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Marlona Sky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.20 17:18:00 - [601]
 

So which form do I fill out to get a duplicate ghost ship of all the ships I have lost to black screen?

Ishbu
Gallente
KIA Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.20 17:29:00 - [602]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
So which form do I fill out to get a duplicate ghost ship of all the ships I have lost to black screen?


Same Form I get to fill out to magically make your ship come back to local after you jump out and blackscreen in a new system so I can get killmails?

Marlona Sky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.20 17:41:00 - [603]
 

Originally by: Ishbu
Same Form I get to fill out to magically make your ship come back to local after you jump out and blackscreen in a new system so I can get killmails?


Hehehe...

I'm more just bumping this in hopes we can get an update from CCP on their investigation to the ghost ships. Razz

Josiphine Noir
Amarr
Pelican.
Veneratio Venator Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.20 17:48:00 - [604]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Ishbu
Same Form I get to fill out to magically make your ship come back to local after you jump out and blackscreen in a new system so I can get killmails?


Hehehe...

I'm more just bumping this in hopes we can get an update from CCP on their investigation to the ghost ships. Razz


I have a feeling that if NC is allowed to keep the ships you will end up crying foul and continue on the "CCP Sucks" train but if they aren't you will suddenly love CCP and praise them for making such a wonderful and playable game

Ishbu
Gallente
KIA Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.20 17:55:00 - [605]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Ishbu
Same Form I get to fill out to magically make your ship come back to local after you jump out and blackscreen in a new system so I can get killmails?


Hehehe...

I'm more just bumping this in hopes we can get an update from CCP on their investigation to the ghost ships. Razz


No, I understand. I just want to make sure people understand there are multiple bugs that happend NOT just ghost ships. Hopefully CCP will atleast acknowledge the issues and FIX the damn things.

Marlona Sky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.20 18:03:00 - [606]
 

Edited by: Marlona Sky on 20/06/2010 18:08:20
Originally by: Josiphine Noir
I have a feeling that if NC is allowed to keep the ships you will end up crying foul and continue on the "CCP Sucks" train but if they aren't you will suddenly love CCP and praise them for making such a wonderful and playable game


If CCP allows the ghost ships to remain (keep in mind it was not just NC that boarded the ghost ships that appeared after DT, long after the battle was over, so stop thinking I'm just for their removal because NC is gloating about it) it would be a very hard blow to EVE both in game and out of game. It will be like the T20 scandal all over again. And I am sure everyone, including CCP can remember the extremely bad press they got for that across many gaming websites and magazines.

Duped items are horrible for any game, especially for one like EVE which when something is destroyed, you can not simply walk back and get everything back like in WoW. If these duplicate ships and fittings are allowed to stay in the game, then EVE is no better than WoW and we lose the edge we have over that game. The two main things I like about this game the most is one server and when things are blown up, it has meaning.

EDIT to respond to Ishbu above me: I know, I wish all this buggy crap and lag would go away too. Lag and bugs should not be the deciding factor for any fights or territory or anything in that matter. Especially for our EVE. Thats right CCP, I said our, as in the players. We like our sandbox, our worlds, our fights. We have spent, for a lot of us, years shaping it. We don't want bugs and lag to interfere anymore. Anyways, back to useless smacking and such...

Your gonna die NC! Pew pew and stuff!!!!1111twelve!!12222

Fred0
Caldari
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.20 18:20:00 - [607]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
If CCP allows the ghost ships to remain (keep in mind it was not just NC that boarded the ghost ships that appeared after DT, long after the battle was over, so stop thinking I'm just for their removal because NC is gloating about it) it would be a very hard blow to EVE both in game and out of game. It will be like the T20 scandal all over again. And I am sure everyone, including CCP can remember the extremely bad press they got for that across many gaming websites and magazines.


Then you should already be doing that. They allowed PL to board 20 of their caps that died in Y-2ANO after the following DT. While some other dude in this thread (dunno how believable he was) started saying he has had ccp run around and blow up his ships after jumping, docking and what not (not the same but quite similar). That's the inconsistency there already. The ****up has already happened. What we are looking at now is damage control from ccp and if they do it in a believable enough way so that the playerbase accept what they are saying.

Ishbu
Gallente
KIA Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.20 18:21:00 - [608]
 

So what happens if CCP determines from Server logs that infact the ships did jump and the bug was them respawning, "ghosting", back in 6nj? That is a valid outcome as is the "ships died, ghost ships are deleted."

Marlona Sky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.20 18:29:00 - [609]
 

Originally by: Ishbu
So what happens if CCP determines from Server logs that infact the ships did jump and the bug was them respawning, "ghosting", back in 6nj? That is a valid outcome as is the "ships died, ghost ships are deleted."


If that was the case then GM Grimmi's post was incorrect. He clearly states the ships had died. Which I am sure he checked the infamous logs before posting that. Why do you guys keep conveniently forgetting about his post?

Ishbu
Gallente
KIA Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.20 18:35:00 - [610]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Ishbu
So what happens if CCP determines from Server logs that infact the ships did jump and the bug was them respawning, "ghosting", back in 6nj? That is a valid outcome as is the "ships died, ghost ships are deleted."


If that was the case then GM Grimmi's post was incorrect. He clearly states the ships had died. Which I am sure he checked the infamous logs before posting that. Why do you guys keep conveniently forgetting about his post?


I am not forgetting that was said. But you have to remember even if there was a bug there would still be logs of ships dying. It wasnt said if the deaths were valid or not. My argument is the bug is the ships RESPAWNING in 6NJ to be killed after jumping. If the logs show that they are legit kills not caused by them being respawned back in 6NJ then so be it, remove the "ghost ships." I just dont think it is going to be that simple either way for CCP to make the call.

Jareck Hunter
Caldari
Rubicon Legion
Posted - 2010.06.20 18:37:00 - [611]
 

How did the GM explain that ships like the ones destroyed, don't say the same ships nobody knows, appeard in the system they had been "jumped" to?

If they never jumped, how does the eve-server know where to place them?

Ishbu
Gallente
KIA Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.20 19:09:00 - [612]
 

ok match over, more debate on how CCP failed in the 6nj fight

Fred0
Caldari
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.20 19:29:00 - [613]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
If that was the case then GM Grimmi's post was incorrect. He clearly states the ships had died. Which I am sure he checked the infamous logs before posting that. Why do you guys keep conveniently forgetting about his post?

well I dunno but there seems to have been quite a few NC that on friday morning (me included) sent e-mails to ccp to get their **** in order and start communicating or this would blow up like a new t20 incident. I got a reply from internal affairs saying they were on top of it.

An hour after that we had that statement by Grimmi, which i am sorry to say just doesn't cut it and only reminds most of us about the ineptness you fight when you petition stuff. It's not exhaustive in any way, it implies stuff they don't substantiate and that goes contrary to how they've handled this before. In short they started off by hiding more than they say and contradict earlier confidential gm communications to pl. If they plan to handle this situation like that response I think they might be better off saying nothing.

Snot Shot
Minmatar
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2010.06.20 19:31:00 - [614]
 

Originally by: Fred0
Then you should already be doing that. They allowed PL to board 20 of their caps that died in Y-2ANO after the following DT.

How would PL have done this if IT had control of the system after DT? Their KB from that date and after looks like IT camped the cyno spot for days after waiting for people to log in?...I am calling bull**** on the PL boarding ghost ships after DT and if they black screened they never would have been able to jump out either so dont give me that ****...Wink

Marlona Sky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.20 20:15:00 - [615]
 

Originally by: Snot Shot
Originally by: Fred0
Then you should already be doing that. They allowed PL to board 20 of their caps that died in Y-2ANO after the following DT.

How would PL have done this if IT had control of the system after DT? Their KB from that date and after looks like IT camped the cyno spot for days after waiting for people to log in?...I am calling bull**** on the PL boarding ghost ships after DT and if they black screened they never would have been able to jump out either so dont give me that ****...Wink



That's because Fred0 is a liar.

Fred0
Caldari
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.20 20:23:00 - [616]
 

Hardly, I just don't argue with alts. You just have to visit SHC to see it confirmed by several people. Or you could talk to Shamis here on this forum who confirmed this bug. All of them have much much higer credibility than you two.

Or you could hold for the CSM meeting logs for next time where it's sure to show up. :D

Flikoo
Gallente
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.06.20 20:37:00 - [617]
 

Edited by: Flikoo on 20/06/2010 20:37:55
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Edited by: Marlona Sky on 20/06/2010 18:08:20
Originally by: Josiphine Noir
I have a feeling that if NC is allowed to keep the ships you will end up crying foul and continue on the "CCP Sucks" train but if they aren't you will suddenly love CCP and praise them for making such a wonderful and playable game


If CCP allows the ghost ships to remain (keep in mind it was not just NC that boarded the ghost ships that appeared after DT, long after the battle was over, so stop thinking I'm just for their removal because NC is gloating about it) it would be a very hard blow to EVE both in game and out of game. It will be like the T20 scandal all over again. And I am sure everyone, including CCP can remember the extremely bad press they got for that across many gaming websites and magazines.

Duped items are horrible for any game, especially for one like EVE which when something is destroyed, you can not simply walk back and get everything back like in WoW. If these duplicate ships and fittings are allowed to stay in the game, then EVE is no better than WoW and we lose the edge we have over that game. The two main things I like about this game the most is one server and when things are blown up, it has meaning.

EDIT to respond to Ishbu above me: I know, I wish all this buggy crap and lag would go away too. Lag and bugs should not be the deciding factor for any fights or territory or anything in that matter. Especially for our EVE. Thats right CCP, I said our, as in the players. We like our sandbox, our worlds, our fights. We have spent, for a lot of us, years shaping it. We don't want bugs and lag to interfere anymore. Anyways, back to useless smacking and such...

Your gonna die NC! Pew pew and stuff!!!!1111twelve!!12222

I hear 2 very contradicting statements, the first is that the titans shouldn't stay, and should be deleted which is interesting because you use the threat of bad media to encourage CCP to delete these titans. It seems like you wish the NC titans to be destroyed because they are NC, even worse, you seem to assume CCP is going to listen to you over evidence left in the server logs of if the ships jumped before they were destroyed or not. It's also a very easy arguement to say those titans surviving are just as possible as them dieing if lag was not a major variable in the battle.

The second, is that lag shouldn't be the deciding factor of a battle, but in the case of EVE nullsec it is, and in this certain battle some Titans should've gotten out but didn't due to lag. Currently lag is the deciding factor of battles, and currently all alliances try to use this to their advantage, so instead of using shameless talk and your female avatar to win the hearts of all us fearless forum warriors, you could just leave it up to the GMs and server logs.

Lord TGR
Minmatar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.20 20:47:00 - [618]
 

Let's live in a pretend world, where the titans and supercarriers are removed by CCP.

Good. Now, can we please get back to focusing on the dominion effect, instead of trying to ear**** eachother over some ships which doesn't matter as much as the health of the ****ing gameplay?

Please?

Pretty please?

With a big honking ****ing cherry on top?

Marlona Sky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.20 23:43:00 - [619]
 

Edited by: Marlona Sky on 20/06/2010 23:44:28
Originally by: Flikoo
It seems like you wish the NC titans to be destroyed because they are NC


Let me clarify for you on my feelings about this. All duplicate items including ships should be removed from the game no matter who is in possession of them. Even Vuk said that a non-NC person boarded one of the Titans that was revived after DT. I do not care who has them. They died and whatever blew up with it should stay dead.

Originally by: Flikoo
It's also a very easy arguement to say those titans surviving are just as possible as them dieing if lag was not a major variable in the battle.


Multiple people said the battlefield was bubbled to hell and back. So maybe, they did the jump thing, and then the server said, "Oh no you didn't!" and made them say even though on the players view he gets the cap loss thing. But hey, we can theorize back and forth all we want till we are blue in the face on what could have happened and things. All I care about is ships and fittings that die stay dead.

Originally by: Flikoo
The second, is that lag shouldn't be the deciding factor of a battle, but in the case of EVE nullsec it is, and in this certain battle some Titans should've gotten out but didn't due to lag.


Now how do you know they should have gotten out? There are is an infinite amount of things that could have happened if lag was not happening. And in a fight involving over a thousand players, no one will ever know. The only thing we can do now is wait for CCP to tell us why the ships that were killed, were revived after DT. I can counter argue your capacitor jump usage with the server showed they were tackled but due to lag, the client on the player side did not register this and thus issued a jump command and used capacitor blah, blah, blah... Ever warp off and then get rubber banded back because you in fact did not warp off on the CCP server side? Yeah, this could be something similar to that. But in the end, we will just have to wait for the CCP findings.

Originally by: Flikoo
Currently lag is the deciding factor of battles, and currently all alliances try to use this to their advantage, so instead of using shameless talk and your female avatar to win the hearts of all us fearless forum warriors, you could just leave it up to the GMs and server logs.


We all know lag is a deciding factor right now. I stated that it should not be. Which I am sure 100% of everyone who logs into this game wishes that was the case too.

So in closing, no I did not contradict myself at all. Sorry if me going off what the GM said in this thread upsets you. Maybe you should read it and go off of it as well?

EDIT for Lord TGR: I agree, this new post Dominion effect is definitely not good. CCP, what say you?

Ocih
Amarr
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2010.06.21 00:03:00 - [620]
 

I dont know why this case was different. If they found a way to log the information they couldnt before. It wouldnt hurt to let everyone know if that is the case. I dont see them applying ISK fixes to all the **** ups in this game. They run 7 years but if people had an idea of what they could expect from battles soured by node instability.

Log in with 12000 in game, be in a que. Log in with 48000 in game and go right to game. Log in with que, close the client, log in again lose que, get right in. I'm not dedicated to a node and congestion doesnt play a role in node assignment. Simple point? Something isnt right.

Levitikon
Gallente
Constructive Influence
Northern Associates.
Posted - 2010.06.21 00:46:00 - [621]
 

Originally by: Lord TGR
Originally by: Hagen Stein

- Possible item duplication exploits
I'm pretty sure a ton of ruthless people already examine how to artifically recreate such scenarios and take advantage of this problem in an attempt to spawn expensive items/ships.


I'm pretty sure this isn't going to be a possibility, as every item has its own unique ID.


Well, it was-slash-is the same in Diablo 2.The effect: flood of dupes, that disappear when they get on the same shard/game. I can be, there si fine chance you could keep your duped titan alive be strolling away from nodes where your original, non-duped titan is.

On unrelated note - your writing is way too coherent and intelligent than GS/F accepted average. I bet you're hatestar on goon forum:) You have my pity for that.

Malcore Trisus
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.06.21 00:56:00 - [622]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Snot Shot
Originally by: Fred0
Then you should already be doing that. They allowed PL to board 20 of their caps that died in Y-2ANO after the following DT.

How would PL have done this if IT had control of the system after DT? Their KB from that date and after looks like IT camped the cyno spot for days after waiting for people to log in?...I am calling bull**** on the PL boarding ghost ships after DT and if they black screened they never would have been able to jump out either so dont give me that ****...Wink



That's because Fred0 is a liar.


No, it's because they jumped to MN5. It's not complicated people.

Josiphine Noir
Amarr
Pelican.
Veneratio Venator Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.21 01:22:00 - [623]
 

Can I ask a simple question?

What happens if CCPs investigations show that the ships that were destoryed were the duplicates? Would everyone crying to have them removed accept that answer from the dev team? or will they just cry T20ish foul?

Snot Shot
Minmatar
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2010.06.21 02:12:00 - [624]
 

Originally by: Malcore Trisus
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Snot Shot
Originally by: Fred0
Then you should already be doing that. They allowed PL to board 20 of their caps that died in Y-2ANO after the following DT.

How would PL have done this if IT had control of the system after DT? Their KB from that date and after looks like IT camped the cyno spot for days after waiting for people to log in?...I am calling bull**** on the PL boarding ghost ships after DT and if they black screened they never would have been able to jump out either so dont give me that ****...Wink



That's because Fred0 is a liar.


No, it's because they jumped to MN5. It's not complicated people.

Mal you need to keep up here if you want to jump in with your dim witted comments...Rolling Eyes...PL has always said they black screened and never loaded grid.....don't know to many people that can jump to cyno if they can't load to do it..Idea

Kra Torii
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2010.06.21 03:30:00 - [625]
 

I'm guessing Snot Shot is either some kind of terrible troll, or an alt or maybe even both.

I also think he has the hots for the NC and PL as he's always trying to find some way of trolling them.

Don't worry Mr. Shot. I still love you.

Lord TGR
Minmatar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.21 03:44:00 - [626]
 

Edited by: Lord TGR on 21/06/2010 04:21:09
Edited by: Lord TGR on 21/06/2010 03:55:42
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Now how do you know they should have gotten out? There are is an infinite amount of things that could have happened if lag was not happening. And in a fight involving over a thousand players, no one will ever know. The only thing we can do now is wait for CCP to tell us why the ships that were killed, were revived after DT. I can counter argue your capacitor jump usage with the server showed they were tackled but due to lag, the client on the player side did not register this and thus issued a jump command and used capacitor blah, blah, blah...

If CCP have made it so the client decides when to not just try to initiate cynoing out, but to actually perform the whole "start the new process on the new server"-procedure, then we have a nice way of cheating within EVE. I'm hoping that this isn't the case, and that the sensible thing is the case, i.e. yes, the client tells the server to initiate cynoing out (just like you can cycle your guns by manually deactivating them on the guy you're shooting at), the server checks if the client's ship is actually tackled or not, and only then initiates the cyno procedure and transfers control of the client's ship to the new node, but either can't clean up the old ship properly due to CPU usage, or the act of cleaning up a ship's session is seriously down-prioritized (what with the problem of ghost ships on your overview even if you've shot them 10-15 minutes (or a few hours vOv) ago.

Actually, the latter would explain why the ships we kill in high load situations stick around so damn long. They're damn annoying.

Originally by: Marlona Sky
Ever warp off and then get rubber banded back because you in fact did not warp off on the CCP server side? Yeah, this could be something similar to that. But in the end, we will just have to wait for the CCP findings.

The warp and rubberband back is probably because your client is setup to pretend to start warping to make you less Crying or Very sad about lag, and once every second (or whatever) the server is telling the client "oh no you didn't, this is where you're supposed to be at", and the client starts all over again trying to warp, is told "oh no you didn't" etc etc etc.

I'm serious, if they've shortcircuited the client to the extent it can initiate cynoing and get you transferred to a different node without being corrected fairly quickly (...we are talking about a loaded node, so "quickly" may be relative), then we have a much, much bigger problem on our hands, and this should definitely be prioritized right up there with figuring out where the gridload/session change issue came from.

Note I said where, not when.

Edit: And when they appeared on the cyno out-system after DT, then it's pretty obvious that one of three things have happened. 1) the GMs have manually put them there, 2) they did indeed cyno out to that system, and thus either weren't tackled and should've been safe, or 3) the client tricked the destination node to accept them even if the source node had them tackled, in which case we have a nice way of cheating your way out of a heavily loaded system, which would be a very, very serious issue and one of the top priorities of CCP to find and close.

Edit2: If it's 1), then the ships shouldn't have been respawned, and should probably be removed. If it's 2), then the ships were safe and should never have been destroyed in the first place. If it's 3), then the ships should be destroyed, and CCP should fix the damn problem.

Of the three, I'd prefer 2), simply because it involves the least amoung of incompetence and malice.

Marlona Sky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.21 03:56:00 - [627]
 

Originally by: Lord TGR
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Now how do you know they should have gotten out? There are is an infinite amount of things that could have happened if lag was not happening. And in a fight involving over a thousand players, no one will ever know. The only thing we can do now is wait for CCP to tell us why the ships that were killed, were revived after DT. I can counter argue your capacitor jump usage with the server showed they were tackled but due to lag, the client on the player side did not register this and thus issued a jump command and used capacitor blah, blah, blah...

If CCP have made it so the client decides when to not just try to initiate cynoing out, but to actually perform the whole "start the new process on the new server"-procedure, then we have a nice way of cheating within EVE. I'm hoping that this isn't the case, and that the sensible thing is the case, i.e. yes, the client tells the server to initiate cynoing out (just like you can cycle your guns by manually deactivating them on the guy you're shooting at), the server checks if the client's ship is actually tackled or not, and only then initiates the cyno procedure and transfers control of the client's ship to the new node, but either can't clean up the old ship properly due to CPU usage, or the act of cleaning up a ship's session is seriously down-prioritized (what with the problem of ghost ships on your overview even if you've shot them 10-15 minutes (or a few hours vOv) ago.

Actually, the latter would explain why the ships we kill in high load situations stick around so damn long. They're damn annoying.

Originally by: Marlona Sky
Ever warp off and then get rubber banded back because you in fact did not warp off on the CCP server side? Yeah, this could be something similar to that. But in the end, we will just have to wait for the CCP findings.

The warp and rubberband back is probably because your client is setup to pretend to start warping to make you less Crying or Very sad about lag, and once every second (or whatever) the server is telling the client "oh no you didn't, this is where you're supposed to be at", and the client starts all over again trying to warp, is told "oh no you didn't" etc etc etc.

I'm serious, if they've shortcircuited the client to the extent it can initiate cynoing and get you transferred to a different node without being corrected fairly quickly (...we are talking about a loaded node, so "quickly" may be relative), then we have a much, much bigger problem on our hands, and this should definitely be prioritized right up there with figuring out where the gridload/session change issue came from.

Note I said where, not when.


Not entirely sure but I gather you are basically saying, "The lag sucks ass right now and ruins fleet fights and other game mechanics." To this, I agree over 9000%.

D4rkF4lcon
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.06.21 04:00:00 - [628]
 

Snot shot best troll, even if not the most informed one.

Lord TGR
Minmatar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.21 04:02:00 - [629]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
Not entirely sure but I gather you are basically saying, "The lag sucks ass right now and ruins fleet fights and other game mechanics." To this, I agree over 9000%.

I did a sort of TLDR of my entire not-quite-woken-up ramblings. See if that doesn't summarize things sufficiently.

Marlona Sky
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.21 04:24:00 - [630]
 

Originally by: Lord TGR
1) the GMs have manually put them there


Can't be that because:

Originally by: GM Grimmi
the ships were NOT returned by GameMasters.


So that leaves us with:

Originally by: Lord TGR
2) they did indeed cyno out to that system, and thus either weren't tackled and should've been safe, or 3) the client tricked the destination node to accept them even if the source node had them tackled, in which case we have a nice way of cheating your way out of a heavily loaded system, which would be a very, very serious issue and one of the top priorities of CCP to find and close.


So yeah, I agree. Now we just have to wait for the official CCP findings on their investigation. Anyone down for an office pool on when this will be without going over on the time and date?


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