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blankseplocked Red Frog Freight Press Release
 
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Gabriel Rosencrantz
Gods of Freight
Posted - 2010.06.05 00:30:00 - [1]
 

To the Business Community of EVE:

It is with regret that Red Frog Freight announces that Vito Zornada, a former RF pilot, has absconded with 8 courier contracts. The freight had a total approximate value of more than 8 billion ISK.

Of the 8 contracts, 6 were issued without any collateral, and 2 were collateralized below the actual value of the contents of the package. The two courier contracts that had a value above the collateral contained items inside a can. Vito Zornada looked inside the cans that were inside the courier packages and determined that the value of the items exceeded the collateral.

Red Frog Freight is sorry that we accepted an untrustworthy pilot into Red Frog. We value our reputation highly, and we are distressed that we were not able to prevent the thefts. To those members of the MD community who have used our services and come to trust in our good name, we apologize. We hope that you will not forget our years of impeccable service and professionalism. Red Frog Freight looks forward to providing you that same level of service for years to come.


Red Frog Freight Directors and Pilots

Thread locked on request of OP. Navigator

PinkFish
Posted - 2010.06.05 00:39:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Rosencrantz
Of the 8 contracts, 6 were issued without any collateral


Why would anyone do this? It sounds like they were asking to get scammed. Even honest pilots would probably think twice about scamming when someone just waves 8 billion isk in their face.

porth0s
Posted - 2010.06.05 00:45:00 - [3]
 

No offense to anyone who got ripped off, I know that sucks, but seriously who doesn't put collateral on the courier contracts. I mean, this is EVE.

SetrakDark
DarkCorp Citizens Holdings
DarkCorp Citizens
Posted - 2010.06.05 00:48:00 - [4]
 

Was Red Frog encouraging customers to not post full collateral based on their pilots trustworthiness? If yes, wtf? If no, then who cares?

Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.06.05 01:19:00 - [5]
 

Bummer for you guys I guess, but it doesn't really make Red Frog look bad imo. If some idiot doesn't add a collateral to his contract, then they deserved what they got.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.06.05 01:21:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Vilgan Mazran
Bummer for you guys I guess, but it doesn't really make Red Frog look bad imo. If some idiot doesn't add a collateral to his contract, then they deserved what they got.


Indeed. Out of thousands of contracts only these 8 have been taken? If thats true then thats quite a track record, and still something to be proud of.

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2010.06.05 03:08:00 - [7]
 

1. I assume these contracts were internal that had no collateral

2. Is Red frog reimbursing any customers who may be out of pocket


Gabriel Rosencrantz
Gods of Freight
Posted - 2010.06.05 03:36:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Gabriel Rosencrantz on 05/06/2010 04:07:09
Originally by: SetrakDark
Was Red Frog encouraging customers to not post full collateral based on their pilots trustworthiness? If yes, wtf? If no, then who cares?


No. Red Frog's policy has always been a maximum collateral of 1 billion. This is solely to prevent suicide ganks. We are clear both in our trip calculator and in our FAQ that the max limit is 1 billion.

Originally by: cosmoray
1. I assume these contracts were internal that had no collateral
2. Is Red frog reimbursing any customers who may be out of pocket

No, these were not "internal contracts." These were regular contracts that were made without collateral or with insufficient collateral and available on the general corp queue to all pilots. Red Frog will not be reimbursing clients for insufficient collateral; the potential for abuse is too great.

edit for clarification

Jamie Hymenen
Posted - 2010.06.05 04:10:00 - [9]
 

RF prob makes that much in a week, I'm really disappointed in you guys on this one.

Gabriel Rosencrantz
Gods of Freight
Posted - 2010.06.05 04:13:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Jamie Hymenen
RF prob makes that much in a week, I'm really disappointed in you guys on this one.

Red Frog Freight makes no money. 100% of all contract rewards go to the pilot. We charge no fees or dues.

Jamie Hymenen
Posted - 2010.06.05 04:20:00 - [11]
 

Looks like from now on I'll be using Cirkulos since RF doesn't want to take any responsibilty

Ragonus
Posted - 2010.06.05 04:45:00 - [12]
 

I've been using RF for months and have always had prompt and professional service. The fact is: collateral is there for a reason. If the affected pilots had used it properly, the theft wouldn't have happened. I noticed I was able to look into a freight can that I courier-contracted to an alt, and thought to myself that this was something you couldn't do prior to Tyrannis. RF might want to give its customers some clarification on this mechanic and if this is the case, has there been any change in the ability of a gank-squad to scan the contents of the cargo when packaged in this way?

Gabriel Rosencrantz
Gods of Freight
Posted - 2010.06.05 05:07:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Gabriel Rosencrantz on 05/06/2010 06:00:43
Originally by: Ragonus
RF might want to give its customers some clarification on this mechanic and if this is the case, has there been any change in the ability of a gank-squad to scan the contents of the cargo when packaged in this way?

The FAQ will be updated in the next 24hrs to clarify the importance of accurate collateral. While accurate collateral has always been essential, we agree that it is important that the mechanic be fully explained for those who are unfamiliar with the particulars. Our initial tests indicate that the contents cannot be scanned by cargo scans, nor can a pilot view the contents of a can within a courier contract in his hold while the pilot is in space.

edit: The FAQ has been updated to clarify the importance of accurate collateral.

Syds Sinclair
Posted - 2010.06.05 06:46:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Jamie Hymenen
Looks like from now on I'll be using Cirkulos since RF doesn't want to take any responsibilty


It looks like RF Freight is being responsible by updating their FAQ and making this thread. The person who is responsible is the pilot(s) who undervalued their goods and did not put a collateral on the contracts.

Keep up the great work RF Freight. I made a contract with you this morning, and I will do so in the future as well.

RL political reference removed. Navigator

Sawyer LaFleur
Posted - 2010.06.05 07:37:00 - [15]
 

I don't know about you guys but I was impressed that they came rigth out and told the story themselves on this most public commerce spot.

Thumbs up for facing bad events head on. For the gripers they couldn't be more clear what their policy is in terms of risk... and this disclosure underlines that point. Clearly they don't like the bad press but they're upright enough to disclose when things go wrong.

KiaTader
Posted - 2010.06.05 07:54:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Sawyer LaFleur
I don't know about you guys but I was impressed that they came rigth out and told the story themselves on this most public commerce spot.

Thumbs up for facing bad events head on. For the gripers they couldn't be more clear what their policy is in terms of risk... and this disclosure underlines that point. Clearly they don't like the bad press but they're upright enough to disclose when things go wrong.


*Hands Sawyer LaFleur a beer*
So true, so true

L Abrat
Posted - 2010.06.05 08:09:00 - [17]
 

Quote:
I don't know about you guys but I was impressed that they came rigth out and told the story themselves on this most public commerce spot.

Thumbs up for facing bad events head on. For the gripers they couldn't be more clear what their policy is in terms of risk... and this disclosure underlines that point. Clearly they don't like the bad press but they're upright enough to disclose when things go wrong


^^ this , adds Vito Zornada to the "do not hire" list (any idea who is his main?)

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.06.05 08:29:00 - [18]
 

It is bad form in my opinion to mess with the pillars of the EVE community, such as:
* Chribba
* EVE University
* Red Frog Freight
Even if you've personally never dealt with them, be assured that EVE is a better place for having them around.

I don't see this incident affecting Red Frog Freight's reputation.

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.05 08:43:00 - [19]
 

Why would people put up contracts with lass-than-adequate collateral?

It was always my understanding that Red Frog was more of a freighter service clearing house than "Gabriel Rosencrantz will move your stuff for you".

Romanov DeBeers
Gallente
Small Gods
Posted - 2010.06.05 08:55:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Romanov DeBeers on 05/06/2010 10:15:33
Edited by: Romanov DeBeers on 05/06/2010 09:06:22
Vito's just picked up one of my standard courier contracts heading from Jita to Dodidxie.

Small high value but properly colateraled

Wonder if it will get delivered

Edit: It did

Alexi Blue
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.06.05 09:31:00 - [21]
 

I used RF in the past and I will continue to do so. If someone puts no collateral on their courier contract it's their own fault. Collateral is there for a reason and if the actual value exceeds 1B you can always split the cargo into two packages. Thieves and scammers will always be present in EVE and nobody is immune to them. This incident shouldn't hurt RF's reputation and I don't think they should be under any obligation to reimburse the losses.

flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
Posted - 2010.06.05 09:41:00 - [22]
 

Shows good spirit to reveal this to the public but i have a question:Did you also make this statement on your WTS thread since i assume a high percentage of your users is not MD readers.Even amongst a lot of traders the MD forum is either not read or 'unknown'and not everyone who uses your service is by definition a trader.




Chaos Dreams
Posted - 2010.06.05 10:14:00 - [23]
 

I've never had a problem with RFF.

No clue why people would set up a courier contract with no collateral. Even if no one had stolen there would still be the risk of ganks. The overly trusting and/or lazy people who made the contracts are to blame for their own losses.

Good of you to come forward with the information, though.

Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society
Posted - 2010.06.05 11:02:00 - [24]
 

I once put up a contract with a 1b reward and a 5m collateral. They refunded the money to the correct amount and delivered the job anyways. Anyone who quits using them over this is dumb and shortsighted.

Leonard Harvey
Posted - 2010.06.05 11:14:00 - [25]
 

My Corp has used Red Frog Freight on many occasions and all cargo has arrived safely.

Since these events, I would be even more inclined to use their services because of the honesty and how they are approaching this situation. People who do not put the correct collateral on their contracts are asking to be scammed.



Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.05 11:19:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Sophie Daigneau
I once put up a contract with a 1b reward and a 5m collateral. They refunded the money to the correct amount and delivered the job anyways. Anyone who quits using them over this is dumb and shortsighted.


So *that's* where the sov money went.

Onyth
Had Holdings
Posted - 2010.06.05 13:47:00 - [27]
 

As most people in here, I most certainly agree that RF has absolutely no blame in this.

Jamie Hymenen
Posted - 2010.06.05 13:53:00 - [28]
 

Don't you do background checks on your frieghter pilots or can anyone just join up

mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.06.05 13:57:00 - [29]
 

I don't see how Red Frog can be held responsible for this as it is up to the contracteur to put in the appropriate collateral as other people have allready stated.

Also on the "mechanics are difficult to understand" thing. I had never used a courier contract before the first time I used Red Frog, so I simple joined their public channel and asked how it was done to get verification I had understood correctly from the instructions.

Cant remember who exactly I was talking to back then but they were very helpful and even checked that I had got the first one correct before I put up the other ones.

Outstanding service and this will in no way keep me from using Red Frog again.

Keep up the good work boys!

Ildryn
Posted - 2010.06.05 14:37:00 - [30]
 

I set all collateral to 1 bill when they ship for me. They have never complained and everything is shipped withing the day.
I also always add a few mill to the contract. Shipping must be boring. Hell they even shipped for me while at war once.


Congrats guys. I am still your loyal customer.


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