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Madame Currie
Posted - 2010.06.08 07:07:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Madame Currie on 08/06/2010 07:29:37
With the dummy argument load balancing, ccp just f***d up not only the best 0.5 areas, but also the only viable team thing you could do in high (l5).
Since you either have to be a pirate, brain dead or a ccp game designer to think that missions in low are a viable option to make isk.

Unfortunately it will take ages before ccp will fix this error, unless of cause we let the servers crash.

So I call up any missioner to do what seems to be CCP's intention anyhow. Please only do missions in the mission hubs for a week starting June 10th, just to show how grateful we are for the latest change. With some luck the overloading servers annoy ccp to a point that they actually take back that ill advised routing to low and make eve a better place again.

ghosttr
Amarr
ARK-CORP
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.06.08 07:08:00 - [2]
 

Stuffs, can I haz?

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2010.06.08 07:09:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Madame Currie
With the dummy argument load balancing, ccp just f***d up not only the best 0.5 areas, but also the only viable team thing you could do in high (l5).
Since you either have to be a pirate, brain dead or a ccp game designer to think that missions in low are a viable option to make isk.

Unfortunately it will take ages before ccp will fix this error, unless of cause we let the servers crash.

So I call up any missioner to do what seems to be CCP's intention anyhow. Please only do missions in the mission hubs for a week starting June 10th, just to show how grateful we are for the latest change. With some luck the overloading servers annoy ccp to a point that they actually take back that ill advised routing to low and make eve a better place again.

You, mindless Denizen & overall accepted Drone, are the reason the rest of us who care, cannot have nice things.

Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.06.08 07:10:00 - [4]
 

Send me 100 mil and I'll think about it. Cool

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.06.08 07:17:00 - [5]
 

I don't think that missioners are cohesive enough group to give a **** about things like this. The solidarity necessary to make a significant impact just isn't there. Most of them aren't personally afffected by this and some who are don't make a big deal out of it. For them it is too much trouble for too little gain, so they won't do it, as evidenced by your own complaints too.

Madame Currie
Posted - 2010.06.08 07:17:00 - [6]
 



You, mindless Denizen & overall accepted Drone, are the reason the rest of us who care, cannot have nice things.


you are aware, that missioning, ratting and npc buy orders are the only means, that add isk to the eve economy?

Any other professions just cannibalize on this sources.

Well, did not await a well thought answer anyhow ;)


Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.08 07:20:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 08/06/2010 07:21:02
It's not like there aren't several other photocopy threads including petitions and whatsnot.

I have experimented with the new mechanics, to get sent to low sec I had to be in a system with > 160 people in local (the number is probably not fixed and is calculated by some load computed moving average).

Now, getting sent in low sec is a random chance due to the new load balancing mechanism.
It's a new mechanism not dissimilar than the mechanism giving you:

- drone missions instead of AE or WC
- kill faction missions
- courier missions even at a combat agent


It's a random number generator. Something similar to "rays" expanding from the mission hub outwards.
When there are too many people in local, sometimes it sends you to system A, sometimes to system B, sometimes to system C (2 jumps away), sometimes to system D (low sec).

I get sent about 1 time out of 10, I put it in the same category of bad drone missions, faction missions and courier missions and deal with it.
If you chose (no one pushed you, rite?) a system with 600 in local, then your bad. Choose better in the future.

Or use this incredible trick: take a mission to the L4 agent in the nearby system. I am getting some nice LP BPCs off a third nearby agent at the same time.


For once in your life, do like everyone else in EvE have to do since 2003: deal with it.

Musical Fist
Gallente
NAP Coalition
Posted - 2010.06.08 07:22:00 - [8]
 

I am literally stopping mission running thanks to this thread, thanks op you opened my eyes Rolling Eyes

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.08 07:24:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
I don't think that missioners are cohesive enough group to give a **** about things like this. The solidarity necessary to make a significant impact just isn't there. Most of them aren't personally afffected by this and some who are don't make a big deal out of it. For them it is too much trouble for too little gain, so they won't do it, as evidenced by your own complaints too.

They arent cohesive and are way too large to do a strike, yet despite the confusing title, that isnt whats asked for here.

Quote:
Please only do missions in the mission hubs for a week starting June 10th

Why only a week? There is no point in doing any missions anywhere near low sec until they fix load balancing, so better just stick in mission hubs.

Madame Currie
Posted - 2010.06.08 07:27:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

I have experimented with the new mechanics, to get sent to low sec I had to be in a system with > 160 people in local (the number is probably not fixed and is calculated by some load computed moving average).


Can not confirm that statement. I got 3 low missions in areas where are hardly more than 10 people in local. Guess you can call yourself lucky.
Quote:

For once in your life, do like everyone else in EvE have to do since 2003: deal with it.


I try to organize a strike, to force them to change something. Wouldn't you call that dealing?

Dipluz
Caldari
Notorious Legion
Posted - 2010.06.08 07:30:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Dipluz on 08/06/2010 07:31:17
Originally by: Madame Currie
With the dummy argument load balancing, ccp just f***d up not only the best 0.5 areas, but also the only viable team thing you could do in high (l5).
Since you either have to be a pirate, brain dead or a ccp game designer to think that missions in low are a viable option to make isk.

Unfortunately it will take ages before ccp will fix this error, unless of cause we let the servers crash.

So I call up any missioner to do what seems to be CCP's intention anyhow. Please only do missions in the mission hubs for a week starting June 10th, just to show how grateful we are for the latest change. With some luck the overloading servers annoy ccp to a point that they actually take back that ill advised routing to low and make eve a better place again.



Sorry I gotta totally not agree with u Madame Currie, I have done low sec lvl5 missions for a VERY long time and its very profitable. and its actually kinda nice, you just need to know how to play, and when to play it ;)

oh and yes grow some balls stop whining!


edit 1: forgot to mention that from 2005 when lvl5 agents was started to be made, they were intended for low sec and never highsec in the first place.

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2010.06.08 07:43:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Madame Currie

Since you either have to be a pirate, brain dead or a ccp game designer to think that missions in low are a viable option to make isk.



Or a Tengu pilot. Common, CCP gave us the perfectly safe missioning machine.

Madame Currie
Posted - 2010.06.08 07:44:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Dipluz
Edited by: Dipluz on 08/06/2010 07:31:17
Originally by: Madame Currie
With the dummy argument load balancing, ccp just f***d up not only the best 0.5 areas, but also the only viable team thing you could do in high (l5).
Since you either have to be a pirate, brain dead or a ccp game designer to think that missions in low are a viable option to make isk.

Unfortunately it will take ages before ccp will fix this error, unless of cause we let the servers crash.

So I call up any missioner to do what seems to be CCP's intention anyhow. Please only do missions in the mission hubs for a week starting June 10th, just to show how grateful we are for the latest change. With some luck the overloading servers annoy ccp to a point that they actually take back that ill advised routing to low and make eve a better place again.



Well, I have done that too. But to do it, you either have a rather empty system (and keep your eyes on combat probes), or you have to own the system. Otherwise it just get's a slug fest, any pirates jumps in. If you havn't heard the npc keep firing on you, so you need around 1/4 of the force to kill the missioners. You don't need balls to do a l5 in a crowded system, you need a

Sorry I gotta totally not agree with u Madame Currie, I have done low sec lvl5 missions for a VERY long time and its very profitable. and its actually kinda nice, you just need to know how to play, and when to play it ;)

oh and yes grow some balls stop whining!





I have done some l5 in low too. But to do them you either need a rather empty system, or you have to own it. If you don't know, some l5 have scramblers. So if your in a l5 (in a really hard to scan bs), and someone put out combat probes, good luck getting out in time. But than I guess you love to die and loose isk, otherwise I don't see how you could love to do pvp while npc's raining 1500 dps on your ships. Mabe your super skills compensate 1500 dps and your pve fit without any problem. Or you and your 20 friends (you always have around when doing l5 in your pvp fits), just don't care (I would get that).

Otherwise you don't need balls, but a lobotomy.

Quote:

edit 1: forgot to mention that from 2005 when lvl5 agents was started to be made, they were intended for low sec and never highsec in the first place.

True, than see my initial statement

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:00:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Madame Currie
Edited by: Madame Currie on 08/06/2010 07:29:37
the only viable team thing you could do in high (l5).



Rolling Eyes

Pretty typical of the mission-running mindset.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:06:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Madame Currie


You, mindless Denizen & overall accepted Drone, are the reason the rest of us who care, cannot have nice things.


you are aware, that missioning, ratting and npc buy orders are the only means, that add isk to the eve economy?

Any other professions just cannibalize on this sources.

Well, did not await a well thought answer anyhow ;)




You forgot insurance. So PvP adds quite a bit as well tyvm.

Madame Currie
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:09:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Madame Currie on 08/06/2010 08:09:42
Originally by: Malcanis

You forgot insurance. So PvP adds quite a bit as well tyvm.


Not true any more. Since tyranis, you will always loose more than you win. So pvp is just an isk sink.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:09:00 - [17]
 

Quote:

Can not confirm that statement. I got 3 low missions in areas where are hardly more than 10 people in local. Guess you can call yourself lucky



How many probabilities are there that I got lucky for so long time?
Also, if CCP used a moving load average (but I am just guessing), it'll be sensitive to variations on the load until a certain stabilization applies.

IE system with 160 "fixed" players tends to have x% sent to other systems, a subset of them being low sec. Of course if you are in a place with just 1 hi sec exit, then your chances are really worse.

System with long time 5 players. 5 more arrive. For what the load average cares, you doubled the people in local and it'll trigger (it's probably much more complex than this, just making a simple example) sending you around.

After say 1 week of having 10 players, the average "moves" upwards and now adding 5 more players will have less impact and so on.
BTW the mission rewards afaik are also calculated with a moving algorythm.


Quote:

I try to organize a strike, to force them to change something. Wouldn't you call that dealing?



Since "strikes" and other forms of blackmailing are usually frowned upon by developers (can get you banned in some MMOs), I'd say it's a form of knee-jerk emo-reacting more than anything else.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:21:00 - [18]
 

I don't think you know what a strike actually is so you probably shouldn't be organizing one. According to your definition, if I stop eating in the kitchen and eat in the living room I am on a hunger strike.

Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:22:00 - [19]
 

I gave up high-sec missioning for low/null plexing simply because the missioning was so boring it was unbearable.

I like the challenge and I also like the idea that reward is associated wtih risk.

My opinion. Differs from yours. So not signed.


Julius Rigel
Sub-warp Racing Venture
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:26:00 - [20]
 

You know, when a strike is called the union normally has a strike fund to pay the wages of the employees on strike.

So for 20 million per hour I shall stop running missions in the alloted time period. Very Happy

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:27:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 08/06/2010 08:28:46
Originally by: Madame Currie
Edited by: Madame Currie on 08/06/2010 08:09:42
Originally by: Malcanis

You forgot insurance. So PvP adds quite a bit as well tyvm.


Not true any more. Since tyranis, you will always loose more than you win. So pvp is just an isk sink.


That is not what an ISK sink means.

An ISK sink is where money disappears from the player economy, i.e. goes from a player to NPCs. Insurance is the opposite, so long as it is a positive number. Even if you just got 1 ISK for losing a BB hull, that one isk appears out of no where and lands in the player economy.


edit to add: of course, paying for the insurance initially is an ISK sink. And if payouts, total, are less than insurance fees, that would also be an ISK sink. But I really, really, really doubt that's the case. PEND insurance always has and always will be the worst run business in New Eden.

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:27:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Madame Currie
Edited by: Madame Currie on 08/06/2010 08:09:42
Originally by: Malcanis

You forgot insurance. So PvP adds quite a bit as well tyvm.


Not true any more. Since tyranis, you will always loose more than you win. So pvp is just an isk sink.


isk moving from one player's pocket to other player's pocket is not isk sink.

Madame Currie
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:38:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Madame Currie on 08/06/2010 08:46:44
Originally by: Julius Rigel
You know, when a strike is called the union normally has a strike fund to pay the wages of the employees on strike.

So for 20 million per hour I shall stop running missions in the alloted time period. Very Happy


Well, not asking not to mission, but to mission in one of the mission hubs (which you will do soon anyhow, since the low missions are more annoying than ninjas (which are less common now, that they nerved loot too)). It is just speeding up a process that was started with this change anyhow.

ps. If you only make 20m per hour you should refine your tactics.

Madame Currie
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:43:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney

edit to add: of course, paying for the insurance initially is an ISK sink. And if payouts, total, are less than insurance fees, that would also be an ISK sink. But I really, really, really doubt that's the case. PEND insurance always has and always will be the worst run business in New Eden.


well, the moment ship cost + module costs + ammunition costs + insurance cost < insurance payout + dropped modules + salvage + ( potential lp in FW)
isk is leaving the eve economy.

So yes pvp is a isk sink

Legs Mackenzie
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:46:00 - [25]
 

Hmm, I suppose this could work if enough people did it.

If enough people stopped doing missions, CCP would deem the feature not cost effective to maintain and it would be dropped without warning in a future patch.

Zartrader
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:54:00 - [26]
 

As a Mission Runner I've not had any problems after a bit of testing. As someone said there does seem to be a calculation which I'm just working out, but in any event my low sec missions are now negligible.

Also some people need to grasp being in a mission hub was never a good idea in the first place due to lower rewards and ninja salvagers, this change just forced the issue. Think of it as a favour.

I think the fact that the better missions, exploration sites and rewards in general are in low and nul sec is no incentive to go to them anyway as things stand now, the imbalance is perverse. So goodbye level 5's for most players. No one is interested in playing a game where you're in a PVE character against a PVP character while also being attacked by NPC's. That's not a game I have any interest in, especially as outnumbering the enemy is the only way many PVP players play, which is not playing at all. If I'm interesting in being mindlessly ganked I'll go to AOC and res non stop at the newbie graveyard, much less hassle.

And Insurance is still a tap (faucet) not a sink. Maybe less of one than it was though.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:55:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Madame Currie
Originally by: Malcanis
You forgot insurance. So PvP adds quite a bit as well tyvm.

Not true any more. Since Tyranis, you will always lose more than you win. So PVP is just an ISK sink.

I don't think you know what "ISK sink" means. I think you meant to say "PvP is a negative sum game".
Here's a few hints : if ISK does _not_ get destroyed, it's not an ISK sink ; if ISK actually gets created, no matter how much, it's the very opposite of an ISK sink, in other words, an ISK faucet (or ISK source, or ISK fountain, or however else you wish to call it).
Since you never actually lose any ISK (just assets) and you do gain some ISK whenever you lose in PvP, PvP is actually an ISK source, NOT an ISK sink.
But it is indeed usually a negative sum game, insomuch as less ISK is created compared to the value of assets that get destroyed. It's still not an ISK sink, as ISK gets created, not destroyed.
So just to drive this thing home, again, PvP is _NOT_ an ISK sink.

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:55:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 08/06/2010 09:03:32
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 08/06/2010 08:55:04
Originally by: Madame Currie
Originally by: Emperor Cheney

edit to add: of course, paying for the insurance initially is an ISK sink. And if payouts, total, are less than insurance fees, that would also be an ISK sink. But I really, really, really doubt that's the case. PEND insurance always has and always will be the worst run business in New Eden.


well, the moment ship cost + module costs + ammunition costs + insurance cost < insurance payout + dropped modules + salvage + ( potential lp in FW)
isk is leaving the eve economy.

So yes pvp is a isk sink


get your facts straight. pvp is the largest material sink. if it was isk sink as well, prices would tank year after year. it's just not happening. most pvpers (being combat pilots) either rat or mission to recover their losses, and that means bringing isk to economy. most don't bother with getting fair price for loot/salvage. and any isk going to LP store for pvp items is zero sum.

edit: typo

Zartrader
Posted - 2010.06.08 09:04:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Zartrader on 08/06/2010 09:08:16


Originally by: Madame Currie
Originally by: Emperor Cheney

edit to add: of course, paying for the insurance initially is an ISK sink. And if payouts, total, are less than insurance fees, that would also be an ISK sink. But I really, really, really doubt that's the case. PEND insurance always has and always will be the worst run business in New Eden.


well, the moment ship cost + module costs + ammunition costs + insurance cost < insurance payout + dropped modules + salvage + ( potential lp in FW)
isk is leaving the eve economy.

So yes pvp is a isk sink


Isk is not materials.

Isk transfer (if purchased) but stays in game:

Ship
Module costs
Ammo costs
Modules
Salvage

Variable Isk Sink (may be nil):

LP stores

Isk Sink:
Insurance premiums

ISK Faucet (tap)

Insurance payouts are always higher than premiums. The amount of lapsed premiums is assumed negligible when compared to insured PVP losses.

So, Insurance is an ISK faucet.

Madame Currie
Posted - 2010.06.08 09:06:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Akita T

So just to drive this thing home, again, PvP is _NOT_ an ISK sink.


Sorry didn't get that you narrowed your view to the moment the ship is destroyed.

For me the term is a little broader. And if you take all costs into account, isk is leaving the game, no question. Please read my post again, if you don't get it.

It is funny that people combating that statement, mention the next line, that they are ratting to cover the losses ;)





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