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Psycros
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:08:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Mussaschi
Simply said, a long time lie, becoming more and more true.

Eve is a on the way to become a solo pvp game.

Eve only delivers pve for beginners, after that you have to switch to pvp or a different game.

Astonishing, that a commercial company has the balls to drive out players, that don't want to follow there game idea. Well, some might say, very stuppid too, since in the very end, employees have to be paid.

ps. I would love to see a statistic, how many l5 have been done before and after tyranis. Hope the 50 players still actually doing them, enjoy them a lot.


Those employees would rather play an MMO where they can make and break the rules at will, than to have millions of happy users making them rich in RL. Which tells me that CCP is indeed a very stupid company undeserving of anyone's support.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:10:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Hathrul
though i can see why this has been "fixed", there is a slight problem

wtf else are you gonna do if you dont want to pvp? as said before, the lvl 5 agent systems are camped beyond reason. so yes, you can go there with a fleeet, but then, whats the point

as a 9 months old player or so, i can run lvl 4 missions in my sleep without paying attention to anything at all. simply said, there is no challenge. lvl 5 did give something to really try. in a fleet? give me a break, lvl 5 arent worth the effort, let alone the standing, and if the income is split over an entire fleet theyre probebly the worst income you can find. for lvl 5 to be worth the effort, you need to solo them, 2 players max.

this somehow feels like ccp is willingly removing any challenge out of the entire PvE part of Eve

So basically for you, 'Challenge' is equal to 'Earning Internet Spacegame Money'?

The two are QUITE distinct! You'll get MUCH more of a challenge when this is fixed running L5's, so you should be HAPPY!!!!

You claim you like challenge, but really, we can all see that you're lying on that... You just want easy earnings!

Muad' Dib
Gallente
PWNED FACTOR HOLDINGS
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:13:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 11/06/2010 19:16:43
Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 11/06/2010 19:02:19
Originally by: Muad' Dib
Only pirates and pirate groups will run lvl 5's now, with the ocasional idiotic mission runner coming in and attempting it ... dead content again.

How can content that is run by individuals and groups be dead?

Fact is, that these missions is and has always been intended to be for people who would be organised enough to fight BOTH the NPC's as well as any attackers. If you're not organised enough to do that, then the lovely rewards are not for you.

The bug that made them available elsewhere (and which was exploited by the whiners in this thread) is now being fixed! Twisted Evil

The solution of course is that you get your finger out and get organised enough so you can run them...
Originally by: Muad' Dib
It is not worth it to risk 2 ships - even insured t1 bs's, to run them in low unless you are blue with the locals.

Then get organised and blue with the locals...


Back before the new probing system, lvl 5s were pretty good, it was tough to find them, ppl would come in low to run them, and it was fun ganking them. You could not get them all but you had a decent chance to get them.
With the new system unless you are secured and i mean really secured, you won't be able to run them decently. It might be worth it, if the rewards matched the dangers, but they don't.
It's just not worth it, even if FW lp value drops to very low values, it will still be better for the low-sec individual to run those instead of lvl 5's.
What makes it even worse is the fact that some ppl abuse these missions to make 4-5b isk / day and all you need for it is a carrier alt which can take missions and 1 cyno alt.
There is way too much of a discrepancy.

They need to have their rewards buffed, made gated - all of them, so that ppl will actually fight over the area.

I ran them in both high and low, in low. with bs and with caps.

Originally by: Hathrul
though i can see why this has been "fixed", there is a slight problem

wtf else are you gonna do if you dont want to pvp? as said before, the lvl 5 agent systems are camped beyond reason. so yes, you can go there with a fleeet, but then, whats the point

as a 9 months old player or so, i can run lvl 4 missions in my sleep without paying attention to anything at all. simply said, there is no challenge. lvl 5 did give something to really try. in a fleet? give me a break, lvl 5 arent worth the effort, let alone the standing, and if the income is split over an entire fleet theyre probebly the worst income you can find. for lvl 5 to be worth the effort, you need to solo them, 2 players max.

this somehow feels like ccp is willingly removing any challenge out of the entire PvE part of Eve


They are doing it this way because it is less work time, in a few months you will see them say about what an evil ungated lvl 5's are and come down hard on those, conveniently forgetting they chose the easy way with this 'fix'.

gargars
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:14:00 - [124]
 

IMO (I know - no one cares lol) since you have high sec mission agents occasionally (or often) sending you into low sec, I can't see the problem with a low sec agent occasionally sending you into high sec to do a mission. Seems fair to me.

On the same subject, CCP's seeming dislike of mission runners is getting a bit too obvious lately... I mean this on top of the level 4 nerf.....

fab24
Gallente
Tax Fraud Corporation
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:16:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: fab24 on 26/06/2010 15:28:01
Another useless fix by the kings. GG.

Mattenshaw
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:17:00 - [126]
 

CCP thank you for the thread. Many laughs. Dumb carebears whining about having to actually pvp and not just kill NPCs. Makes me lol.

I might lose my nice ship due to pirates. WELCOME TO LIFE.

Bunch of whiners I hope you all quit so eve can be more fun for the rest of us.



Gehenna
Caldari
GunTacK InC.
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:23:00 - [127]
 

What year is this? How long have we been here?Why do we still have PVE? I've done forgotten. Cool

Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:24:00 - [128]
 

There was a time some of the offensive jerk behaviour I can see in this thread got you banned, but alas, everyone caves these days to 'net nastiness' because they can't see any difference between 'cold cruel harsh unpleasant' in-game vs just people being jerks in forums. The real crime is that some of the people doing it aren't even the childish teenagers from WoW; they purport to be mature adults, hiding behind their computers yelling insults that'd get them punched in the face if said in real life. Shame on you.

On topic - well, duh, it's a bug that needed fixing. Now CCP, go and do something useful like make mission fits obsolete in favour of PvP fits, then we can really talk about mission runners biting back and giving pirates what they need (more fun fights).

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:26:00 - [129]
 

Finally. Missions need more nerfing.
And, no, thats not sarcasm.

Yasuhiro Matsushita
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:28:00 - [130]
 

If it is unclear why something happend, you can be sure - it's all about money. CCP did not want to have considerably large number of players running solo/with own alt nice-profitting missions designed for a fleet. Income designed to a fleet (apparently for 4-6 peoples looking at the size of the rewards) was going into pocket of one person. In long perspective it would disturb economy significantly.

But there is other problem, noone even tries to address. As recently published quarterly economical study, CPI is 0% (no inflation). There are two major ISK producing sources:
- bounties
- mission rewards
I may fail to see and other substantial amount of ISKs coming to market. All manufactured goods, mined minerals or looted stuff has to be exchanged somehow. We can't just barter everything. There is a lot of voices about price drop, but apparently there can be not enough money in pure ISK for delivered, and too much in form of LP, salvage or loot that has to be sold.

Level 5 missions were not huge ISK generators, but significant overall income generators (via LPs mostly). Moving lv5s to 0.4-0.1 (it does not occur in 0.0 for well known reasons) should reduce (maybe even dramatically) supply of common LP goods like CNRs, CNammo and so on.

Maybe someone should think differently: IF there is so many peoples that want so famed CHALLENGE, meybe there should be intrduced level 4.5 (lvl4q20?) missions, with lv4 rewad and lv5 difficulty? Doing lv4s is mind numbing, not everyone has to like pvp (weather you like this statement or not), a lot of peoples want to play.

PS. Eve has 320.000 players. Wow has probably above 10 mils still. I bet, CCP would love to make money on the scale of Blizzard (who sane wouldn't?). PVE servers in WoW ar currently dominating in number of players (www.warcraftrealms.com). So maybe giving more PvE content would really attract more peoples?

fshepherd
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:29:00 - [131]
 

Thanks for the Change CCP :) look forwards to being able to mission :) and the cearbears, enjoy whinning finaly you did not get what you wanted :)

DERT2
Divine Intervention Enterprises
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:29:00 - [132]
 

my english is not very good so i write my idea about lvl 5 fix in Turkish language.

Sorry DERT2, English only please. Zymurgist

if you want to read this sentences , please use google translate or join MERKEZ chat channel for turkish translator players.

DERT2
MERKEZ Chat Channel Operator

Guns nButter
Stormlord Battleforce
Vanguard.
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:29:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Guns nButter on 11/06/2010 19:35:35
Read the first 2 pages and rofl'd.

Seriously? I didn't know there were this many pussies in EVE.

I support this change if it wasn't obvious.

edit: Now that I think about it, not surprising in the least. Still funny.

Phasmatisss
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:31:00 - [134]
 

Eve is "suppossed" to be a game that has something for everyone, not just pirates.

On a side note in my time in Eve I have noticed that almost invariably the rude, crude and generaly all around ignorant people I have met in Eve have mostly been pirates whom are intolerant of other peoples ideas and opinions. Whiners in other words.

Lord Union
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:32:00 - [135]
 

Quote:
OMG! WTF LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL wait wut! Howz Iz suppozed to make IZK's noez? You tardz arg! I'mma quiting EVE'z and playying ma Pally!1!1!1!



Ok, yeah... they nerfed the **** out of Level 5's. I'm pretty dissapointed at this move as well, but as I have a industrial character as well, it seemed a bit broken anyways with mission-reprocess loot making more ISK than actual mining (or, as some yarr-dom children would say, making boom-booms in the rock fields).

(Although I will say to those that do still mission run need to take up rig manufacturing if they want to increase their ISK income with their salvage, but that's my .02 ISK)

An alternative that CCP may also want people to consider, is colonizing wormhole space. The 'rats' there may be harder, but worth every bit of the salvage and loot in ISK when you send it all back to known space. Thanks to "Tyranus" as some mission runners may call it now, PI can allow for an independence of empire space in regards to vital POS fuel and ice mining. Wormhole colonizers will still have to run back to known space for ice, however (but that's not fully a bad thing since getting ganked in wh-space is very easy and more annoying than in a system with *gasp* stargates! and *gasp* map-able location!)

All in all... CCP wants to push the EVE population out of what they consider 'noob-space', and into the vast unknown. So I say, if you are a good mission runner with a heavy tank and friends, get some PI, a PoS, and enough Ice Products to last you a month and go into wh space. Go the extra mile and PvE in systems that you know will take an awful long time for pirates to find you in. Sure, as of now you have to go back to k-space for isotopes, and sure, getting stuck in wh space can be annoying as **** when your exit's aren't static...

but hell, it's better than dying like a ***** when the pirates find your faction fitted Rattlesnake running a lvl 5 in low-sec.

Shin Dari
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:35:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Yasuhiro Matsu****a

Maybe someone should think differently: IF there is so many peoples that want so famed CHALLENGE, meybe there should be intrduced level 4.5 (lvl4q20?) missions, with lv4 rewad and lv5 difficulty? Doing lv4s is mind numbing, not everyone has to like pvp (weather you like this statement or not), a lot of peoples want to play.
I would like that.

Phasmatisss
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:36:00 - [137]
 

Most wormholes have already been located and have pos's in them. Getting found in a WH quickly is common now a days.

Ghurthe
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:41:00 - [138]
 

Please just give us level 5 0.0 agents for the pirate factions.

Jason Dunham
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:43:00 - [139]
 

Aw, poor low sec pirates, not enough targets for them huh? Yet another decision by CCP that is going to mess up the economy. There are 3 sources of everything in the game: industry pilots who make it, CCP/NPC seeding, and mission/complex drops. If you make missioning less profitable (which the loot and salvage changes basically have) or make the risk too great (low-sec and null-sec missions increase) people will stop missioning. When they stop missioning, there will be less named items on market, which will make pvp and pirate fits more expensive.

Personally, I mission to build the ISK and skills to go out to null-sec pvp. I think low-sec and high-sec "pvp" is gay. I had just started doing lvl 5's and was looking forward to the profit to helping me afford ships to go out to null sec with. However, I'm not going to risk my mission ships in low-sec or null-sec, the profit isn't worth it. I'm no carebear, but you have to do something to fund pvp, and since I'm not gay and I don't gank, I have to mine or mission. Mining is horribly boring, so I'd rather mission.

This is yet another case of the pirates getting irritated because they can't find people to kill anymore. I don't feel that the game should be changed to fit what the minority wants. I'm not going to quit eve, I think it's a great game, but what makes it great is all the different things people can do. Not everyone has the time to pvp for a living, so you could lose some of your player base.

skychyld
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:52:00 - [140]
 

The people that are saying that there's an awesome amount of isk in lvl 4's obv hasn't ran any since tyrannis came out. There are so many best named mods dropped now that they arn't worth anything anymore. An Angel Extrav worth 40m May 24th is now worth 12m.... if you are lucky. There goes buying shiney deadspace/officer mods from ratters and plex runners in null. Now the lrg numbers of the player base in empire are scrambling for some other way to earn not only their plexes... but the things in addition to just paying for your account(s) every month that make the game worth playing. Everyone knows pirates only want to fight defenseless ships but it's a moot point since the few people that were willing to risk a faction BS are going to stop doing that because if they lose them... wheres the isk going to come from for another one?? Not from empire...... you have to run lvl 4's 14 hours a day now to make what you used to in 4 or 5 hours. Who cares now if a ninja enters your mish? Everything there cept for bounties is worthless wheras b4 there actually was a chance they could grab some wrecks and get a 10m isk mod.... well... no more of that...the mods that were worth that are now not even worth looting. I agree with the people that have said they think CCP is moving the game to either pvp only or a place where empire is only a place where new players briefly reside.... well... then become victims to the pvpers...lol I've never had a single pirate or "pvp master" teach me a thing. Hey that's ok... the new people will provide good sport for em... well... till they find another game as well.... Appears some players money is greener than others.... every single thing that CCP has introduced in the last 2.5 years has benefited onlt the pvpers....be careful what you wish for, you just might get it

Kyvon Glarner
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:55:00 - [141]
 

ive lived in 0.0 and WHs... but i do hisec missions now. my time is too limited to run a POS and constantly fuel it so i cant be in a WH. im also too inactive to be in 0.0 reliably and lvl 4s spawn a crapload of npc BSs to shoot more reliably than 0.0 ratting.

i'd move back out to the WH with my corp if i could be online, but i cant so thats why i do hisec missions.
also the connection here (when i get it) is ****, so i figure i'd either constantly get disc when in pvp or lag bad enough i'd lose every time. either way not everyone CAN pvp.

Haseo Arashi
Posted - 2010.06.11 20:06:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Yasuhiro Matsu****a
If it is unclear why something happend, you can be sure - it's all about money. CCP did not want to have considerably large number of players running solo/with own alt nice-profitting missions designed for a fleet. Income designed to a fleet (apparently for 4-6 peoples looking at the size of the rewards) was going into pocket of one person. In long perspective it would disturb economy significantly.

But there is other problem, noone even tries to address. As recently published quarterly economical study, CPI is 0% (no inflation). There are two major ISK producing sources:
- bounties
- mission rewards
I may fail to see and other substantial amount of ISKs coming to market. All manufactured goods, mined minerals or looted stuff has to be exchanged somehow. We can't just barter everything. There is a lot of voices about price drop, but apparently there can be not enough money in pure ISK for delivered, and too much in form of LP, salvage or loot that has to be sold.

Level 5 missions were not huge ISK generators, but significant overall income generators (via LPs mostly). Moving lv5s to 0.4-0.1 (it does not occur in 0.0 for well known reasons) should reduce (maybe even dramatically) supply of common LP goods like CNRs, CNammo and so on.

Maybe someone should think differently: IF there is so many peoples that want so famed CHALLENGE, meybe there should be intrduced level 4.5 (lvl4q20?) missions, with lv4 rewad and lv5 difficulty? Doing lv4s is mind numbing, not everyone has to like pvp (weather you like this statement or not), a lot of peoples want to play.

PS. Eve has 320.000 players. Wow has probably above 10 mils still. I bet, CCP would love to make money on the scale of Blizzard (who sane wouldn't?). PVE servers in WoW ar currently dominating in number of players (www.warcraftrealms.com). So maybe giving more PvE content would really attract more peoples?


Logical people make me smile.

missions bore me, but they are a needed form of influx of pure isk and not just valuable goods.
if no one is going to do level 5's anymore then we should start to see either a fall in LP items or figure out that the majority of the LP items are gained from things other than level 5s.
just sounds like an economics experiment to me tbh.

Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2010.06.11 20:08:00 - [143]
 

Can cry 'force' if it helps some of you feel better.

Not really forced to do anything. Either do it, or don't, or leave. Choice still remains yours.

If you want to claim CCP is forcing anything.. they are forcing people to make friends. Is that really so bad? I know it might be difficult for some of you, but this is after all an MMO.. and some aspects of it require other people's help/guidence/co-op to get things accomplished.

Want to do things alone.. may I suggest a single player game? There are millions of choices.

Brackstone
Posted - 2010.06.11 20:09:00 - [144]
 

I'm rather surprised at the level of complaints i am seeing. supply and demand is not complicated to understand, and it is probably the surplus of named items that brought their attention to this in the first place. now that they are harder to get to and you all obviously don't feel the risks are worth it, then what is in the market will dry up. When that happens the prices will rise again, and more and more people will find the risks worth the gains. as for the concerns about pirates in low and nul sec, loosen up your wallets and hire an escort. they are looking for easy targets, the laws of risk and gain apply to them as well.

Aldur vale
Caldari
The 1AU-High Club
Posted - 2010.06.11 20:11:00 - [145]
 

Hmm, there seem to be a few misinterpretations of the word exploit. Look it up.
CCP never said, until this post, that it was an exploit. Even then that is arguable as that specific word isn't used. (if you care, the words used were Long, Standing and Issue.) Anyway, This has taken 3 years to sort. Let me reiterate.
3 years,36 months, 1093 DAYS.
Go figure.

Carebears who have been doing level 5's in empire have potentially been doing so for a bloody long time and have never been told off for doing so. This would mean they are comfortable in the fact that they can do it, that it is a desired effect. CCP should have fixed it at the time instead of letting us get acclimatised to it.
Pirates can suck it. If carebears want to stay in empire, let them. If pirates want to gank n00bs that fly tech 1 frigates and then run off like wimps when anything even resembling a fair fight comes their way, let them. Who cares. A more challenging, higher rewarding set of missions means a fleet can get together of an evening and rock a few with no risk and lots of fun. EVE is a game right? I'm pretty sure it is. Games are a form of entertainment, apparently. What is the point in a game that will not allow the most challenging PvE events to be run in safety. There is 0, I mean totally 0 point in people risking 1bn< ships. Corps will not put together and risk a huge (or any) protection fleet just so a rattler, a logi and a T3 cruiser/T2 Battlecruiser can run one mission. The risk isn't fun, constantly looking over your shoulder is not fun. people don't find being ganked out of their faction BSs fun, unless they are seriously weird internet spaceship masochists.

I can understand why people would quit over this. Too many people just like to point and scream, RAGEQUITTER RAGEQUITTER RAGEQUITTER like a demented spastic suffering from extreme internet tourette's syndrome coupled with a lack of IQ, they are called Trolls. Nine times out of every ten they are pirates that don't live in empire, make their ISK in a different way and don't want to understand how important these missions are for a carebear's income. Missions are one way of playing the game, shut up and let them play it.

I think level 5s should be offered in high sec for pilots that wish to run them there, and in low/null sec so pilots can run them there if they wish. pretty much what it is already. It works, so don't fix it. Go fix some of the lag in Insmother
or hurry up getting Incarna ready for us, stop screwing with the player base or they'll hate you for it.

Silverlinings
Posted - 2010.06.11 20:12:00 - [146]
 

My dear Dear ccp,

Verry lovely and chirpy of you that you have decided to remove this feauture we havegrown so common toto replace it with what you had planned 3 years ago. Howeve,r This 3 years ago you also had the plan the create a bigger challange for the carebear missionrunners.

There was even a plan of moving L5 agents to highsec, and making a Level 6 agents for low / nil sec space for the real chalange as u would make it inpossible to solo level 5 and level 6 missions.

For us, "older players", it would be a warm welcome to recieve back the challange in the game again. Ican now solo all level 4 missions, and with specified setups the level 5`s wich i do not do can be done as well, but i would like a real PVE challange for us all, and i dont mean PVP, i mean PVE!!!

So, pritty please?!?!?!?!?!? Any nice and worthy challanges for highsec would be sooooo nice....

Morar Santee
Posted - 2010.06.11 20:17:00 - [147]
 

I enjoyed running lvl 5s in high-sec for a change of pace. It was nice to actually run a mission with corp mates and have it make sense. Trying to run lvl 4s with more than 1 person is economically ******ed, not to mention boring. So yeah, being able to interact with people over doing PvE was nice.

Sure as hell won't run these in low-sec/0.0. First off it's not worth it in risk/reward terms (not even close), and secondly: If I want to do low-sec/0.0 PVE, I'll run complexes. Why the hell would I do level 5s instead?

This change makes absolutely no sense and is a failed attempt to cater to.. what exactly? Low-sec PvPers? It's failed because it won't work. 95% the people who are running these missions agree they won't do so in low-sec (evident in this thread), so no, there won't be more targets for all the hardcore piwates who so bravely advertise PvP (of course only against PvE ships in mission sites - since piwates are so hardcore...... riiiiiiiiight...).


All this does is remove an enjoyable feature from the game, as far as viable alternatives go. That's the epitome of a horrible development decision.

Arcin Hamir
Posted - 2010.06.11 20:19:00 - [148]
 

Wow, glad you were able to prioritise this vital change that is of no interest to the majority of your user base. Just think you could have been wasting your time fixing assault ships, rockets or lag.

Karlemgne
Tides Of War
Posted - 2010.06.11 20:20:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: Karlemgne on 11/06/2010 20:29:26
I am a pirate, and don't run level 5s, so I don't mind this change so much.

I will chime up in a limited defense of the bears and say to those of you who are suggesting there is only a "slight" risk of getting ganked in a level 5: are you mad?

The risk of running level 5s and getting ganked, or probed out and unable to return (if you are a safe runner) for hours is moderate at the best times, and "high" at the worst.

I will also say that level 5s as they exist seem pretty pointless. Capital ships can't access enough of them and most of them, from my experience busting them, seem to be against faction navies.

I don't know about you, but if *I* were a mission runner, what I wouldn't want to do is farm missions that tank my standing to the factions I'm fighting in a mission to outlaw status in like 3 missions--for relatively little return given the risk.

It makes WAY more sense to run complexes in low-sec/0.0 than it does, currently anyway, to run level 5s.

Maybe fix that too CCP.

Shin Dari
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.11 20:23:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Shin Dari on 11/06/2010 20:26:43
Originally by: Umega
Can cry 'force' if it helps some of you feel better.

Not really forced to do anything. Either do it, or don't, or leave. Choice still remains yours.

If you want to claim CCP is forcing anything.. they are forcing people to make friends. Is that really so bad? I know it might be difficult for some of you, but this is after all an MMO.. and some aspects of it require other people's help/guidence/co-op to get things accomplished.
There are several problems with this argument of yours:
1. Most of us are already in a player corp (friends).
2. Typical low sec pirates are untrustworthy sociopaths with a sprinkle of cowardliness.
3. And most casual players have a life, and won't spend hours waiting for anything to arrive in a system.


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