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Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2010.06.16 08:23:00 - [661]
 

Originally by: Libin Herobi


People in here are only trying to protect their investment (game time and/or subscription money).
You see it's very reasonable to do that. Only an idiot would silently accept a change that puts him in a worse situation.

And this attempt is not futile at all:
You might want to look at the "deep-safe-nerf" or the "capital threadnaught" from dominion or the return of the NPC corp descriptions. People telling what they like or don't like are not always getting exactly what they want, but they do make a difference or do you think CCP will modify level 1-4 mission distribution because everyone "just adapted"?!

CCP basically raised the requirements to use certain content.
As some people already pointed out: you just don't fly into lowsec to run a level 5 mission after that change.
You either need to be (relatively) confident that the system is clean and/or that you can defend yourself/the mission if it becomes necessary.
That is quite a bit more than missioning in highsec, no?
It doesn't make sense to just "shrug that off" unless you are completely ignorant about things like efficiency

Just try to think about raising the requirements for some other content:
How about "We believe Command Ships should require Fleet Command IV. After all a Command Ship is there for a commander and a commander is nothing without a fleet, so you need Fleet Command for this. kthxbai"

People who already have Fleet Command IV will tend to say "great, that makes sense"
People who are close to Fleet Command IV will tend to say "just suck it up, train the damn skill and be done with it"
People who are quite far from Fleet Command IV but were able to fly it will tend to say: F*CK YOU, you ruined months of training"
People who were training to fly a Command Ship will tend to say "Great that ship is just not worth training all this crap. Now I need to find another goal, maybe I should quit altogether"
People who never cared about Command Ships will tend to say "Just stop whining, m'kay?!"

That's pretty much what we're seeing here, no?


Also:
take your "it's only for the better" attitude and apply it to your family, spouse or whomever likes it.


Their.. investment? Investment in.. time? Fun? This is a game.. the only thing people really should be concerned about paying for is having Fun. Remember.. CCP owns all your mods, ships, character, isk. The only return is the amount of fun one has. Just maybe if they take my words, they'll find more fun.

This is afterall.. an MMO. There are literally thousands upon thousands of single player games for people to indulge in that don't require a collective group of people. Where the one and single thought controls the game within its boundries. The thing about MMOs is there is many, many people. With many different views. Shouldn't be shocking when a change doesn't go the way of some people.. and they should know this.

Changes in the game have positively and negatively effected me, just like anyone else. But I understand there are other people involved in this game.. and not just me. They pay, just as I do. No ones voice is more important than another in that reguard. People might feel more at ease if they step back and think like that. Makes the game, life in general.. much easier to bare. Allows you to be open to other people's ideas.. and that alone can change a person for the better.

And it all boils down to this.. the only thing a person has left when they leave this game.. is the memories. What will you remember? How will you be remembered?

Again.. with that, my point stands. Be pathetic.. or make something out of your name. A legacy shared with friends out weighs any amount of ingame money a person can make.

And I'll take my 'its better for game/people' attitude where ever I want to.


Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.06.16 08:36:00 - [662]
 

Quote:
After being quite sad about this decision, I think CCP might have a better reason than actually stated. lvl5's in highsec makes earning ISK a little too easy and will get more and more people into paying for their accounts and alts with PLEX instead of a monthly subscription fee. The more skilled carebears get into soloing lvl5's, the less people will actually pay real money for their accounts, which is a liability for CCP. But there are different solutions, and probably supply and demand would have solved this issue itself with PLEX becoming more and more expensive. Also a simple check to see if the mission is in highsec (and with that lowering the payout in isk and LP considerably) would've been an option.


Someone doesn't understand how PLEX works.

Hint: No matter how many people pay for their accounts in PLEX, CCP gets the same amount of money.

Tito Sajic
Secret Squirrel Readiness Group
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2010.06.16 08:40:00 - [663]
 

Edited by: Tito Sajic on 16/06/2010 08:40:40
Originally by: Jazz Tangle
After being quite sad about this decision, I think CCP might have a better reason than actually stated. lvl5's in highsec makes earning ISK a little too easy and will get more and more people into paying for their accounts and alts with PLEX instead of a monthly subscription fee. The more skilled carebears get into soloing lvl5's, the less people will actually pay real money for their accounts, which is a liability for CCP. But there are different solutions, and probably supply and demand would have solved this issue itself with PLEX becoming more and more expensive. Also a simple check to see if the mission is in highsec (and with that lowering the payout in isk and LP considerably) would've been an option.

I really liked doing lvl5 missions in highsec with friends as lvl4's are simply easy to solo at some point and I have to be honest, I'm not going to do lvl5's in low sec as I go to low and nullsec to do pvp, not missioning.

As for addressing the lvl 1-4 issue, I'm getting tired of declining missions and waiting for 4 hours everytime which has a direct result that I'm not playing as fanatically as before, exploration sites don't spawn enough to keep me busy and entertained. I hope this is getting fixed soon.



Gaahh! Another one that doesn't understand how PLEXs work!

Player Joe Smoe is short on IKS but has lots of real money, so player Joe Smoe will pay CCP real moey for a PLEX, Joe Smoe will then take that PLEX and sell it by contract for ISK. Player Billy Bob runs missions and has lots of ISK, but is short on real money so he buys the PLEX from player Joe Smoe. Either way, CCP gets their monthly subscription fee regardless if it's paid for by PLEX or not.

Jazz Tangle
Posted - 2010.06.16 08:49:00 - [664]
 

Edited by: Jazz Tangle on 16/06/2010 08:52:24
Edited by: Jazz Tangle on 16/06/2010 08:50:15
Originally by: Kahega Amielden

Someone doesn't understand how PLEX works.

Hint: No matter how many people pay for their accounts in PLEX, CCP gets the same amount of money.


Correct me if I'm wrong but in my opinion it's not a good thing when a large group of your players plays for free while a select group of people buy ISK selling PLEX. Being dependant on a group of people buying time-codes is a lot less stable than all of the chars paying a subscription fee. In my opinion PLEX was introduced to have an answer to illegal ISK trading...

jordus trader
Posted - 2010.06.16 09:01:00 - [665]
 

Originally by: Illectroculus Defined
Glad to hear CCP taking the 'Fix Bugs' threads to heart, and moreover doing the 'Difficult and Unpopular' ones first.


You're ****ing kidding, right? I hope that is sarcasm there, because if not it's certainly the most asinine and suck-up thing i've seen posted on these forums. I've quit both my eve accounts at least once due to CCP failing to provide the correct/sufficient information and introducing sudden/ill thought out changes rendering my entire specilization and training tree useless for what i had planned to use it for. Besides there are plenty of real issues CCP could be spending what little time they devote to maintaining this game on which have also been around for years e.g. not fixing the ****ing descriptions for things we all read for information, e.g. it STILL says that hail ammo increases your tracking when in fact it cuts it in half. It is never any fun to have the specific objective/goal you've been working towards suddenly ripped from under your feet or find out it never would have been possible because you were given false/incomplete information. It's crap like this combined with CCP's ongoing neglect of fundamental game mechanics that causes players to leave after investing a considerable amount of time and energy, i don't run lvl 5's or even have any interest in doing so but i can see instantly that lowsec lvl 5's are now completely useless unless you are trying to bait a pirate fleet which i doubt any will do.

Hired Assasin
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.06.16 09:17:00 - [666]
 

OMG seriously stop crying!

you guys are like 10 year olds that need mummy(CCP) to hold your hand and make sure your safe.

grow a pair and actualy do something that isnt noobing around in empire space

ohhhh these missions are so easy we only do lvl 5's because they are the only challenge,

WELL GO CAREBEAR IN 0.0 WITH DED PLEX'S THEY ARE LIKE 4X HARDER THEN LVL 5's

and yes caps lock is cruise control for awsome

floater666
Posted - 2010.06.16 09:28:00 - [667]
 

This change is only good if they make risk/reward right after years of incomnpetence. It does no one favour if reward for lvl5 in low sec is so small that no one will play it.

Cut ****ing empire income half and double the low sec's already damn it. Do it with autobalancing like with the economy itself, its easy to do and the game would be just so much better. Years of ignorance attracted hello kitty online players and neglected PVP players. I myself cancelled 3 accounts 1,5 years ago as well since I saw this game becomming borring blobfest 0.0, camping PVP and mindless empire GRIND.

I am pretty sure that the original concept for EVE was that it is primarily a PVP game for gods sake.

POPULATE LOW SEC, and I AM NOT EVEN A PIRATE. Honestly only low sec has chance to offer quality, enjoyable PVP. Look arround it is completely EMPTY.

Death Stab
Posted - 2010.06.16 09:49:00 - [668]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden


Someone doesn't understand how PLEX works.

Hint: No matter how many people pay for their accounts in PLEX, CCP gets the same amount of money.


Wrong, you and Tito Sajic. Why?

Most of the people I know who do (sorry, did) lvl 5 have a few accounts - chars for rr support, delegating drones etc. They could pay for these chars because of the income from lvl 5.
Now these chars are useless so there is no need to buy plexes for them. That means that demand for Plex, GTC or even paid subscription is lower, isn't it?
CCP loose money.
Less people buying plex means that plex ISK price is going down (demand<supply).
(BTW - Check Plex prices)
Lower ISK plex price means that there is less people willing to invest (constant amount of) real money to get less ISK. Less people buy GTC.
CCP again loose money
And the last thing - because now its almost impossible to do lvl 5 missions by single player (and even small corps) without being easily ganked many carebear players will loose the ultimate goal - to be able to do lvl 5 one day. Inexperienced player can do lvl 4 in a few weeks. After few months CCP might loose a customer that would otherwise stay and maybe one day move to 0.0.
CCP once again loose money

BTW:

The funny thing that all so-called pirates cannot understand that less ISK from missions means less fun for them because ships and modules are not free. Casual hi-sec player usually don't risk something in low-sec that couldn't be 'easily' replaced.

Switch your brains on - the easier for a player to fund PvP through PvE the more PvP and the more fun for the pirates/pvp people. Unless you want to fight velators and other rookie ships.




Hired Assasin
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.06.16 10:10:00 - [669]
 

Edited by: Hired Assasin on 16/06/2010 10:12:29

...... you do relise how many Plex's were in supply when they were only like 130m right? easly the same amount as it is now.....................

and ccp love it due to people buying many GTC and trying to sell them for isk, so people buy GTC, convert them to PLEX's or keep them as a GTC and the big amount of PLEX's stock pile up making CCP in profit due to all those unused timecards and as time goes by more and more timecards/plex's are sitting there unused while ccp has already been payed for it

makrish1
Posted - 2010.06.16 11:20:00 - [670]
 

Originally by: Hired Assasin
Edited by: Hired Assasin on 16/06/2010 10:12:29

...... you do relise how many Plex's were in supply when they were only like 130m right? easly the same amount as it is now.....................

and ccp love it due to people buying many GTC and trying to sell them for isk, so people buy GTC, convert them to PLEX's or keep them as a GTC and the big amount of PLEX's stock pile up making CCP in profit due to all those unused timecards and as time goes by more and more timecards/plex's are sitting there unused while ccp has already been payed for it


You're an idiot who doesn't understand supply OR demand. If supply > demand, then the price falls until supply = demand. Demand falls when prices fall. Say you want a mars bar. However, they're 50 pence. You say screw that, and go buy a twix, which is only 40p. But if a mars bar falls to 30p, you're going to be happy and buy the mars bar. Simple economics.

If there's an excess of supply, people will not keep buying them.. If you have 10 plex on the market, you're not going buy another 10 and put them on the market aswell. No, you're going to wait until those 10 are sold, are you not?

Hired Assasin
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.06.16 11:29:00 - [671]
 

Edited by: Hired Assasin on 16/06/2010 11:31:29
were you even playing eve when PLEX's were only 140m? they still had **** ton in stock and they prob would still even if prices never changed

and to add who cares what price a candy/bar cost your probly gonna buy the one you like the most even if it costs more

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.16 11:30:00 - [672]
 

Quote:

Every other successful MMO out their caters for the PVE market



EvE is the most succesful MMO in its sector, it did not become the most succesful because of how well PvE was made (although improving it wouldn't hurt).

I'd despise if CCP also did the stupid assumption that more subs = more success.

How do you meter success? By the mere dollar? The dollar YOU don't even make but a company somewhere in Iceland does?
Or should we meter fore-planning, gameplay and similar?
In that case, even some mammoth like WoW stopped being a succesful game at about 6-7M subs and degraded in an awesome but soul-less marketing campaign now that got 9-10M.

I'd really hate and quit a market-god driven game like that and hope CCP will stick to their *novel* approach, even if it won't quickly bring in the millions.


Quote:

Dedicated arenas in h-sec where people can risk their ships and rigs



No way, arenas remove part of the already scarce small scale "outdoor" PvP.


Quote:

Only an idiot would silently accept a change that puts him in a worse situation.



No, someone thinking beyond the tip of his nose could also be in the number.
For me it's expecially easy, since I did not put all my eggs in one basket - played MMOs for too long not to know that "too good to be true" features get nerfed sooner or later.


Quote:

It doesn't make sense to just "shrug that off" unless you are completely ignorant about things like efficiency



Farmer mindset. Farmers infect the whole gaming industry, they should be obliterated, all they bring is money and excessive faucets.
I am just glad that EvE for now still prizes brain usage over spending more hours over menial tasks.


Quote:

It's actually fairly easy to be podded in small gangs, a small moment of shock or hesitation, or a misclick when opening the menu... I've in fact been podded in highsec, in a wardec before. Tried to warp off as soon as my ship popped, but still got scrammed and podded.



You should die more Twisted Evil.
When I was just born in EvE I joined Dark Rising where the first thing they teached was that no one is worthless.
So I jumped on a Rifter (could not even fit tank or anything better than 150mm AC) with 1 WEB and 1 scram and went to lose an unbearable amount of them while tackling blobs at OMS, Tama and so on.
Let's say that practice at being popped teached how to GTFO with alive pod even with lag.
More people should train like that, there's too many whose first low sec experience is made with +4 implants. Learning becomes nasty fast.


Quote:

If you haven't seen any specialised missioning corps, I suggest you join recruitment channel.



I found random corps like that tend to be short lived and low quality.
I prefer to stick with proper corps like the one in my sig tbh. And yes, they were big on PvE till I have been there and we took what we wanted, in any sec.


Quote:

I'm getting tired of declining missions and waiting for 4 hours everytime which has a direct result that I'm not playing as fanatically as before, exploration sites don't spawn enough to keep me busy and entertained. I hope this is getting fixed soon.



I click another L4 agent 2 systems away, this usually fixes the cooldown for me.


Quote:

Again.. with that, my point stands. Be pathetic.. or make something out of your name. A legacy shared with friends out weighs any amount of ingame money a person can make.



I love your sentence, it's exactly why I expressed some not exactly politically correct statements about farmers.
Will anyone fondly recall the time when he started a macro to grind veldspar?


Quote:

Most of the people I know who do (sorry, did) lvl 5 have a few accounts - chars for rr support, delegating drones etc. They could pay for these chars because of the income from lvl 5.



I can pay PLEX for 8 accounts and I just do L4s, figures Shocked.

Isaak Faide
Posted - 2010.06.16 11:33:00 - [673]
 

Edited by: Isaak Faide on 16/06/2010 11:56:53
Edited by: Isaak Faide on 16/06/2010 11:54:33
Hello, My name is Isaak Faide and I am a carebear
*group of carebears mumble 'hello Isaak Faide'......

Now that I have gotten my Carebears Anonymous meeting out of the way (wait, you saw my name...argggghhh!!, I feel so exposed.)

OK, I admit it, I am a carebear. I only fight pvp when I am forced to do so (via war decs, low-sec battles, etc.). I much rather stay in the cushy world of hi-sec and mission run until my eyes bleed.

But does that mean I will stay there forever? Nope.

As a matter of fact, I am starting to feel the pull and allure of low sec and null sec. I have spent the bulk of my 2 accounts' lives in hi sec doing hi-sec carebear stuff. I need to eventualy evolve and go into low and null sec and experience the joys and sorrows of pvp life.

However, I used to do an occasional hi-sec lvl 5 mission in Gallente space. The lp rewards were great, but everything else I could easily get in a solo lvl 4. Having lvl 5 missions occasionally happen in hi-sec space is ok in my mind, but alas, we are not going to see that happen.

I have noticed in my time running to the low sec system looking for a hi-sec lvl 5 mission was the constant gate camping by low-sec'ers attempting to catch hi-sec carebears trying to either acquire or do a lvl 5 mission. Most lvl 5 hi-sec mission runners would send in a fast, hard to target ship into low sec, get the mission and get the hell out to hi sec to complete said mission. When the mission was finished, the same run into low sec would be done (preferably just after dt, when gate camping is relatively low). That was the uber carebear fashion of running those missions (in my experience).


However, supply and demand will fall off.

That means that as carebear lvl 5 mission runners stop doing the hi-sec lvl 5 missions available, the numbers of carebears trying to run the blocade to even get the lvl 5 missions will also drop. That means that perpetual gate camping by low-sec'ers in key systems for lv 5 missions will also go out of vogue. Lvl 5 missions will be the domain of low sec players and the occaisional suicidal carebear hi-sec player (an oxymoron - suicidal carebear).

The problem with low-sec lvl 5 missions is not the doing, but the completing. If, for some chance (and the chance is extremely high), you cannot finish your mission because the area is being constantly scanned for mission runners so they can be ganked, then the loss of npc corp and/or faction standing will be too much of a risk. I don't mind gettig killed...I do mind losing standing.

Not completing lvl 5 missions can seriously kill your standings.

But does that mean that I am lamenting the demise of hi-sec lvl 5's? - no not really. As I said, I am starting to evolve with eve. I love mission running and wh sleeper hunting, but now I am starting to crave more. My alt recently went through a hi-sec war, and I loved the feel of adrenaline when in pvp combat.

Does that mean that every carebear will evolve? I don't think so. Whether you look at this game as an MMO, or a glorified space combat sim (for the ardent mission runners), some people will always stick to either one way of playing or another.

I am ok with the 'fix'. Lvl 5 missions were good, but not necessary in my life, and in the end, it may kick start my migration into low and nul sec space.

This may finally get me out of mommy's house (aka hi-sec empire space), and compel me to start living on my own (aka the whole of eve 'verse - be it low, null, wh or hi sec space).

Cheers,
Faide

Morar Santee
Posted - 2010.06.16 12:13:00 - [674]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

I can pay PLEX for 8 accounts and I just do L4s, figures.


So you run enough level 4s to buy PLEXes for 8 accounts, and then have the nerve to say **** like:

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

Farmer mindset. Farmers infect the whole gaming industry, they should be obliterated, all they bring is money and excessive faucets.
I am just glad that EvE for now still prizes brain usage over spending more hours over menial tasks.


The worst thing about it is not that you are such a hypocritical *****, the worst part is: With all probability, you honestly think people will buy into it.

Let's spell it out: Why is oh-so-wise Vaerah Vahrokha happy about this change?

'Cause now her mindless level 4 farming was boosted through the back door, as the ISK worth of LP rewards will increase.
Takes a ****load of brain to do that, too, I'm sure. "Brain usage over spending more hours over menial tasks" my ass. And before you start replying things like "oh but I have other accounts and do other stuff on them!!11!1oneeleven!" while using incomplete quotes - you clearly stated you could sustain 8 PLEXes from level 4s. One way or the other, you are full of **** to the brim of your hypocritical hat.

You are the person with a list of changes to make your playstyle easier. You are the person who is grinding and farming more than anyone in this thread. You are a problem for EVE's economy, because running level 4s adds 2x more ISK/hour to the ISK faucet than running level 5s. (Yes, level 5 rewards comes from the LP - LP store is actually an ISK drain to boot.)
Guess what: You are the ****ing problem you keep whining about!

That other people were smart enough to make ISK without farming like a tool must've been a real shock for you, when you found out. Because those people were playing smart. Smart enough that you feel obliged to come here crying and whining about how it is unfair and not right and oh-so-mean.

Go back to level 4 farming, you super leet pro, and leave people who want to have more viable options in PvE the **** alone.

makrish1
Posted - 2010.06.16 12:50:00 - [675]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

It's actually fairly easy to be podded in small gangs, a small moment of shock or hesitation, or a misclick when opening the menu... I've in fact been podded in highsec, in a wardec before. Tried to warp off as soon as my ship popped, but still got scrammed and podded.



You should die more Twisted Evil.
When I was just born in EvE I joined Dark Rising where the first thing they teached was that no one is worthless.
So I jumped on a Rifter (could not even fit tank or anything better than 150mm AC) with 1 WEB and 1 scram and went to lose an unbearable amount of them while tackling blobs at OMS, Tama and so on.
Let's say that practice at being popped teached how to GTFO with alive pod even with lag.
More people should train like that, there's too many whose first low sec experience is made with +4 implants. Learning becomes nasty fast.


Quote:

If you haven't seen any specialised missioning corps, I suggest you join recruitment channel.



I found random corps like that tend to be short lived and low quality.
I prefer to stick with proper corps like the one in my sig tbh. And yes, they were big on PvE till I have been there and we took what we wanted, in any sec.



I quite agree, I should die more, I haven't had enough of it yet. I've been meaning to get into PvP but I'm still training the relevant skills, just so I can minimise the chance of me dying.

The missioning corps I've been in have been fairly decent, but I suppose that's because we were all quite sociable and friendly.

Originally by: Hired Assasin
Quote:

Edited by: Hired Assasin on 16/06/2010 11:31:29
were you even playing eve when PLEX's were only 140m? they still had **** ton in stock and they prob would still even if prices never changed

and to add who cares what price a candy/bar cost your probly gonna buy the one you like the most even if it costs more



They were the only legit way to buy isk with real money. Demand for plex soared because people heard you can pay for EVE by playing EVE. Now that the demand will go down, people will look at the past and think 'oh, they were 300mil before, we'll wait for the price to go back up before buying again'.

Me and all my friends all grumbled at the price of a freddo going up from 10p to 15p. Unlike you, we'd prefer to have more for our money, and if that converts into buying a lesser substitute, then so be it. It's like a someone buying a frigate instead of an inty because, despite the inty doing the job better, the frigate is cheaper.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.16 14:16:00 - [676]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 16/06/2010 14:20:38
Quote:

The worst thing about it is not that you are such a hypocritical *****, the worst part is: With all probability, you honestly think people will buy into it



Keep raging, bro, it warms me up. It's all recorded in the MD forum and EvE-Search.
I had to pay back people within agreed hard time frames, I could not make less than that money even if I wanted.

Also

"I can pay PLEX for 8 accounts" <> "I am RIGHT NOW grinding to pay PLEX for 8 accounts".

I can when I want to or need to. Otherwise I just do some PI and lazy L4 with no set income.


Quote:

clearly stated you could sustain 8 PLEXes from level 4s.



Of course I can sustain 8 accounts, does not mean I have the actual 8 accounts, I can just make the equivalent money of and buy BPOs for my collection.


Quote:

You are a problem for EVE's economy, because running level 4s adds 2x more ISK/hour to the ISK faucet than running level 5s. (Yes, level 5 rewards comes from the LP - LP store is actually an ISK drain to boot.)



For what I care they can nerf L4 to yield 1M per hour *today*.
Unlike you and the other sea of whingers, I just switch to the next money avenue and don't look back.


Edit: I don't know English well enough to distinguish "can" vs "could" subtleties, so for me can = I can if / when I want.

oneway89
Posted - 2010.06.16 19:23:00 - [677]
 

Originally by: makrish1
Originally by: Hired Assasin
Edited by: Hired Assasin on 16/06/2010 10:12:29

...... you do relise how many Plex's were in supply when they were only like 130m right? easly the same amount as it is now.....................

and ccp love it due to people buying many GTC and trying to sell them for isk, so people buy GTC, convert them to PLEX's or keep them as a GTC and the big amount of PLEX's stock pile up making CCP in profit due to all those unused timecards and as time goes by more and more timecards/plex's are sitting there unused while ccp has already been payed for it


You're an idiot who doesn't understand supply OR demand. If supply > demand, then the price falls until supply = demand. Demand falls when prices fall. Say you want a mars bar. However, they're 50 pence. You say screw that, and go buy a twix, which is only 40p. But if a mars bar falls to 30p, you're going to be happy and buy the mars bar. Simple economics.

If there's an excess of supply, people will not keep buying them.. If you have 10 plex on the market, you're not going buy another 10 and put them on the market aswell. No, you're going to wait until those 10 are sold, are you not?


Originally by: Hired Assasin
Edited by: Hired Assasin on 16/06/2010 11:31:29
were you even playing eve when PLEX's were only 140m? they still had **** ton in stock and they prob would still even if prices never changed

and to add who cares what price a candy/bar cost your probly gonna buy the one you like the most even if it costs more


Your both right and actually donít contradict each other, which makes it puzzling why your arguing. What you have to consider is how much $$ it takes to make your candy bar, in this case plexs. Sure you say zero $$, but ccp can always be undercut when it comes to the trade being in isk. If you could sell a plex on market for 100mil but for the same $15 get 300mil off an isk vendor the system collapses very fast. The only way around that is to remove isk or any other game commodity for the equation, which basically means cash store, just gmín up a bunch of isk for the $$.

Ccp as well makes a lot of $$ off plexs, for one there basically 5% more $$ then a normal subscription fee, and because its real cash there is such a thing as inflation here, so say 4-5% per year. So, if you donít sell your plex for around 3 months ccp would make an extra 1-1.2% on top of the 5% for the same service rendered. Aswell, since they have an unlimited negative-overhead with no contracted of an expectant service on plexs in the system, it adds up to big $$. If ccp decided to just close eve down tomorrow and you had 10 plexs on the market, there isnít a price of paper that says they have to give your $150 back. Lol they can basicaly spend it before the service its suppose to provide has been rendered. So for ccp itís a net gain with zero risk. I wouldnít be surprised if a lot of the dust $$ is from plex overhead.

Raven Thard
Posted - 2010.06.16 19:54:00 - [678]
 

Ha this is funny as hell been playin for 2 years almost never knew about highsec l5s i do however enjoy the risk and thirll of lowsec l5s this fix i say is worthless. Give me more lowsec l5 agents lolEmbarassed

Libin Herobi
Posted - 2010.06.16 20:24:00 - [679]
 

Originally by: Umega

...



How can you talk about things like "legacy", being "involved", "making something out of your name" and not understand a simple concept like "investment"

And they don't invest IN time, they invest in their character WITH time.
All those things you mentioned cannot happen over night.
But when someone points you to this fact you don't understand it? Shocked

Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudflation.
That might help you understand why suddenly a lot of players feel some of their equipment/skills is no longer needed and thus wasted. Did you look at the prices of pithum shield resist amplifiers lately?

And yes getting enough ISK to buy a deadspace mod is an investment.
For some people it takes a couple of days, some can make it in a couple of hours and other might only need one transaction with their credit card. But no matter how you look at it, it's an investment and that's what keeps people playing.

Remember that big "one persistent universe" thing?
It has "investment" written all over it.

Eleionomae
Posted - 2010.06.16 22:37:00 - [680]
 

Is this thread going a bit off topic? I thought that it was about level 5 missions.
I think the isk faucet argument for moving high level is not really relevant, the guy with a carrier alt making 100 million isk an hour would not be running missions in high sec. To be honest using a carrier to do this seems like a very good way of getting the 20 billion isk you need for a super carrier.
Basically low sec mission running is avoided by many because of griefers warping into the mission area and ganking someone who is already dealing with npc dps. It is unbalanced pvp. Balancing is important in games like this as everyone knows and it is the reason ships get nerfed.
How about getting rid of this imbalance. How about improved sleeper type npc ai so that if someone warps into the mission area they also get targeted ( and made primary target ) by the npc ships.
This would make things more interesting and more of a challenge for the griefers, they would have to think a little about how they fit their ships so they have tank as well as gank and it will amuse the mission runner to see the would be griefer blown up by the npc ships.
It's a win win situation.

Derelicht
Posted - 2010.06.16 23:00:00 - [681]
 

Originally by: Raven Thard
.


I see what you did there; your finger slipped and hit the period.

Chasten Ruin
Posted - 2010.06.17 02:49:00 - [682]
 

Originally by: Chasten Ruin
Read the numbers, most of the people live in Empire.

Originally by: Kerfira
Yes, which is EXACTLY the problem! They live in absolute safety, creates loads of game resources, and doesn't cause any of them to disappear again.


Cmon Mr. Super Elite Eve player-with-all-the-snarky-answers, you should know more than anyone that there is NO SAFE PLACE in EvE.

Empire is the place where guys like you join NPC corps so they can pop defenseless miners and call it pvp.

Originally by: Chasten Ruin
As far as risk vs reward, there is still tons of risk doing level 5's in High Sec.

Originally by: Kerfira
Nope, there isn't! You don't lose ships unless you're incredibly stupid!


Make a decision here, if this is the best PvE content, that would imply theres some challenge which means deaths take place. If only the incredibly stupid died, why would you care what happened to Level 5s since they appear to be so easy for you?

Fact is, you had to heavily invest in being able to do these missions, by first grinding standings for corps to an obscenely high level, then by getting a mission ship and the necessary skills in place to actually tank the mission, and then put it all on the line doing the mission. People who were able to do these missions invested heavily in fielding an appropriate ship, and most likely a clone, as well as the skills. The reason so few actually did them was because the requirements to do them were so high in the first place. Billions of ISK and months of time, and in many cases a whole new clone with specific implants to make soloing them viable.

Originally by: Chasten Ruin
Whats scary is the ninja looter that appears, scans your ship and tries to get you shoot at him by stealing your mission objective loot and then in flies in his gank fleet to take out your mission boat.

Originally by: Kerfira
99 out of 100 people don't shoot back and is perfectly safe. The 1 out of 100 is incredibly stupid.


Originally by: Kerfira
FYI, his 'gank fleet' can't shoot you unless you shoot them.


FYI, if he has a real gank fleet that wants you dead because of what you have equipped, they dont care if you shoot first because theyll get paid back if they get blown by Concord. They are after the goods. They dont care at that point.

Originally by: Chasten Ruin
And Level 5s were not a cash cow. They were not "ISK printing machines".

Originally by: Kerfira
Sorry, but 100-150m per hour IS a cash cow AND an ISK-printing machine...


100m-150m an hour? Seriously? I must have been doing the wrong Level 5s because I made about 20m in bounties per mission solo and it took a little more than an hour to do each one. Split that with more fleet members and its even less. Now if you had 8 accounts soloing missions then i can see 100m+. Theres also the fact that very rarely did the L5 agents send you to high sec, and even more rare if it was a mission that didnt involve faction killing (which most mission runners decline to keep standings up).

You could not farm Level 5s like you can Level 4. Comparing ISK/hour on L4's vs. L5's, you make LESS ISK/hour on Level 5s. I guess youd know that though. Before the "fix" youd get 1-2 missions that didnt involved killing factions that were located in high sec a day...on a good day. So it really wasnt an isk printing machine in the slightest and you couldnt grind them like you would other agents.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2010.06.17 07:57:00 - [683]
 

Originally by: Chasten Ruin
Cmon Mr. Super Elite Eve player-with-all-the-snarky-answers, you should know more than anyone that there is NO SAFE PLACE in EvE.

Empire is the place where guys like you join NPC corps so they can pop defenseless miners and call it pvp.

We're not talking mining, but mission running.
For all intents and purpose, unless a mission runner does something stupid (which includes running missions in the big hubs), he's completely safe in high-sec.
Originally by: Chasten Ruin
Make a decision here, if this is the best PvE content, that would imply theres some challenge which means deaths take place. If only the incredibly stupid died, why would you care what happened to Level 5s since they appear to be so easy for you?

'Best' as in 'Best income'. Once you've read 'EVE Survival', there's not much more challenge in L5's than in L4's.

I care because of this... I like the game, and want it to prosper. It can't if the good stuff is also available to people who're safe.
Contrary to most people in this thread, I don't mind losing precious internet spaceships, nor do I solely concern myself with the content of my internet space money wallet.

The fundamental nature of EVE requires the top-level content to be in dangerous areas, or the game will not function.
Originally by: Chasten Ruin
FYI, if he has a real gank fleet that wants you dead because of what you have equipped, they dont care if you shoot first because theyll get paid back if they get blown by Concord. They are after the goods. They dont care at that point.

What you're talking about is a suicide fleet, not a gank fleet. If he's leading a suicide fleet, he doesn't need to get you to shoot at him *rolls eyes*
Originally by: Chasten Ruin
100m-150m an hour? Seriously? I must have been doing the wrong Level 5s because I made about 20m in bounties per mission solo and it took a little more than an hour to do each one.

You're doing it totally wrong then... Plus you need to add the tag value and the LP value.
Originally by: Chasten Ruin
Theres also the fact that very rarely did the L5 agents send you to high sec, and even more rare if it was a mission that didnt involve faction killing (which most mission runners decline to keep standings up).

Most L5 runners have decided not to keep their standings for this reason. Doing otherwise means you can't run them effectively.
Originally by: Chasten Ruin
Before the "fix" youd get 1-2 missions that didnt involved killing factions that were located in high sec a day...on a good day. So it really wasnt an isk printing machine in the slightest and you couldnt grind them like you would other agents.

You're doing that wrong too... Get standings for all you alts, have them get missions too. That's what most people who've farmed high-sec L5's do, and you can farm them all day long that way.

Stop thinking about your own little self and start thinking about how this game functions. Once he's managed that even a modestly mentally challenged person should be able to realise that the EVE economy depends on stuff blowing up, and that too many people not getting blown up isn't good for the game.

Spesiel Forces
Posted - 2010.06.17 12:31:00 - [684]
 

Its all about money!

When you introduce NPC tax - you drian Isk of the players and ISK is money.
When you remove high sec lvl 5's you drain ISk of the players and ISK is money.
When you ask lvl 4 missioners to run 2-3 jumps for missions it drains ISK of the players and ISK is money.
When you downgrade the loot from rats you drain ISk of the players and ISK is money.
When you DONT correct serious flaws like Big fllet fight lag, its because it doesnt make CCP any money.
Please pay attention dear players to what CCP is doing and their reasons to do it. NEVER think they do anything for you as players. They have one reason only, to get as much money from players as possible.

Isaak Faide
Posted - 2010.06.17 13:27:00 - [685]
 

Good points Spiesiel.

I suspect the nerfing of lvl 5s (yes, I know it was an unintentional exploit that you could get them in hi-sec) and the reduction of mission loot/salvage isk could be because of the PI.

My thought when they added PI is that if this becomes a money maker for some/most/all, we would soon get into the Monty Hall game of eve - where everyone has lots of isk, and there is no work/grind to get it.

Part of the motivation of eve is to make money so you can supply your eve lifestyle (i.e. pvp'ing, buying stuff, etc.).

So, if PI becomes a cash earner, are we then adding too much money into the system?

Sorry for getting off topic, but Spiesiel did bring up a valid, succinct point(s).

Bent Almskou
Posted - 2010.06.17 13:43:00 - [686]
 

Dont forget you can actually buy your gametime with ISK. Thats the real bummer for CCP, as the plexes are purchaceable at affiliates that get a kick back. again. Less dollars than when people has to buy directly at CCP.

Jazz Tangle
Posted - 2010.06.17 14:29:00 - [687]
 

Edited by: Jazz Tangle on 17/06/2010 15:10:34
Originally by: Spesiel Forces
Its all about money!

When you introduce NPC tax - you drian Isk of the players and ISK is money.
When you remove high sec lvl 5's you drain ISk of the players and ISK is money.
When you ask lvl 4 missioners to run 2-3 jumps for missions it drains ISK of the players and ISK is money.
When you downgrade the loot from rats you drain ISk of the players and ISK is money.
When you DONT correct serious flaws like Big fllet fight lag, its because it doesnt make CCP any money.
Please pay attention dear players to what CCP is doing and their reasons to do it. NEVER think they do anything for you as players. They have one reason only, to get as much money from players as possible.


Seriously dude, do you think running a MMO like Eve costs nothing? Do you think running a servercluster like Tranquility costs nothing? Do you think having multiple Offices with employees costs nothing? Do you think having a quality 20GBps connection costs nothing?

CCP is NOT a charity organization, but claiming they should be is just plain weird. Thinking they make as much as Blizzard is plain weird. I'm not saying CCP doesn't make any profit, but I think your statement that it's all about squeezing the money out of the players is a distorted view. If this is your view, then stop playing, and never play any online game again that actually asks for a subscription fee.

CCP Adida


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.17 15:57:00 - [688]
 

Removed trolling post that went around the profanity filter.

Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2010.06.17 17:10:00 - [689]
 

Edited by: Umega on 17/06/2010 17:10:25
Originally by: Libin Herobi
Originally by: Umega

...



How can you talk about things like "legacy", being "involved", "making something out of your name" and not understand a simple concept like "investment"

And they don't invest IN time, they invest in their character WITH time.
All those things you mentioned cannot happen over night.
But when someone points you to this fact you don't understand it? Shocked

Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudflation.
That might help you understand why suddenly a lot of players feel some of their equipment/skills is no longer needed and thus wasted. Did you look at the prices of pithum shield resist amplifiers lately?

And yes getting enough ISK to buy a deadspace mod is an investment.
For some people it takes a couple of days, some can make it in a couple of hours and other might only need one transaction with their credit card. But no matter how you look at it, it's an investment and that's what keeps people playing.

Remember that big "one persistent universe" thing?
It has "investment" written all over it.


Its all about Isk.

How much Isk with as little risk as possible. So they can buy things and never have to worry about losing them. Yeah.. I know, I get it, I got it.. a long time ago. I know why everyone is whining, its obvious. They want to play EVE without playing EVE.

I already knew that.. thanks for proving my original point about 15 pages ago tho. But we all knew that, haters and approvers of this change.. whether they admit it or not, its all about how much isk/hour while cutting down on risk.

/thread

Bent Almskou
Posted - 2010.06.17 18:07:00 - [690]
 

Edited by: Bent Almskou on 17/06/2010 18:11:25
What was supposed to be a Sandbox is getting tweeked all the time to suit CCP's needs.

If too many are in NPC corps, they install horrific tax under some excuse of NPC corps providing security when in fact concorde is providing excactly the same security for NPC corpies as for Player corp members. No, they want to tell people how to play. Get in Player corps. That is not sandbox.

PvP'er has to come to terms with the fact that not all are playing the game for PvP.

But what wonders is the fact that PVP'ers always look down on Non combat pilots.

What you SHOULD get crazy about is that CCP use even 1 second on changing something like LvL 5 missions as long as they havent figured out how to solve Big Fleet PVP battle Lagging.

PVP'ers need Non combat pilots as non combat pilots need PvP'ers.

Just dont call it sandbox wWhen CCP always meddles in.


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