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Dark reminance
Posted - 2010.06.15 03:00:00 - [601]
 

Edited by: Dark reminance on 15/06/2010 03:01:11
…was listening to feedback from some, as it was already well known, but more importantly, it all lead to the same conclusion.

Here’s some of that feed back: (it goes both ways CCP)

So, **** this <game>, **** this <game> / **** it end-to-end, **** it up and down
can't get noticed—can't get found—can't get a cut / so **** this town
---a Nashville South Mouth

Throw stones from the top of your rock thinking no one can see
the secrets you hide behind your <Icelandic> hospitality
---some southern Chicks

Is this hell or Eve?
---a bottle rocket

You ask how I know of <eve online>? Well, I spent a week there one day
they've got entertainment to dazzle your eyes:
Go visit the bakery and watch the buns rise.
---a spiritual pilot now

If they stare, let them stare at <Tierranus> There's only one good use for a <**** release>
you hate it, and you know you'll have to leave."
---L & J

Been in so many places
you know I've run so many races
and looked into the empty faces of the <pilots> of the night
and something is just not right
---an asthetic that will never bloom in concrete confines

<New Eden’s> alright if you wanna get pushed in front of a subway
<New Eden’s> alright if you like tuberculosis
---sax


<New Eden>, <New Eden>, I won't go back
indelible reminder of the steel I lack
I gave you <enough>, what did you give me back?
a jaw-grind, disposition to a panic attack
---Artanis

This <release>, I'd let it burn to the ground
and I hope my friends are the ones who set it."
---Pink Horse

Banality now keeps the city wound
---the church of SATAN

It's a lovely summer's day / And I can almost see the skyline
through a thickening shroud of egos
---man, Cutie sure got that right about you CCP.

Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist

makrish1
Posted - 2010.06.15 03:05:00 - [602]
 

Originally by: APHRATTOS

I would guess that the highest value ccp customers are the guys who pvp on several accounts and sell game time codes/plex to replace their losses, blown up ships = money out of the eve universe to ccp.
If ccp realy cared about isk faucets then they would change real one like 0.0 moon mining more than they have already done.



You misunderstand the term 'isk faucet'. It's used to describe an inflow isk into the game, rather than a player or a corporation. The only isk faucets in game are missions and rat bounties. All the others are just exchanges of isk between players, and the only isk sinks exist in jump clones, LP store rewards, NPC market goods, and NPC taxes, and they aren't very significant.

Also, you miss the concept of plexes, too. Plexes require people to buy them. If missioners leave the game due to no challenge, or an impossible challenge, then demand for plex falls due to the simple fact that they are the only ones (along with miners) who can buy them, as they are the only ones who make isk regularly. In simple economics, if demand falls, and supply remains constant, then the price of the good must fall, otherwise the optimum is not achieved. This will cause the price of plex to fall, and as a result of this, less people will turn towards buying plex (trade-off between isk and RL money), causing less revenue for CCP. In reality, it is in CCP's interest to keep the mission runners happy, regardless of whether or not the PvPers are happy or not.

It's amazing how many people only look at immediate effects and completely disregard knock-on effects. Come on, people, look to the future.

DrCritter
Posted - 2010.06.15 04:39:00 - [603]
 

Originally by: makrish1


You misunderstand the term 'isk faucet'. It's used to describe an inflow isk into the game, rather than a player or a corporation. The only isk faucets in game are missions and rat bounties. All the others are just exchanges of isk between players, and the only isk sinks exist in jump clones, LP store rewards, NPC market goods, and NPC taxes, and they aren't very significant.


By that definition I would have to say L5's are a very tiny isk faucet. Only a hand full of L5 missions have any bounty's at all save a tiny amount for towers. The mission rewards are between 7 and 9 mil and the rest of the profit is in tags and LP. Sure many tags are sold to NPC characters but most are sold to other players since they pay more. Also most LP spent in LP stores is accompanied by isk so the net flow of newly created isk to the eve universe is rather small compared to level 4's.
Now it could be argued that if fewer players buy PLEX then most likely ccp characters would start buying them with their unlimited supply of free isk since they certainly wouldn't want to lose those sales. Hence unhappy players = a new form of isk faucet Laughing

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.06.15 05:03:00 - [604]
 

Edited by: Rip Minner on 15/06/2010 05:11:56
Edited by: Rip Minner on 15/06/2010 05:10:24
Edited by: Rip Minner on 15/06/2010 05:09:30
Edited by: Rip Minner on 15/06/2010 05:07:54
Edited by: Rip Minner on 15/06/2010 05:07:27
Edited by: Rip Minner on 15/06/2010 05:04:39
kk so this hole thing is based on risk V Reward right. Thats what I get from most of the posters. Now low sec people are always tring to claim there is no risk in runing missions so the good paying ones should be in low sec to inc the risk becouse there is no risk in runing high sec missions.

Then your going to love this. I just wish they had one for all ships and not just tech 3. But we will use what they give us.

first Quarterly Economic Newsletter of 2010

Security Group Count
High Sec 1,228
PVE 964
PVP 264
Low sec 601
PVE 75
PVP 526
Null sec 1,514
PVE 449
PVP 1,065
Wormhole Space 680
PVE 283
PVP 397
Total 4,023

Now if we look at the high sec will see that 964 ships were lost in PVE and that in low sec only 526 ships were lost in pvp. I think thats a clear and cut case of high sec ;mission runers lossing more ship in PVE in high sec with out help dieing then ships were lost in low sec to PVP.

So clearly level 5 missions should be in high sec becouse the greater risk is in losing a ship in a mission in high sec.ugh


Edit: plz keep in mind this are just tech 3 ships only there is no telling out many ships are realy lost in high sec missions verses low sec pvp. But people were using them for both here and they are the best ships out there right now that are not Capitol class ships.


Dark reminance
Posted - 2010.06.15 05:07:00 - [605]
 

Here's an economic ISK faucet analogy:

Turning off my isk faucet is like turning off my eve subscription.

How's that for supply and demand.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.06.15 05:30:00 - [606]
 

Originally by: MrRobot
Edited by: MrRobot on 14/06/2010 20:19:24
Originally by: Yasuhiro Matsu****a
One of the most important rules of economy says: Customer is always right ....


No, I think in that case CCP has to look mainly at the well being of the game - even if that means loosing a few customers.

High sec LVL5 had the potential to change the character of EVE, more than most here realize. It is true that since a long time they wre assigned in high sec, however in great number only since Dominion. Since then, the number of completed LVL5 missions increased exponentially, and CCP hat to pull the trigger on that one. No one knows that better than myself, I've done hundreds of them.

As to LVL5 not more profitable than 4er mission: you have no idea! With two or three high skill accounts you could do LVL5 missions at least as easy as 4er (if you don't loot, you can finish most of them in 20 min). All in all, the hourly ISK reward was about 150m. This dwarfs LVL4, and I think it's by far the most profitable activity a single person could do in this game. Concerning profitability, it would criple all other activities in the long term.

TL;DR: I think CCP did the right thing. Sure, some people now need to find some other area for their fun (including me and my alts). Some may even quit. But in the end it was absolutely necessary .


Ya so becouse jack offs were using 3 accounts everyone has to pay.ugh

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.06.15 05:42:00 - [607]
 

Edited by: Rip Minner on 15/06/2010 05:50:06
Edited by: Rip Minner on 15/06/2010 05:48:17
Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 14/06/2010 21:30:45

Originally by: Chasten Ruin
Read the numbers, most of the people live in Empire.

Yes, which is EXACTLY the problem! They live in absolute safety, creates loads of game resources, and cause's more of them to leave the game in Higher ship losses and more ammo fired then low sec.



Sorry Kerfira I have to fix your post again.

By Kerfira's logic and the first Quarterly Economic Newsletter of 2010

We will use the Tech 3 ships as the most powerfull ships in the game at this time that are not Capital's.

Security Group Count
High Sec 1,228
PVE 964
PVP 264
Low sec 601
PVE 75
PVP 526
Null sec 1,514
PVE 449
PVP 1,065
Wormhole Space 680
PVE 283
PVP 397
Total 4,023

I think the numbers speak for them selfs. It clearly looks like High Sec PVE is claming more Tech 3 Resources then all of low sec PVP and pVE put together.ugh

Edit: I had to though this in here too for shi z and giggles

Originally by: Chasten Ruin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as risk vs reward, there is still tons of risk doing level 5's in High Sec.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nope, there isn't! You don't lose ships unless you're incredibly stupidugh

What would be incredibly stupid is to asume Rolling Eyes

Libin Herobi
Posted - 2010.06.15 06:05:00 - [608]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 14/06/2010 21:30:45
Originally by: Chasten Ruin
First off, long term viability is not achieved by kneecapping content in the most populated area of space.

No, but it'll definitely help.
Originally by: Chasten Ruin
Read the numbers, most of the people live in Empire.

Yes, which is EXACTLY the problem! They live in absolute safety, creates loads of game resources, and doesn't cause any of them to disappear again.



And you honestly believe this will move people to lowsec? Laughing
What kind of moron are you?!

People stick to highsec because they wanna be in highsec.
If they wanted to run L5 missions in lowsec they would do so, because lowsec L5 missions were always available.
Stop acting like L5 missions were exclusively in high security space.
It was always a gamble to get one in highsec.

So you're spouting all this gibberish about risk/reward, about good fights versus players in missions (Laughing that's a really good one) and too many people in highsec.
FYI (as you like to say), this "fix" won't change anything about those things.
PVP ships will continue to easily crush a mission boat, risk/reward in highsec will stay pretty much the same with L4 missions being the usual activity, lowsec population will not raise and some highsec dwellers will leave the game.

But now I'm beginning to see where you are heading.
You're one of those who think it's best to get rid of all the people who sit in NPC corps.
OH WAIT, that would mean you have to go too Shocked
I guess that sounds too good to be true.


Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails

there seems to be peanut butter on your nose lol



Dondoran
Posted - 2010.06.15 06:41:00 - [609]
 

Now we know why these expansions are always free because who would pay for this garbage
I want to ask all the mission runners a question do you like getting kicked below the belt ? do you enjoy these ever more radical mission nerfs? CCP doesn't want you sure there going to take your money but you're not playing the game there way EVE online is distancing themselves from any good Hisec PVE give them a little more time and you will be lucky to run a level 3 in empire So lets all keep playing a game that dislikes us and continues to reduce there PVE content in empire and keep giving them our hard earned money I THINK NOT!

Misanthra
Posted - 2010.06.15 06:50:00 - [610]
 

Originally by: Dark reminance
Here's an economic ISK faucet analogy:

Turning off my isk faucet is like turning off my eve subscription.

How's that for supply and demand.


I can has your stuff?

Free accounts going away (assuming plex buys) not going to hurt ccp. Less non plexing customers emo raging will be replaced with new ones who did not have level 5's in empire and won't miss them to the point of emo rage quit (can't miss what you never had). Or they may go to low sec. Don't have figures....but guessing lv 5 agents still got a few customers. A wise man once said for every husband who won't sleep with his wife, there is a neighbor that will.


If people have not learned other ways beside mission running to make money in eve after being marauding level 5 masters (takes some time to do that), that's player error not game mechanics. Have more than one source of income. Trick learned by many pvp'ers cause in time of war you can't run plexes and rat everyday. Best to have a backup isk plan, more passive the better.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2010.06.15 07:01:00 - [611]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 15/06/2010 07:06:52
Originally by: makrish1
So congratulations in trying to have L5's relegated to lowsec, and thereby sending most PvE players, both old and new, out of the game from boredom.

"Most"? Only a few players do L5's, and only a few of those will quit.
This is what has been seen EVERY single time something is changed and people whine a lot.

You are, however, not getting the point. This game can only exist if there is a balance between people in high-sec and those willing to risk getting stuff blown up. By all indications there are already way too MANY people in highsec, and too many resources being created. Therefore adding more high-level content to high-sec that makes people stay for longer is not a good idea.
Originally by: Rip Minner
I think the numbers speak for them selfs. It clearly looks like High Sec PVE is claming more Tech 3 Resources then all of low sec PVP and pVE put together.ugh

Doh! Get your math together! Of.c. more ships are lost where 80% of EVE lives than where 5% of EVE lives!
Originally by: Libin Herobi
And you honestly believe this will move people to lowsec? Laughing

No, but it will mean fewer people in high-sec. Some will move to low/null, and others will quit. Them quitting is better for the game that them continuing to mass-produce resources.

Originally by: Libin Herobi
People stick to highsec because they wanna be in highsec.
If they wanted to run L5 missions in lowsec they would do so, because lowsec L5 missions were always available.

What people want is FAR down the list of CCP's priorities. At the top of that list is keeping the game viable, which includes keeping the 'carebear' population down.
Originally by: Libin Herobi
Stop acting like L5 missions were exclusively in high security space.

Most were run in high-sec because the bug made it possible. Soon they'll be gone Very Happy
Originally by: Libin Herobi
So you're spouting all this gibberish about risk/reward, about good fights versus players in missions (Laughing that's a really good one) and too many people in highsec.
FYI (as you like to say), this "fix" won't change anything about those things.
PVP ships will continue to easily crush a mission boat, risk/reward in highsec will stay pretty much the same with L4 missions being the usual activity, lowsec population will not raise and some highsec dwellers will leave the game.

Easy solution.... Bring a fleet to protect the PvE ships, or form a corp/alliance and get control of the mission system(s). You know, like in playing with other people...

That some high-sec people leave the game is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if they're old players who creates too many resources.
Originally by: Libin Herobi
But now I'm beginning to see where you are heading.
You're one of those who think it's best to get rid of all the people who sit in NPC corps.
OH WAIT, that would mean you have to go too Shocked
I guess that sounds too good to be true.

No, I don't mind people being in NPC corp. They're fully entitled to do that. I do however want to keep EVE a viable game, and that includes limiting the people who only provides resource faucets, and no resource sinks.

Also, this is a posting alt Cool
All my real characters are in corp.

Libin Herobi
Posted - 2010.06.15 07:39:00 - [612]
 

Originally by: Misanthra
Originally by: Dark reminance
Here's an economic ISK faucet analogy:

Turning off my isk faucet is like turning off my eve subscription.

How's that for supply and demand.


I can has your stuff?

Free accounts going away (assuming plex buys) not going to hurt ccp.


Stopped reading here.
Please go away and do not come back before you understood how PLEX works.

Where do all these moronic people come from?

Libin Herobi
Posted - 2010.06.15 08:01:00 - [613]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 15/06/2010 07:06:52
Originally by: makrish1
So congratulations in trying to have L5's relegated to lowsec, and thereby sending most PvE players, both old and new, out of the game from boredom.

"Most"? Only a few players do L5's, and only a few of those will quit.
This is what has been seen EVERY single time something is changed and people whine a lot.

You are, however, not getting the point. This game can only exist if there is a balance between people in high-sec and those willing to risk getting stuff blown up. By all indications there are already way too MANY people in highsec, and too many resources being created. Therefore adding more high-level content to high-sec that makes people stay for longer is not a good idea.



How many people in highsec are too many.
What would be a good number based on your expertise in this matter?

How many resources created by them are too many.
What would be a good number based on your expertise in this matter?

What are the harmful effect of people staying in higsec too long?

Originally by: Kerfira

Originally by: Libin Herobi
And you honestly believe this will move people to lowsec? Laughing

No, but it will mean fewer people in high-sec. Some will move to low/null, and others will quit. Them quitting is better for the game that them continuing to mass-produce resources.


How is that better?
What means better for "the game"? Is the game suddenly something we must care about? Like the mood of a machine?
You could mean "better for CCP" or "better for the players" or "better for me".

And even then "better" could mean anything.
Eg: it would be better if half the accounts were closed because this would reduce server load and thus improve performance/lag.


Originally by: Kerfira

Originally by: Libin Herobi
People stick to highsec because they wanna be in highsec.
If they wanted to run L5 missions in lowsec they would do so, because lowsec L5 missions were always available.

What people want is FAR down the list of CCP's priorities. At the top of that list is keeping the game viable, which includes keeping the 'carebear' population down.


CCP's business plan is to keep the size of their largest account segment down?
And you know that because ...?

Originally by: Kerfira

Originally by: Libin Herobi
Stop acting like L5 missions were exclusively in high security space.

Most were run in high-sec because the bug made it possible. Soon they'll be gone Very Happy


What's the source for that?
Care to give numbers?

And if anything that only states that almost no one cared about lowsec L5 before.
Why should anyone care about them now?

Originally by: Kerfira

Originally by: Libin Herobi
So you're spouting all this gibberish about risk/reward, about good fights versus players in missions (Laughing that's a really good one) and too many people in highsec.
FYI (as you like to say), this "fix" won't change anything about those things.
PVP ships will continue to easily crush a mission boat, risk/reward in highsec will stay pretty much the same with L4 missions being the usual activity, lowsec population will not raise and some highsec dwellers will leave the game.

Easy solution.... Bring a fleet to protect the PvE ships, or form a corp/alliance and get control of the mission system(s). You know, like in playing with other people...

That some high-sec people leave the game is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if they're old players who creates too many resources.



Does this apply to - let's say - Chribba?
He's certain one of the oldest players and the amount of veldspar he mines is said to be unimagineable.

makrish1
Posted - 2010.06.15 08:31:00 - [614]
 

Edited by: makrish1 on 15/06/2010 08:34:47
Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 15/06/2010 07:06:52
Originally by: makrish1
So congratulations in trying to have L5's relegated to lowsec, and thereby sending most PvE players, both old and new, out of the game from boredom.

"Most"? Only a few players do L5's, and only a few of those will quit.
This is what has been seen EVERY single time something is changed and people whine a lot.

You are, however, not getting the point. This game can only exist if there is a balance between people in high-sec and those willing to risk getting stuff blown up. By all indications there are already way too MANY people in highsec, and too many resources being created. Therefore adding more high-level content to high-sec that makes people stay for longer is not a good idea.



Congratulations on completely disregarding the rest of my post, where I explained. No one would grind L4's anymore, as they are boring after a month or two, and there's no way up from an L4 unless you want to get involved in PvP. A lot of people *don't* want to do that. Stop looking at short term effects, Kerfira, and look at long term effects. The value of isk *will* go up a lot with a much smaller isk faucet, pushing prices down.

I agree with your comment about the balance, but this is *not* the way to go about it. Also, people do not move according to your views. They do not go from highsec -> lowsec -> nullsec. A lot of people do NOT want to PvP, and therefore do NOT carebear in lowsec or nullsec. They also will not appreciate being told how to play this game by CCP, and will leave once they hit the ceiling (aka L4's). Either way, this will cause a huge fall in revenue for CCP. I won't be surprised if, this weekend, we see numbers around 55k, lower than last weekend's 60k.

This doesn't make the game viable long-term. It's a market upset, and balance will only come if CCP manages to provide more of a PvE challenge to highsec missioners whilst also causing the faucet to slow to a manageable level.

Edit: Also regarding the fleet presence in L5 lowsec missions.. They won't be profitable, and people will just resort to doing L4's again. It's also very possible that the pirates have friends, or even carriers, and bring them just for fun. Have fun taking out a carrier with a 5 BS fleet.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.15 09:10:00 - [615]
 

Originally by: makrish1

You misunderstand the term 'isk faucet'. It's used to describe an inflow isk into the game, rather than a player or a corporation. The only isk faucets in game are missions and rat bounties. All the others are just exchanges of isk between players, and the only isk sinks exist in jump clones, LP store rewards, NPC market goods, and NPC taxes, and they aren't very significant.


You are missing some isk faucet: insurance payout, NPC buy orders and the bounties on NPC in anomalies/complexes.

Until Tyrannis probably insurance payout was the largest isk faucet.
Even after the insurance change it will still be a big isk faucet.

For isk sinks you are forgetting the skillbooks and insurance cost. And the isk sinks you cited are relevant, don't doubt it.

Originally by: makrish1
If missioners leave the game due to no challenge, or an impossible challenge, then demand for plex falls due to the simple fact that they are the only ones (along with miners) who can buy them


And to the big plexes buyers you should add the people that control the sales of moon goo, the successful traders and industrialists, ratters in good systems, scammers and so on.


makrish1
Posted - 2010.06.15 10:02:00 - [616]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: makrish1

You misunderstand the term 'isk faucet'. It's used to describe an inflow isk into the game, rather than a player or a corporation. The only isk faucets in game are missions and rat bounties. All the others are just exchanges of isk between players, and the only isk sinks exist in jump clones, LP store rewards, NPC market goods, and NPC taxes, and they aren't very significant.


You are missing some isk faucet: insurance payout, NPC buy orders and the bounties on NPC in anomalies/complexes.

Until Tyrannis probably insurance payout was the largest isk faucet.
Even after the insurance change it will still be a big isk faucet.

For isk sinks you are forgetting the skillbooks and insurance cost. And the isk sinks you cited are relevant, don't doubt it.

Originally by: makrish1
If missioners leave the game due to no challenge, or an impossible challenge, then demand for plex falls due to the simple fact that they are the only ones (along with miners) who can buy them


And to the big plexes buyers you should add the people that control the sales of moon goo, the successful traders and industrialists, ratters in good systems, scammers and so on.




Thanks for the additions, but my point still stands. A few missioners will leave soon, with a fair few leaving in a few months time when they've managed to solo L4's efficiently. Either way CCP will lose revenue.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.06.15 10:16:00 - [617]
 

I couldn't really care much anymore, having given up carebearing, bit I think CCP might actually end up hurting itself as a company by nerfing missions and putting out stuff like the experimental storyline missions, which are yet more attempts to "lure" or force players in losec/nullsec.

I don't know if nubs emoragequit in any numbers after being pewed in losec, but judging from the reactions, I suppose some of them do. Eve is a pretty hard game on nubs and I often think CCP doesn't really know what it's doing in terms of encouraging new players to pew pew and lose ships like every else.

METAMORPHOSIS71
Posted - 2010.06.15 11:23:00 - [618]
 

ccp is saying that the level 5 being in hi-sec is a bug,so level 4 agents that give low-sec mission from hi-sec must all so be a bug and will need fixing as well,

Fettered Soul
Posted - 2010.06.15 12:02:00 - [619]
 

Originally by: METAMORPHOSIS71
...so level 4 agents that give low-sec mission from hi-sec must all so be a bug and will need fixing as well,

agree Exclamation

Kimbeau Surveryor
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.15 12:03:00 - [620]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
You'll notice that their next remark will always be something like "It's not worth doing in low-sec!", which makes it blindingly obvious that they're only mentioning the 'challenge' to not sound ISK-hungry...
This is the only bit of your otherwise excellent defense of CCP with which I do not agree. "Worth doing" can refer to the ratio of fun to grinding, just as much as to the rate of earning ISK. If there is a high chance that you land yourself with two months of grinding to run one Level 5 mission, that's certainly not worth doing!

Kimbeau Surveryor
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.15 12:12:00 - [621]
 

Edited by: Kimbeau Surveryor on 15/06/2010 12:35:16
Originally by: FuQu Azhole
OK so most of what I read here is a debate about weather or not L5 should be in high sec. I think that's the wrong debate. The debate should be is it fair after 3 years of provided content which people paid for with real money to train specific skills to enjoy to now take away?. I certainly would not have trained all my passive shield skills to 5 if not for L5 missions nor would I have trained cal navy BS to 5 if not for the rattlesnake which I use for L5's only. These skills require real money and time to train. I also would not have spent billions of isk on equipment to make them more profitable which will now certainly be worth much less due to less demand. Also as a side note the whole argument of L5s being a cash cow because 1 person with multiple accounts can make 100M +- per hour should be more accurately stated as multiple paid accounts can split that much money. I personally make about 50 mil per hour per paid account, not that much better than L4's really especially if you consider the time and isk it took to get to that level and the risk of isk loss if something should go wrong.
Also, a 3 year old bug? really? any beginner programmer could write a looping function in 10 minuets to solve that problem ie: if (agentLevel == 5 && missionDestination >= .5){rePullMission()} I mean seriously, how hard could it be?.
Very good point. I too have been focussing my skill training on mission-useful stuff, which is starting to look wasted.

Edit: ...and whenever I look into PvP fits, I find I'm a good few skills short of being able to use them. (Example: T2 guns instead of the expensive T1 faction ones I currently tend to use.) I'll get there in the end, but at the moment there is always something higher priority to train.

Kimbeau Surveryor
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.15 12:29:00 - [622]
 

Edited by: Kimbeau Surveryor on 15/06/2010 12:29:52
Originally by: Misanthra
Free accounts going away (assuming plex buys) not going to hurt ccp.
This is a wrong-think. Plexes are bought for cash. The plex-buyer exchanges rl cash for an object (s)he can trade for ISK. The plex user transfers ISK to the plex buyer (a totally in-game transaction with no net effect on ISK supply). Result, CCP gets more cash, one player loses ISK, another player gains equal amount of ISK. (This has been explained several times in this thread -- please do your homework before posting Rolling Eyes)

Same holds true for illegal ISK buying, except CCP loses out in its cash, so I guess CCP would love to get rid of that trade, or at least turn it into legal plex trading.
Originally by: Kerfira
Only a few players do L5's, and only a few of those will quit.
You are disregarding the depressing effect on the ambitions of those who can not yet run Level 5s, but dream of doing so. Myself amongst them.

Richard Christy
Posted - 2010.06.15 13:06:00 - [623]
 

Originally by: Libin Herobi

Does this apply to - let's say - Chribba?
He's certain one of the oldest players and the amount of veldspar he mines is said to be unimagineable sad.

Doctor Aibolit
Posted - 2010.06.15 13:15:00 - [624]
 

Amaizing. Will CCP consider consumers negative signals?Neutral

P.S. Ok. Lets imagine L5 missions should be nerfed. But why L4 should be nerfed also? Do you consider reward from low-sec L4 VS low-sec L5?

Ori Blake
Posted - 2010.06.15 13:17:00 - [625]
 

Originally by: Kerfira

The payout is part of the problem, but I think it is more a matter of where CCP wants stuff to be. In short, the good stuff is where there is risk!
This is fundamental to EVE's game design...


However, it has been pointed out multiple times that the risk of this is not worth the good stuff. If it was, there's be no qq. People would just get up an adapt.

Quote:

You'll notice that their next remark will always be something like "It's not worth doing in low-sec!", which makes it blindingly obvious that they're only mentioning the 'challenge' to not sound ISK-hungry...


People like the PvE challenge of it, not the PvP if they did in lowsec. Putting it in lowsec adds:

1.Unwanted challenge of a different type (pvP Players)
2. A huge level of financial risk in ship costs, due to highly increased risk of ship destruction due to things having nothing to do with the mission.

I don't think its being dupliticitous. It's the same reason people don't do courier missions or contracts to lowsec or 0.0 in any great numbers, or why so few people like the gallente storyline missions.

Quote:
L5's in high-sec didn't seem to really take off in great numbers until early this year. Most likely CCP saw them taking off, and decided it was time to put a stop to it.


Stats?

Quote:
So? No problem in that really... It is good game design that you have to fight for control of a resource before you can use it.


Not when the fighting takes more energy and drains more resources than the resource is worth. A lot more, honestly. You need a lot of numbers to secure a system above and beyond that just do to the mission in lowsec.

Quote:
No problem in that either... The strong prosper, the weak lives off the leftovers...



Then I would argue CCP needs to stop focusing on designing content only a few "strong" people can do. It's a waste of time, and they should just focus on bug fixes so all can benefit equally. Stuff like this takes dev time and benefits very few players, all for a misguided notion that it will change player behavior in a way CCP wants. The effective change though will just be to obsolete the content for a majority of people that use it.

Again, ISK/LP issues can be fixed by nerfing payout, even if its just restricted to hi-sec missions. This is CCP being stupid.

Crieton
Posted - 2010.06.15 15:18:00 - [626]
 

Hugs and Tissues for all of you.

<3 <3 <3 <3

Psychotic Maniac
Caldari
Head Shrinkers
Posted - 2010.06.15 15:56:00 - [627]
 

CCP there are many good suggestions in this thread. READ THEM cause that is what the players want. not putting them in the game would be total fail.
lose of players(paying customers)=less profit


Woodman57
Posted - 2010.06.15 16:10:00 - [628]
 

I don't really care where level 5 mish are at, but to the folks that say this is a pvp game, why doesn't CCP's ads for this game state that? The ad says do what you want, pursue any field you want, nothing in the ad says anything about having to be a pirate or having to pvp.

oneway89
Posted - 2010.06.15 17:26:00 - [629]
 

Originally by: Kimbeau Surveryor
Edited by: Kimbeau Surveryor on 15/06/2010 12:29:52
Originally by: Misanthra[quote=Kerfira
Only a few players do L5's, and only a few of those will quit.
You are disregarding the depressing effect on the ambitions of those who can not yet run Level 5s, but dream of doing so. Myself amongst them.


I couldn't agree more, the vast majority of the pve community is lv 4 and parialy lv 3 based, this was the big dream that took years to make viable. Now the ceiling of the possibilities for pve is sitting directly on our heads. Even if lv 5's are still viable in low sec the risk reward and the gang nessisary to run them makes them less profitable then lv 4's, so "thats it lv 4's are the most profitable pve in the game and take less skills with less risk, how about that? So, you bored of lv 4's yet? Well that all the pve we got." And thats why the pve populations going to right the floor over this.

Originally by: Misanthra

Free accounts going away (assuming plex buys) not going to hurt ccp. Less non plexing customers emo raging will be replaced with new ones who did not have level 5's in empire and won't miss them to the point of emo rage quit (can't miss what you never had). Or they may go to low sec. Don't have figures....but guessing lv 5 agents still got a few customers. A wise man once said for every husband who won't sleep with his wife, there is a neighbor that will.



What your wise man didn't seem to grasp is "if the husband isen't sleeping with his wish, then who is he sleeping with?". This time next year eve will have alot of competion in the sci-fi mmo market. And trust me, in pve some of the current competion is beating eve pretty bad, nm what coming. We aren't going to be sleeping our wifes when our 20 yr old neigbour next door is begging for our attention, nor is the new guy on the block going to be going to our wife's door.

At this point the pve community is all but starved for new content and this good beating of a nerf isen't getting anyones hope up for the future of eve its alot numbers and $$ for ccp. When i started eve I think I knew a grand total of 2 ppl that had more then one account. Now I think I know all of 2 ppl that don't have more then one account. I would bet a large part of the population growth over the last year or 2, have been secondary accounts. So when you alienate the older established players (particularly pve players, that can afford things) there going to be droping the population that much harder.

But of all the comments I have read, no one person for these nerfs can say one decent aspect it adds to eve. Sure, it slows the lp market down, but all that does is increase inflation of faction stuff. So you pay more, and since lp is only comming from pve your still paying the same ppl anyways. The market will still balance them for there time spent.

Lets be blunt, anyone who is for these nerfs realy doesn't get the long terms effects to the economics or the communit of eve. Making things less accessable or removing them entirely almost never adds value to a game. People who like this just like taking big bites out s*%tsandwedge. And like to sit around and talk about how great s*%tsandwedge tastes. And laugh at anyone who doesen't like s*%tsandwedge. So, once there all gone, you can all agree how great s*%tsandwedge is and forget about it and wait for s*%tsandwedge deluxe to come out in another 5 months. Seriously, at some point if you can't be critical, eventualy you will wake up and realise what your being sold to eat has turned into.


theprintz
Posted - 2010.06.15 18:23:00 - [630]
 

Originally by: Liosa Rearl
Good Work.

Bring it on CCP, i'll take anything the universe throws at me and succeed at it.

To all you whiners out there. Here are some choice things you can take to heart.

ADAPT or DIE.
Go back and play WoW.
Quit now, the universe will be better without you.
When you whine, it makes you look weak, because real men NEVER WHINE. They get up and bloody do it anyways.

Can I have your stuff? All contracts to this toon only.




a lot of eve players must have been playing this wow.at least that's what i can say by reading some of their postings.what made u turn to eve? ur now 18 years old and think that u can make others do what u'd like them to do?or just the brave forum warrior tries to compensate his little age and/or d**k by some meaningless and surely stupid "arguments".
i don't think the l5 nerf is quite an issue but the continuous trend that ccp seems to embrace,meaning telling the people that are paying for their other than honestly advertised game how to play it!
this so called sandbox isn't anymore or is about not to be very soon what eve was like but nothing but a cat's dumping box.how long do u think that new players who,let's say, are invading eve atm will pay their accounts after they see that eve isn't what ccp says it is?and how long will it take for older players to stop playing if they are not allowed to play the way they were in years?
i thought the eve community was much more smarter than the other mmos,starting with ccp, but maybe i was wrong.the last patch i think it was the most stupid play that ccp could do considering all the facts.


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