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blankseplocked Re: "Nation's Unity" thread.
 
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CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2010.06.15 22:07:00 - [1]
 

Since I can't (for a number of good reasons) respond directly to a thread outside our forums, I just wanted to point out one quick thing to consider in this discussion. Of course I'm probably about to fail at the "quick" part but hey...

Pre-Fall and Post-Fall Nation. Very interesting topic to think about and a great thread.

One thing I hadn't seen mentioned anywhere however, perhaps because it's a bit of a subtle point, was what the events of just the last decade, namely; the rise of you capsuleers, could mean to the Nation. It's worth considering, especially in light of other realities such as agents loyal to Sansha's Nation recruiting capsuleers for missions over most of the last decade, and more recently, changing ordinary planetbound citizens into Wyvern pilots faster than you can say "True Creations ate my family."

The rise of the capsuleer, the marriage of the clone and the capsule, it was a fairly significant turn of events and something that may be playing an as-yet-unappreciated role in the Post-Fall Nation (at least as far as that particular discussion goes anyhow). Some might even argue that there should be three categories: Pre-Fall, Post-Fall, and Empyrean Age - the capsuleer era.

Ultimately that will be disputable, but that is partly because it rests on known facts about how much capsuleers have influenced the Nation and, in this moment where capsuleers are best poised to directly influence things, it is perhaps not in their interests to have these become known facts. Not yet, at least.

The subtlety of the point in storyline terms comes in appreciating that the capsule itself is actually older than Sansha. The basic technology existed long before his Nation did. At the inception of Sansha's Nation over a century ago, however, capsuleers like you did not exist. This is a recent, and drastic, turn of events. What this means for Sansha's Nation is a topic equally worthy of discussion, and one that I hope is pursued further.


Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.16 00:36:00 - [2]
 

The recent chronicles and the book "The Burning Life" tend to picture the capsuleers as all evil, which is not neccessarily true. They are however capable of doing great evil, but at the same time of great good and both might be actually a matter of the point of view.

From what I understand about Sansha's Nation it was planned as a kind of paradise, an enlightened civilisation were everyone works for a common goal and the greater good of humanity, yet the mistakes of the past were repeated. At the start the Sansha's nation might have been a society like it can be seen in Fritz Lang's movie 'Metropolis' and like the movie, when the social uprest could not be contained Sansha turned to Cybernetics as the solution but brought it to an even more extreme level.

At first likely he had only his workforce implanted and when this worked well, he might have even started to implant the upper caste of his society with implants. Maybe with the promise of a more efficient society and with the offer to free the minds of his citizens of all the common worries or he intended to create a kind of hive mind, but in the end his project failed, since it was only Sansha's voice that mattered in the collective and his citizens losing their individuality because their own will and thoughts were overriden by the mind of Sansha Kuvakai in the center of the collective. The end result was perceived as so horrible that other empires banded together to smash Sansha's twisted vision.

For Sansha capsuleers would appear as his both his greatest dream and worst nightmare. Beings that left behind the boundaries of a mortal shell and free to roam the stars using cybernetics to become one with their ship, a perfect combination of man and machine. Yet they live the absolute contrast to Sansha's vision of order for a higher goal, the capsuleers are incarnations of chaos. For all the great power the capsuleers wield they also almost never seek enlightenment as Sansha would understand it but worship only the profit of their endeavors and the random killings of other capsuleers out of boredom.

So the Sansha's slaves would loathe the capsuleers, at least as far as they are still capable of feeling emotion, but this hatred would be mixed with envy for all the freedom they have and someone as Sansha Kuvakai might wonder if the capsuleers and not his dream of an utopia, are the next step in human evolution.

Regarding both the Sanshas and the capsuleers, the capsule is Jovian technology and it is still unknown why the enigmatic Jovians decided to give this extremely valuable piece of technology to the re-emerging empires, helping them to create a group of demi-gods.

To an outsider or capsuleer the question might raise, where Sansha got his mind controlling cybernetic technology. For all the all we know it is not exactly off the shelf amarrian technology and in fact some ancient technology might have found the way into Sansha's hands before he started his nation. In theory a connection with the Takmahl is possible, since the Takmahl were masters of cybernetics and bioengineering.

Nikita Alterana
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2010.06.16 01:46:00 - [3]
 

Dropbear you could be a sneaky ninja and ninja and account onto backstage. I don't think any of us would tell.

Silver Night
Caldari
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2010.06.16 02:38:00 - [4]
 

Few things more valuable than Dev input, even if you're not allowed to post on the forum itself. I went ahead and made a post to point out this post. Very Happy

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.06.16 10:15:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Deviana Sevidon

To an outsider or capsuleer the question might raise, where Sansha got his mind controlling cybernetic technology. For all the all we know it is not exactly off the shelf amarrian technology and in fact some ancient technology might have found the way into Sansha's hands before he started his nation. In theory a connection with the Takmahl is possible, since the Takmahl were masters of cybernetics and bioengineering.



That might be a hint to the positive Blood Raider-Sansha connection, a connection that might be older than most, even the common raider or Sansha activist, would know.

Though, this chapter from the Black Mountain chronicle series strongly suggest the Jovians had some involvement in the Sansha implants.

Aynen
Posted - 2010.06.16 11:36:00 - [6]
 

I could be completely missing the point here but wasn't Kuvakei quite clear allready about what he thinks about capsuleers? They 'are the result of a mistake'. And quite frankly, if I tried to create a utopia (which is what Kuvakei tried) by erasing the 'bad' aspects of people and making them cooperate with you, and then those people, before becoming immortal whiped my 'utoptia' off the map. Then if those same people would then become immortal, I'd be pretty ****ed. But that doesn't seem like a secretive thing to me, the information about that is pretty 'out there'. So are you perhaps referring to something else entirely Dropbear?

Lillith Blackheart
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2010.06.16 12:56:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Jowen Datloran
That might be a hint to the positive Blood Raider-Sansha connection, a connection that might be older than most, even the common raider or Sansha activist, would know.

Though, this chapter from the Black Mountain chronicle series strongly suggest the Jovians had some involvement in the Sansha implants.


Er, the True Slave background info actually spells out the Jove involvement in the first sentence:

Quote:
The brainchild of Sansha Kuvakei, developed with assistance from the Society of Conscious Thought and the Amarr Empire, True Slaves are the warriors and labourers of Sansha's Nation.


(from: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/True_Slave)

The Society being:

Quote:
The Society of Conscious Thought, or SoCT as it's commonly known, is one of the few remaining outposts of the Jovian people still accessible to the rest of the cluster, although only barely


(from: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Society)

So yes, the Jove were directly involved, this is known info. :)

Lillith Blackheart
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2010.06.16 13:03:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Aynen
I could be completely missing the point here but wasn't Kuvakei quite clear allready about what he thinks about capsuleers? They 'are the result of a mistake'. And quite frankly, if I tried to create a utopia (which is what Kuvakei tried) by erasing the 'bad' aspects of people and making them cooperate with you, and then those people, before becoming immortal whiped my 'utoptia' off the map. Then if those same people would then become immortal, I'd be pretty ****ed. But that doesn't seem like a secretive thing to me, the information about that is pretty 'out there'. So are you perhaps referring to something else entirely Dropbear?


Sansha doesn't feel they're a mistake by existing, at least that's what I get from it. The Capsuleers are a mistake because they're completely uncontrolled. Which means that effectively the empires are giving people the ability to fly weapons of mass destruction (and also mass awesome) without any sort of implications that they will do as they require of them. Meaning they just handed a whole bunch of loose cannons the most destructive weapons ever made.

That is the mistake. (By my judgement anyway).

The fact that Sansha can, with the True Slave technology, take some random person, slap some stuff in his head, then boom - you've got a new pilot of a supercapital in a matter of days is the evidence of this mistake. It takes him days to do something that takes us years.

The implications to Nation are vast, absolutely vast. It gives Nation the ability to not only become an actual power again, but to do it in the matter of weeks, and become a dominant force in the cluster simply by use of its industry (which it still has a great deal of via True Creations) and force.

They have crossed 10,000,000 people abducted. Imagine if they turned that into a fleet.

Who would stop them?

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.16 13:44:00 - [9]
 

If they were indeed able to have each of the 100000 as his own brand of capsuleers and assign each of them their own ship, then yes, nothing would be able to stop the Sanshas, but how likely is that?

100000 is greater then number of active capsuleers at any given time. Also while Sansha might indeed have hidden a lot of production capabilities, there are still limits. It is quite possible that the Sansha may be able to rebuild their Nation while the other empires are at war with each other, but any serious attempt to wrest control of Systems from the Amarr Empire, or risking a direct confrontation with one of the Nullsec Alliances could only end in disaster and is very unlikely to happen.

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
Posted - 2010.06.17 07:14:00 - [10]
 

As a note, I assume that even Sansha can't create new ingenuity. Sure, there might be a lot of skill hardwirings and similar things beyond the wildest dreams of the empire factions, but ultimately a potential for the skills must exist in the individual, and the implants focus these skills for the betterment of the Nation. (You can't just put a farmer to manage a factory etc.) Similarly, most of the folks captured would likely contribute on the industrial base and possibly if needed on the ground forces of the Nation. The few suitable ones would be wired into ships. It isn't like Sansha would immediately need everyone he can get to the "front lines", as Stain itself is in no danger yet - and the implications with the controlled wormholes is that in the case of a serious threat, the Nation could theoretically escape into W-space and make a group of W-space systems a practically impregnable fortress.

Havohej
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
Posted - 2010.06.18 05:09:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Silver Night
Few things more valuable than Dev input, even if you're not allowed to post on the forum itself. I went ahead and made a post to point out this post. Very Happy

How did I miss this? Embarassed

Mametha
Minmatar
Bellum Aeternum
Posted - 2010.06.18 09:41:00 - [12]
 

This just strengthens my suspicions that it's all linked somehow. Sleepers, wormholes, Sansha, Jove space, and empire space.

* Sansha uses artifical wormholes to empire space - but how do they create them, and where did they get this knowledge?
* Wormholes are a natural occurence that leads to wh-space, where you find artifacts from the Talocan who supposedly could create wormholes
* Jove has been remarkably unaffected - to my knowledge - by wormholes. No wh has been found leading to Jove-space, and there are no known Sansha attacks on Jove-systems, which leads me to believe that Jove knows how to block it. Which means they understand the science of it. Which means either that talocan and jove shared this knowledge way back, or that Jove is working in wormholespace.

So, there appears to be a triangle that is diffuse and obscure here: Sansha -> Talocan -> Jove; Sansha -> Jove -> Talocan. Or Jove -> Sansha -> Talocan, or Jove -> Talocan -> Sansha.

How this relationship works I have no clue, and this can of course all be dismissed as speculation. It probably is. However, trying to study the patterns of attacks, and the things it suggests, could maybe be useful - or lead terribly astray.

CCP Ginger

Posted - 2010.06.18 10:32:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
The recent chronicles and the book "The Burning Life" tend to picture the capsuleers as all evil, which is not neccessarily true. They are however capable of doing great evil, but at the same time of great good and both might be actually a matter of the point of view.



Im not sure how the point that "all" capsuleers are evil got supported, it was certainly never stated as such? However, if you look at the actions of the majority of capsuleers you will note that most would come off not too well by many people. Also, others might hail them as hero's for the same actions that others hail them as devils. It all depends on the context and alot of the time, who's getting shot in the face by whom.

Regardless, the portrayl of certain capsuleers in "The Burning Life" was in my opinion, particularly apt and a great insight into a facet of New Eden many hadn't really considered before or many chose to ingore (which again, if you think about it, might be exactly how capsuleers themselves would eventually act).

All in all, capsuleers are the most fascinating aspect of this game, in fiction and out of it.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.21 09:08:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 21/06/2010 09:10:09
Originally by: CCP Ginger

Im not sure how the point that "all" capsuleers are evil got supported, it was certainly never stated as such? However, if you look at the actions of the majority of capsuleers you will note that most would come off not too well by many people. Also, others might hail them as hero's for the same actions that others hail them as devils. It all depends on the context and alot of the time, who's getting shot in the face by whom.

Regardless, the portrayl of certain capsuleers in "The Burning Life" was in my opinion, particularly apt and a great insight into a facet of New Eden many hadn't really considered before or many chose to ingore (which again, if you think about it, might be exactly how capsuleers themselves would eventually act).

All in all, capsuleers are the most fascinating aspect of this game, in fiction and out of it.


Thank you for the reply.

The impression is basically from the chronicles of the last years. Beginning with Black Mountain, but also with information from other chronicles and The Burning Life. Organisations like the pirate groups hate capsuleers for the damage they cause to their groups. The agents who provide missions are nervous wrecks on the way to a burnout. That view is very dominant in most of the chronicles and even a capuleers trying to do some good, the result is extra-creepy as described in Prosopagnosia.

Yet the same groups that despise the capsuleers also have their own mission agents. Also the personel on a small deadspace outpost besieged by rogue drones or blood raiders might be quite happy to see a capsuleer.

In my point of view the agent/capsuleer relationship is a bit like handing out a 'letter of marque'. The organisation that hands out the mission has practically zero risk and the cost is, compared to deploying a regular fleet, negliable. The capsuleer is responsible for maintaining his ship and carrying out the mission at his own risk. No backup fleet will ever come to a capsuleer ship, except other capsuleers.

Aynen
Posted - 2010.06.21 12:14:00 - [15]
 

The idea that capsuleers are bad, for me, comes from interpreting real-life gamer actions in the game from a roleplay perspective. Which results in behaviour that seems quite fitting for an immortal pod pilot. They wreck stuff for the fun of it, go into wars for the fun of it, they don't often have high moral standards because they just don't care about the (npc) inhabbitants of the word of Eve. There are exeptions ofcourse, but on average, I'd say they make up a very small percentage of Eve gamers. How many of us even read the mission briefings to know who we're killing? And if you look at that from an RP perspective, it doesn't paint a pretty picture which fits in seamlessly with how pod pilots are described in such works as the Burning Life.


 

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