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Jaggati Khan
Posted - 2010.06.09 20:00:00 - [1]
 

ok youve heard the term before but im askin c&p how its possible to harrass alliances like the nc/IT without being totally overwhelmed?
In previous conflicts this typoe of war has been carried out by smaller amounts of combatants against large forces usually harrassing (military term for ambushes etc against light targets such as convoys, supply lines, see also terrorism) however the guerillas do not declare war, nor can you see them in a local chat window - which brings me to only one conclusion - this type of warfare is unheard of in eve?

Danny Lonnegan
Caldari
United Amarr Templar Legion
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.06.09 20:29:00 - [2]
 

Small gangs to hunt and kill carebears. AFK cloakers. Black ops bombers if you have enough SB pilots and a few guys with black ops skills (not hard to find in a decent sized corp/alliance). Ninja POS reinforcing if you've got the numbers and, preferably, a favorable time zone alignment. Wardecs to hunt traders and mission-runners in Empire. Hotdrop traps (though I guess it's debatable if it's "guerrilla warfare" if caps are involved).

Now, how effective will these be? Depends mostly on three factors: the skill of your guys, the skill and organization of your target, and their overall morale. Obviously, you have to be good at what you do. If you suck at small gangs or bombers, all you're going to do is pad their killboard. Conversely, if their carebears are smart--flying in groups, watching directional, staying away from Jita--or your target is organized enough to get PVPers onto the field in a hurry, you won't be very effective. Morale is the X-factor; a corp or alliance with high morale will take a lot of losses and hold together, while one with bad morale can crack under relatively little pressure. Most corps/alliances are somewhere in between. Some will hold up well in the face of a lot of small losses but collapse after one catastrophic battle; others can weather capital losses but fall apart after a month of solo Drake ganks. Try to avoid losing fights--people are a lot more willing to die if they're getting kills, too.

You can basically failscade any alliance just by keeping them spinning their ships (and dying every time they try to undock) for long enough. Obviously, above a certain size this is pretty much impossible without resorting to large-scale warfare; nobody's going to keep, say, Atlas docked up with small roving gangs. Guerrilla warfare against an entire coalition won't work. But it can work well against smaller corps and alliances--even those which are members of larger coalitions. You can detach and failscade renters and minor coalition members, weakening coalitions around the edges.

captain foivos
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:02:00 - [3]
 

It's pretty darn hard to use effective guerrilla tactics. Stealth bombers work (if you're rich enough to lose plenty, as you will in 0.0 thanks to the inevitable gatecamps, bad luck, and wear-and-tear that inevitably will take place) unless your target is smart. Simply harassing an alliance (Northern Coalition is, in fact, a coalition) by itself is doable. Trying to take down an empire using solely stealth bombers is nigh impossible. However, trying to take down an empire with large capital fleets, utilizing stealth bombers to disrupt enemy activities, is quite workable.

Danny Lonnegan
Caldari
United Amarr Templar Legion
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:24:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Danny Lonnegan on 09/06/2010 21:24:38
Originally by: captain foivos
It's pretty darn hard to use effective guerrilla tactics. Stealth bombers work (if you're rich enough to lose plenty, as you will in 0.0 thanks to the inevitable gatecamps, bad luck, and wear-and-tear that inevitably will take place) unless your target is smart. Simply harassing an alliance (Northern Coalition is, in fact, a coalition) by itself is doable. Trying to take down an empire using solely stealth bombers is nigh impossible. However, trying to take down an empire with large capital fleets, utilizing stealth bombers to disrupt enemy activities, is quite workable.
I'll partially disagree with this. Obviously doing guerrilla warfare takes more skill than flying around in blobs, and it's a lot harder if your targets aren't morons, but it's not that difficult, and there's a lot of morons out there.

A lot depends on the attitude of your target. I've seen people respond to guerrilla tactics by sitting in station and pouting, or they refuse to change their tactics and whine when their solo retrievers and Drakes keep getting popped. And then I've seen people respond with "Hey guys, we've been wardecced! Everybody grab your Rifters! We can has pews nao!" Mostly I've seen people try to adapt while still making money. I'll say it's a lot easier for the defender in null; it's harder to pull off guerrilla warfare when the other guy has his carebearing systems permanently bubble camped, an intel network is reporting your every move, and your neutral scouts are shot on sight (though the availability of bombs makes up for a big chunk of that).

Griznatle
Caldari
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:24:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Griznatle on 09/06/2010 21:25:07
Both the above replies are completly true, however I believe the newer (ish) wormhole addition to eve allows ships to go from point a to b directly is pretty awesome.
For instance, I found a way to get into a macro alliance ratting area in my vaga without setting off the alarms of the gatecamps, killed some ravens. Only way this was possible was due to the direct wormhole that pulls you from point a to b. You can do a similar tactic by going before downtime into a known ratting area, log off in space and log in later and start harassing. I use small gang tactics in Amamake 3-1 to counter failblobs.

Danny Lonnegan
Caldari
United Amarr Templar Legion
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:37:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Griznatle
Edited by: Griznatle on 09/06/2010 21:25:07
Both the above replies are completly true, however I believe the newer (ish) wormhole addition to eve allows ships to go from point a to b directly is pretty awesome.
For instance, I found a way to get into a macro alliance ratting area in my vaga without setting off the alarms of the gatecamps, killed some ravens. Only way this was possible was due to the direct wormhole that pulls you from point a to b. You can do a similar tactic by going before downtime into a known ratting area, log off in space and log in later and start harassing. I use small gang tactics in Amamake 3-1 to counter failblobs.
I hadn't considered wormholes, probably because they're so random (unless they're less random then I think; I confess I have very little experience with wormholes in general).

Having been a victim of logon traps, I can attest to their effectiveness. Laughing

I would also say not to underestimate the power of an AFK cloak. Just get in system with something cloaky and hide in a safe spot. It grinds on people's nerves; you can be at work, or watching TV, or whatever, and every carebear in the system is flogging his directional every fifteen seconds. Once in a while, come back to your screen, open your own directional, and see if there's anyone alone in a belt or a plex. If they are, that's your chance to teach them a helpful lesson about the value flying in groups...or perhaps why you should probably run away if a recon decloaks at 30km.

Ran Khanon
Amarr
Swords Horses and Heavy Metal
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:43:00 - [7]
 

You need a Navy Issue Mega for real guerilla warfare.



StainLessStealRat
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.06.10 01:21:00 - [8]
 

More than Possible.

Look at Burn edens Kill board they are the best at this along with Panda/GK who have been harrasing Fountain for a long time now with great success.

You just need skilled pilots and patiance.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2010.06.10 01:43:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer on 10/06/2010 01:45:58
What the OP refers to is generally known as "asymmetric warfare".

The real world has endless examples from which to draw upon. Let's just say that when the US drops a million dollar bomb on a forty dollar tent, not counting the cost of fielding the aircraft, the crew, ground repairs, etc, we know who the real winner is.

THIS is the key to asymmetric or 4th Generation Warfare. Make your enemy spend a lot of money and time going out of their way to come after you, while minimizing your losses and having no overhead.

I would recommend looking up the writings of William S. Lind to get a good idea of what 4GW is all about and how there is yet to be a time when a state force manages to defeat a non-state force. Here is a good start.

And to do it in this game would require some very unconventional methods.




Jaggati Khan
Posted - 2010.06.10 11:18:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Jaggati Khan on 10/06/2010 11:21:30
Originally by: Danny Lonnegan
there's a lot of morons out there.


lol true

lookin up asymmetric warfare now Very Happy

ISK1machine
Posted - 2010.06.10 12:47:00 - [11]
 

1)grab your heaviest pills,you will definatelly need those if you are planning to sit cloaked for hours and hours doing nothing.
2)Find a good role play reason iot do this for more than an afternoon.You might want to selfproclaim yourself a hero etc.
3)You are most definatelly to win.Even if you suffer some losses in the beggining you will eventually learn.Also do not expect your targets to bother alot after a certain point.There is a certain level of stupidity wich only few can follow you there.

I only did the cloak thing for an afternoon.I didnt managed to hit anything expect the nerves of the locals.In addition to the other things the other posters said,i enjoyed dropping combat scanner probes and then going afk.Oh yeah this is a winner

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2010.06.10 13:23:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 10/06/2010 13:23:24
DELETED

Mark Hadden
Amarr
Endstati0n
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.06.10 15:16:00 - [13]
 

my experience is the gank cloaker tactic only works for a short time, after few kills you will be prominent in the intel and noone will be ratting anymore with you in local.

The afk cloaker tactic is overrated IMO, the more effective on is begin scanning worthy anomalies, warp there and log, once that certain awareness level is reached. Then log in later back and have a kill, sometimes change to the adjacent system, sit there, log out/log in, look for people in anomalies, go back to another system etc.

Unpredictability is the key for survival/success. They wont set up countergangs for you every time you login, if they cant predict where you go and when you will do it.

The repeated warping back to POS when you log harass the carebears a lot more than just an afk cloaker you know he is there.

Capita List
Posted - 2010.06.10 15:42:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Capita List on 10/06/2010 15:53:42
Edited by: Capita List on 10/06/2010 15:50:11
Seems like asymmetric warfare would be very difficult to pull off without some very lucky WH placement for your offensive. Of course, given the element of suprise and a very un-prepared opponent, you could do a lot of damage, but you're talking about harassing very seasoned pilots in big alliances with almost infinite resources to spend (comparatively).

What makes this work IRL? Well, if you take a look at where billion dollar war efforts are failing to squash small militia forces, they're almost always in the locality of the small militia and in a sensetive area where total warfare is either restricted or far enough from logistical support that a large engagement is nearly impossible: ie. the moutains between the Paki-Afghan border. A huge troop commitment -could- be made there, but the logistical nightmare of keeping even a moderate military presence from a distance is staggering.

Conversely, you're proposing an asymmetric offenseive into enemy held territory. While this isn't without historical preseident, ie. a few thousand turks parading across the mid-east and europe in the 13th century, the comparison is pretty weak for EVE. Without going into too much detail, the logistics of defense in a null empire are simple. There is very little strain for keeping a small number of critical gates locked down. Intel is also very easy to come by. In short: you're deprived of suprise, you cannot force a number of small losses, and once you commit, you're probably stuck with no place to hide and plot another attack.

I've made several years worth of forrays into heavily defended null space. While some of them bring a short-term victory, it's very, very seldom that you don't end up loosing ground almost immidiately unless your opponent disregards your minor intrusion and allows several more attacks to be carried out. Basically, you've got to get in while logistical grunt-work is being carried out, destroy and disrupt it as much as possible, and then vanish just as quickly as you came. You will also require multipul points of entry from which to launch these attacks as changes in the defensive position of the enemy will mimic your movement pattens quickly (since intel is so easy to come by for well-established null alliances).

Not an impossible feat by any means, but it would take truly dogged effort and dedication to break down even a moderately healthy alliance without a serious boon from a defector or otherwise miraculous advantage. My small corp has succeeded in keeping some much larger corps and alliances from over-extending their territory, but we've never had any success when we got greedy ourselves and went for more ambitious targets. As I said, you can draw plenty of parallels from military history and present military actions, but EVE presents a very unique battlefield with it's own stratiegic hurdles.


 

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