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Lyra Toras
Posted - 2010.06.04 01:01:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Lyra Toras on 12/06/2010 12:36:56
I've read the lore and understand the basic idea behind all the Empires, but what is life actually life for those that live inside?

The Caldari are hyper-capitalistic, does this necessarily mean life is unpleasent? Using the award winning "Bioshock" as an example, the city of Rapture was build on the tenents of capitalism, and it was beautiful, near utopic, before it was consumed by its own greed.
So are the Caldari always a caricature of uniforms, steel corridors and crew-cuts?

What about entertainment as well? Whats that like in the Caldari Empire? Just because they are focused on efficieny and power, doesn't mean they would not be self-indulgent with their industry, does it?

Would one find books, television, music, or even stripclubs featuring as forms of corporate industry in a Caldari society? Or would it always be boring for the residents, a cycle of work and sleep.

What about stuff like plantlife? Decorations? Warmth? Just because its a corporate dictatorship doesn't mean it can't look really really pretty Very Happy

Finally, where do capsuleers fit into all this? Are they looked down on, envied, or even pampered to the point of kings and queens?

That's all the questions I have right now. Mainly interested in Caldari, but it would be nice to hear about the other Empires too.

I know its a long post, but I wonder about these things.

Lets call it an active imagination Very Happy

Thuranni
Eldjotnar
Posted - 2010.06.04 08:03:00 - [2]
 

The first EVE novel deals extensively with life in the State, from the perspective of a low-class factory worker. It's pretty ****. Shifts are long, pay is low, prospects for promotion practically zero, class mobility non-existent. A super-wealthy ruling elite owns and controls everything. A corporate dystopia. Then of course Tibus Heth leads his worker's revolution like the Bolshevik he is, but that just replaced the corporate dictatorship with a militaristic fascist one. Whether conditions for the lower rungs of Caldari society improved isn't really elaborated; probably not.

Capsuleers are ridiculously, absurdly wealthy and powerful, and immortal to boot. There's a chronicle in the latest EON which mentions that the pay for a 6 week shift on a Capsuleer cruiser is 2,000 ISK, which is "more than what you'd make in five years at your old job". 2,000 ISK is practically zero for a EVE player.

Lt Forge
Pilots Of Honour
Aeternus.
Posted - 2010.06.04 19:02:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Lt Forge on 04/06/2010 19:02:03
Originally by: Thuranni
Capsuleers are ridiculously, absurdly wealthy and powerful, and immortal to boot. There's a chronicle in the latest EON which mentions that the pay for a 6 week shift on a Capsuleer cruiser is 2,000 ISK, which is "more than what you'd make in five years at your old job". 2,000 ISK is practically zero for a EVE player.


I really need to give my crew extra wages then Wink

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2010.06.04 20:25:00 - [4]
 

The Chronicles often kick off discussion about what life is like in the Empires. Taught Toughts for example has quite a lot of discussion about what life is like in Gallentean society compared to Caldari society. Other Chronicles address the point as well ...

Jacobs Gladedage
Posted - 2010.06.05 14:16:00 - [5]
 

Few chronicles that deal with it:
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=21-04-08
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=13-10-08
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=06-10-08
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=30-11-09

Honestly if you're a low class worker with no spectacular skills you're in for a tough ride with the caldari. But it's not necessarily the worst place as long as you fulfill your duties because generally speaking, eve, isn't exactly a place where you'll want to be a member of the lower class. ;)

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.06.07 07:19:00 - [6]
 

First, don't take everything TonyG writes in The Empyrean Age as definite PF. It directly contradicts Eve PF in many areas.

For example, although the factory on Piak may have been terrible, Eve PF in the Caldari description, is that the majority of Caldari live as well as the Gallente.

The Caldari aren't unfeeling drones, either. Their society is militaristic, yes, and driven, but they are also well known for having some of the most intense sports in the cluster. They have an entire mega-corporation Nugoeihuvi dedicated to entertainment and luxury goods.

(Read about the Mega-corps here.)

If you are interested in learning more, send me an eve-mail in game. I really enjoy exploring and explaining Caldari culture in life as part of Eve-RP.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.07 08:52:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Vikarion
First, don't take everything TonyG writes in The Empyrean Age as definite PF. It directly contradicts Eve PF in many areas.

For example, although the factory on Piak may have been terrible, Eve PF in the Caldari description, is that the majority of Caldari live as well as the Gallente.

The Caldari aren't unfeeling drones, either. Their society is militaristic, yes, and driven, but they are also well known for having some of the most intense sports in the cluster. They have an entire mega-corporation Nugoeihuvi dedicated to entertainment and luxury goods.

(Read about the Mega-corps here.)

If you are interested in learning more, send me an eve-mail in game. I really enjoy exploring and explaining Caldari culture in life as part of Eve-RP.


I am sorry but you are wrong with that. What TonyG wrote is PF, it is material directly published by CCP and detailing the events that led to the War.

What is described is also a single world of the Caldari State and the life of the workers in one of their Megacorps and also one that was already in deep economical trouble when the story began. The life of a worker in one of the more liberal corporations, Ishukone for example, is likely quite different and the same goes for life in one of the more militaristic corporations like Lai Dai.

The beauty of the EVE universe is, that it is so large that practically any style of living might find a place there. Or compare it to the life of a spacer family, in the same empire there are huge differences between the life of people living in one of the huge permanent stations and the ones being less well off.

The small deadspace structures or hastily put together habitation modules and small-scale mining posts are like trailer parks compared to the large stations. There are also the stations that exist only for industrial purposes, with the example of the POS where life is likely comparable to that on an oil rig in our times. Razz

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.06.07 09:38:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
I am sorry but you are wrong with that. What TonyG wrote is PF, it is material directly published by CCP and detailing the events that led to the War.

What is described is also a single world of the Caldari State and the life of the workers in one of their Megacorps and also one that was already in deep economical trouble when the story began. The life of a worker in one of the more liberal corporations, Ishukone for example, is likely quite different and the same goes for life in one of the more militaristic corporations like Lai Dai.


My point is that what TonyG wrote is not definite PF when it contradicts the Chronicles, scientific articles, and short stories hosted on this website. When something TonyG wrote contradicts something written here, until otherwise corrected, PF from this site overrides TonyG. Such is the case with the intimation in The Empyrean Age that 95% of the Caldari State lives in poverty, and that life is miserable for the average Caldari.

This is directly in conflict with other statements made in Chronicles and in the race description. Therefore, not everything in TEA, or even TBL, is definitely PF.

Authors make mistakes. When they do, and settings conflict in circumstances such as this, it is typically held to take the setting as overriding a particular author's view. Otherwise, you end up being yanked all over the place by different authors making different mistakes, and continuity becomes impossible.

Thus, my statement that he should not take everything in the book as definitely being Prime Fiction. Instead, he should read the Chronicles, read the race descriptions and short stories, and etc. I did not say that nothing in the book was PF - claiming that the book does not contain PF on the invasion and the events that led up to it would be ridiculous - merely that some things contradict already laid-down PF, and in that case, setting PF as established here takes precedence.


Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.07 11:00:00 - [9]
 

A challenge for all of y'all: let a thread like this reach, say, the third page without mentioning TonyG. pretty much guarantee it's not going to happen.

Anyway, life for Joe Caldari is really not going to be that dissimilar to life for anyone in a modern western society, other than the obvious difference of the lack of a democratic government. No state welfare either. but your average Caldari's going to wake up at home, make their breakfast with groceries purchased (and possibly delivered) from their local store (who buy their stock from Caldari Provisions). He might travel to work via public transport, using a season pass that he either purchased himself or was issued as a job perk, . He'll work eight hours, go home, order takeout food and watch a Splinterz game on Echelon Sports IV, then hit the club, get drunk and maybe hook up with somebody.


here's one of my favourite Caldari images:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Notice the girl near the front with the big star tattoo on her back? That's not some kind of military rank tattoo, that's a full back ink job she got for purely aesthetic reasons. She probably has to cover it up at work, but when she's at a rally like that, or out and about on her own time, she can wear a halter-top and show it off.

That's probably the best image I can think of to show that life in the State is just... life. People have corporate scrip to spend on pretty much whatever they want, and she's chosen to spend it on something that makes her stand out from the crowd a bit. Doing so hasn't ruined her future prospects or ostracized her - she's there at a political rally with hundreds or thousands of other people. I bet the long-haired guy on the left is thinking "Wow, she's got an awesome tattoo."

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.07 13:57:00 - [10]
 

I think we have found a variation of Godwin's Law here. Very Happy


Tony's Law:
As an online discussion on EVE PF grows longer, the probability of comparisons on TonyG's interpretation on Caldari culture and older PF material approaches 1.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.06.07 15:16:00 - [11]
 

You know... you guys are like trekkies. Once you set yourselves in a certain storyline, you'll scream at any author who publishes canon that differs ever so slightly from what you know. "Oh no, in the story we require 3 dilithium crystals to reach warp 5, but the Star Trek technical manual (nasal nerd voice on) CLEARLY (nasal nerd voice off) states that..." etc etc ad nauseam. Sure, there might be slight errors... but why can't you just let them slide?

I actually liked Tony Gonzales' story. It was amazingly well written. Having written for CCP before, I can tell you that when writing about PF, you are *given* the subject matter by CCP so you know what you're saying, and not talking out of your ass. Tony wrote exactly what CCP wanted him to, and as such, his writing ought to be considered canon.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2010.06.07 17:17:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 07/06/2010 17:19:08
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
You know... you guys are like trekkies. Once you set yourselves in a certain storyline, you'll scream at any author who publishes canon that differs ever so slightly from what you know. "Oh no, in the story we require 3 dilithium crystals to reach warp 5, but the Star Trek technical manual (nasal nerd voice on) CLEARLY (nasal nerd voice off) states that..." etc etc ad nauseam. Sure, there might be slight errors... but why can't you just let them slide?

I actually liked Tony Gonzales' story. It was amazingly well written. Having written for CCP before, I can tell you that when writing about PF, you are *given* the subject matter by CCP so you know what you're saying, and not talking out of your ass. Tony wrote exactly what CCP wanted him to, and as such, his writing ought to be considered canon.


For me, "like" is different from "credit."

Tony G. has an established problem with canon, dating to his recasting of the Raven in "Ruthless" as the spiffy new ship and the Scorpion as the old warhorse. And his plot, with a Raven prototype falling into Gurista hands, would work exceedingly well as an explanation for the Rattlesnake-- if that Raven weren't a Raven!

It sounds to me as though CCP asked him to write a story "about" the history of the Raven and Scorpion, then, when he got them backwards, said, "What the hell, it's a good story and wouldn't work so well if we made you switch them back."

Tony G. has, I gather, complained in much the same way you have, Istvaan, about fans' dedication to orthodox canon. But there's a good reason for it in our case: we play characters in this world, and we need the world to be coherent.

So, while I respect Tony G.'s ability as a writer, he has real problems with worldbuilding. And being as worldbuilding is the most important aspect of PF, from where I stand, that's a pretty big problem.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.07 20:26:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
I actually liked Tony Gonzales' story. It was amazingly well written.


wow, and people give ME stick for describing his writing as "entertaining but nothing special".

Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2010.06.07 21:59:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Seriphyn Inhonores on 07/06/2010 22:04:11
Edited by: Seriphyn Inhonores on 07/06/2010 22:01:09
The more people describe the Caldari way of life as normal, the more boring it gets.

We have four separate factions with their own PF for a reason.

Quote:
Notice the girl near the front with the big star tattoo on her back? That's not some kind of military rank tattoo, that's a full back ink job she got for purely aesthetic reasons. She probably has to cover it up at work, but when she's at a rally like that, or out and about on her own time, she can wear a halter-top and show it off. That's probably the best image I can think of to show that life in the State is just... life. People have corporate scrip to spend on pretty much whatever they want, and she's chosen to spend it on something that makes her stand out from the crowd a bit. Doing so hasn't ruined her future prospects or ostracized her - she's there at a political rally with hundreds or thousands of other people. I bet the long-haired guy on the left is thinking "Wow, she's got an awesome tattoo."


That just eliminates the whole purpose of CCP hammering the fact "Caldari are profit-driven, collectivist and hyper-capitalistic". This description is no different from the Gallente, where the differences are hammered in PF, and thus all flavour is eliminated.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.07 23:42:00 - [15]
 

Well it's been said fairly frequently that the Caldari and Gallente are like unholy reflections of one another.

But seriously, how does the fact that some Caldari chick has a big back tattoo change the general cultural and political outlook of the society she lives in? Her choice of personal decoration has no bearing at all on the greater structure of the State. what it DOES do is illustrate what life is likely to be like for the "man on the street".

I don't mean to imply that her life is what we'd consider "normal". somebody living in the State basically has zero say in the decisions that trickle down into their life, and is generally quite comfortable with that fact. But there are some realities of being human that just aren't ever going to change - the need to live somewhere, have a job, have hobbies and a social life are always going to exist, regardless of the structure of the nation.

Collectivism does not mean "every strives to be identical to everyone else", it means "everyone strives to work in synergy everyone else". That still leaves plenty of room for touches of individual expression like haircut, clothes, piercings and ink. Hyper-capitalistic just means that everything has a price tag and nothing is publicly owned - if you want to go to the park in the State, you pay admission, whereas in the Federation it would be municipal. "Profit-driven" is meaningless if nobody's prepared to spend their profits on things, and obviously there's a market for tattoo artists in the State.

The difference isn't in the details between these two cultures, it's in the macroscopic shape and structure of the whole. Any given person's day to day life is going to be driven by the same pressures as exist right here and now on Earth. You need a house, a job, food, a circle of friends. you want luxuries, hobbies and entertainment. The brand names and pop culture will vary, but the pattern of needs and desires, and the available responses to them, don't.

as a real life example, compare the USA with the UK. if I had a doppelgänger living over the Pond, he'd have much the same objectives as me. the fiddling details like the make of car he drives, the TV channels he watches, the sporting teams he supports and the fact that he'd shop at Wal*Mart whereas I shop at Aldi's would change, but the objectives - house, job, friends and family, all that, stay the same.

zoom out a bit and then you've got these two wildly different interpretations of the word "democracy", one with a ceremonial monarchy and several centuries of traditional framework underpinning it. The other based on a written constitution, a presidential system, and laws codified on the regional rather than national level. gun ownership is commonplace and an integral part of life in the USA, and something totally exceptional round here. The ethnic attitudes are different - Brits, I've noticed, tend to be a LOT more accommodating of other ethnicities.

I think it would be very disappointing if the day-to-day life of the citizenry of New Eden was wildly different from empire to empire. It would seem contrived and artificial to me. the fact that there's common ground and a sense of normalcy there actually increases the interest for me, because it makes it easier to imagine myself in that world, and think about the exceptional, large differences that make it New Eden as opposed to Earth.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.07 23:56:00 - [16]
 

besides which, think in terms of the reaction to that back tattoo. In the Federation, if you chatted with twelve people, you'd see a dozen similarly extravagant expressions of individuality, because that's the Federal attitude. everyone's striving to be a unique and beautiful snowflake, and forgetting that when you look out the window in the morning, it all just looks white and cold. So in order to stand out from the crush, they have to go to truly bizarre lengths, like the bodymodding scene in Burning Life.

on the other hand, you've got the State, where people prefer to feel like they're part of something grander. Expressions of personality are going to be more subtle in that environment. Subtle things like Tibus Heth's "Employee of the month" watch are what stand out.

People are always going to be different from one another, and they're going to express that fact - it's not natural to try and be indistinguishable from your neighbour, even in a collectivist society. It's just that the volume's cranked up to 11 in the Federation and fairly muted in the State. In the Federation, nobody would bat an eyelash to see that big star tattoo, but it stands out in that image among all the coats and shirts as something unusual and exceptional.

Kain Hakonen
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.08 04:33:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Kain Hakonen on 08/06/2010 04:45:08
Edited by: Kain Hakonen on 08/06/2010 04:43:12
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
You know... you guys are like trekkies. Once you set yourselves in a certain storyline, you'll scream at any author who publishes canon that differs ever so slightly from what you know. "Oh no, in the story we require 3 dilithium crystals to reach warp 5, but the Star Trek technical manual (nasal nerd voice on) CLEARLY (nasal nerd voice off) states that..." etc etc ad nauseam. Sure, there might be slight errors... but why can't you just let them slide?

I actually liked Tony Gonzales' story. It was amazingly well written. Having written for CCP before, I can tell you that when writing about PF, you are *given* the subject matter by CCP so you know what you're saying, and not talking out of your ass. Tony wrote exactly what CCP wanted him to, and as such, his writing ought to be considered canon.

I don't think solid continuity is such a bizarre ideal. If a descendant of Tolstoy went back and re-wrote War and Peace to include teenage vampires and told everyone to shut up and accept it as the original because "change is good" or some nonsense, he'd be mauled by the normally quiet literary community in a nerd-attack that would put a Trek convention to shame.

There's an established universe, live with it. Gnauton, Ginger, Abraxas etc. seem to get this, and their writings are generally a natural extension of what came before. Stuff like 95% of the State lives in poverty and the Raven being newer than the Scorpion aren't small things we can ignore, as they change fundamental truths (or worse, don't make any sense).


 

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