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darius mclever
Gallente
Merchants of Lore
Posted - 2010.07.03 01:32:00 - [751]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Straight Hustlin
Since you've stated that "We will not be passing judgment on what should have happened during this battle nor alter the outcome in any way"

Does that mean you will be returning the titan to white noise which they found unpiloted floating in space?

Or are we going on a double standard here?


I don't think the NC pilot that is currently sitting in it would appreciate that very much.




Who cares? CCP Grimmi said ... that no GM should have intervened with the outcome of the fight and what happened to the ship afterwards. Congratulations to WN for a new titan?

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2010.07.03 03:01:00 - [752]
 

I n s i d e . J o b . D e t e c t e d
Rolling Eyes

Josiphine Noir
Amarr
Pelican.
Veneratio Venator Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.03 04:23:00 - [753]
 

Edited by: Josiphine Noir on 03/07/2010 04:28:04
Edited by: Josiphine Noir on 03/07/2010 04:27:11
Originally by: butimtoolittle
Originally by: GM Grimmi
Here is an update regarding events which occurred during a large fleet engagement in 6NJ8-V which took place on June 16th.

Some ships were destroyed during the engagement, yet they also managed to jump to safety. This resulted in the ships reappearing in-game some time after they were destroyed. Our server-side logs represent both of the aforementioned circumstances and the final outcome was that the ships remained in game with the modules which were destroyed along with them despite kill reports being sent out showing their destruction. Modules moved to wrecks upon the ships' destruction were not duplicated, and the owners of the ships received insurance payouts for the losses. No game masters or CCP staff for that matter were involved with the revival of the ships in any way.

The underlying issue has been examined and improvements implemented that should prevent similar situations in the future.

Regarding fleet-battle reimbursement and GM intervention in them in general, we have been down that road before and it's not the way to go. This has been discussed in much detail and the consensus is that it is best to simply stay well clear of messing with fleet-battles; this fleet engagement is no exception and we will remain consistent in this stance. We will not be passing judgment on what should have happened during this battle nor alter the outcome in any way.



NOT TRUE.

about 18months or more ago there was a large fleet fight in m-0. it was during one of bobs MAX campaigns. at the time i was in KIA, the lag was terrible and lots of people logged off. KIAeddz petitioned it and said that the lag was unacceptable. ALL KIA ships were reimbursed. odd that ccp denys it. there is your precedent.


The only reason those ships were given back was because CCP was testing the new stackless IO coding, none of the players knew about it and the consequences of the testing couldnt have been forseen. I believe it was after this big event that CCP staed that they would no longer be re-embursing capital ship losses due to large fleet lag. Pull your head out of your a** please

Marlona Sky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.03 04:58:00 - [754]
 

Edited by: Marlona Sky on 03/07/2010 08:25:57
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Straight Hustlin
Since you've stated that "We will not be passing judgment on what should have happened during this battle nor alter the outcome in any way"

Does that mean you will be returning the titan to white noise which they found unpiloted floating in space?

Or are we going on a double standard here?


I don't think the NC pilot that is currently sitting in it would appreciate that very much.




Who cares? CCP Grimmi said ... that no GM should have intervened with the outcome of the fight and what happened to the ship afterwards. Congratulations to WN for a new titan?


NC was able to immediatly be on hand ready to recover all respawned super capitals with the exception of the titan that White Noise got to first. Then CCP took away said titan away from White Noise and gave it to NC.

Oh well, such is the way of things in the sand box. v0v

Blazde
Minmatar
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.03 07:44:00 - [755]
 

Edited by: Blazde on 03/07/2010 08:22:53
Originally by: butimtoolittle
NOT TRUE.

about 18months or more ago there was a large fleet fight in m-0. it was during one of bobs MAX campaigns. at the time i was in KIA, the lag was terrible and lots of people logged off. KIAeddz petitioned it and said that the lag was unacceptable. ALL KIA ships were reimbursed. odd that ccp denys it. there is your precedent.

It's only since Dominion when the lag/blackscreens/sov bugs got really crazy agin that they've had this policy.

Edit: I didn't mean to imply the extra lag was the cause of the policy change. It seems to have been a coincidence, but it's a very unfortunate coincidence.

Tyby
Gallente
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.07.03 08:31:00 - [756]
 

Edited by: Tyby on 03/07/2010 08:40:05

Originally by: Blazde

It's only since Dominion when the lag/blackscreens/sov bugs got really crazy agin that they've had this policy.

FALSE: one month or so after the m-o fight we had the e-7 fight: we had at least 3 node crashes in that fight, but yet ccp refused to reimburce any ship; the only explanation was: becose we say so Shocked

p.s. so, the "policy" was on long before dominion, at least for the "non nc" part of us Wink

Blazde
Minmatar
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.07.03 10:00:00 - [757]
 

They've always had a very tough reimbursement policy, and sadly it was never applied fairly so it depended how forcefully and how well you argued you case. However it's only since Dominion they've had this over-the-top zero-intervention policy where you have no chance of getting a ship back and they won't:

- Move stuck people even hours after a fight
- Interfere with station/sov ownership when it bugs (unless after a week or so it's still bugged and they have to)
- Reimburse ships that died hours after logging off (this used to be one of the most guaranteed scenarios for getting a reimbursement)

Marlona Sky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.03 20:04:00 - [758]
 

There was a titan that White Noise found and boarded before NC was able to. Found in the very same fashion as NC found and boarded the other super capitals that were found after down time. My question is:

If CCP are going to let the outcome of that lagbugfest stand as it is, then why did CCP take away that titan from White Noise and give it to NC?

Kra Torii
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2010.07.03 20:32:00 - [759]
 

Things are getting kinda bitter in here.

*popcorn*

Marlona Sky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.03 20:38:00 - [760]
 

Originally by: kra torii
If they are not in my coalition, I am going to say they are bitter no matter what they say, even if what they are saying is a legitimet question.

*mountain oysters*

Kra Torii
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2010.07.03 20:52:00 - [761]
 

Edited by: kra torii on 03/07/2010 20:53:24
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: kra torii
If they are not in my coalition, I am going to say they are bitter no matter what they say, even if what they are saying is a legitimet question.

*mountain oysters*



That's not what I said. You must be going blind my good sir.

What I said was:

Originally by: kra torii
Things are getting kinda bitter in here.

*popcorn*


Want some glasses, my dear?

Edit: Ok, I see where you're mistaken. I wasn't referring to you specifically. Do you think you're bitter?

Cone Filler
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.03 21:31:00 - [762]
 

Originally by: GM Grimmi
Here is an update regarding events which occurred during a large fleet engagement in 6NJ8-V which took place on June 16th.

Some ships were destroyed during the engagement, yet they also managed to jump to safety. This resulted in the ships reappearing in-game some time after they were destroyed. Our server-side logs represent both of the aforementioned circumstances and the final outcome was that the ships remained in game with the modules which were destroyed along with them despite kill reports being sent out showing their destruction. Modules moved to wrecks upon the ships' destruction were not duplicated, and the owners of the ships received insurance payouts for the losses. No game masters or CCP staff for that matter were involved with the revival of the ships in any way.

The underlying issue has been examined and improvements implemented that should prevent similar situations in the future.

Regarding fleet-battle reimbursement and GM intervention in them in general, we have been down that road before and it's not the way to go. This has been discussed in much detail and the consensus is that it is best to simply stay well clear of messing with fleet-battles; this fleet engagement is no exception and we will remain consistent in this stance. We will not be passing judgment on what should have happened during this battle nor alter the outcome in any way.



This is a ****ing outrage CCP you have a record of destroying ghost ships no matter how and where they they spawned, and now you wont do ****, there is no way that you can justify this other than you spawn every ghost ship that you have destroyed

Muad' Dib
Gallente
PWNED FACTOR HOLDINGS
Posted - 2010.07.04 07:24:00 - [763]
 

Originally by: Cone Filler
Originally by: GM Grimmi
Here is an update regarding events which occurred during a large fleet engagement in 6NJ8-V which took place on June 16th.

Some ships were destroyed during the engagement, yet they also managed to jump to safety. This resulted in the ships reappearing in-game some time after they were destroyed. Our server-side logs represent both of the aforementioned circumstances and the final outcome was that the ships remained in game with the modules which were destroyed along with them despite kill reports being sent out showing their destruction. Modules moved to wrecks upon the ships' destruction were not duplicated, and the owners of the ships received insurance payouts for the losses. No game masters or CCP staff for that matter were involved with the revival of the ships in any way.

The underlying issue has been examined and improvements implemented that should prevent similar situations in the future.

Regarding fleet-battle reimbursement and GM intervention in them in general, we have been down that road before and it's not the way to go. This has been discussed in much detail and the consensus is that it is best to simply stay well clear of messing with fleet-battles; this fleet engagement is no exception and we will remain consistent in this stance. We will not be passing judgment on what should have happened during this battle nor alter the outcome in any way.



This is a ****ing outrage CCP you have a record of destroying ghost ships no matter how and where they they spawned, and now you wont do ****, there is no way that you can justify this other than you spawn every ghost ship that you have destroyed


If no involvement is the policy, than why did WN's titan get taken away ?

Fred0
Caldari
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.07.04 07:39:00 - [764]
 

Originally by: Cone Filler

This is a ****ing outrage CCP you have a record of destroying ghost ships no matter how and where they they spawned, and now you wont do ****, there is no way that you can justify this other than you spawn every ghost ship that you have destroyed


He is quite clearly saying that fleet fights fall under special circumstances and they are sticking to their non-interference policy. It seems our rage was not big enough for them to take this seriously.

Dograzor
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2010.07.04 07:55:00 - [765]
 

*pulls out popcorn*

CCP, this thread can make or break your reputation towards the players.

Handle with care...

Rinala
Gallente
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.07.04 08:27:00 - [766]
 

Edited by: Rinala on 04/07/2010 20:35:29
Edited by: Rinala on 04/07/2010 08:31:49
This sums it up pretty good I thought.
Originally by: Ravenlokk
Originally by: Shade Millith


It's probably closer to "Ships jumped out, loaded safe system, then logged out, and got magically teleported back to a hostile system. If we were going to interfere with the outcome of the battle, we'd have to interfere with two problems, the ships getting teleported back to combat, and the ships respawning.

Basicly remove them, then give them back"

We can't expect them to deal with one of the problems, and not the other now can we? Either they don't do anything, and the respawned titans are still in game, or they deal with both issues, and the titans that jumped to safety are returned.

Take your pick vOv


Its easier to justify this if its in your favor, to the average player that has nothing to do with either side however, this looks extremely shady. If the shoe was on the other foot, I'm certain you would be singing a different toon. My opinion would still remain the same.



I will not be buying DUST 514.

Muad' Dib
Gallente
PWNED FACTOR HOLDINGS
Posted - 2010.07.04 09:17:00 - [767]
 

Originally by: Fred0
Originally by: Cone Filler

This is a ****ing outrage CCP you have a record of destroying ghost ships no matter how and where they they spawned, and now you wont do ****, there is no way that you can justify this other than you spawn every ghost ship that you have destroyed


He is quite clearly saying that fleet fights fall under special circumstances and they are sticking to their non-interference policy. It seems our rage was not big enough for them to take this seriously.


Than why did they take WN's titan ?

Chib
Minmatar
Drunken Wookies
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.07.04 11:27:00 - [768]
 

sup folks, long time no see o/

did a quick scan of the thread and decided to share my opinion for what its worth.

first of all, if one thing has ever been constant in eve its when you get 1000+ people together in the same system shoosting each other its gonna break it. it always has and no matter how much hardware ccp add to their servers it seems it always will....

so please if your part of an event that involves this many people be prepared for alot of sitting about staring at black screens with the eventuality that you will probably die without ever loading.....


and im not really sure what happened with the reimbursements but from what i think i can tell is that when the fight ended people who had died still had their ships so ccp removed all the ships killmails were generated for !

i cant see a problem with this, you cant complain with them doing this the ship had technically been removed from the game and was essentially duplicated........when people used the clone bug back in 03 on harvies they got removed.....noone whined then...just because u didnt deliberatly clone you ship this time doesnt mean your have a right to moan about its removal

anyhow.....i might be wrong but this is how i see it

cya back in game soon folks

Drak Min
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.04 11:32:00 - [769]
 

So, all the people complaining this or that. You want the spawn ships destroyed as it was due to a flaw in the game? Ok fair enough, then lets enforce the EULA on the individuals who set the trap to illicit the desired result of lagging out the node. Yes, NC jumped a bunch of ships in, was it done with the intention of nod lag? Probably not, its more their MO to bring excessive firepower. Did WN/friends then load/login/wtfever to topple the infrastructure with intention of the end result of node lag? Probably as it's a known game design flaw. And to my understanding intentionally abusing a known flaw within a game design is typically labeled as exploiting. So, lets destroy the ships and then account ban all of the individuals who laid the trap that resulted in the exploit taking place. Problem solved, everyone is happy as CCP did what is right. Or better yet, CCP releases the logs showing the ships that jumped out were in fact clear of the system and then reappeared in 6NJ at which time they were eventually killed and move on. CCP is giving both sides a way out w/o putting any names to shame in the process. Take it as a bone they're throwing you. Otherwise, scream for the ships to be destroyed and make sure you scream for the exploiters to be banned as well.

pedros
Minmatar
Gaia Freelancers
Posted - 2010.07.04 12:56:00 - [770]
 

Edited by: pedros on 04/07/2010 13:35:48
Originally by: Drak Min
So, all the people complaining this or that. You want the spawn ships destroyed as it was due to a flaw in the game? Ok fair enough, then lets enforce the EULA on the individuals who set the trap to illicit the desired result of lagging out the node. Yes, NC jumped a bunch of ships in, was it done with the intention of nod lag? Probably not, its more their MO to bring excessive firepower. Did WN/friends then load/login/wtfever to topple the infrastructure with intention of the end result of node lag? Probably as it's a known game design flaw. And to my understanding intentionally abusing a known flaw within a game design is typically labeled as exploiting. So, lets destroy the ships and then account ban all of the individuals who laid the trap that resulted in the exploit taking place. Problem solved, everyone is happy as CCP did what is right. Or better yet, CCP releases the logs showing the ships that jumped out were in fact clear of the system and then reappeared in 6NJ at which time they were eventually killed and move on. CCP is giving both sides a way out w/o putting any names to shame in the process. Take it as a bone they're throwing you. Otherwise, scream for the ships to be destroyed and make sure you scream for the exploiters to be banned as well.


err wait , we lagged NC out ? are u crazy ? south forces in 6nj max 250 or so , nc jumped about 500 SO DONT TALK WE LAGGED UR OUT; U JUST TRY LIKE EVY TIME LAGGUS OUT BUT DID NTO HAPPEND so GO HELL

Zitat von RAWR Vuk Lau
All capital/supercapital ships destroyed in that fight magically reappeared today scattered all across the north. There are only few caps/supercaps not piloted by their owners. Couple of them already returned to owners via petitions.


Wrik Hoover
Minmatar
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.07.04 13:46:00 - [771]
 

Quote:
Vuk:
WN or Co2 didnt found any titan, so those titans couldnt be taken away. I was trolling there.


Quote:
Quote:
wait did we actually recover any of the titans?;)

Vuk:Yes 3 of them.

pedros
Minmatar
Gaia Freelancers
Posted - 2010.07.04 14:26:00 - [772]
 

Originally by: Wrik Hoover
Quote:
Vuk:
WN or Co2 didnt found any titan, so those titans couldnt be taken away. I was trolling there.


Quote:
Quote:
wait did we actually recover any of the titans?;)

Vuk:Yes 3 of them.



false talking, trolling besides vuk, titan "avatar" was taken by Wn and removed by ccp

Marlona Sky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.04 17:22:00 - [773]
 

Originally by: Drak Min
So, all the people complaining this or that. You want the spawn ships destroyed as it was due to a flaw in the game? Ok fair enough, then lets enforce the EULA on the individuals who set the trap to illicit the desired result of lagging out the node. Yes, NC jumped a bunch of ships in, was it done with the intention of nod lag? Probably not, its more their MO to bring excessive firepower. Did WN/friends then load/login/wtfever to topple the infrastructure with intention of the end result of node lag? Probably as it's a known game design flaw. And to my understanding intentionally abusing a known flaw within a game design is typically labeled as exploiting. So, lets destroy the ships and then account ban all of the individuals who laid the trap that resulted in the exploit taking place. Problem solved, everyone is happy as CCP did what is right. Or better yet, CCP releases the logs showing the ships that jumped out were in fact clear of the system and then reappeared in 6NJ at which time they were eventually killed and move on. CCP is giving both sides a way out w/o putting any names to shame in the process. Take it as a bone they're throwing you. Otherwise, scream for the ships to be destroyed and make sure you scream for the exploiters to be banned as well.


So you basically said when NC goes into a system it is to bring superior firepower but when SC goes into a system it is to cause lag? Rolling Eyes

Would it not be a more fair assumption that everyone tries to bring everything they can and if lag happens they hope the enemy gets it and not themselves?

Drak Min
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.04 20:04:00 - [774]
 

Edited by: Drak Min on 04/07/2010 20:06:30
Originally by: Marlona Sky

So you basically said when NC goes into a system it is to bring superior firepower but when SC goes into a system it is to cause lag? Rolling Eyes

Would it not be a more fair assumption that everyone tries to bring everything they can and if lag happens they hope the enemy gets it and not themselves?


No, what I'm saying is, when someone brags of "setting a trap" and the trap is based on the premise Group A will most likely do Task Blob so when this is initiated Group B does Task Login with the intention of causing Effect Lag, it's intentionally abusing a game design failure for your own benefit which in most mmos i've played typically is referred to as exploiting and results in some sort of punishment. I would go back through and sift through all the ramblings and remarks of this thread to show who was doing the bragging, but seriously, I don't care enough one way or another.

The point of my previous point stands, If you wish CCP to remove the ships, then you should be asking for the logs to be presented actually showing the ships were killed before they jumped to their target systems AND asking for perm bans on the individuals who decided to use a known system failure to lag the system out, CCP would have the means of figuring that out pretty simply as how many of WN/Co2/etc (the individuals bragging about their trap) were in system, how many logged into system, how many jumped into system etc. Extra work all around which CCP should be doing anyways, their stance on noninvolvement in fleet fights is absolutely spedtastic thinking as it promotes more and more abuse of failing game mechanics and less and less strategy.

And before anyone says it: Everyone should be held to the same standard. CCP should have done this in previous fights that had similiar endings(large force spam logins/etc to force a node failure).

Marlona Sky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.04 20:26:00 - [775]
 

Originally by: Drak Min
No, what I'm saying is, when someone brags of "setting a trap" and the trap is based on the premise Group A will most likely do Task Blob so when this is initiated Group B does Task Login with the intention of causing Effect Lag, it's intentionally abusing a game design failure for your own benefit which in most mmos i've played typically is referred to as exploiting and results in some sort of punishment. I would go back through and sift through all the ramblings and remarks of this thread to show who was doing the bragging, but seriously, I don't care enough one way or another.

The point of my previous point stands, If you wish CCP to remove the ships, then you should be asking for the logs to be presented actually showing the ships were killed before they jumped to their target systems AND asking for perm bans on the individuals who decided to use a known system failure to lag the system out, CCP would have the means of figuring that out pretty simply as how many of WN/Co2/etc (the individuals bragging about their trap) were in system, how many logged into system, how many jumped into system etc. Extra work all around which CCP should be doing anyways, their stance on noninvolvement in fleet fights is absolutely spedtastic thinking as it promotes more and more abuse of failing game mechanics and less and less strategy.

And before anyone says it: Everyone should be held to the same standard. CCP should have done this in previous fights that had similiar endings(large force spam logins/etc to force a node failure).



So you are saying that WN/Co2/etc were logged off not to hide their numbers but so when they logged in it would cause lag?...

So if you log in, and it causes lag you should be banned ehh?...

Either you are an idiot or trolling. Probably both. I'm sure no matter what the outcome of your theory you will pronounce to the world that you were trolling and self proclaim yourself a winner in some personal competition with yourself. Which is just sad. Neutral

Please take your wild theories elsewhere. This is COAD, where nothing but truth and solid facts are told in all threads. Very Happy

Caldrion Dosto
Gallente
Excrutiating Dirge
Merciless.
Posted - 2010.07.05 05:51:00 - [776]
 

This is very easy tbh i canīt imagine how CCP GMīs could make a wrong turn.

If you want the result of the fight to stand and you didnīt "giveback" or respawn any capitalships then remove the duplicated ships from the game.

If logs shows them as dead KILL THEM.


And seriously this would be best in the long run for everyone, since this is bound to happen again sooner or later and i would think it would make the game suck if you respawn all capitalship loses in fights, then whats the point?


FlameGlow
Caldari
Avalon Guards
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.07.05 06:59:00 - [777]
 

Originally by: Caldrion Dosto
This is very easy tbh i canīt imagine how CCP GMīs could make a wrong turn.

If you want the result of the fight to stand and you didnīt "giveback" or respawn any capitalships then remove the duplicated ships from the game.

If logs shows them as dead KILL THEM.


And seriously this would be best in the long run for everyone, since this is bound to happen again sooner or later and i would think it would make the game suck if you respawn all capitalship loses in fights, then whats the point?



Originally by: GM Grimmi
Some ships were destroyed during the engagement, yet they also managed to jump to safety. ... Our server-side logs represent both of the aforementioned circumstances


apparently the logs show both that they jumped out and that they died, yup, the server works fine Rolling Eyes

Ed Rush
Gallente
Erasers inc.
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2010.07.05 07:14:00 - [778]
 

I'd say, go book a ticket to the next eve fanfest and deliver your feedback in physical form. in a way which has an impact in it.

Very Happy

Lord TGR
Minmatar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.05 07:20:00 - [779]
 

Or have all the major factions wardec eachother and go back and forth between the major trade hubs and agent systems and do 100v100 or 200v200 fights, just to bring the nice features of lag/gridload/session change to the general public so they know what to demand fixed.

Nah, what am I thinking? Let's go back to the regular scheduled *****ing about whose ships are still alive, or got killed, or who should be banned for causing lag, because that's so much more productive.

Marlona Sky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.07.05 07:33:00 - [780]
 

Originally by: Lord TGR
Or have all the major factions wardec eachother and go back and forth between the major trade hubs and agent systems and do 100v100 or 200v200 fights, just to bring the nice features of lag/gridload/session change to the general public so they know what to demand fixed.


xing up to bring lag to all major mission hubs!


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