devs recognizing the extractor cycle time issue as a bug.

All we know is that a correlation exists between the time stated (96-hr) and the total amount at the spot (i.e. 90,000 units). Both of these are listed in the survey which an extractor completes.

Now, you can run the calculation either way.

Option A: 96-hr is the fixed number. Use total extractable material to calculate extraction rate.

Option B: Extraction rate is the fixed number. Use total extractable material to calculate time remaining.

What I am saying is that EVERY TIME I run the calculation on my 'bugged' extractors the math always comes out correct.

So the numbers are linked.

If this is a bug linked to the timer ONLY then why does my amount remaining increase? Wouldn't my extractors run out of material, but keep 'running'?

If this is a bug to the whole system, then we have a MAJOR problem. People are getting a whole bunch of material without any click-fest. Cool

Seriously though, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers or push a philosophy on others. These are the observations of the three of us in our corporation running 11 extraction colonies on various materials in multiple systems. All of the extractors are experiencing the same behavior. Take what you will from these observations. We are running under the 'assumption' that this is intended behavior until otherwise 'fixed'.

Please understand that my goal is to provide additional discussion/clarification where and when possible. As i've said in other posts we just won't know until the 'bug' gets fixed or CCP puts out some official words.

Johnny cruz
Posted - 2010.06.17 23:03:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Johnny cruz on 17/06/2010 23:06:00
Originally by: Durin Sarga
Still waiting for any dev anywhere to refute this idea. Still waiting for linkage to a documented source which shows the devs recognizing the extractor cycle time issue as a bug.

All we know is that a correlation exists between the time stated (96-hr) and the total amount at the spot (i.e. 90,000 units). Both of these are listed in the survey which an extractor completes.

Now, you can run the calculation either way.

Option A: 96-hr is the fixed number. Use total extractable material to calculate extraction rate.

Option B: Extraction rate is the fixed number. Use total extractable material to calculate time remaining.

What I am saying is that EVERY TIME I run the calculation on my 'bugged' extractors the math always comes out correct.

So the numbers are linked.

If this is a bug linked to the timer ONLY then why does my amount remaining increase? Wouldn't my extractors run out of material, but keep 'running'?

If this is a bug to the whole system, then we have a MAJOR problem. People are getting a whole bunch of material without any click-fest. Cool

Seriously though, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers or push a philosophy on others. These are the observations of the three of us in our corporation running 11 extraction colonies on various materials in multiple systems. All of the extractors are experiencing the same behavior. Take what you will from these observations. We are running under the 'assumption' that this is intended behavior until otherwise 'fixed'.

Please understand that my goal is to provide additional discussion/clarification where and when possible. As i've said in other posts we just won't know until the 'bug' gets fixed or CCP puts out some official words.


bleh ccp ate my post.

short version:

As above poster stated, if your theory was correct then the 5hour cycles should cease the ability to run after 1, maybe 2 extractions - yet they do not.

Look at how much P0 your extractor takes in 2 5hour cycles, and 1/3 of a 96hour cycle (which is the equivalent of MORE than a day of extraction). If 5hour cycles do not deplete the resource completely, then your 96hour will NEVER deplete the resource, thus would NEVER turn off. No clicks required!

Yes you're thinking out of the box, but we're not talking about RL physics, we're talking about bugs :P.

Luna Cii
Posted - 2010.06.18 00:24:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Durin Sarga


If this is a bug linked to the timer ONLY then why does my amount remaining increase? Wouldn't my extractors run out of material, but keep 'running'?



You can never ever ever totally deplete a planet, You can have every player in EVE slap down an extractor on the same spot and it would still never hit 0 resources. You even linked the Dev quote in your post on the last page.

Originally by: CCP Incognito

C) There is a minimum resource level, it is defined as a percentage of the initial un-depleted value.



Also:
Originally by: CCP Incognito

Resource do deplete on Sisi, we have tested it there and on TQ by looking at the numbers behind the scenes and they are depleting correctly. But you are right there is a desired number of players able to use a single resource spot, and there is a max depletion amount. the depletion will never produce 0 resources but it will get low enough that it is a waste of time compared to moving to another planet.



So if PI worked like you said, your extractors would never shut off because you would never run out of resources.

Durin Sarga
Posted - 2010.06.18 04:02:00 - [38]
 

Thanks for the quotes from Incognito.

I still think this fits in with the general framework that I have outlined.

Every planet has a 'resource level' this level will never 'deplete' to zero. However it will decrease due to use. Assume we call this initial 'global' resource level X. And let's further assume that this is the level your extractor will display as the 'total' units each time your extractor 'surveys' the planet. Thus each time you run a survey for a given location you see X as the total amount (after the reduction for usage, if any).

From this number X (which would correlate to your 96-hr TTD total) we should be able to account for 'waste' and get the Xi of each 'faster' depletion. So far so good.

After submitting the changes the extractor begins to run and extracts N per cycle. This continues in like fashion and we see the timer go down each hour. Again, so far so good.

Now,

- The 5-hr TTD people have shown little/no problems during the day of getting their timer and 'total' for each survey to reach zero.
- The 23-hr TTD people have shown little/moderate problems getting their timer and 'total' for each survey to reach zero.
- I have heard of NO 96-hr cycles actually finishing yet. Zero.

From checking my own extractors casually before and after downtime I have noticed a marked increase in the 'total remaining' listed for each extractor.

Thus, some regeneration Y is occuring during downtime.

BUG OR NOT, we should attempt to quantify, qualify, and classify this phenomena. If it is a bug, then it's valuable information that could help CCP fix this faster. If it is NOT a bug then we should know and be aware of this variable (as well as including it in the relevant guides).

Therefore, for my part I will stop producing on one of my planets and set up an experiment. See below:

- One extractor linked to a single launchpad, Record initial total amount given, Run 5-hr TTD before and away from DT.

- One extractor linked to a single launchpad, Record initial total amount given, Run 5-hr TTD from before DT and bridging past DT.

- One extractor linked to a single launchpad, Record initial total amount given, Run 24-hr TTD from before DT and bridging past DT.

For each of these scenarios I will try to answer the following questions:

- Does the total extracted match the total given initially?
- If not, how much is it off by?
- Can this be correlated to the stated extraction rate?

Follow-up questions:

- Does the discrepancy change between Hi-sec/Lo-sec/Null-sec/WH?
- Does the discrepancy change between TTD types?

As I am not part of a null-sec alliance it will be difficult for me to repeat this experiment in null-sec. So I may need some help confirming some of this. Hopefully we can get some more answers to this bug/phenomena so there is less speculation and more concrete numbers. Good for CCP, good for us.

Thanks.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2010.06.18 04:21:00 - [39]
 

Simple solution.

Change the name of the 96h timer to "Continuous" then reset it's extraction amount to half of what it is.

This can then be the lazy PI for those that don't think wack-a-mole is "fun".

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.06.18 05:20:00 - [40]
 

same here every night the counter resets, the resource does not deplete and I don't have to manage PI! Thanks!

DT resets the counter, nice feature!

LF9000
Posted - 2010.06.18 07:40:00 - [41]
 

I set all of my extractors to 96 hours.
That was 2 weeks ago.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2010.06.18 11:20:00 - [42]
 

I have reported the bug sometime ago and the report was attached to a defect by one of CCP's bug hunter.

The point really is, do not argue if it is a bug, instead, report it and see what CCP has to say.

Luna Cii
Posted - 2010.06.18 16:16:00 - [43]
 

My 96 hour cycles are all working fine. Started them 37 hours ago, only 59 hours left. My alt however, had 3 of his 4 5 hour cycles restart. The 4th cycle ended when it was supposed to though.

Fulbert
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.18 17:24:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Durin Sarga

- I have heard of NO 96-hr cycles actually finishing yet. Zero.


That's wrong, I saw my 17 or 18 autotrophs extractors run out 4 days after the land rush. But my other extractors, including felsic magma ones, have never reset...


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