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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.06.11 17:29:00 - [31]
 

How is the current system different from the Nasdaq or other electronic stock exchanges ?

I think the biggest difference would be the spreads between bid and ask (buy and sell). On a $30 stock you'd probably have spread of 10 cents if that. Thats a third of one percent compared to a 5% to 10% on heavily traded items up to basically nutsy levels whre there aren't any cometitive buyers or sellers who either need the item or are selling not to liquidate but just content to own as a speculative item.

On the Nasdaq People at the same price are queued up (btw.. they are alread queued up in EVE at the same price)

The lowest price gets filled on the nasdaq and even better, if a customer accidently enters a higher number he only pays the lowest price (that should be changed in eve...by default people shouldn't pay more than the lowest offered price on an exchange and you shouldn't need to buy lots bit by bit to get the prices below)

Thre is no cost in changing orders on the Nasdaq AND no charge until an order is filled... people play games taking large blocks slightly off the market on and off the books.

If anything Eve charges too much... there shouldn't be a broker fee until sold.. I should be able to put a megathon on the market and if someon starts under cuting me..or it doesn't sell I should be able to pull it off the market without having paid any fees.. the opposite of what some of you are suggesting.

Aurum Bellator
Posted - 2010.06.11 17:30:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Darthion Illys
Edited by: Darthion Illys on 11/06/2010 14:50:28
The real issue is that the one with the lowest price always get their items sold, regardless of which order they purchase from.

Combine that with a very short cooldown period in between order modifications, and you get the currently annoying-as-hell method of station "trading" in Eve.

Increase the duration between modifying orders, and remove the current function where items are automatically purchased from the cheapest sell order.

Adding a "modification fee" probably wouldn't hurt either.


More good ideas. I wholeheartedly endorse all of the above. I don't think you need any greater resolution than 0.01, even on low value items since the fact that you have so little resolution gives it a unique trading character.

Market order modification cooldown should be 12 hours. If you want to modify in a shorter time period, you have to cancel the order and reseed it. Allow people to buy from whatever order they want. Increase the modification fee to something more than the worthless 100 isk fee as it currently exists.

Problem Solved.

AUB

Aurum Bellator
Posted - 2010.06.11 17:35:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
How is the current system different from the Nasdaq or other electronic stock exchanges ?


Try . . .it isn't a stock exchange?

AUB

Guilty Man
Minmatar
Guilty People
Posted - 2010.06.11 17:46:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Darthion Illys

Increase the duration between modifying orders



I would vote with all my 9000 alts!

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2010.06.11 18:44:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Aurum Bellator
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
How is the current system different from the Nasdaq or other electronic stock exchanges ?


Try . . .it isn't a stock exchange?



EVE's market is more akin to a commodities exchange.

Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:05:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Aurum Bellator
Originally by: Darthion Illys
Edited by: Darthion Illys on 11/06/2010 14:50:28
The real issue is that the one with the lowest price always get their items sold, regardless of which order they purchase from.

Combine that with a very short cooldown period in between order modifications, and you get the currently annoying-as-hell method of station "trading" in Eve.

Increase the duration between modifying orders, and remove the current function where items are automatically purchased from the cheapest sell order.

Adding a "modification fee" probably wouldn't hurt either.


More good ideas. I wholeheartedly endorse all of the above. I don't think you need any greater resolution than 0.01, even on low value items since the fact that you have so little resolution gives it a unique trading character.

Market order modification cooldown should be 12 hours. If you want to modify in a shorter time period, you have to cancel the order and reseed it. Allow people to buy from whatever order they want. Increase the modification fee to something more than the worthless 100 isk fee as it currently exists.

Problem Solved.

AUB


I flood the market with 20 smaller orders, in order to increase the chance of my products moving. So does everyone else. Now when you want to resupply your cap ship fuel, you can do it 100 units at a time, because the new way to beat the competition is to clog up as much of your customer's market screen as possible.

Yea, you've solved the problem about as keenly as the guy who invented internet pop-up ads.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:09:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Guilty Man
Originally by: Darthion Illys

Increase the duration between modifying orders



I would vote with all my 9000 alts!


yeah the guys proposing the changes don't have clue that, far from helping an average guy, they'd hand even more market power over to extremely entrenched long time players. Occasional traders and new guys trying to get into market trading couldn't compete with Power traders who could use a dozen accounts each one to change a price, who have billions of inventory and isk to sit around at different bid points when necessary, who had years to get alt up to 5 broker relations and 5 accounting and sit around in stations to get them standing to further reduces fees if there was a fee on change rule.

I'm not sure what the guys are after exactly ...

Charlemagne
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:10:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Charlemagne on 11/06/2010 20:20:25
Originally by: Dzil

I flood the market with 20 smaller orders, in order to increase the chance of my products moving. So does everyone else. Now when you want to resupply your cap ship fuel, you can do it 100 units at a time, because the new way to beat the competition is to clog up as much of your customer's market screen as possible.

Yea, you've solved the problem about as keenly as the guy who invented internet pop-up ads.



And if you have 20 open order slots available to waste on a single item then you aren't worth worrying about anyway.

Charles

EDIT: fixed quote

Aurum Bellator
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:19:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Guilty Man

I would vote with all my 9000 alts!


Dude, I wish I had the cash to pay for 3,000 accounts!

AUB

Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2010.06.11 19:24:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Dzil on 11/06/2010 19:26:34
Edited by: Dzil on 11/06/2010 19:25:10
Originally by: Charlemagne
Originally by: Dzil

I flood the market with 20 smaller orders, in order to increase the chance of my products moving. So does everyone else. Now when you want to resupply your cap ship fuel, you can do it 100 units at a time, because the new way to beat the competition is to clog up as much of your customer's market screen as possible.

Yea, you've solved the problem about as keenly as the guy who invented internet pop-up ads.



And if you have 20 open order slots available to waste on a single item then you aren't worth worrying about anyway.

Charles


I think the same people that can religiously camp their computers 23/7 to penny isk you could also easily afford 20 orders on a lucrative market. The same folks complaining they can't win the .01 isk game would come back tearful that they can't win the order spam game either.

Edit - nice. I think I finally fixed your misuse of quotes.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.06.11 20:34:00 - [41]
 

If your goal was to have better buy and sell prices ... a tigher spread so you wouldn't feel ripped off, or to work against market collusion...

here is your answer (I don't like it.. it would take away from a fun competitive part of the game):

- Make it easy for anyone to see prices in any region no matter where they were. (again I don't like it)

- Want a step further ? allow you to purchase goods in remote markets without an alt?

- Want a step even further? how about you have a npc delivery service to whisk the good you boughy anywhere in the universe to you?


Information and consolodated markets would narrow the spread allowing you to sell or buy immediately without much frictional cost. It would take alot strategy and preperation out of trading... make it less a game in itself.

BUT... maybe what you really want is to be able to trade (buy and sell for profit-- not conduct commerce which is an entirely different thing which I believe you are confusing with the electronic market) and make a fat spread buy coming up with some way to make a live. real time market instead a turn based game?

Nauplius
Amarr
1st Praetorian Guard
Posted - 2010.06.11 23:59:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
If your goal was to have better buy and sell prices ... a tigher spread so you wouldn't feel ripped off, or to work against market collusion...

here is your answer (I don't like it.. it would take away from a fun competitive part of the game):

- Make it easy for anyone to see prices in any region no matter where they were. (again I don't like it)

- Want a step further ? allow you to purchase goods in remote markets without an alt?

- Want a step even further? how about you have a npc delivery service to whisk the good you boughy anywhere in the universe to you?





No. EVE's comical high-spread 0.01 ISK silliness does not result from any information or delivery problems.

They are instead the result of CCP's order modification timer. That's what is different between EVE and a real world stock or commodity exchange that permits trading with small price increments. Without that timer, traders competing against each other would still quickly bring spreads down it wouldn't matter that the minimum price change available is small if the orders could be updated every few seconds.

But the servers probably couldn't handle that even if CCP wanted them to.

So instead we have a system that permits tiny increments in orders but restricts the frequency with which those orders can be updated. Which is bad design for any kind of exchange, whether it be an auction house or a stock market or whatever. Trading in such small increments doesn't mix well with restricted trade volume.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.06.12 03:45:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Nauplius
No. EVE's comical high-spread 0.01 ISK silliness does not result from any information or delivery problems.

They are instead the result of CCP's order modification timer. That's what is different between EVE and a real world stock or commodity exchange that permits trading with small price increments. Without that timer, traders competing against each other would still quickly bring spreads down it wouldn't matter that the minimum price change available is small if the orders could be updated every few seconds.

But the servers probably couldn't handle that even if CCP wanted them to.

So instead we have a system that permits tiny increments in orders but restricts the frequency with which those orders can be updated. Which is bad design for any kind of exchange, whether it be an auction house or a stock market or whatever. Trading in such small increments doesn't mix well with restricted trade volume.


Well I don't agree with all of that, especially the cause/effect but you do have a real point here. Contrary to the arguments that others have made that the timer should be longer, the waiting time really effect the casual trader more. If he found himslef immediatly undercut, he'd respond again, and if undercut again he'd move the market substantially.


I also don't disagree with the notion that the OP made about some rounder numbers helping with the interface and going down to single digits or cents in unnecesarily cumbersome... close to 1% however was far too large......a 1%..even a tenth of that is too big for a something highly liquid....but we do have a difference of opinion on whther this be a Market like a stock market or more of a sales cooperative.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.06.12 04:49:00 - [44]
 

For practical purposes though , I can pretty much change my prices in things i'm into as quickly as I like.

I'll rarely trade in just one order...especially on the sell side...if something trades 150 units a day through 80 trades, and you want to move 50... people are going to get spooked and cut margins, especiall if they see that the orders is being watched due to its recent update price. Instead, I'd probably have three orders.. one of 7, one of 5.. one of 2...

I can daisy chain them down to update about a minute and a half apart....and I'm pretty tame about that compared to other traders...and I tend to trade in less activie items where the risk of spooking people into dropping margins is a bigger risk than losing some volume by waiting a few minutes for them to maybe leave station, log off their trade alt or just lose interest.

So, I don't think I buy the argument entirely that the delay keeps people from responding.. but it does for some players...especially those that might be most inclined to get frutrated and cut the margin drastically.


RentableMuffin
Posted - 2010.06.12 07:36:00 - [45]
 

when I go to trade there have usually been a few .01'ers a few 1k'ers, and a few 5302'ers,

cba to retype the whole number so I usually just increment the lowest value to have the highest order.

Guilliman R
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.06.12 09:06:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: RentableMuffin
when I go to trade there have usually been a few .01'ers a few 1k'ers, and a few 5302'ers,

cba to retype the whole number so I usually just increment the lowest value to have the highest order.


The 1kers are the worste, they're usually online 24/7 too. I'm competing with one guy that always undercuts to 000.52 ALWAYS. Even if I put for example 199000.51 (under his 199000.52) he'll change it to 198000.52

I'm helbent in destroying any market he's in because I can afford it. Just to **** him off and make him leave. He also logs in 5 times a minute. Donno why

Darthion Illys
Amarr
Tyrans d'Or
Tyrans d'0r
Posted - 2010.06.12 11:40:00 - [47]
 

Lol.. wait, what?

Some of you guys have your oh-so-godly station trading heads so far up your asses that you haven't seen sunshine since Whitney Houston was a walking corpse.

If you remove the "automatically sold from lowest sell order", the need to update your orders every so frequently isn't as big. You probably wouldn't even have to make .01 order changes, since, frankly... on the vast majority of items, no one gives a **** if they pay an extra .01 ISK.

Secondly... anyone who would actually waste 20+ order slots is a moron. I mean... what are you going to do? Split your 50k Morphite stock into 20 x 2500? And you do realize, at the same time, that Morphite, for example, is usually purchased at an average quantity of between 15000-30000 from sell orders, right?

The guy who would use obscene amounts of alts, to accomplish the same thing, is just as much of a fool. I'd rather spend my time watching donkey **** than waste it on micro-managing 3 different accounts just so that I can keep up a .01 isk advantage.

But still... it doesn't really matter. The big problem is that items are sold from the lowest sell order, no matter what order the item is purchased from.

Fix that, and it might not even be necessary to implement a longer cooldown.

But you keyboard warriors already know all that, right?

Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari
Elder Tribes
Posted - 2010.06.12 14:06:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Darthion Illys
Lol.. wait, what?

Some of you guys have your oh-so-godly station trading heads so far up your asses that you haven't seen sunshine since Whitney Houston was a walking corpse.

If you remove the "automatically sold from lowest sell order", the need to update your orders every so frequently isn't as big. You probably wouldn't even have to make .01 order changes, since, frankly... on the vast majority of items, no one gives a **** if they pay an extra .01 ISK.

Secondly... anyone who would actually waste 20+ order slots is a moron. I mean... what are you going to do? Split your 50k Morphite stock into 20 x 2500? And you do realize, at the same time, that Morphite, for example, is usually purchased at an average quantity of between 15000-30000 from sell orders, right?

The guy who would use obscene amounts of alts, to accomplish the same thing, is just as much of a fool. I'd rather spend my time watching donkey **** than waste it on micro-managing 3 different accounts just so that I can keep up a .01 isk advantage.

But still... it doesn't really matter. The big problem is that items are sold from the lowest sell order, no matter what order the item is purchased from.

Fix that, and it might not even be necessary to implement a longer cooldown.

But you keyboard warriors already know all that, right?


Show me on the doll where the evil undercutter touched you.

rufeno
Posted - 2010.06.12 15:00:00 - [49]
 

I didn't read everything.

but there's another solution that could easely solve this problem: Quality of item.

instead of having named version of any item, implement a quality grade to those item that will modify the stats accordingly. Those quality could be settled in the manifacturing department.

for ammo's and such, it would mean more precision/flight time.

for module, they would get "used" and loose quality overtime.

this way, you will not try to stay on top, you will aim for a ratio of isk/quality.

that kind of systeme would be huge to implement, so I don't think we'll ever see this..

I guess we'll be stuck with the 0.01 isk cutters (which I am part of, btw, and don't mind at all..)

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.12 16:02:00 - [50]
 

Item quality has been proposed before; it increases the size of the database and add extra workload on the servers, which must now keep track of what quality ammo is being shot out of every gun. I don't think we'll ever see it.

CCP may decided to nerf Jita by implementing the 1% thing though. Or 5 minute wait time between changing orders (much like the forums). Because anything that reduces Jita lag is good, as far as they're concerned. Yes, this would kill the 5-second 0.01 isk daytrading game. Ultimately, it probably depends on what percentage of the server population you guys are vs. what percentage of lag the change would save.

rufeno
Posted - 2010.06.12 20:49:00 - [51]
 

yeah I said we'll probably never see it. ;)

btw, there's already a 5 minute timer between change to order.

or maybe you mean between any order change, not just a specific item?

anyway, back to topic: what's the difference between undercutting by 0.01 and 1 isk? you still get on top, and wont sell any faster anyway. (speaking of item 50 isk+ of course..)


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