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fshepherd
Posted - 2010.06.15 18:28:00 - [631]
 

Quick Questain, when is this being brought in? fed up of declining due to high sec for the mission :)

Libin Herobi
Posted - 2010.06.15 18:33:00 - [632]
 

Originally by: fshepherd
Quick Questain, when is this being brought in? fed up of declining due to high sec for the mission :)


0/10

fshepherd
Posted - 2010.06.15 18:55:00 - [633]
 

Originally by: Libin Herobi
Originally by: fshepherd
Quick Questain, when is this being brought in? fed up of declining due to high sec for the mission :)


0/10


im not joking i hoenstly want to know the answer to this. i ruun LV5's on my other account and he is -10 security so can only do it in lowsec, so when is the change :)

lv5 missionwhore
Posted - 2010.06.15 19:02:00 - [634]
 

Edited by: lv5 mission***** on 15/06/2010 19:02:24
Originally by: fshepherd
Quick Questain, when is this being brought in? fed up of declining due to high sec for the mission :)


/This

My main runs lv5 missions in lowsec all the time. Due to finding highsec more dangerous than lowsec i tend to refuse the missions there.

Right now I have 3 missions that I can't do because they are in highsec - this bugfix needs to be introduced ASAP.

shemaan
Posted - 2010.06.15 19:31:00 - [635]
 

Guys and gals. Seriously.

There are different lvl missions for a reason, the higher the lvl, the harder they are supposed to be.
So a lvl 5 mission should be the hardest there is and keeping them in hisec is pointless.
How many of the ppl complaining here are over 25 and remember the days when if you died in a game you went back to the start of a lvl and had to do the whole thing over again.
The missions are about challenging yourselves and are not there to be easy isk into your wallet, which they were.
Why dont you go try a DED 8 or 9 and see how hard they are compared to the ****-easy missions you get in hisec.
This game is about risk, why should you reap rewards when you spend your life all nice and cosy, protected by concord.
You dont like the pirates ? Get in a ship and go shoot them! They die as easily as any other pilot in the game.

Still scared of losing your precious ship ? Buy insurance! Bring friends!
Or better yet, petition CCP and ask them to give you a quick save and quick load.

Don't like my opinion ?
What are you going to do about it ?
Your too scared to enter losec..........

So grow a pair and make the jump.




Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Amarr
Posted - 2010.06.15 20:12:00 - [636]
 

Originally by: shemaan
Guys and gals. Seriously.

There are different lvl missions for a reason, the higher the lvl, the harder they are supposed to be.
So a lvl 5 mission should be the hardest there is and keeping them in hisec is pointless.
How many of the ppl complaining here are over 25 and remember the days when if you died in a game you went back to the start of a lvl and had to do the whole thing over again.
The missions are about challenging yourselves and are not there to be easy isk into your wallet, which they were.
Why dont you go try a DED 8 or 9 and see how hard they are compared to the ****-easy missions you get in hisec.
This game is about risk, why should you reap rewards when you spend your life all nice and cosy, protected by concord.
You dont like the pirates ? Get in a ship and go shoot them! They die as easily as any other pilot in the game.

Still scared of losing your precious ship ? Buy insurance! Bring friends!
Or better yet, petition CCP and ask them to give you a quick save and quick load.

Don't like my opinion ?
What are you going to do about it ?
Your too scared to enter losec..........

So grow a pair and make the jump.






Oh well, so you liked those old run-through-it-49-times games? That's easy to fix: next time you get podded in PVP, erase your character and start all over again. Show us what's like having a pair and risk something for a change. YARRRR!!

At least I am a honest carebear: I hate wasting my time rebuilding ships, and thus I hate losing ships. And yet you feel you're very macho just because you dare to lose ships each now and then... oh my. I'm thrilled, really. But I am far from impressed as all in all, neither PVE nor PVP risk anything serious (unless flying a T3).

And BTW, EVE is so hardcore, that it's currenlty moving towards getting console casuals into the EVE universe via a FPS... Laughing

Sandar Orontur
Posted - 2010.06.15 20:24:00 - [637]
 

Originally by: shemaan

So a lvl 5 mission should be the hardest there is and keeping them in hisec is pointless.



And just WHY is it pointless? Oh, it's hard, it HAS to be in low sec.... Laughing Why can't there be challenging PVE content in hi sec, i.e. for where most of pilots CHOOSE to live?

Originally by: shemaan

How many of the ppl complaining here are over 25 and remember the days when if you died in a game you went back to the start of a lvl and had to do the whole thing over again.



Read the posts, most solo L5 ships used are upwards of a bil isk. Oh, I died due to a small PVP gang in low sec in one of those? Why don't I just spend another bil or two and get a new one... hm.. just WHY? Twisted Evil
And again, read the posts, PVE fits for L5s are not good PVP fits and vice versa.

Originally by: shemaan

This game is about risk, why should you reap rewards when you spend your life all nice and cosy, protected by concord.



YES! I couldn't agree more! NO income to hi sec dwellers! Wink

RedLion
Caldari
State Constructions
Posted - 2010.06.15 20:32:00 - [638]
 

EVE really needs more 0.0 and low-sec entrances!

shemaan
Posted - 2010.06.15 20:38:00 - [639]
 






Oh well, so you liked those old run-through-it-49-times games? That's easy to fix: next time you get podded in PVP, erase your character and start all over again. Show us what's like having a pair and risk something for a change. YARRRR!!

At least I am a honest carebear: I hate wasting my time rebuilding ships, and thus I hate losing ships. And yet you feel you're very macho just because you dare to lose ships each now and then... oh my. I'm thrilled, really. But I am far from impressed as all in all, neither PVE nor PVP risk anything serious (unless flying a T3).

And BTW, EVE is so hardcore, that it's currenlty moving towards getting console casuals into the EVE universe via a FPS... Laughing



yeah, fair enough, i do a bit of everything depending on what my buddies are doing, we mine, we run missions(hi and lo sec),we pvp, we rat, WH's, you name it, we try to do a bit of everything.

but what im trying to say is, like ccp said, the lvl 5's are supposed to be the hardest missions, and moving them into losec makes em that bit harder, but not impossible.
as for feeling macho, thats not true, im here to make the most out of this game by trying to perfect what i do and not whine when ccp raises the bar just a little bit higher.
What i will do is keep coming back, again and again till i get it right and show them that i can beat whatever they throw at us.

you say that pvp nor pve risk anything ? well what do carebears risk in comparison ?
its all about perspective, i lost a rorqual to pirates not so long ago Crying or Very sad you think that wasnt a HUGE loss to me? And that was while helping my carebear friends Very Happy







oneway89
Posted - 2010.06.15 21:00:00 - [640]
 

Originally by: shemaan

but what im trying to say is, like ccp said, the lvl 5's are supposed to be the hardest missions, and moving them into losec makes em that bit harder, but not impossible.
as for feeling macho, thats not true, im here to make the most out of this game by trying to perfect what i do and not whine when ccp raises the bar just a little bit higher.
What i will do is keep coming back, again and again till i get it right and show them that i can beat whatever they throw at us.



Look at it this way, are you going to risk a 1-2 bil worth of ships and equipment, very potientaly going up against other players without a decent pvp setup, for a payout of say roughly 100-150mil spread over an entire gang taking about roughly 30mins average to payout. It is honestly probably a better potiental payout to throw that 1-2 bil at caps and just start kicking random pos's down, safer aswell. This isen't about harder, this isen't even about the isk alone, its the isk vs potiental lose. ccp now has changed this balance in such a way that its not worth the trouble, if they want someone to bother flying these missions they need a much large payout. As it is the same ships need to run lv 5 in low sec, in highsec would be equal spliting up and doing lv 4's.

Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2010.06.15 21:22:00 - [641]
 

Ha.. 22 pages of 'mommy, please keep holding my hand?'.

I'm sure CCP designed lvl 5 with the intention of people doing them with friends, in groups.. instead of one lone guy with a small collection of alts 'soloing' it. How does such a person afford a small collection of alts? Oh yeah.. cause lvl 5 missions pay that much to take care of several of plexes + plenty left over for toys.

Plenty of people got friends, in corps.. that did and continue to do 5s in low.

So whats the big deal?

Big deal is now the people did it solo with multi accounts are going to cry foul.. and make whatever excuse and bull**** story to convince CCP and people on here that is better to have them in highsec.

I completely disagree. Risk to reward.. how one person can easily pull off lvl 5s running a couple of accounts is pretty absurd. I know its tough for some of you to swallow having lived up in the penthouse for a couple of years to now actually have to defend what you believe is your given right to have access to by yourself.

Rather ridiculous.. how a lot of the top tier of a profession takes teamwork, a group of people to achieve it.. and then to have mission running ignore this principle?

Selfish. I see a lot of little kids running in here pulling the 'If you don't do it my way, I'm going to hold my breath and DIE! I'll do it! I'm going to cancel my sub! Just you wait! Here I go!' Right. If you truly enjoyed lvl 5s and it isn't about risk to reward ratio to mass isk.. then you'd have no problem finding a corp that has and continues to do lvl 5s in low.

That's all there is to it. Call it CCP trying to force people into low. I call it making mission running more in line with the other professions in the game.


DrCritter
Posted - 2010.06.15 22:59:00 - [642]
 

Edited by: DrCritter on 15/06/2010 23:55:37
I really don't get the big problem people have soloing missions with 2 paid accounts, what diff does it makes if its bought with a plex or not? Either way ccp is getting their 30 bucks a month, more actually since plex cost more. I guess people just have a problem with the plex system in general. I only run these missions to keep myself stocked up with t2 ships in 0.0 to pvp with. I don't mind loosing a 200 mil ship in pvp if that's what I'm there to do. I am no where near rich enough to pvp with a 2+ bil isk ship however, especially when it's fit for pve. In any event It's kind of stupid making money in low sec running L5 missions when you can make more doing exploration, wormholes, or fw missions all with much less risk, cheaper ships, and more isk rewards. I suppose I'll have to stick to that stuff now I just wish I could have all the skill points I wasted on skills for L5 back so I could direct them into more pvp type skills like BC5, maybe drones or guns or something since I no longer need the uber passive skills.
Also I might point out that the difficulty and rewards difference between level 4 and level 5 is right on par with level 3 to level 4, so if your going to add the low sec variable to the equation then the rewards really need to go up a bit. Just my 2 cents.
OH, and by the way, I don't NEED to do these with 2 accounts I can do them just fine solo, it just takes longer.

Dark reminance
Posted - 2010.06.16 00:22:00 - [643]
 

Thanks CCP for helping me find my BUTTERFLY EFFECT!

Thanks to your changes to “Sensitive Dependence on Initial Conditions”, your decision has led me (and I hope a significant amount of others) to expire from eve. I will most definitely SHARE this with my friends, and I goddaammnn hope (your laughable advertisement of hundreds of thousands..yea right) hear about it too.

I hope everyone who you have kicked in the nutts will resonate AND follow through with their expiration too. I whole heartedly hope this will shape the outcome of events in favor of your company’s DOOM.

If the universe was really ours, then, I wanted mine with hi sec level 5 missions.

In the mean time, I will treasure my Butterfly Effect with 15 more days of **** you posts. One account has expired already and WOW… I feel better about being in the right place at the right time already. I look forward to touching the lives of your few dozen thousands of players in 23 countries.

Another bit of LOOT by some:

SOME SAY THE END IS NEAR.
SOME SAY WE'LL SEE ARMAGEDDON SOON.
I CERTAINLY HOPE WE WILL.
I SURE COULD USE A VACATION FROM THIS

BULL**** THREE RING CIRCUS SIDESHOW OF FREAKS

HERE IN THIS HOPELESS ****ING HOLE WE CALL <EVE>
THE ONLY WAY TO FIX IT IS TO FLUSH IT ALL AWAY.
ANY ****ING TIME. ANY ****ING DAY.
LEARN TO <LEAVE>, SEE YA, <AND BAD MOUTHING IT ALL THE WAY>.

FRET FOR YOUR <EXOTIC DANCERS> AND
FRET FOR YOUR <PITH A-TYPES> AND
FRET FOR YOUR <STANDING LOSS> AND
FRET FOR YOUR <ISKEES> AND
FRET FOR YOUR <LONG LIMB RO> AND
FRET FOR YOUR <PILOT> AND
FRET FOR YOUR CONTRACT AND
FRET FOR YOUR <TENGU>.

IT'S A BULL**** THREE RING CIRCUS SIDESHOW OF FREAKS

SOME SAY A COMET WILL FALL FROM THE SKY.
FOLLOWED BY METEOR SHOWERS AND TIDAL WAVES.
FOLLOWED BY FAULTLINES THAT CANNOT SIT STILL.
FOLLOWED BY <CCP DEVELOPERS> WHO ARE DUMBFOUNDED DIP****S.

I SURE COULD USE A VACATION FROM THIS

STUPID ****, SILLY ****, STUPID ****...

ONE GREAT BIG FESTERING NEON DISTRACTION,
I'VE A SUGGESTION TO KEEP YOU ALL OCCUPIED.

LEARN TO <LEAVE>
LEARN TO <GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY>
LEARN TO <GRILL AND THROW A FRISBEE>

**** <GM-WHAT-THE-****> AND
**** ALL HIS CLONES.
**** ALL THESE GUN-TOTING
<PIRATE> GANGSTER WANNABEES.

LEARN TO <LEAVE>

**** RETRO <HAS RUN OUTTA AMMO>.
**** YOUR <TOON’S> TATTOOS.
**** ALL YOU JUNKIES AND
**** YOUR <TENGUS>.

LEARN TO <LEAVE>

**** SMILEY GLAD-HANDS
WITH HIDDEN AGENDAS.
**** THESE DYSFUNCTIONAL,
INSECURE <EGOS>.

LEARN TO <LEAVE>

CUZ I'M PRAYING FOR RAIN
AND I'M PRAYING FOR TIDAL WAVES
I WANNA SEE THE GROUND GIVE WAY.
I WANNA WATCH IT ALL GO DOWN.
PLEASE FLUSH IT ALL AWAY.
I WANNA SEE IT GO RIGHT IN AND DOWN.
I WANNA WATCH IT GO RIGHT IN.
WATCH YOU FLUSH IT ALL AWAY.

TIME TO BRING IT DOWN AGAIN.
DON'T JUST CALL ME PESSIMIST.
TRY AND READ BETWEEN THE LINES.

I WANNA SEE IT ALL COME DOWN.
SUCK IT DOWN.
FLUSH IT DOWN.

Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.06.16 01:08:00 - [644]
 

Edited by: Rip Minner on 16/06/2010 01:11:39
Originally by: RedLion
EVE really needs more 0.0 and low-sec entrances!


I am on board with that. But moving level 5's to low sec is not it. They already know its a form of pve that dont mix with the pvp. Thats why they did the new sleeper AI.

What they should realy do is pull all level 1-5 missions out of low sec and place new level 1-5 missions in low sec based off of the sleeper AI. Give this missions better bountys and mission payouts base wise not just high Q and low sec reasons. Defernt LP stores with better Iteams then the ones already in high sec.

Now copy the same for 0.0 NPC space with out the LP store changes becouse they already have better and differnt iteams in there Stores.

And now its fixed. low sec will not even feel the lp ratio loses of high sec as there lp's and iteams will be differnt.

Ghurthe
Posted - 2010.06.16 01:33:00 - [645]
 

Originally by: Umega
Ha.. 22 pages of 'mommy, please keep holding my hand?'.

I'm sure CCP designed lvl 5 with the intention of people doing them with friends, in groups.. instead of one lone guy with a small collection of alts 'soloing' it. How does such a person afford a small collection of alts? Oh yeah.. cause lvl 5 missions pay that much to take care of several of plexes + plenty left over for toys.

Plenty of people got friends, in corps.. that did and continue to do 5s in low.

So whats the big deal?

Big deal is now the people did it solo with multi accounts are going to cry foul.. and make whatever excuse and bull**** story to convince CCP and people on here that is better to have them in highsec.

I completely disagree. Risk to reward.. how one person can easily pull off lvl 5s running a couple of accounts is pretty absurd. I know its tough for some of you to swallow having lived up in the penthouse for a couple of years to now actually have to defend what you believe is your given right to have access to by yourself.

Rather ridiculous.. how a lot of the top tier of a profession takes teamwork, a group of people to achieve it.. and then to have mission running ignore this principle?

Selfish. I see a lot of little kids running in here pulling the 'If you don't do it my way, I'm going to hold my breath and DIE! I'll do it! I'm going to cancel my sub! Just you wait! Here I go!' Right. If you truly enjoyed lvl 5s and it isn't about risk to reward ratio to mass isk.. then you'd have no problem finding a corp that has and continues to do lvl 5s in low.

That's all there is to it. Call it CCP trying to force people into low. I call it making mission running more in line with the other professions in the game.




yeah but the reward is so small when you split it among 5-6 players that it's basically not worth it.

And if the mission jams you RR Battleships, basically the only viable strategy left, are useless.

DrCritter
Posted - 2010.06.16 01:37:00 - [646]
 

Originally by: Rip Minner
Edited by: Rip Minner on 16/06/2010 01:11:39
Originally by: RedLion
EVE really needs more 0.0 and low-sec entrances!


I am on board with that. But moving level 5's to low sec is not it. They already know its a form of pve that dont mix with the pvp. Thats why they did the new sleeper AI.

What they should realy do is pull all level 1-5 missions out of low sec and place new level 1-5 missions in low sec based off of the sleeper AI. Give this missions better bountys and mission payouts base wise not just high Q and low sec reasons. Defernt LP stores with better Iteams then the ones already in high sec.

Now copy the same for 0.0 NPC space with out the LP store changes becouse they already have better and differnt iteams in there Stores.

And now its fixed. low sec will not even feel the lp ratio loses of high sec as there lp's and iteams will be differnt.


3 cheers for that! Laughing Now their is a plan to get people more interested in low sec. If you could come out and run level 1's for starters that are different and don't cost your entire wallet to pull off would be awesome. All level 5's in low sec should be capital friendly, and possibly make the lp store more like fw missions where you can buy some of the same stuff but at reduced lp cost, and of course some different stuff but I can't say what exactly. Fw LP stores sell navy scorps along with navy drones, navy cap charges and different implants to name a few. I still think the existing L5's should remain in high sec however, that or maybe a new L4.5 or something that takes longer than 10-15 minuets to pull off. L4's are just way to noobish to be the high end of high sec pve.

makrish1
Posted - 2010.06.16 01:37:00 - [647]
 

Originally by: Umega
Ha.. 22 pages of 'mommy, please keep holding my hand?'.

I'm sure CCP designed lvl 5 with the intention of people doing them with friends, in groups.. instead of one lone guy with a small collection of alts 'soloing' it. How does such a person afford a small collection of alts? Oh yeah.. cause lvl 5 missions pay that much to take care of several of plexes + plenty left over for toys.

Plenty of people got friends, in corps.. that did and continue to do 5s in low.

So whats the big deal?

Big deal is now the people did it solo with multi accounts are going to cry foul.. and make whatever excuse and bull**** story to convince CCP and people on here that is better to have them in highsec.

I completely disagree. Risk to reward.. how one person can easily pull off lvl 5s running a couple of accounts is pretty absurd. I know its tough for some of you to swallow having lived up in the penthouse for a couple of years to now actually have to defend what you believe is your given right to have access to by yourself.

Rather ridiculous.. how a lot of the top tier of a profession takes teamwork, a group of people to achieve it.. and then to have mission running ignore this principle?

Selfish. I see a lot of little kids running in here pulling the 'If you don't do it my way, I'm going to hold my breath and DIE! I'll do it! I'm going to cancel my sub! Just you wait! Here I go!' Right. If you truly enjoyed lvl 5s and it isn't about risk to reward ratio to mass isk.. then you'd have no problem finding a corp that has and continues to do lvl 5s in low.

That's all there is to it. Call it CCP trying to force people into low. I call it making mission running more in line with the other professions in the game.




You're an idiot. Sorry to say it, but you are. You completely fail to read the rest of the thread and read the arguments against the points you raised, which have been raised by plenty of people beforehand. Before this update, you'll be able to solo in a 2bil ship. After this update, you'll be able to do it in a 2bil ship, but with maybe a couple of friends for PvP support. Rewards have been split by 3 people, and your friends may lose their ships when a pirate comes in. What if the pirate has friends? Oh no, suddenly you're down 2bil and have been podded, there goes all the implants too. So for a third of the reward, you've got plenty more risk. Yay CCP.

You won't be able to find a corp with which to do L5's, and you know why? Most highsec corps are either miners or missioners. The missioners form corps because they want to do L5's. However, if the missioner's PvE ships keep getting blown up by pirates, then the missioner will just give up trying to do L5's. Voila, no L5 corps.

Keep in mind that these people soloing have built up their skills and wealth over a couple of years, each of which they paid for, whether by money or isk. I don't know about you, but I'd be damn well frustrated at having spent that much time getting into a 2bil isk ship, getting to the pinnacle of PvE and finding that I couldn't do them anymore.

If I wanted to PvE with a bit of PvP on the side, I'd rat, or do complexes, in lowsec or nullsec. Why? Potential reward is much greater.

gyran
Posted - 2010.06.16 03:09:00 - [648]
 


What this nerf sounds like is that ccp is removing alot of the isk income from the game. The reason i say this is that prices on everything has fallen because of the introduction of Hulks. The miner population is being hurt because of an over abundance of raw materials from cheap hulks on the market. They are driving down the price of everything and having mission runners with tons of isk from level 5 missions unballances the miner vs mission runners.
CCP is stopping the good income in order to please some miners who are seeing their isk dry up and are looking at mission runners and complaining about the diffrence in income.
what we will end up with is frustrated mission runners who want their level 5 missions because of the good income. Then the miners will end up with customers (mission runners) who don't have as much isk because of the level 5 mission nerf. The miner thought he had problems before now they will have a glut of items on the market that people wont buy because they wont have as much isk. This in turn will drive down the price of the items the miners provide making it even worse for the miners than it was before the nerf.
Who ever decided to nerf the level 5 missions should have made more ships instead that took up the over abundance of raw materials being produced by the Hulks everywhere.

Daan Sai
Polytrope
Posted - 2010.06.16 03:21:00 - [649]
 

It isn't a matter of risk - it is pretty much suicide if you get caught in a L5 in lowsec by a pirate /gang. No balance, just dead.

1) They scan and know your setup beforehand
2) You have a PVE fit - no PvP modules (ECM, cap injectors, MWD, scram, buffer tank)
3) You are already soaking up a fair amount of DPS ( 2k+ in some cases), and are usually neuted dead so you can't even warp out.

Over the years the PvE and PvP setups and techniques have diverged to the point that each makes basically no sense in the other setting. In lowsec *all* the advantage is with the attacking PvP, not just some. This is whether you have a gang or not yourself.

Lowsec courier missions have some possibility, using stealth techniques etc, but lowsec combat missions without complete control of the running system is simply not feasible. Not riskier, just not feasible.

So.... We have to leave the L5s to larger lowsec denizen groups who control the systems, and the small corps/indies are left out - totally. Looks like that is what CCP wants - desireable systems in lowsec to control completely.

Personally, I liked the L5s in highsec because:

1) I only play a limited number of hours each day - one level 5 helps average out over the time I don't play. A lot of casual players fall in this camp.

2) The promised overhaul of the mission system, with dynamic changing missions over *epic* (ie 30-40 mission in an arc) series has never really happened in the two years since it was discussed ( remember project Agnet Orange?).
The tedium of saving that damn damsel one more time is just too much. L5s offered a PVE challenge for folks at the end of the L4 road, although even they are getting a bit stale.

3) Running them truly solo - no alts, no logisitics, requires significant skill sets for the pilot char, that takes a long time to train. Getting in and out of Lowsec without jumpclones on a regular basis alone takes skills, preparation and patience. All this is a challenge that highsec L4s can't offer.

So, I was based in lowsec - running some lowsec courier missions and highsec combat L5 missions. I provide a (difficult) target to the lowsec folks along the way, but I am not going to sit in my PvE fit ship just waiting for an inevitable gank in lowsec.

TLDR: PvE and PvP simply don't mix, CCP has evolved the game so the gap is now just too large between the different setups. This makes lowsec L5 combat missions into suicide mission, not riskier, just dumb. There is *no balance* between PVE and PvP, and it is worst in lowsec.


PS: If the rewards are somehow too large (lol) - most are not doing it for the isk BTW - then simply determine where the mission will send you and adjust the rewards accordingly. If the L5 lands in highsec then reduce the LP and bonus. I'd still run them.

Daan






Chomskian
Minmatar
Paxton Industries
Posted - 2010.06.16 03:49:00 - [650]
 

Edited by: Chomskian on 16/06/2010 03:50:33
this has probably been suggested somewhere in here, but my eyes glazed over after 10 pgs or thereabouts.

what about this.

move level 5 missions to only be hi-sec (or for them to be hi-sec or lowsec depending on where the agent is located). Make them harder than level 4s (possibly with sleeper style AI) for better rewards.

make another level of mission which never ever spawns in hi-sec. Lets call them level 6. Make them much harder but make the rewards that much better to that there will be plenty of takers who will gather up a gang and run them (which was the point of level 5 after all, little did CCP know we'd be mostly doing them solo or with one other person.)

Well, in my brain it seems logical.

Chomskian

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.16 04:29:00 - [651]
 

Quote:

Oh no, suddenly you're down 2bil and have been podded, there goes all the implants too. So for a third of the reward, you've got plenty more risk. Yay CCP



It's like 3-4 ships vs 3-4 ships warfare. Since I have some doubt you'll get 10 minutes module lag over this, how do you exactly lose the pod in low sec?


Quote:

The missioners form corps because they want to do L5's. However, if the missioner's PvE ships keep getting blown up by pirates, then the missioner will just give up trying to do L5's. Voila, no L5 corps



1) I have yet to see how many missioneers are not soloers.

2) Even those being social should think they are risking more by accepting someone in a corp (it could be the usual corp mates join, gank them till kicked) than going in low sec.

3) Low sec corps exist and they DO farm PvE. "Pirates" is a broad and usually incomplete profile covering:

- solo (2-3 ships) gate camper: he's the pirate equivalent of a L5 missioneer, "soloing" his predictable "PvE" aka imprudent haulers.

- PvPer, always in search of something to blow up, they won't even try and ransom.

- FW player, they pew pew a lot but usually are not pirates and care for their sec status. They often fight against organized (ie not the above) pirates and vice versa.

- Low sec PvP oriented or PvP + pirate or PvP + merc corps, they import stuff from hi sec but live in low sec and tend to defend some territory including mission hubs that they use. They are "users" of L4 Q20 and L5 missions.

In at least one case (the last), they are as lively and deserving PvE as you are.


I spent months down in low sec (FW corp) and never killed a pidgeon in a pirate-style gate camp. Did mining and L4 missioning though.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.06.16 05:41:00 - [652]
 

Originally by: Daan Sai
It isn't a matter of risk - it is pretty much suicide if you get caught in a L5 in lowsec by a pirate /gang. No balance, just dead.

1) They scan and know your setup beforehand
2) You have a PVE fit - no PvP modules (ECM, cap injectors, MWD, scram, buffer tank)
3) You are already soaking up a fair amount of DPS ( 2k+ in some cases), and are usually neuted dead so you can't even warp out.

Over the years the PvE and PvP setups and techniques have diverged to the point that each makes basically no sense in the other setting. In lowsec *all* the advantage is with the attacking PvP, not just some. This is whether you have a gang or not yourself.

Lowsec courier missions have some possibility, using stealth techniques etc, but lowsec combat missions without complete control of the running system is simply not feasible. Not riskier, just not feasible.

So.... We have to leave the L5s to larger lowsec denizen groups who control the systems, and the small corps/indies are left out - totally. Looks like that is what CCP wants - desireable systems in lowsec to control completely.

Personally, I liked the L5s in highsec because:

1) I only play a limited number of hours each day - one level 5 helps average out over the time I don't play. A lot of casual players fall in this camp.

2) The promised overhaul of the mission system, with dynamic changing missions over *epic* (ie 30-40 mission in an arc) series has never really happened in the two years since it was discussed ( remember project Agnet Orange?).
The tedium of saving that damn damsel one more time is just too much. L5s offered a PVE challenge for folks at the end of the L4 road, although even they are getting a bit stale.

3) Running them truly solo - no alts, no logisitics, requires significant skill sets for the pilot char, that takes a long time to train. Getting in and out of Lowsec without jumpclones on a regular basis alone takes skills, preparation and patience. All this is a challenge that highsec L4s can't offer.

So, I was based in lowsec - running some lowsec courier missions and highsec combat L5 missions. I provide a (difficult) target to the lowsec folks along the way, but I am not going to sit in my PvE fit ship just waiting for an inevitable gank in lowsec.

TLDR: PvE and PvP simply don't mix, CCP has evolved the game so the gap is now just too large between the different setups. This makes lowsec L5 combat missions into suicide mission, not riskier, just dumb. There is *no balance* between PVE and PvP, and it is worst in lowsec.


PS: If the rewards are somehow too large (lol) - most are not doing it for the isk BTW - then simply determine where the mission will send you and adjust the rewards accordingly. If the L5 lands in highsec then reduce the LP and bonus. I'd still run them.

Daan



QFT


Another important point is: you have to finish the mission or you will lose standing.
This could easily drop you below the point where you can get new L5 missions.
It's not like ratting in low-/nullsec where you just move on when local raises to a number you don't feel comfortable with.

Your mission is there and you have to complete it where it is.
And they are not like FW missions where you can run around in a Stealth Bomber.

Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2010.06.16 06:06:00 - [653]
 

Don't blame CCP just cause some of you don't got the balls, friends, and ability to lock down a low sec system. Quite a number of corps have proven the ability to do so.. and then freely enjoy running lvl 5s with mates, carriers, whatever tickles their fancy.

Don't blame me for calling you people out for your own lack of abilities to adapt to the situation. Think with your heads, is that so difficult? Taking a new approach? Of course jumping into some lowsec you aren't familiar with jus' a couple of scouts isn't the best approach..

So why not do what nullsec/wh corp and alliances do in their 'arenas'.. get your **** together and take over a lowsec area for the lvl 5s. If they truly are for fun and to pimp ride your megaboats, then you should welcome the challange and do it. Otheriwse.. still stinks a lot like cries for easy isk. If you don't feel the risk meets the reward.. well then.. isn't my point made? But onward with what you feel is your only chance to succeed.. get CCP to hold your hand again and make it all 'right'.

When CCP has already given you everything ingame to accomplish. Others have.. so again, why can't some of you? Quit the 'PvE ships don't work against PvP' crap. That line is tha same in wormholes or nullsec or highsec.. what makes lowsec any different? Not a damn thing cept your own unability to adapt and take control of the situation.

This is EVE.. you want something, go take it. Otherwise..

You are Pathetic, and that is your own fault.

Canteen Charlie
Minmatar
Whiskey Shooters
Posted - 2010.06.16 06:47:00 - [654]
 

Originally by: Daan Sai
It isn't a matter of risk - it is pretty much suicide if you get caught in a L5 in lowsec by a pirate /gang. No balance, just dead.

1) They scan and know your setup beforehand
2) You have a PVE fit - no PvP modules (ECM, cap injectors, MWD, scram, buffer tank)
3) You are already soaking up a fair amount of DPS ( 2k+ in some cases), and are usually neuted dead so you can't even warp out.

Over the years the PvE and PvP setups and techniques have diverged to the point that each makes basically no sense in the other setting. In lowsec *all* the advantage is with the attacking PvP, not just some. This is whether you have a gang or not yourself.

Lowsec courier missions have some possibility, using stealth techniques etc, but lowsec combat missions without complete control of the running system is simply not feasible. Not riskier, just not feasible.

So.... We have to leave the L5s to larger lowsec denizen groups who control the systems, and the small corps/indies are left out - totally. Looks like that is what CCP wants - desireable systems in lowsec to control completely.

Personally, I liked the L5s in highsec because:

1) I only play a limited number of hours each day - one level 5 helps average out over the time I don't play. A lot of casual players fall in this camp.

2) The promised overhaul of the mission system, with dynamic changing missions over *epic* (ie 30-40 mission in an arc) series has never really happened in the two years since it was discussed ( remember project Agnet Orange?).
The tedium of saving that damn damsel one more time is just too much. L5s offered a PVE challenge for folks at the end of the L4 road, although even they are getting a bit stale.

3) Running them truly solo - no alts, no logisitics, requires significant skill sets for the pilot char, that takes a long time to train. Getting in and out of Lowsec without jumpclones on a regular basis alone takes skills, preparation and patience. All this is a challenge that highsec L4s can't offer.

So, I was based in lowsec - running some lowsec courier missions and highsec combat L5 missions. I provide a (difficult) target to the lowsec folks along the way, but I am not going to sit in my PvE fit ship just waiting for an inevitable gank in lowsec.

TLDR: PvE and PvP simply don't mix, CCP has evolved the game so the gap is now just too large between the different setups. This makes lowsec L5 combat missions into suicide mission, not riskier, just dumb. There is *no balance* between PVE and PvP, and it is worst in lowsec.


PS: If the rewards are somehow too large (lol) - most are not doing it for the isk BTW - then simply determine where the mission will send you and adjust the rewards accordingly. If the L5 lands in highsec then reduce the LP and bonus. I'd still run them.

Daan









SPOT ON POST!!

- Those that run these in groups of two or even solo have incredibly great skills and extremely expensive mods. They should benefit from that. Their ships cost the same as a small fleet of standard ships. It should make sense they are comparable in ability.

- Our corp wouldn't even care if the rewards for L5's went down by 50%. We did them for the fun because everything else in PVE is just dull as doorknobs after you get to a certain level.


Moja Aniolem
Posted - 2010.06.16 07:29:00 - [655]
 

Originally by: Daan Sai
It isn't a matter of risk - it is pretty much suicide if you get caught in a L5 in lowsec by a pirate /gang. No balance, just dead.

MORE EXCELLENT RETORT WAS HERE. (SEE ORIGINAL POST)




Hi Daan Sai,

You won't remember as we met on one of my many alts but i'd like to highlight how well thought out your post is to anyone else reading this thread. All the 'my null/low sec balls' are bigger then your 'high sec balls' crap totally obfuscates the fact that there are serious deficiencies in the amount of 'sand' in the box for a vast majority of EVE's players.

Daan is right. Trying to run an L5 and simultaneously being engaged by RATS is not remotely fair. Perhaps if the AI on stupid h-space RATS actually made even the remotest sense it might. I mean every npc flown ship in missions right from L1 to L5 is piloted by a suicidal idiot from what I can tell. And aren't the NPC's not even capsuleers... so they actually die right? whilst vainly trying to dent my <insert your T2 mission runner here>. Even when only one lousy frigate remains he won't warp out, surely he'll succeed despite every other member of his 40 man fleet being so much space trash.

CCP, perhaps it's time you stopped trying to tell capsuleers how to play (using your hardcore icelandic ideals of what fun is) and start making more challenging PVE content. Every other successful MMO out their caters for the PVE market. It won't ruin your hardcore drinking/whoring image. You post far too many pictures on social networks for that.

You could even *shock horror* pull a couple of dev's off Dust to you know help out those whose money is funding your Console push.

PS - Jump Clone timer sucks. Add Crew pls, for all my empty windows. Dedicated arenas in h-sec where people can risk their ships and rigs, but not their implants and people can watch. Like the tournaments but for the average joe... innovative i know.

PPS - EVE GATE IS SLOW ... and BORING.

Libin Herobi
Posted - 2010.06.16 07:32:00 - [656]
 

Originally by: Umega
Don't blame CCP just cause some of you don't got the balls, friends, and ability to lock down a low sec system. Quite a number of corps have proven the ability to do so.. and then freely enjoy running lvl 5s with mates, carriers, whatever tickles their fancy.

Don't blame me for calling you people out for your own lack of abilities to adapt to the situation. Think with your heads, is that so difficult? Taking a new approach? Of course jumping into some lowsec you aren't familiar with jus' a couple of scouts isn't the best approach..

So why not do what nullsec/wh corp and alliances do in their 'arenas'.. get your **** together and take over a lowsec area for the lvl 5s. If they truly are for fun and to pimp ride your megaboats, then you should welcome the challange and do it. Otheriwse.. still stinks a lot like cries for easy isk. If you don't feel the risk meets the reward.. well then.. isn't my point made? But onward with what you feel is your only chance to succeed.. get CCP to hold your hand again and make it all 'right'.

When CCP has already given you everything ingame to accomplish. Others have.. so again, why can't some of you? Quit the 'PvE ships don't work against PvP' crap. That line is tha same in wormholes or nullsec or highsec.. what makes lowsec any different? Not a damn thing cept your own unability to adapt and take control of the situation.

This is EVE.. you want something, go take it. Otherwise..

You are Pathetic, and that is your own fault.


People in here are only trying to protect their investment (game time and/or subscription money).
You see it's very reasonable to do that. Only an idiot would silently accept a change that puts him in a worse situation.

And this attempt is not futile at all:
You might want to look at the "deep-safe-nerf" or the "capital threadnaught" from dominion or the return of the NPC corp descriptions. People telling what they like or don't like are not always getting exactly what they want, but they do make a difference or do you think CCP will modify level 1-4 mission distribution because everyone "just adapted"?!

CCP basically raised the requirements to use certain content.
As some people already pointed out: you just don't fly into lowsec to run a level 5 mission after that change.
You either need to be (relatively) confident that the system is clean and/or that you can defend yourself/the mission if it becomes necessary.
That is quite a bit more than missioning in highsec, no?
It doesn't make sense to just "shrug that off" unless you are completely ignorant about things like efficiency

Just try to think about raising the requirements for some other content:
How about "We believe Command Ships should require Fleet Command IV. After all a Command Ship is there for a commander and a commander is nothing without a fleet, so you need Fleet Command for this. kthxbai"

People who already have Fleet Command IV will tend to say "great, that makes sense"
People who are close to Fleet Command IV will tend to say "just suck it up, train the damn skill and be done with it"
People who are quite far from Fleet Command IV but were able to fly it will tend to say: F*CK YOU, you ruined months of training"
People who were training to fly a Command Ship will tend to say "Great that ship is just not worth training all this crap. Now I need to find another goal, maybe I should quit altogether"
People who never cared about Command Ships will tend to say "Just stop whining, m'kay?!"

That's pretty much what we're seeing here, no?


Also:
take your "it's only for the better" attitude and apply it to your family, spouse or whomever likes it.

makrish1
Posted - 2010.06.16 07:54:00 - [657]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

It's like 3-4 ships vs 3-4 ships warfare. Since I have some doubt you'll get 10 minutes module lag over this, how do you exactly lose the pod in low sec?

1) I have yet to see how many missioneers are not soloers.

2) Even those being social should think they are risking more by accepting someone in a corp (it could be the usual corp mates join, gank them till kicked) than going in low sec.

3) Low sec corps exist and they DO farm PvE. "Pirates" is a broad and usually incomplete profile covering:

- solo (2-3 ships) gate camper: he's the pirate equivalent of a L5 missioneer, "soloing" his predictable "PvE" aka imprudent haulers.

- PvPer, always in search of something to blow up, they won't even try and ransom.

- FW player, they pew pew a lot but usually are not pirates and care for their sec status. They often fight against organized (ie not the above) pirates and vice versa.

- Low sec PvP oriented or PvP + pirate or PvP + merc corps, they import stuff from hi sec but live in low sec and tend to defend some territory including mission hubs that they use. They are "users" of L4 Q20 and L5 missions.

In at least one case (the last), they are as lively and deserving PvE as you are.


I spent months down in low sec (FW corp) and never killed a pidgeon in a pirate-style gate camp. Did mining and L4 missioning though.



It's actually fairly easy to be podded in small gangs, a small moment of shock or hesitation, or a misclick when opening the menu... I've in fact been podded in highsec, in a wardec before. Tried to warp off as soon as my ship popped, but still got scrammed and podded.

Sorry for being so 'general' when referring to pirates, I generally meant gate campers, ninja salvagers, and griefers in general. I've never heard of FW referred to as being pirate before, but if you say so.

If you haven't seen any specialised missioning corps, I suggest you join recruitment channel. They are rife with them. They do some odd mining on the side, too. The corps usually advertise themselves as doing L4's, with doing the odd L5. These are highsec corps, by the way.

I don't disagree that there are corps in lowsec who deserve to PvE just as people in highsec do, just that the standards should be raised so much that typical highsec corp fleets are unable to finish an L5 combat mission.

makrish1
Posted - 2010.06.16 08:04:00 - [658]
 

Originally by: Umega
Don't blame CCP just cause some of you don't got the balls, friends, and ability to lock down a low sec system. Quite a number of corps have proven the ability to do so.. and then freely enjoy running lvl 5s with mates, carriers, whatever tickles their fancy.

Don't blame me for calling you people out for your own lack of abilities to adapt to the situation. Think with your heads, is that so difficult? Taking a new approach? Of course jumping into some lowsec you aren't familiar with jus' a couple of scouts isn't the best approach..

So why not do what nullsec/wh corp and alliances do in their 'arenas'.. get your **** together and take over a lowsec area for the lvl 5s. If they truly are for fun and to pimp ride your megaboats, then you should welcome the challange and do it. Otheriwse.. still stinks a lot like cries for easy isk. If you don't feel the risk meets the reward.. well then.. isn't my point made? But onward with what you feel is your only chance to succeed.. get CCP to hold your hand again and make it all 'right'.

When CCP has already given you everything ingame to accomplish. Others have.. so again, why can't some of you? Quit the 'PvE ships don't work against PvP' crap. That line is tha same in wormholes or nullsec or highsec.. what makes lowsec any different? Not a damn thing cept your own unability to adapt and take control of the situation.

This is EVE.. you want something, go take it. Otherwise..

You are Pathetic, and that is your own fault.



I'd like you to point out any carebear which can effectively deal with a PvPer, whether it be solo or in a fleet, let alone lock down a system. Besides which, I'd offer to let you fight my PvE raven in a PvP fit BC or BS, but I'm afraid I'd lose my raven. It's very easy to destroy a PvE ship, all you really need is a neut or two.

Lieoth
Posted - 2010.06.16 08:04:00 - [659]
 

I understand some agents are in low sec areas and even some missions from all agents will send you into low sec at times. What I do not understand is why level five agents would only give missions in low sec. Mission running like mining has always been about a choice. Do I take the bigger risk and more profit run in low sec or play it safe and stay in high sec? Why would a level 5 mission be any different? Like most unless prepared for PvP going into low sec is just asking to loose ship and pod. Gate camps, pirates, corps that claim the area would all stand in the way of completing or even starting these missions. Choice is always good. Taking away an aspect of the game is a poor idea without a extremely well thought out and good reason. As stated these missions came out in 2007 changing this now after so long makes little sense. It was such a non issue you did not even bother to fix it for two years. Its part of the game now its ours and taking it away now is like stealing. Please reconsider.

Jazz Tangle
Posted - 2010.06.16 08:16:00 - [660]
 

After being quite sad about this decision, I think CCP might have a better reason than actually stated. lvl5's in highsec makes earning ISK a little too easy and will get more and more people into paying for their accounts and alts with PLEX instead of a monthly subscription fee. The more skilled carebears get into soloing lvl5's, the less people will actually pay real money for their accounts, which is a liability for CCP. But there are different solutions, and probably supply and demand would have solved this issue itself with PLEX becoming more and more expensive. Also a simple check to see if the mission is in highsec (and with that lowering the payout in isk and LP considerably) would've been an option.

I really liked doing lvl5 missions in highsec with friends as lvl4's are simply easy to solo at some point and I have to be honest, I'm not going to do lvl5's in low sec as I go to low and nullsec to do pvp, not missioning.

As for addressing the lvl 1-4 issue, I'm getting tired of declining missions and waiting for 4 hours everytime which has a direct result that I'm not playing as fanatically as before, exploration sites don't spawn enough to keep me busy and entertained. I hope this is getting fixed soon.


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