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Kathr
Posted - 2010.06.22 02:39:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Louis deGuerre

* The skill Planetology increases the accuracy when scanning planets for resources. This is visible in the number of gradient bands displayed on the planet surface when scanning for a resource (requires Remote Sensing L3).
* The skill Advanced Planetology further increases the accuracy when scanning planets for resources (requires Planetology L4).



The planetology skill not only refines the accuracy of the planetary scanner but it also boosts the production of existing extractors. I had planetology IV and had 14 extractors running to test the depletion rate of a node. So I was tracking the 23 hour extraction rate for each of them. When I trained to Advanced planetology III, the extractors increased production.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.06.22 10:31:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Louis deGuerre on 22/06/2010 10:32:21
Originally by: Kathr
The planetology skill not only refines the accuracy of the planetary scanner but it also boosts the production of existing extractors. I had planetology IV and had 14 extractors running to test the depletion rate of a node. So I was tracking the 23 hour extraction rate for each of them. When I trained to Advanced planetology III, the extractors increased production.


Hi Kathr,
In theory, this should not happen if you did not move the extractors. It might be due to a decrease in overal mining for that resource on the planet, or if there has been a pause in resource extraction, or people have stopped mining the same site you are mining.
Other factors could also have influence, but (see final notes in guide) CCP has said that actual 'true' quality of sites do not increase or decrease. Their 'relative' quality can go up an down to how much they are exploited.
In practice, I've seem some weird results as well, but my experiments have not been able to determine anything other than 'overmining' will indeed decrease 'relative' quality (from a max 'absolute' quality), but if you abandon the site and come back later the 'relative' quality has increased back to the 'absolute' quality.

tl;dr : planetology skills only help in finding good sites, they do not improve your actual production (as far as I know).

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2010.06.22 15:08:00 - [33]
 

Just want to add a little advice after my first attempts at fumbling about setting up a colony.

That advice is this:

Go to the test server (Download Singularity Here) and play around with this some. The guides are great but there's a lot of stuff to process and you'll make mistakes and have to delete things. There's just no substitute for hands on experience.

Re-reading the guides after having fooled around with the interface some on Sisi - I understood what I was reading a lot better than I had the first time through.

Make your mistakes on the Test Servier, that way, you'll know what you're doing when you get to Tranquility and you're spending real money.

One warning though - your character will be current only up to the last synchronization with TQ - so some things you've trained on TQ may not be trained yet on Sisi. Thus, if you are thinking about getting involved in PI - you might want to get those skills training on BOTH TQ and Sisi at the same time.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.06.22 22:43:00 - [34]
 

Kinda feared opening the thread as I saw Greyhawk posted and was afraid he would blast my guide with his razorsharp wits, but apparently I lucked out Wink

I totally agree with him (of course Razz). Play around on Sisi for a bit, anyone who reads this forum frequently might recall my horrible first attempts at PI which were not fit for producing products, just ridicule Embarassed
But as it was all done on Sisi I lost nothing.

Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.06.25 19:31:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Louis deGuerre
Kinda feared opening the thread as I saw Greyhawk posted and was afraid he would blast my guide with his razorsharp wits, but apparently I lucked out Wink

I totally agree with him (of course Razz). Play around on Sisi for a bit, anyone who reads this forum frequently might recall my horrible first attempts at PI which were not fit for producing products, just ridicule Embarassed
But as it was all done on Sisi I lost nothing.


Absolutely awesome guide, thanks for posting it.

Kudlow N'cramer
World Eaters Excavation
Posted - 2010.06.25 20:31:00 - [36]
 

Quote:
Usually you will want to produce the highest-tier product you can make on a single planet (so you don't need to export/import and move stuff between planets). The highest-tier product you can build on a planet is a tier 3 product (Specialized Commodities) and each planet can produce only one :

Good guide, but I completely disagree with this. Here's why:

1. You can only make what you extract. Doing this will limit your extraction.

2. Extraction ramps up greatly in low sec. If you get nabbed while transporting material, it's better to lose P1 than P3.

3. There are 15 P1 goods and 8 P4's. There are many more P2's and P3's. In other words, P1's are far more versatile. When you make a P2 or P3 item on the same planet you are extracting on, you cut off all the other combinations of goods that your extraction could be going towards.


For those reasons I highly advise setting up separate P1 planets (in the lowest sec you feel comfortable with) and manufacturing planets in hi sec.

XGC Starfire
Posted - 2010.06.25 20:46:00 - [37]
 

I got to agree with Kudlow on that, like myself I produce all 8 P4 chains with 4 POS fuel chains also; First I extract a resource and turn it to P1 on the same planet constantly, Second I export the P1 to a planet where I make P2/P3/p4 then export the P4 fly and pick it up. Rinse and Repeat. Seeing where I am located its always friendlies in local most of the time. Got to say wasn't easy trying to balance everything to work constantly but once I knew the numbers I keep the P4 production running every 24hrs, currently like 30 planets I have to take care to do this, it isn't that difficult just a long clickfest that has to be done.

Mu'n Hurricane
Minmatar
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2010.06.25 21:46:00 - [38]
 

Thank's alot. But could anyone tell me how much do the facilities cost?

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.06.25 22:08:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Mu'n Hurricane
Thank's alot. But could anyone tell me how much do the facilities cost?


Command Centers are purchased from the market. They range from a few thousand for the almost useless basic, to like 5 million (from memory) for the elite.

Other structures are:
Extractor 150,000 isk
Storage 600,000 isk
Basic Processor 225,000 isk
Advanced Processor 450,000 isk
High Tech processor 900,000 isk
Spaceport 1,125,000 isk

Mu'n Hurricane
Minmatar
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2010.06.25 22:27:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Mu'n Hurricane
Thank's alot. But could anyone tell me how much do the facilities cost?


Command Centers are purchased from the market. They range from a few thousand for the almost useless basic, to like 5 million (from memory) for the elite.

Other structures are:
Extractor 150,000 isk
Storage 600,000 isk
Basic Processor 225,000 isk
Advanced Processor 450,000 isk
High Tech processor 900,000 isk
Spaceport 1,125,000 isk


Thanks!

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.06.26 00:11:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Louis deGuerre on 26/06/2010 00:21:38
Originally by: Kudlow N'cramer
Good guide, but I completely disagree with this. Here's why:

1. You can only make what you extract. Doing this will limit your extraction.

2. Extraction ramps up greatly in low sec. If you get nabbed while transporting material, it's better to lose P1 than P3.

3. There are 15 P1 goods and 8 P4's. There are many more P2's and P3's. In other words, P1's are far more versatile. When you make a P2 or P3 item on the same planet you are extracting on, you cut off all the other combinations of goods that your extraction could be going towards.


For those reasons I highly advise setting up separate P1 planets (in the lowest sec you feel comfortable with) and manufacturing planets in hi sec.


These are valid points, but keep in mind that I said at the start it was a guide for lazy people Razz so that advice was for people who want the maximum isk / least effort.

1. P3 products (end products) are tiny in volume compared to the volume of T1 or even T2 that is needed to produce so you only have to do export hauling runs rarely, and no export/import runs between planets.
The obvious downside is that many lazy people will saturate the market for those specific T3 products resulting in (eventually) lower revenue compared to other, harder to make, T3 products.

2. Don't get caught Razz It's not that hard.

3. See 1.

So it's true that if you want to get deep in PI and make all kinds of cool stuff and P4 stuff like XGC Starfire, then the lazy approach will fail you and you will have to get down and dirty with your planets.
I myself use 4 planets to produce all the POS fuel you can make with PI so that leaves me with 1 planet to spare (interplanetary consolidation L4 in a few days) which I will use to probably make Explosives on a temperate planet.
I do really think that the market for (most) P1 and P2 material will get saturated in due time and profits will become bad for those products, but for now the market is crazy and good isk can be made with PI.

weebil
Amarr
industrial apocolypse
Posted - 2010.06.26 10:44:00 - [42]
 

Thanks again, the guide has tempted me to try. Two questions

"The Coolant and Oxygen will start to pile up in the Launchpad. Whenever you want to, fly over to the Cargo Link in a hauler and use the Launchpad to export the Coolant and Oxygen from the planet."

Can you choose how much to take, or do you have to take it all?

Can I offload say P1 materials to a spaceport that is not my own, eg corpmate or alt?

Rhaegor Stormborn
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.06.26 12:50:00 - [43]
 

Great guide, you were finally able to get me started on trying out PI and now I have 10 planets running between two characters making POS fuels. Thanks a lot.

TLWE
Polish Lords' Confederacy
Posted - 2010.06.26 13:44:00 - [44]
 

Also don't forget clicking.
The insane amount of clicking. Hard, fast, tough, repetitive, stretching your hand, monotonous clicking party for 30 min daily to start 10-12 colonies extractors on daily basis.
Never forget the clicking.

Must have skills:
Remote Sensing lv5
Interplanetary Consolidation lv5
The rest skills over lv4 is huge, insane, unmotivated waste of time. Planetology? All on lv4 and then you put extractors between hot spots or on their borders to find 10% better yields. Command Center Upgrades? Don't count on doubling power grid with elite cc in comparison to advanced one. You get nasty 2000+ more, which lands you like 2 more extractors. PITIFUL! PATHETIC! 15 days wasted in wasteful skilling! Not worth loosing 15 days to add on top of 20-21 extractors just 2 puny ones more.

12 planets should land you with 2 basic factories output of every planetary resource in highsec to produce enough tier4 goods for 1 large control tower per month and some amount of tech2 manufacturing components.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.06.27 01:10:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Louis deGuerre on 27/06/2010 01:25:56

Originally by: weebil
Can you choose how much to take, or do you have to take it all?


You can only export/import all of one material/product from and to the cargo link, not a part of it. The cargo link functions just like a hangar so you should be able to just take any amount from it and drag it to your hauler cargo bay using shift-drag (I never actually tried this).

Originally by: weebil
Can I offload say P1 materials to a spaceport that is not my own, eg corpmate or alt?


You can not exchange things at the cargo links. You'll either have to trade in a station or jettison it for your mate to pickup or devise some other method. If you access the cargo link you will always see 'your' hangar. This is a popular complaint so hopefully CCP will change this.

Originally by: TLWE
Lots of stuff Razz


I despise the endless clicking as well, and my guide explains how to minimize the clicking as much as possible. Hopefully CCP will see reason about this (it used to be 10 times worse initially on the test server so there is hope).
You only need Remote Sensing L3 (to get Planetology).
I agree that none of the skills is really worth training to L5, except maybe Interplanetary Consolidation (but I won't). Advanced Planetology to L4 is not really necessary (Planetology L4 gives quite good results already), but it does not take long to train and is nice to have.

Rhaegor Stormborn
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.06.27 02:48:00 - [46]
 

I am trying to setup the most efficient planets I can to produce P2 materials, mostly POS fuels. I am thinking that the best I can do for any given planet is to have 5 extractors for each P0 material. 3 basic processors for each P0 into P1 reaction. 2 advanced processors making P1 materials into P2. 2 launch pads, and a command center.

I have been plunking down 5 extractors at the best hotspot on a planet, then another 5 on the other material and setting up a central command/launch/production area in between them. All P0 is routed to one of the launch pads which is then sent to the proper basic processing facilities. The basic processors send everything to the next launch pad which then feeds to the two advanced. Their P2 finished materials are send back the 2nd launch pad which sent the P1 mats for production.

What I like about this is that I can have all my processors running off of one shared pool of P0 materials. I am in 0.0 and producing general 2000 units or more per extractor which produces a little more than 3 basic processors can keep up with. Anyway, not sure if this is any good, but I started with your idea and the storage contain at each little localized productin area was filling up and the processor assigned to it could not keep up with the excess maetrials, so I thought this might be a better way. The only problem with this method, or inefficient compared to yours, is that I have to run 5 semi long links from all the extractors to the p0 holdinglaunch pad. On large planets this would limit the amount of extractors you could place. One thing you mentioned, and I don't seem to be having a problem with, is that I have no need to upgrade my links moving the P0 materials across that distance.

Harkonen55
Posted - 2010.06.27 05:22:00 - [47]
 

I really like the guide with one exception.

Quote:
So when setting up your colony you want to prevent having to upgrade your links and want to have as few of them and as short as possible. If you're upgrading your links, you're doing it wrong.
Constructing structures costs isk, constructing links does not.


This doesn't make sense to me at all if you are doing more than just extracting as much R0 as possible, and even then only when you can fit all of your extractors in a ring just barely not touching the launchpad. The problem is that upgrading a link yields double the size at much less than double the grid requirements.

If you're extracting on more than one hot spot (for multiple materials) or going to a launch pad then to a set of processors. You can build shorter links from all of the extractors to the extractor closest to the launchpad and then a single link from all of your extractors to the pad. This will allow you to have the minimum total distance used, and the maximum use of all of your links (a link being used at 50% of maximum is wasted grid). You can then do the same thing from your pad to your processor cluster using the same system. You will be able to move the same amount of product using less grid (possibly much less in the case of gas giants). This is especially true for people attempting to make P2s or P3s on a single planet as they will need to pull from multiple hot spots and this allows them to use one launch pad for the minimum amount of grid used.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.06.27 12:33:00 - [48]
 

I'm guessing that Harkonen55 is not doing PI in 0.0 or never runs 5 hour cycles.

My base setup is such that I can run 5 hour cycles in addition to 23 hour cycles without upgrading my links, thus allowing me to boost production when I want to (i.e. forgot to resurvey Razz) and place the maximum number of structures.

You will find (in 0.0) that if you have more than 2 extractors linking to a storage (spaceport or silo) like this E->E->S you will overload the links if you try to use 5 hour cycles (as the volume of raw material extracted is so high). In highsec your extractors will produce much less material and so you will not get overloaded links without making very long chains and using very short cycles.
I also mention that if you never intend to use faster cycles than 23 hours (in 0.0) you can get rid of all the excess storage and just use a single spaceport for all your storage.
Lastly, when designing your base, don't forget that routes can only travel trough 6 structures maximum, so don't make your chains too long.

So there are many different base configurations possible depending on where you are doing PI, what you want to do and how fast you want to do it.

I am not exactly sure what Rhaegor Stormborn is doing but if he has 3 storages instead of 2 then he has one too many. If he is moving all the p0 to a central location and back he will get overloaded links if he tries to run 5 hour cycles (unlike with my setup). If he is in 0.0 of course.

It can be a problem keeping the production 'balanced' in 0.0. When I see a storage overflowing with raw materials I replace one of the local extractors with an extra processor and vice versa if I see idle processors. This is wasting isk of course, but I'm in it for the maximum amount of POS fuel, not the isk.


Harkonen55
Posted - 2010.06.27 14:40:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Harkonen55 on 27/06/2010 14:42:56
I actually do all of my production in 0.0, and you are correct, at about 3-4 extractors in a chain I need to upgrade my link. Here's the thing though, I'm mining from two hotspots, they are close but not stacked on top of each other. This means that there is some size to the links required to get from my extractors to the spaceport. Linking my extractors to my one spaceport (building a second spaceport on anything other than a gas world will use more grid than the links) can be done two ways.

Way 1, the way that is suggested by this guide is to link each extractor individually to the spaceport yielding a total length of links of X, a total grid usage of Y, and a total capacity of Z.

Way 2, the way I do it where you cluster your extractors and then link them through a central point and upgrade the link to the spaceport. This yields a total length of links of A, a total grid usage of B, and a total capacity of Z (still as the total product moved must be the same).

The thing is that an upgraded link of some length (call it L) costs less grid than two non-upgraded links of length L. So, in my above example A<<X B<Y and Z=Z. This comes about because each of your links using method 1 will be about length A, so when you upgrade link A you save a little bit of grid. The grid saved becomes much more pronounced as you move up the upgrade chain (a level 2 link offers 4x the capacity at closer to 3x the grid).

You're right that my method rapidly runs into problems if I switch from a 23 hour cycle to a 5 hour (or even 30 minute cycle). However, if I've built my processors based on a 23 hour cycle then a 5 hour cycle is only going to result in an excess of R0 materials sitting in my launchpad taking up space so I see no reason to do that.

In fact, it occurs to me that if this was for hi-sec it would be even better to try and chain them because you could save on the total number of links (going from 8 extractors and 8 links to 8 extractors and 1 link) although I suppose this matters less as you'd likely only be making R0 or P1 at the most.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.06.27 16:34:00 - [50]
 

If you only ever run 23 hours cycles your way is the way to go, especially if you do PI in highsec.

Ulviirala Vauryndar
Gallente
Vauryndar Dalharil
Posted - 2010.06.28 09:42:00 - [51]
 

Upgrading a link is not a bad thing to do, because of building space restrictions (in order to keep links as short as possible) and powergrid restrictions. In a lot of situations it's much better to upgrade links than to create a new one or put down an additional storage pin.

You are wrong in many ways by claiming that an upgraded link is a failure. The right link for the right job, that's the key. This also takes into consideration the number of pins, the purpose of the planet, number of extractors, extraction plans and abundancy of recources.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.06.28 10:14:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Ulviirala Vauryndar
You are wrong in many ways by claiming that an upgraded link is a failure. The right link for the right job, that's the key. This also takes into consideration the number of pins, the purpose of the planet, number of extractors, extraction plans and abundancy of recources.


Oh, let me count the ways...Razz
I'm not changing it as 99 times out of 100 the reason you need to upgrade links is because your base design is flawed, and you can prevent having to upgrade by improving your base design.
But I agree there can be setups where upgrading links is the way to go.

Kilab Gercias
Posted - 2010.06.28 10:40:00 - [53]
 

In 0.0 you have to upgrade some links, also the upgrade always cost about the same in Powergrid (cpu isnt a bottleneck). But the m3/h from upgrade Links are 250 --> 500 --> 1000 --> 2000 ---> 4000.

So Upgarde 1 cost nearly the same as a sec link, but with upgrade 2 and 3 you are good to go.

An in 0.0 some hotspots extractor already overload a normal link with the 5min/30min cycle. So you can either build 8 links from the extractor to the storage, or build 7 short links and one long upgrade link

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.06.28 12:13:00 - [54]
 

Good guide.

I notice you have not mentioned anything about the buffer capability of all industrial facilities.

Dillon Arklight
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.06.29 09:04:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Dillon Arklight on 29/06/2010 09:15:27
Nice guide, thanks.

I almost never use silos in my chain as i prefer to feed extractors directly into Basic's, as long as they provide more than 3000 into the basic im not too worried about loosing the odd amount of raw materials. I can see your plan has merit of using a silo to buffer the transfer as it would be useful if i was late resetting my extractors the excess could be used to feed the basic's. To each their own i guess.....

Thanks again.

Benco97
Gallente
Terraprobe Dynamics
Posted - 2010.06.29 13:21:00 - [56]
 

I know Silos get a bad rap around these parts but you'll not catch me without a handful scattered around.
I am paranoid..PARANOID.. about waste and buffer everything, even if technically it shouldn't be producing waste so long as it is managed correctly.

C'est la vie.

Durin Sarga
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:05:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Louis deGuerre


So when setting up your colony you want to prevent having to upgrade your links and want to have as few of them and as short as possible. If you're upgrading your links, you're doing it wrong.

.....

There's also another way to transport stuff around called Expedited Transfer. If you find yourself using this, you're doing it wrong. The only time you might want to use this is when you are rearranging your colony and moving stuff from storage to storage. You cannot make a route from storage to storage, so always route the output of a process to the Launchpad.




Hey Louis,

I generally agree with what you've said in your guide, but wanted to point out the following idea. When doing an 'industrial' planet it may be found more to your advantage to have a series of silos and use expedited transfers over upgraded links.

I operate 5 planets myself in WH and oversee my corporations PI efforts which encompass over 15 planets (WH and Empire). Because the launchpad can only hold 10,000 m3 and I am 23/7 producing multiple P3 chains on a single planet it makes sense to have my 'silo sector'. I store a full supply of 1 P1 material in each silo. Then my industrial facilities act more like batch reactors. They pull from the correct 'ingredient' silo and batch together to make P2. The P2 facilities feed the P3. The P3 dumps into the launchpad.

This makes it simple, because I just import my goods en masse from the customs office and use expedited transfers to 'stock' my silos full again. Excess P1 inventory is left in the customs office until it has room to fit in the appropriate silo.

In regards to upgrading links... this is CRITICAL to effectively using expedited transfers. Each node is only allowed a single expedited transfer per X amount of time. That time is calculated in similar fashion to how we would calculate a cash advance in real life. If the link I would use already operates at 180/250 m^3 per hour then I have 70 m^3 per hour of capacity per hour left over. By expediting 140 m^3 of goods I get it to the destination instantly and the node is then unable to do another transfer for 2 hours (140/70 = 2). So upgrading my links along my silo chain is beneficial because it allows me to get more transfers in per day, or a single large transfer in without clogging up my capacity for days to come.

Hope this explains why there is a place in PI for link upgrades and expedited transfers. I use them about once a week to 're-stock' my silos.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:44:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Benco97
I know Silos get a bad rap around these parts but you'll not catch me without a handful scattered around.
I am paranoid..PARANOID.. about waste and buffer everything, even if technically it shouldn't be producing waste so long as it is managed correctly.

C'est la vie.


I think you miss the point.

The spaceport has a large storage. Since you are going to have a spaceport for importing and exporting anyway, use the spaceport as storage your buffer.

All extractors route to the spaceport, then route back out to the processors, which route back to the spaceport.

You get the buffer from the spaceport without having to spend the extra powergrid for the storage.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2010.06.30 18:55:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Durin Sarga
When doing an 'industrial' planet it may be found more to your advantage to have a series of silos and use expedited transfers over upgraded links.

[clip]Because the launchpad can only hold 10,000 m3 and I am 23/7 producing multiple P3 chains on a single planet it makes sense to have my 'silo sector'.


A space port has 2x the storage space of a silo and uses the same powergrid. If you have a large number of silos, I can't imagine you have enough processors to be running out of CPU.

So, why not use half as many spaceports as you are currently using for silos. Then you don't need to do the transfers or upgrade the links.

You open the spaceport you want to import to, import your P1s. Repeat. Link and route from that spaceport into the processor,then out of the processors into you export spaceport.

Powergird is almost always the limiting factor, and storage silos use twice the PG per m3 of the spaceport, and no need to expidite transfer (more pg saved as you don't have to upgrade links).

Durin Sarga
Posted - 2010.06.30 19:11:00 - [60]
 

Lol. Thanks Tarawa. I actually was giving that idea some thought too after perusing my post more. I'll let you know how that goes. I did the storage facilities mostly to keep tabs on my individual stockpiles from a 'birdseye' point-of-view. Since each silo corresponded to one material I could just eye-ball it and say "Oh, my plasmoids are low".

But your point makes sense.

Don't know off the top of my head how much CPU I have left. I'm running 12 Advanced, 1 basic and 2 extractors. Plus the one launchpad and 6 silos. Links have been incidental on the CPU/PG so far. Even with upgrading them.

Our corp is still orchestrating the 'complete' version of our production chain. So the end product will hopefully hold 15 advance, 6 silos, and a launchpad. Dropping the silos in favor of more lauchpads may get me more room to squeeze something else on there.

Cheers.



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