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blankseplocked Calll for a "Missioner Strike"
 
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Zartrader
Posted - 2010.06.08 09:11:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Zartrader on 08/06/2010 09:13:50

Originally by: Madame Currie
Originally by: Akita T

So just to drive this thing home, again, PvP is _NOT_ an ISK sink.


Sorry didn't get that you narrowed your view to the moment the ship is destroyed.

For me the term is a little broader. And if you take all costs into account, isk is leaving the game, no question. Please read my post again, if you don't get it.

It is funny that people combating that statement, mention the next line, that they are ratting to cover the losses ;)






You can't take a broad view as ISK is ISK. You cannot include it in materials. It's like saying the cash in my pocket is a car. I can say it as much as I like, it won't make it true. In MMORPG's with a closed economy it's a crucial distinction and changes how the game economy will react to a given event.

They are ratting to cover their losses but the money they spend is NOT leaving the game, its being transferred to another player. They personally have less ISK but someone else has more ISK, it's simply a transfer.

Madame Currie
Posted - 2010.06.08 09:13:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Zartrader

You can't take a broad view as ISK is ISK. You cannot include it in materials. It's like saying the cash in my pocket is a car. I can say it as much as I like, it won't make it true.


Well, I get your point (which in it self is valid), and notice that you didn't get mine. So well, end of discussion as far as I am concerned.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.08 09:13:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Madame Currie
With the dummy argument load balancing, ccp just f***d up not only the best 0.5 areas,
Not really, no. It's been the way it has always been and doesn't send you anywhere particularly gruesome.
Quote:
but also the only viable team thing you could do in high (l5).
Lolno. Oh and have you tried doing L5s in lowsec as a team? Works great.
Quote:
Since you either have to be a pirate, brain dead or a ccp game designer to think that missions in low are a viable option to make isk.
…or you have to do it as a team. It works wonders. Try it.
Quote:
Unfortunately it will take ages before ccp will fix this error, unless of cause we let the servers crash.
1. It was not an error.
2. Intentionally trying to crash the servers will get you a nice not-in-EVE-vacation.
3. The whole point of the change is that your plan will not work.
Quote:
Please only do missions in the mission hubs for a week starting June 10th
I'm already in my 0.5 hub, doing just fine thankyouverymuch.

Oh, and while others have already pointed this out, I like to drum the message home:
Quote:
you are aware, that missioning, ratting and npc buy orders are the only means, that add isk to the eve economy? […] well, the moment ship cost + module costs + ammunition costs + insurance cost < insurance payout + dropped modules + salvage + ( potential lp in FW)

isk is leaving the eve economy.
No. That's not how an ISK sink works. Let's go through your items and defined them in terms of ISK sinks:

Ship cost = the installation cost of the BP (0 if you do it at a POS).
Module cost = the installation costs of the BPs (0 if you do it at a POS).
Ammunition cost = the installation cost of the BP (0 if you do it at a POS).
Trade cost = 0.5–1% of the item market price.
LP cost = interesting but…

…not that any of these are ISK sinks for PvP — they're the (minute) ISK sinks connected to manufacturing and transfer of ownership. Also, the destruction or survival of modules makes no difference to the ISK supply — they're item sinks and/or another method of transferring ownership.

Finally, we have:
Insurance cost = 30% of the insurance fee (thus forcibly lower than the payout).

Even with your logic, you're trying to say that the 70% insurance payout (after insurance cost is subtracted) is less than the 0 ISK sink for production, and the 1% sink of the market price. In other words, the payout of premium insurance must be some 1.43% of the price the whole package is sold for. A 500Mil setup must pay ~7M with premium insurance for this to be true.

But again, that's not really an accurate way of looking at things — you're adding in unrelated ISK sinks that would have happened with or without the combat taking place. If we just look at combat as a separate activity, that 70% payout has to be less than 0, because there are no ISK sinks in the combat itself. In other words, combat is an ISK faucet. Always.

eliminator2
Gallente
Vindicated Blast.
Posted - 2010.06.08 09:16:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Madame Currie
Originally by: Akita T

So just to drive this thing home, again, PvP is _NOT_ an ISK sink.


Sorry didn't get that you narrowed your view to the moment the ship is destroyed.

For me the term is a little broader. And if you take all costs into account, isk is leaving the game, no question. Please read my post again, if you don't get it.

It is funny that people combating that statement, mention the next line, that they are ratting to cover the losses ;)






i mission with my alt pvp with my main I LOOSE NOTHING allso mine with other alt which builds me mods and ships so yea again i loose nothin :p

Zartrader
Posted - 2010.06.08 09:17:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Madame Currie
Originally by: Zartrader

You can't take a broad view as ISK is ISK. You cannot include it in materials. It's like saying the cash in my pocket is a car. I can say it as much as I like, it won't make it true.


Well, I get your point (which in it self is valid), and notice that you didn't get mine. So well, end of discussion as far as I am concerned.


I got your point and if you said 'assets' instead of ISK I would have been fine with it but you insisted on saying 'ISK' I know it seems to be nit picking but it's a crucial difference when game mechanics are involved.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.06.08 09:22:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 08/06/2010 09:48:26

Originally by: Madame Currie
Sorry didn't get that you narrowed your view to the moment the ship is destroyed. For me the term is a little broader. And if you take all costs into account, isk is leaving the game, no question. Please read my post again, if you don't get it.

I already agreed that it's a "negative sum" thing, that more "value" is destroyed than ISK gets created, but it's still not an ISK sink.

There's no "broader definition" of an ISK sink. There is only one definition for it : an ISK sink is when ISK gets DESTROYED. What you describe there is not called an ISK sink.
What you are describing there is reduced net value, in the form of destroyed ASSETS. Not destroyed ISK. NOT an ISK sink. ISK is _NOT_ leaving the game when ships get blown up. Not a single ISK cent is leaving the game because your ship has blown up. ISK gets created when ships blow up.

If the game would be reset right now and everybody would get just a random shuttle blueprint and their usual 5000.00 ISK to start with and every last NPC and every last NPC agent was removed from the game, so there would be no ratting, no plexing, no missioning and nothing else of the kind, ISK would still get created, and would start accumulating the same way it does now, albeit slower.


Mission-runners might be one of the largest sources of ISK in EVE, with ratters close behind, but PvP (more precisely, the insurance system) also is an ISK source. It's not such a large source as it was before now that Tyrannis arrived, but as long as insurance pays out ANY amount of ISK, no matter how small, PvP will remain an ISK source. NOT an ISK sink.

Quote:
isk is leaving the game, no question.

Let's try this again, practical example time, heavily simplified.
Let's take a hypothetical ship that "eats up" 2 mil tritanium and nothing else to build, and let's say the platinum payout is 5 mil ISK (base no-premium payout 2 mil ISK).
Let's also say there's 100 mil tritanium and 200 mil ISK in the game.
You build one of those hypothetical ships. There's now 98 mil tritanium and 200 mil ISK in the game (minus some token sum you paid for the manufacture line).
You now BLOW UP that ship, without insuring it. There are now 98 mil tritanium and 202 mil ISK in the game.
ISK IS NOT LEAVING THE GAME, AND THERE IS NOTHING UNCERTAIN ABOUT THAT. ISK is actually entering the game.
Assets are leaving the game, sure, but ISK isn't. Assets may be _worth_ ISK, but they _aren't_ ISK.

Dipluz
Caldari
Notorious Legion
Posted - 2010.06.08 09:56:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Dipluz on 08/06/2010 10:00:13
Originally by: Madame Currie
Originally by: Emperor Cheney

edit to add: of course, paying for the insurance initially is an ISK sink. And if payouts, total, are less than insurance fees, that would also be an ISK sink. But I really, really, really doubt that's the case. PEND insurance always has and always will be the worst run business in New Eden.


well, the moment ship cost + module costs + ammunition costs + insurance cost < insurance payout + dropped modules + salvage + ( potential lp in FW)
isk is leaving the eve economy.

So yes pvp is a isk sink


no pvp is not a isk sink, it makes the economy blurish baecuse it sets a value on ships and equipment beacuse it creates a constant demand. I think you need to take a proper course in economy and learn difference between different factors of economy before u start making idiot posts on forums so u get flamed.

Missions isnt the only isk contributor to the economy beacuse u totally forget mining ( creates money out of nowhere), ratting in belts and plexes ( creates money out of nowhere).

Moon mining creates money out of nowhere, now PI will too, it creates goods we need out of nowhere.

edit 1: insurance too creates a set amount of isk based on value! theres more factors to economy than plain currency!

David Grogan
Gallente
The Motley Crew Reborn
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2010.06.08 09:58:00 - [38]
 

ill join u on strike if u pay me 1bil isk Laughing

TheCrazyT
Posted - 2010.06.08 10:01:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: TheCrazyT on 08/06/2010 10:06:00
Edited by: TheCrazyT on 08/06/2010 10:02:28
Originally by: Dipluz
u totally forget mining ( creates money out of nowhere)

Moon mining creates money out of nowhere, now PI will too, it creates goods we need out of nowhere.



Thats not right ... someone needs to buy the stuff you are mining ... it does not add isk to the game.
(bounty for npc's, insurance, etc. does)

Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network
Dignitas.
Posted - 2010.06.08 10:05:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Madame Currie
you are aware, that missioning, ratting and npc buy orders are the only means, that add isk to the eve economy?


Not sure if serious... ugh

BIZZAROSTORMY
Posted - 2010.06.08 10:15:00 - [41]
 

Confirming I am available as Scab labour.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.08 10:17:00 - [42]
 

Quote:

Well, not asking not to mission, but to mission in one of the mission hubs (which you will do soon anyhow, since the low missions are more annoying than ninjas (which are less common now, that they nerved loot too)). It is just speeding up a process that was started with this change anyhow.



As I suspected, you don't get it.

You can move 1,000,000 pilots in 1 hub and all you'll get is it'll re-distribute them in concentrical circles centered around the hub.
To even hope to get something like you want, you'd need to know about interference waves and how to play against the system by having people organized in certain patterns and ready to all take a mission at the same time.
All you would achieve 1+ nodes crashing at best, and a ban.
Not going to happen.

Dipluz
Caldari
Notorious Legion
Posted - 2010.06.08 10:23:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: TheCrazyT
Edited by: TheCrazyT on 08/06/2010 10:06:00
Edited by: TheCrazyT on 08/06/2010 10:02:28
Originally by: Dipluz
u totally forget mining ( creates money out of nowhere)

Moon mining creates money out of nowhere, now PI will too, it creates goods we need out of nowhere.



Thats not right ... someone needs to buy the stuff you are mining ... it does not add isk to the game.
(bounty for npc's, insurance, etc. does)


yes it does beacuse u need the minerals to build anything in the game thats why. it creates a good that has a value. without it everything stops up too beacuse nothing will ever be made if u dont exchange theese minerals

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2010.06.08 10:25:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Madame Currie
Originally by: Emperor Cheney

edit to add: of course, paying for the insurance initially is an ISK sink. And if payouts, total, are less than insurance fees, that would also be an ISK sink. But I really, really, really doubt that's the case. PEND insurance always has and always will be the worst run business in New Eden.


well, the moment ship cost + module costs + ammunition costs + insurance cost < insurance payout + dropped modules + salvage + ( potential lp in FW)
isk is leaving the eve economy.

So yes pvp is a isk sink


When you buy ships, ammo, modules, and so on, the ISK goes to another player. It is still in the economy. It still exists.

When you spend on insurance, the ISK disappears entirely. No player holds that ISK anymore. This is what is properly termed an "ISK sink."

When your ship pops and PEND pays out, that ISK appears out of nowhere. ISK that did not exist, does.


You are continually confusing personal player finances with the economy as a whole. You can lose all your ISK, but as long as that isk has gone to other players, there has been zero ISK sink occurring.

Darthion Illys
Amarr
Tyrans d'Or
Tyrans d'0r
Posted - 2010.06.08 10:27:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Madame Currie
Edited by: Madame Currie on 08/06/2010 08:09:42
Originally by: Malcanis

You forgot insurance. So PvP adds quite a bit as well tyvm.


Not true any more. Since tyranis, you will always loose more than you win. So pvp is just an isk sink.


Nope. The isk you spend on your ship, and its modules, doesn't go to NPC orders (or "out" of the system). It goes to another player, which means that the ISK from the ship cost remains, while the insurance is still additional ISK into the system.

The only thing that change was the amount of ISK coming into the system through insurance (due to the extent of insurance fraud, and the decreased insurance payout).

I'm 5particus
Minmatar
REV0LTING
Posted - 2010.06.08 11:20:00 - [46]
 


So the good times have past, get used to it and get a grip, level 5 missions where seriously out of balance with regard to the rewards.

As for the risk of low sec, don't use ships pimped with a billion isk of officer mods and enjoy the excitement.

Kendon Riddick
Posted - 2010.06.08 11:23:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Kendon riddick on 08/06/2010 11:24:38
If you do not want the extra isk available doing the high quality lvl 4/5 agents in low sec because you do not want to risk your stuff. Then dont.

This thread is unessery and stupid.

also, loading up the servers deliberatly to crash the service for the rest of the players so CCP react, is terrorism.

Madame Currie
Posted - 2010.06.08 11:36:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Kendon riddick

This thread is unessery and stupid.
also, loading up the servers deliberatly to crash the service for the rest of the players so CCP react, is terrorism.



Well, it addresses mission runners, neither pirates, nore alliance borg drones, nore brain dead.

Beside it does not call for anything, that will not happen naturally, only tries to cut the time of suffering.

Discrodia
Gallente
Symbiosis International
Moose Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.08 11:36:00 - [49]
 

I predict that if all the mission runners move to hubs, we will soon see a gargantuan influx of ninja salvager whine threads.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.08 11:41:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Dipluz
Originally by: TheCrazyT
Originally by: Dipluz
u totally forget mining ( creates money out of nowhere)Moon mining creates money out of nowhere, now PI will too, it creates goods we need out of nowhere.
Thats not right ... someone needs to buy the stuff you are mining ... it does not add isk to the game.
(bounty for npc's, insurance, etc. does)
yes it does beacuse u need the minerals to build anything in the game thats why. it creates a good that has a value. without it everything stops up too beacuse nothing will ever be made if u dont exchange theese minerals
Yes, but it doesn't create money, which is something rather different from "value". You're doing roughly the same mistake as Currie in confusing the two. Neither mining, moon mining or PI creates money — they create items that can be exchange for money. That money is created elsewhere.

In fact, moon mining and PI both destroy money (act as ISK sinks) because you need to pay NPC:s for the privilege of (and/or getting the required tools for) extracting the moon/planet-goo.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.06.08 17:05:00 - [51]
 

OP, what on giods green earth are you talking about. we run team ops in hisec and lowsec all the time.

Its not that you cant do it, its that you dont want to share. take your greedy ass back to stormwind city and buy gold on ebay, thats all you are good for.

ps. you were probably a 55 monk on guild wars who quit after they finally nerfed the infinite gold faucet.

pss people like you ruin the game for new players when they read the filth you spew.

oolk
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.06.08 17:13:00 - [52]
 

argh...wall of texts and quotes...

What's this thread about?

Oh yeah,he is not really callign for a strike but more for a cyber-terrorist attack...crashing the node in hubs all over eve

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.06.08 17:18:00 - [53]
 

OMGWTF is the OP talking about here?!?!?!?!?!? Do us all a favor here S-T-F-U and G-T-F-O with your garbage. Your giving "real missioners" a bad name. Go back to gold farming in W-O-W you noob!



TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.09 16:45:00 - [54]
 

OP is dumb imo, also you can do missions in unscannable t3's in low sec, done it myself, how about you try.

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2010.06.09 16:52:00 - [55]
 

Been running missions on and off since 2004.

lvl 5's should be in low sec. Period.

You have a simple choice. Either adapt to the fact that the lvl 5's are in low sec and some agents send you to low sec or find another agent.

If you want a carefrfee one person shooter EVE isn't the game for you anyways.

Calling for a "strike" simply because you refuse to adapt says more about you.


TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.09 16:57:00 - [56]
 

Here's an idea, how about you go to the dark world of null sec and try for fortune there, no walls, no boundarys.

Fumen
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.06.09 21:42:00 - [57]
 

I laugh at your carebear tears. Missioning hasn't turned into crap, only the sheeple that follow each other around in a circle.


Cthulhu F'taghn
Sniggerdly
Posted - 2010.06.09 23:06:00 - [58]
 

Look at all the internet economists with their e-degrees from wikipedia clawing at someone's throat because he used the wrong term.

I have a term for you; Autofellatio.


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