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oneway89
Posted - 2010.06.17 18:37:00 - [691]
 

Originally by: Eleionomae
Basically low sec mission running is avoided by many because of griefers warping into the mission area and ganking someone who is already dealing with npc dps. It is unbalanced pvp. Balancing is important in games like this as everyone knows and it is the reason ships get nerfed.
How about getting rid of this imbalance. How about improved sleeper type npc ai so that if someone warps into the mission area they also get targeted ( and made primary target ) by the npc ships.
This would make things more interesting and more of a challenge for the griefers, they would have to think a little about how they fit their ships so they have tank as well as gank and it will amuse the mission runner to see the would be griefer blown up by the npc ships.
It's a win win situation.



Changing the standard AI (even if just in lv 5's) is probably the simplest way to make lv 5 at least reasonable on the risk reward scale. As it is the AI in eve need some serious reforms and always has. I mean seriously, eve basicaly doesn't have an agro system at all to its AI, it just targets the nearest PC filtered contact, orbits and fires (repeat as nessiary). Eve aswell is probably the only mmo developed in the last 15-20 years that can boast this. I do have some reservations about the functionality and target priority of the sleepers AI, particularly its fasination with drone agro, though im not against it, drone vs npc bs seems silly to me and nm that the BS will score hits.

But I'm getting off point, sharing the oncoming 2500dps in a lv 5 seems a suitable risk for the griefers given the potiental reward of taking down any ship down that could tank that much Very Happy. But then again i'm not entirely sure i trust ccp to change something like that without mucking it up. Particularly after that last round of sweeping drop changes and this. There doesen't seem to be a mind on keeping things accessable, functional, economicaly feasable and balanced ... at least not lately.

IMaster CerberusI
Posted - 2010.06.17 19:19:00 - [692]
 

I've read a couple of pages in this thread and I am sick of all the chest puffing bull**** that people are doing, honestly. The pvpers crying about risk, adapting and using your head. Let's see, so you hate minimizing risk, eh? You also like adapting and using your head, no? Well then lads, it looks to me like your a bunch of hypocrites, I am sure I am not the first to throw that accusation at you but I am probably one of the few to rationalize it in the way I am about to. So your good pro pvpers right, so why don't I see you awesome folks coming up to highsec and doing your shady business there in the light of all those nice shiny guns just waiting to rip your ass a new one and the endless swarm of CONCORD. Dear lord, I do believe your trying to reduce the risk of your profession, but why?! Your thrill seekers right?! Go wild! Blow the hell out of things and burn to a crisp with the consequences of your actions, but you don't want that do you...so why do you blame others for doing the same?
Oh lets not forget, you like adapting too and using your head, so what is the difference between you and those who avoid you and the environment you inhabit or do you think your so different in planning ops and ambushes from players in high sec. Face it, you do the same **** in a different place with different rules and you hate on other people because they don't want to play by your rules, its natural but it also removes any credit you ever have behind your arguments because it downgrades you to the same level you accuse high sec dwellers of being on.
I also hear people *****ing about the holy grail of bugs not being fixed that being lag in major fleet battles...man I have this radical notion of how about not using so many ****ing ships in combat? Really, any moron can make a bigger stick and beat his opponent with it and that's all you and everyone else are doing, how about doing some of that adapting and thinking your so fond of.
What's the bottom line to all of this? You have no right to come into this thread and ***** about people voicing their opinion on a part of a game they enjoy that was unreasonably removed after a very long period of time and then ***** about you not getting enough toys to play with. Have you ever wondered that you might just not be that special...you have this strange notion that when your a minority the game should revolve around your tastes when one of the selling points it boasts is providing content for as many areas of interest in scifi simulation for its players...

Why did I write all this? To show you what blind hypocrites you are, not that it makes a difference to me but my hope is it will eat at you on some level. I am sure one of you will ask "You mad?" No, I am not, I'd have to respect you first...

Noise Munga
Posted - 2010.06.17 19:58:00 - [693]
 

Ok, this seems to be the hottest topic I've seen in a while with regards to anger and tantrums. I have been watching this thread for quite a while maintaining an unassuming, silent & thoughtful self debate on the subject.

As someone who has done both carebearing and PvP (yes at the same time if need be)I feel i can see both sides of the arguement. I have lived in high sec, low sec and null sec and have observed some things that do truely make me think CCP has made the correct decision here.

CCP did make it perfectly clear when they started level 5s that they were intended to get people to FLEET UP and go out to somewhere they usualy would never dream of going (low sec). This was meant to provide a means for highsec PvE players to go and see that actualy lowsec isn't that scarey when you work in a team. This in turn would feed players into the world of PvP and get people to use all that lowsec space that was just empty, wasted resource, languishing on the server. Unfortunatly they dropped the ball when it came to the mission locations which has somewhat ruined the idea they set out to create. People have got used to doing these missions in high sec with very little risk and god forbid... doing them solo??? Rest assured this was not intended AT ALL!

So CCP have seen this (it took far too long but i'm getting to that)and decided it is hurting gameplay to an extent that some mission runners have based their entire career around doing the level 5s in highsec. How is this hurting gameplay i hear you ask? Well it's for the reason I have mentioned above, people have been using the highsec missions for the exact opposite of what they intended in the first place. It was keeping people in high sec not getting them to spread their wings and have some fun experiencing the other 90% of the vastly diverse game they pay so much a month to play.

Now you have to admire CCPs logic here, I mean this just shows you how different they are. Rather than observe that yes there are lots of people in highsec compared to lowsec and then change the game bit by bit to serve the masses, they have carried on doing what they set out to do in the first place (Insert "harsh cruel universe/ this 'aint hello kitty" reference here). This means they are basicly out and out saying "We have built all this stuff now go out and bloody well use it!" This is what makes CCP great. They know they have built something amazing and when they see perhapps 70% of the playerbase not using it it makes them a sad panda. They know it's great, some of the players know it's great...so why dont the others?...

The myths.

1.Lowsec is full of nasty pirates just looking to gank people. - This is a little wrong, yes there are pirates in lowsec BUT with a little teamwork these are easly avoidable. It costs nothing to loose a noobship, im sure one of your friends wont mind scouting in one for the right price. Failing that a cloaky friend would do a better job but you risk more isk... isk / return kru look here lol

2. Everyone in lowsec is a pirate YARRRR!!..... I go lowsec and I'm anti pirate. ("What you sayin fool?")

3.I cant do the level 5 in lowsec because I'll loose my CNR faction fit battle pawnage mobile. - If you still think this then you obviously missed the part above about being in a FLEET. Two cheaply fit PvP cruisers would probably have your Faction BS or marauder for breakfast if they worked well as a team. Come back with freinds... 2 drakes, a basilisk or scimitar and a scout and they will run or die. TEAMWORK..its the name of the game here. you dont need ridiculously expensive ships to do this in if your team covers all the bases (DPS/Tank/Ewar/Tackle/Scout).

4.I only want to play the game by myself.- Less of a myth, more of a gripe. Unfortunatly eve does not cater too well for the solo player unless you are into PvP and very good at it. You want more exciting PvE? Get some freinds people! sheesh!
(sorry i know this is a rant )..ctd

Noise Munga
Posted - 2010.06.17 20:15:00 - [694]
 

Edited by: Noise Munga on 17/06/2010 20:18:58
5. People in 0.0 and lowsec would have no-one to blow up if it werent for carebears - Not true at all! most people out there kill each other belive it or not. Carebears are a rare occurance since Providence fell lol

After all that has been said above, dont any of you feel like having a go? You wanted a challenge well this is one! You may loose ships at first but these will be cheap ships you can afford to loose. You will learn quickly what to do and your fleet will start to be able to deal with any situation that gets thrust upon you and who knows, you and your freinds may just enjoy blowing up that pirate who thought he was gonna get an easy kill.

I know it's been a bit unfair on you lot who trained up just to do level 5s in high sec. The blame really does lie with CCP for leaving it so long and letting you all just get used to it. They should kinda apologise a little for misleading you but that is no reason for the problem to not be adressed.

Look at it from this point of view aswell: If you can only make about 40-50mil an hour ratting in nullsec risking it all, why should someone be able to earn twice that and risk nothing? Please dont whine about Isk/Hour ratios and if you feel the need to just listen to the chorus from this song Linkage Very Happy

UnderDog Lady
Posted - 2010.06.17 21:33:00 - [695]
 

tl;dr

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2010.06.17 23:14:00 - [696]
 

Originally by: Bent Almskou
What was supposed to be a Sandbox is getting tweeked all the time to suit CCP's needs.

...

Just dont call it sandbox When CCP always meddles in.

I can confirm that you've totally missed the concept of what a sandbox game is...

It doesn't mean that you get to do everything you like the way you like it and damn all the rest!

It means that you get the sand, and the toys, and THEN you can use them as you wish!

Sometimes a new type of sand is put into the sandbox, sometimes a toy breaks and a new different one is put in, and sometimes a manufacturing fault is discovered in a toy and fixed.
The last is exactly what is being done with L5's!

The EVE sandbox has three areas. The first area is for the small children and is supervised by adults who'll not tolerate misconduct. The toys in this area are small and fluffy.
The second area is for the bigger kids and has larger toys. The adults keep a distant eye on it, and if some of the bigger kids get too much out of line will give them a stern talking to.
The third area has the best toys and no adult supervision. Everything goes!

You have chosen to play in the small children's area of the sandbox, and thus doesn't get to play with anything but the small fluffy toys.

Laughlyn Vaughns
Gallente
Lagos-Vaughn Industries
Posted - 2010.06.17 23:24:00 - [697]
 

i thought we we're told teh lv5 missions were put in empire systems in order for people to work together instead of just bringing coupel of dreads along and clearing it out with just 2 people. but then we all thought that level 5 mission wouldnt just take a dual xlbooster CNR with a backup basilisk providing cap for the tank. may not best idea but the 2 of us do get aboput 80k lps an hour each.

Von Einstein
Posted - 2010.06.18 00:05:00 - [698]
 

I like to run missions solo.
I like to make isk... Running missions solo.
Since I started to play eve 4 years ago I allways trained my character to run missions... Solo.
When I found out I could run lvl 5's in high sec I trained even further to play with other ships and setups, using several on the same mission, not at once, alternating, thus being able to run lvl 5 missions... Solo.
I am still training to be able to run the most difficult Lvl 5's... Solo.

So I like to run missions solo. Hard and profitable missions. And I've been paying every month to be able to do so... SOLO!

So whats the story CCP? Any problem in having fun the way I like, or do I have to pay to play in order that other players who have different game styles enjoy more of the game? Shouldnt all players enjoy the game, playing as they like? Or should we just continue to antagonize different game style players and be antagonized by them?

I'd like to play as I like, I'd like that everyone do the same, and I dont really care if I'm a carebear or a deathbear or even a grizzly bear. In the end, we're all bears... Paying bears.

MenAreMy Slaves
Posted - 2010.06.18 01:19:00 - [699]
 

Edited by: MenAreMy Slaves on 18/06/2010 03:42:50
Edited by: MenAreMy Slaves on 18/06/2010 03:13:31
I've done Level 5 mission's quite often on the occasion that that spawned in high-sec and have spec'd my character on doing so. Changing the level 5 mission so that they will only spawn in low sec / null space just means I can afk level 4's alot faster for the same profit.

There will still be those care bears that do level 5 missions in low sec, but what they're not telling you is they are actually the pirate's alt's. Funny at that pirates complaining about care bears when in fact everyone in this game has to do care bearing in one form or another. Way to call the kettle black. Secondly pirates and there corporations more and likely won't attempt to do level 5 mission for "OMG I gained sec status" that might hurt their ego's to much to think that they might be able to go to high-sec one day.

You don't see many care bears complaining about what needs to be fixed and such it's mainly the pvp'ers that think they are the top dog's in the game. (Case in mind 1. Speed nerf because pvp groups where unable to field a web and could track something without a tank. If ya webbed it it would go boom imagine that)

But on the side note why we are fixing bugs/ gameplay

1. Why bother trying to fix the game lag, there not alot of lag in high-sec... Oh wait it's because a bunch of tards feel they must mash button's on a keyboard and mouse to do what??? "HAHA i killed your ship in a game im the bomb diggy"

2. Super carrier's need to be nerf for the fact that fighter bomber's can out damage a titan seems odd.

So leave the care bears to at least have a direction to be headed with where the can fly safer, mission safer, and even mine safer without the interference of pvp hostile's because we all know how safe high-sec is with all the suicide gankers that get dealt with.... Oh yea they don't
But since everyone else wanted to rant on something that CCP doesn't read I joined the group. And btw flame on pirate troller's cause that's all you are really good at.

If care bears are this upset with this change we could show CCP a strike for a week.. ponders what there response would be if their normal numbers of 30-40k miraculously dropped to under 15k for the whole week. Might get the attention one would think

Edit
As for a side note PvP is the same as PvE. You find yourself out numbered by a larger gang that your scout has reported that is on the next gate and your chance's of survival is slim to none. What do you do in your environment then.. Wait is that not Person vs Environment at all so why not jump in and kill yourself for the sure enjoyment of calling yourselves pvper's. The TRUE Person vs Person are the Solo missioner's as we are 1 person vs the intelligence of another person's computer program. So all you so-called pirate's and blob machine's that think they're the best Pvper's in the game are still only Second best.

Razgar Patnovich
Posted - 2010.06.18 05:08:00 - [700]
 

First, I want to make it clear that I am very much against this change. I understand the fact that level 5s were intended for low-sec, but I think low-sec was much different back then. I used to go into adjoining low-sec systems frequently as they were never very occupied and there were few pilots. Today, due to this patch, low-sec is busy and pirates are everywhere -- I have been ganked several times in missions and have to say that the ratio is very high, definitely over 70% of missions run see pirates. Do we operate expensive ships? No. Are we prepared? As much as we can be, with a PvP fit ship running missions in low-sec; however, the pirates are running expensive T2 ships in well-coordinated gangs of 6 or 7 ships.

The rewards for running a level 5 are not worth this risk, period. We stand to lose a minimum of 200M on 4 ships running a level 5 for what reward? Crap salvage and a bundle of LPs split 4 ways? The end result for me, is that I am no longer happy as a mission runner and don't necessarily want to move off into null. The level 4 missions as they exist now are too easy and I run them semi-afk -- the only real challenge left for mission runners was level 5s.

All in all, if low-sec was more like it used to be, then the odd pirate would be nothing to deal with -- this is not the case any more. Will I continue playing Eve? I can't answer that question yet, but I can tell you that I'm bored and have lost a lot of interest.

CCP I hope that you're listening because you are losing customers by making changes like this. If you give something to someone, even if it's by mistake, you've given it to them and they're using it. It's a huge mistake to take things away from customers with the "it wasn't meant to work like that" excuse. It was working like that for years and people have been using it, as is more than evidenced by this lengthy thread.

Coming from a customer service background myself, the best action is to back out the change, apologize, and move forward with something new and better.

Cheers!

Lyta Hawkins
Amarr
Patriots and Tyrants
Posted - 2010.06.18 06:06:00 - [701]
 

Without more variety and more seeding of L5 missions I fail to understand how this fix did anything meaningfully productive in the long run.

Celest Deanna
Posted - 2010.06.18 06:37:00 - [702]
 

CCP what are you doing to your very part time gamers
I play eve as much as I have the time for it which is about 4-5 hours a week there is not much a person who plays that little can do besides missions I love your training system it is the only one of its kind that lets me have just as many skills has someone who plays 23-7 having dropped out of all the other big mmo's because of frustration over not improving due to lack of time played I've been running level 5 missions in hisec for about 6 months with an RL buddy we ran every Friday night for about 3 hours and had a good time since Tyrannis we don't play at all anymore there is no reason to play with a friend on a level 4 and I have to say my account has only a few days left on it and I'm about to shut her down however good luck with EVE in the future

Jazz Tangle
Posted - 2010.06.18 07:46:00 - [703]
 

I'm with Noise Munga on this one. Well said Noise!

Trigg3r Happy
Posted - 2010.06.18 08:12:00 - [704]
 

Originally by: MindRanger

make some new Level 6's for lowsec.


No kidding. Make some missions that some day we can do in our tech 3 bs's solo Razz

andrew coe
Minmatar
Calimae Logistics Foundation
No Apology
Posted - 2010.06.18 09:20:00 - [705]
 

In eve missions are a big source of isk for many players. It takes quiet a bit of skilling to fly the ships needed and to maintain a strong tank to do them. This is particularly the case doing them solo. I believe eve needs to have something more rewarding then level 4 missions. Level 5 missions even though dont give much in isk do reward well in lp. The concept of level 5 missions in high sec then introduce level 6 for low sec and null is valid. The game dynamics have changed alot as has been said with more skilled players larger and more frequent ganking fleets. So I feel the current mission lay out needs to change. Most players seem to hit the wall once they reach level 4 and the jump to level 5 is some what large. Sure have missions in low sec and null space call it level 6 and have level 5 missions in high and the rewards balanced out accordingly. The fact that a large number of players mission should justify a change. The current system needs a overhaul. Maybe with level 6 missions have npc ships drop better loot. I think npc elite bs need to drop more then t1 mods . If the game is to reflect true to life experiences and reality then I would imagine a kick ass bs would be equipt with better then mediocre equipment. My 2 cents worth or maybe more.

Dirlewanger
Posted - 2010.06.18 09:32:00 - [706]
 

There are a lot of arguments, ranging from the:
"we don't want to go where we'll be mobbed"
to
"there's not enough prey, now they must come to us to get their ass kicked."
The "they should adapt thing so there's fair fights" is just the sort of buzz you get when a government decides to do state terrorism and dress its actions with some fake claim.
Of course no pirates would ever WANT a fair fight. Its against the EVE ethos. If the missioners bring stronger ships and actually win, the pirates call friends and go get the big guns.

But lets examine a solution for helping missioners:
1 – change aggro of rats. Make them detect new arrivals. A quick check. Are they passive tank? BLOW THEM UP. This is just logic: attack those who’ll fall faster, and a passive tank that can’t replenish is a really good target.
2 – Players are fighting one another? Shoot the criminals. Just switch fire and put all your dps in them.

This way, you help people have a chance in low-sec and its not only carebears who must adapt, pirates too. So everybody has a chance for some inner growth. Not just pirates for some looting.

This way they actually risk carebears who are counting on them to appear to scram and web them and let the rats do the work for them. Exactly the tactic the piwates usually apply.

Saveritas
Posted - 2010.06.18 10:33:00 - [707]
 

Originally by: Dirlewanger
There are a lot of arguments, ranging from the:
"we don't want to go where we'll be mobbed"
to
"there's not enough prey, now they must come to us to get their ass kicked."
The "they should adapt thing so there's fair fights" is just the sort of buzz you get when a government decides to do state terrorism and dress its actions with some fake claim.
Of course no pirates would ever WANT a fair fight. Its against the EVE ethos. If the missioners bring stronger ships and actually win, the pirates call friends and go get the big guns.

But lets examine a solution for helping missioners:
1 – change aggro of rats. Make them detect new arrivals. A quick check. Are they passive tank? BLOW THEM UP. This is just logic: attack those who’ll fall faster, and a passive tank that can’t replenish is a really good target.
2 – Players are fighting one another? Shoot the criminals. Just switch fire and put all your dps in them.

This way, you help people have a chance in low-sec and its not only carebears who must adapt, pirates too. So everybody has a chance for some inner growth. Not just pirates for some looting.

This way they actually risk carebears who are counting on them to appear to scram and web them and let the rats do the work for them. Exactly the tactic the piwates usually apply.


I actually like this idea. Also, I think people should stop whining. Level 5 was always intended to go low-sec/nullsec, so be happy that it finally is. Trained to do them solo? Stupid of you, as you could've known that someday they would go lowsec. That was just expected.

All of you carebears (including me) can just go back to farming level 4 missions for less isk/hour ratio! Be happy, it still is an amazing load of isk.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2010.06.18 11:37:00 - [708]
 

I'd like to claim a pocket of 0.0 solo but other players probably won't let me ;)

If you like to solo, your options are significantly more restricted. That's how EVE works.

You are supposed to interact with other players. Local pirates continously probing your missions? Negotiatie for standings and farm to your heart's content (herp derp that's a ton of people in 0.0 do, rent, aint such a novel concept). Etc etc. Gang up.

Yoú'd think with all the l5 whiners in this thread there'd form some 500 man corp and farm them in lowsec quite damn safely, but no, 500 of them all want to solo farm.




Fumitsugu
Posted - 2010.06.18 12:02:00 - [709]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko

Yoú'd think with all the l5 whiners in this thread there'd form some 500 man corp and farm them in lowsec quite damn safely, but no, 500 of them all want to solo farm.



What Branko said.

But, you know, what would be an even better solution would be thousands of mostly uninhabited systems filled with tough, challenging targets with a fascinating backstory. What would be even better would be if they were like, right next door to any high sec system I happen to find myself in, and they dropped an enormous amount of valuable loot.

Oops!

Yasuhiro Matsushita
Posted - 2010.06.18 13:45:00 - [710]
 

It is about ISKs. But there is one thing underneath: jaelousy. Some peoples simply can't stand that other are smarter, better prepared and can make more in their life. Same in game. Some pirates, oh excuse me, I'm insulting pirates, I ment greief-hunting s&*#%*Q%&#s (longer part of *&#$ here) can't live that someone can make more money and have fun about it!! Their attitude is "I can't so onne should be allowed". And CCP actually listens to them. This is called communism. We know it doesn't work. In Eve we'll have to wait 1 year to see drop in income.

With new sci-fi MMO comming out to the market Eve will not be so unique anymore. Games like "Dark Prophecy" will attract new players --> no money gain for CCP. Carebears will decide that if they can't do what they like will leave --> money loss for CCP. As a result industrialists and miners will see market going down with decrease of playerbase.

And again - PvP doesn't generaet and ISKs. ISKs are only generated through:
- Bounties: for NPC or players
- Mission rewards
- NPC seeded buy orders
- Insurance frauds

All other activities including but not limited to: mining, mission/rat loot and salvage, moon mining, gas harvesting etc. are generating some kind of goods or materials that has to be either traded for other goods or paid with barter-equivalent: ISKs. Pvp does not generate even single ISK (unless it refers to part bounties), only motion to replace lost ships and modules. And as a last words for all high-sec lv5 haters: who's gonna supply market with all those imperial navy nanomembranes and other equipement?

Selvitarm
Posted - 2010.06.18 23:56:00 - [711]
 

Originally by: Dirlewanger
There are a lot of arguments, ranging from the:
"we don't want to go where we'll be mobbed"
to
"there's not enough prey, now they must come to us to get their ass kicked."
The "they should adapt thing so there's fair fights" is just the sort of buzz you get when a government decides to do state terrorism and dress its actions with some fake claim.
Of course no pirates would ever WANT a fair fight. Its against the EVE ethos. If the missioners bring stronger ships and actually win, the pirates call friends and go get the big guns.

But lets examine a solution for helping missioners:
1 – change aggro of rats. Make them detect new arrivals. A quick check. Are they passive tank? BLOW THEM UP. This is just logic: attack those who’ll fall faster, and a passive tank that can’t replenish is a really good target.
2 – Players are fighting one another? Shoot the criminals. Just switch fire and put all your dps in them.

This way, you help people have a chance in low-sec and its not only carebears who must adapt, pirates too. So everybody has a chance for some inner growth. Not just pirates for some looting.

This way they actually risk carebears who are counting on them to appear to scram and web them and let the rats do the work for them. Exactly the tactic the piwates usually apply.




honestly the npc's would never shoot the criminals they would see them as like minded individuals and kill the people with positive sec status as they have killed more members of the pirates faction most likely

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.19 00:50:00 - [712]
 

Quote:

It is about ISKs. But there is one thing underneath: jaelousy. Some peoples simply can't stand that other are smarter, better prepared and can make more in their life.



Since when farming missions has become something for smarter and better prepared people, that can do more in their life?
I'd expect some of this elite talk by some BoB guy tbh. Oh wait, I was in their alliance and maybe 1% of them is like that.


Quote:

With new sci-fi MMO comming out to the market Eve will not be so unique anymore.



You are greatly mistaken.
CCP is unique and there is only 1 other game in the last 5 years that even tried EvE's style "unconsensual everything sandbox" and it's not even SCI-fi based.

Needless to say, that other game has few tens of thousands players as well.

It's a damn hard choice NOT to go with the failtrain of "zillion subs for the first 3 months then crash sub 200k subs" clones.
I sincerely wish you were true, but I only see craptastic stuff like STO in the future, not EvE-alike.


Quote:

Carebears will decide that if they can't do what they like will leave --> money loss for CCP.



Carebears and solo farmers have never been relevant. No one will miss them but some CCP exec.
They are why minerals crash, why faction mods tend to lose value down to 500 ISK / LP and so on.

The only, single, unique thing they do is to clog valuable CPU and "make presence" in the concurrent online counters. They don't even need to pay a subscription, does not take anything elite to farm a PLEX.

At this point I am already seeing a lemming train of chest beating, dress ripping lemmings going to flame about how they pay PvP with PvE.
Well, those are NOT carebears, those are useful or at least an active asset of the game and those tend not to cry about having to grind L4 vs L5 vs anomalies etc.


Quote:

who's gonna supply market with all those imperial navy nanomembranes and other equipement?



All those "pirates" of yours are not going to cry over the lack of faction membranes, they use T2 like almost everyone else who does not do missions.
Also, in my particular case, I want (and not *need*) some faction items to pimp my mission boats because I am missioning again.
This because I want about 20 BPOs, the cheapest being 3.3B Rorqual BPO ASAP and I know few faction items help.
All of them don't need any "bear" around to be farmed, they are all easily achieved without ever leaving my hub and I or anyone else can get them without a cloud of farmers around to pretend they are useful to others.

Furthermore, when I was in NPC 0.0, there were fat agents to grind nice ships and stuff without anyone off hi sec having to move a finger.

Ori Blake
Posted - 2010.06.19 15:50:00 - [713]
 

Originally by: Noise Munga
CCP did make it perfectly clear when they started level 5s that they were intended to get people to FLEET UP and go out to somewhere they usualy would never dream of going (low sec). This was meant to provide a means for highsec PvE players to go and see that actualy lowsec isn't that scarey when you work in a team. This in turn would feed players into the world of PvP and get people to use all that lowsec space that was just empty, wasted resource, languishing on the server.


If that's the case, then CCP are the most incompetent designers ever made. If you want to get people into lowsec, you don't design high-end, difficult content that can lead to significant money loss when disrupted. You aren't getting risk-averse people into low by forcing them to ante up a large, vulnerable ship, even if done in fleets.

That would be like needing a t2 ship just to start learning about PvP as a noob.

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So CCP have seen this (it took far too long but i'm getting to that)and decided it is hurting gameplay to an extent that some mission runners have based their entire career around doing the level 5s in highsec. How is this hurting gameplay i hear you ask?... It was keeping people in high sec not getting them to spread their wings and have some fun experiencing the other 90% of the vastly diverse game they pay so much a month to play.


They can already do this though, and some do.

-they can join RvB.
-they can go on lowsec roams with cheap ships
-they can get wardecced and fight it out
-they can join factional warfare singly or as a corp.

all of these have less overall risk and are better ways to introduce people to lowsec.

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Rather than observe that yes there are lots of people in highsec compared to lowsec and then change the game bit by bit to serve the masses, they have carried on doing what they set out to do in the first place...This means they are basicly out and out saying "We have built all this stuff now go out and bloody well use it!" This is what makes CCP great. They know they have built something amazing and when they see perhapps 70% of the playerbase not using it it makes them a sad panda. They know it's great, some of the players know it's great...so why dont the others?...


Because it's really not that great for the others, who like different aspects of the game. When 70% of the playerbase is not using something, rather than continually crow "But it's great!" and trying to push people into doing it, you should take a harder look at why those 70% aren't.

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The myths.

1.Lowsec is full of nasty pirates just looking to gank people.


No, it isn't. But pirates will go where the targets are. Eventually lowsec mission hubs will form, and get saturated with pirates.

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2. Everyone in lowsec is a pirate ..... I go lowsec and I'm anti pirate.


Pirate or not, most people will take potshots at fat targets if they can.

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3.I cant do the level 5 in lowsec because I'll loose my CNR faction fit battle pawnage mobile. - If you still think this then you obviously missed the part above about being in a FLEET.


This is bloody stupid. So what if you are in a fleet? While you are doing the level 5 the fleet members are all engaged fighting rats and keeping each other alive. Unles you are going to bring a whole PvP fleet and a separate one to do the actual l5,its not gonna be much difference.

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4.I only want to play the game by myself.


Why not? Other careers can: salvager, explorer, trader, insustry. Why should only mission runners be hit?

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5. People in 0.0 and lowsec would have no-one to blow up if it werent for carebears


This is true. Outside of the FW systems, 0.0 entry points, and pirate hubs lowsec is barren. Otherwise why are we even having this problem, and why put missions in lowsec anyways, if the current situation is target-rich?

continuing...







Ori Blake
Posted - 2010.06.19 16:08:00 - [714]
 

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After all that has been said above, dont any of you feel like having a go? You wanted a challenge well this is one! You may loose ships at first but these will be cheap ships you can afford to loose. You will learn quickly what to do and your fleet will start to be able to deal with any situation that gets thrust upon you and who knows, you and your freinds may just enjoy blowing up that pirate who thought he was gonna get an easy kill.


This makes no sense in the context of level 5s. This makes sense for trying low-sec in general, but you need to remember they are doing this in the context of trying to do difficult PvE content at the same time, using still expensive ships that can tank and survive the rats. Expensive, not very mobile ships that aren't the best for PvP because you need to tank multiple rats: the PvE setup wont change even if you use cheaper ships.

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Look at it from this point of view aswell: If you can only make about 40-50mil an hour ratting in nullsec risking it all, why should someone be able to earn twice that and risk nothing? Please dont whine about Isk/Hour ratios and if you feel the need to just listen to the chorus from this song


I'm not an expert on the ISK making aspect of this, but looking at these posts they have said that it takes seriously expensive ships both in ISK and in skill training time along with multiple accounts. Many people have said that L4s are better overall.

Again, if ISK/LP generation are a problem, just nerf the payout. That way you keep the same content and people can still do it for fun, but they can't abuse it.

If the point is to get people in lowsec, these wont work. If you want to get people in via missions, make missions that wont expire that give you rewards if you kill other players in various ship types, or even ones where you just survive.

It's funny how dumb CCP is compared to other developers when it comes to this. Aion gives you very lucrative missions where you get rewards for going into the PvP zone, and you get rewarded for actually killing people, not make-work tasks that set you up to be vulnerable. Even the make-work they do have doesn't pin you in place over time like CCP missions do.

If you want to get carebears into lowsec, don't nerf them, encourage them to straight up fight through missions. Don't encourage them to be targets that can't easily fight back. Reward even failure, to a point: if you get blown up in a PvP mission, give reduced LP and ISK rewards while limiting payout of such enough to prevent abuse. Even a small amount has good psychological effects, because you still progress.

The nerf/force way is just stupid when EvE currently as is has no reason to PvP at all. It's pure loss of ship and material for an experience which isn't that fun. Work on making incentives and making the experience fun win/lose, and watch lowsec get people.


UFO12
Posted - 2010.06.19 16:21:00 - [715]
 

Seems we are already too boring cutomers so CCP try everything posible to kick out as much of us as possible.
What are stupied excuse to say 3 years old "bug" is "fixed" already.I am impresed whith CCP support and "wise" developers decisions. CCP how much of your team play that game as regular player and if , how much time spend for playing per week???

Ehranavaar
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.19 21:41:00 - [716]
 

3.I cant do the level 5 in lowsec because I'll loose my CNR faction fit battle pawnage mobile. - If you still think this then you obviously missed the part above about being in a FLEET. Two cheaply fit PvP cruisers would probably have your Faction BS or marauder for breakfast if they worked well as a team. Come back with freinds... 2 drakes, a basilisk or scimitar and a scout and they will run or die. TEAMWORK..its the name of the game here. you dont need ridiculously expensive ships to do this in if your team covers all the bases (DPS/Tank/Ewar/Tackle/Scout).

the big ugly and very fatal flaw in this is that if you have a fleet of 6 ships they will show up with 9. fleet 9 of your friends in and they'll show up with 15 guys.
another problem is that if you are trying to actually make an isk doing level 5's your max fleet size isn't very large before the split makes doing level 4's solo far more attractive.

oneway89
Posted - 2010.06.19 22:06:00 - [717]
 

Originally by: Ori Blake
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Look at it from this point of view aswell: If you can only make about 40-50mil an hour ratting in nullsec risking it all, why should someone be able to earn twice that and risk nothing? Please dont whine about Isk/Hour ratios and if you feel the need to just listen to the chorus from this song


I'm not an expert on the ISK making aspect of this, but looking at these posts they have said that it takes seriously expensive ships both in ISK and in skill training time along with multiple accounts. Many people have said that L4s are better overall.

Again, if ISK/LP generation are a problem, just nerf the payout. That way you keep the same content and people can still do it for fun, but they can't abuse it.



I think its sort of apparent that someone needs to specificaly clarify how much isk a lv 5 potential yields here, I hear alot of talk of income from ppl that don’t run lv 5’s or even missions at all, and have little to no clue about what there talking about. (not you Ori, the guy your quoting and the other 30 guys like em through this thread)

For starters a lv 5 mission will yield roughly 40-50 mil an hour in a ratio of 75% lp, 5% bounties and 20% drops (before loot nerf), so he isen’t entirely wrong. The reason why it doesn’t work in a gang is the average lv 4 runner can make between 10-13mil an hour not counting lp or drops, so a 4 man gang and your already even, if not at a loss. The mission itself will have a higher average (higher then lv 4’s) of faction missions, so there is a potential for massive standing dmg with enemy empires. (With zero chance of faction drops)

The dps range will be around 1500-2600 oncoming dps of spec dmg type of your enemy, aswell as 500 or more cap neut per second (usually 2 to 5 turrets, roughly equivalent to pos neut turrets). Enemies will most likely be spread over 1-3 rooms max, this is why there is such high dps. There are a grand total of 5-6 sub-capital ships in the game that can make this range solo (depending on racially dmg types), with faction modules and t2 rigs, there are 2-3 that can meet it with logistics support aswell. There are maybe a grand totally of 2 that can with a changing spec tank, tank all of the possible lv 5 missions. Minimum for one of these ships (all faction or t2-3) just in modules and rigs alone will start at around 1.3bil to around 2.7bil for best performance. Oh, and btw, none of these ships is a CNR or any other navy issue faction boat.

On the capital side any carrier can tank one of these (going into buffer and dps’n its way out) with a net loss of around 300-400mil after insurance, but some missions will not let a capital through the gate and no super caps allowed.

So lets compare this to complex’s for instance, now I can’t compare to a 10/10 because I have never been, but I have done more then a few 8/10 and 9/10. They start at around 40-50mil an hour 80% isk, 20% faction drops (not counting officer) roughly the same number of ships (maybe a couple more) spread over say 4-7 rooms, dps ranges from about 500-1100 per room, few neut towers if any. They will be faction spec to spec rats of that area, so blood complex will be 90% of complex’s in amarr 0.0, so spec’ing defense is possible. They allow no capitals.

What sounds easier and more profitable to you?

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.06.20 06:37:00 - [718]
 

Edited by: Rip Minner on 20/06/2010 06:43:03
Edited by: Rip Minner on 20/06/2010 06:39:50
Originally by: floater666
This change is only good if they make risk/reward right after years of incomnpetence. It does no one favour if reward for lvl5 in low sec is so small that no one will play it.

Cut ****ing empire income half and double the low sec's already damn it. Do it with autobalancing like with the economy itself, its easy to do and the game would be just so much better. Years of ignorance attracted hello kitty online players and neglected PVP players. I myself cancelled 3 accounts 1,5 years ago as well since I saw this game becomming borring blobfest 0.0, camping PVP and mindless empire GRIND.

I am pretty sure that the original concept for EVE was that it is primarily a PVP game for gods sake.

POPULATE LOW SEC, and I AM NOT EVEN A PIRATE. Honestly only low sec has chance to offer quality, enjoyable PVP. Look arround it is completely EMPTY.



Your right. See CCP saw that going with pvp only was going to be finacel death of EVE. So they added PVE and advertis its a sand box you can do anything you wish.

Witch got alot of pve people to give eve a try. Alot liked it but when they go to the short end of the PVE content that dont have pvp taged to it they left. Not all did more then a few stayed becouse they found they like sci-fi over fantasy and most mmo's are fantasy. So what do you do if you like a game that there is no pve = of?

Easy you blobb the pvp basters to death. That makes pvp as unenjoyable to the pvp players as the pve players that are forced into pvping to get to new pve content. Its a no win for everyone. But hay just go with CCP's thinking of HTFU.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.06.20 06:51:00 - [719]
 

Originally by: UFO12
Seems we are already too boring cutomers so CCP try everything posible to kick out as much of us as possible.
What are stupied excuse to say 3 years old "bug" is "fixed" already.I am impresed whith CCP support and "wise" developers decisions. CCP how much of your team play that game as regular player and if , how much time spend for playing per week???



Man you must be new. CCP's team do's play. But there all pvp'ers. And I guess they need more targets in low sec too?

Tar Getdummy
Posted - 2010.06.20 07:10:00 - [720]
 

Well, anyone who has actually done l5 in game conditions (which is obviously none of the developers), will have a hard laugh at the statements here.

Just to entertain you more: here the real back story behind this fix ;)


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