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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.01.21 15:25:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: X Gallentius on 21/01/2011 15:25:13
The problem with a direct lp payout without a cap on total resources(unfortunately) is that one set of alts will run plexes risk free and the other set of alts will run plexes risk free - no conflict.

Fighting over limited resources (hopefully) means that there will be gangs going around trying to hunt those plexers. How these gangs that hunt plexers get paid... I don't know, but I bet there could be some sort of gentlemen's agreement with the guys who actually run the plexes.


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.01.21 16:34:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 21/01/2011 16:34:37
Edited by: Cearain on 21/01/2011 16:34:13
Originally by: X Gallentius
Edited by: X Gallentius on 21/01/2011 15:25:13
The problem with a direct lp payout without a cap on total resources(unfortunately) is that one set of alts will run plexes risk free and the other set of alts will run plexes risk free - no conflict.

Fighting over limited resources (hopefully) means that there will be gangs going around trying to hunt those plexers. How these gangs that hunt plexers get paid... I don't know, but I bet there could be some sort of gentlemen's agreement with the guys who actually run the plexes.





I'm thinking I may not understand fully what you are saying here. But I to don’t want this to turn into some sort of new way to get isk without pvp. However, it seems to me that with the limited direct payout described there would still be a lot of conflict. Consider these points:


1) Because the other militia knows exactly where you are plexing as soon as you enter the plex you will almost certainly get company. You will probably find there are people doing plexes within 1 or 2 jumps of you. Wouldn’t you go check it out if you were roaming?


2) As long as plexing pays much less than fw missions and high sec missions people will not plex primarily as a means of income. If you just want to carebear you would still be *much* better off doing fw missions. Consider how many lp you can make per hour doing fw missions. Whatever that may be.

Now consider how many lp you will get plexing. Even if no one responded to the calls the plex timers take long enough that you would be much better off isk wise running fw missions. Considering a minor plex timer runs 10 minutes. So with *ideal* circumstances where you 1)never get chased out, or blown up, 2) you are able to do it solo, and 3)there is 0 travel time you could only do 6 in an hour. So 6 x750 lp = 4,500 lp/hour. For medium plexes there is a 15 minute timer so again assuming the same completely unrealistic ideal conditions you could only run 4 per hour yielding 14,000 lp per hour.

Even if you have multiple accounts you of course should then be able to multiply the amount of isk you make by running fw missions as well so that’s a wash. But even if it doesn’t scale exactly the same the lp gains from plexing even given unrealistic conditions are not even coming close to missioning.

If you want to fight rats and run from pvp you still have the fw missions. That will still be the much better way to make isk. This lp for plexing will just be an attempt to help defray the substantial losses of ships pilots who fight for occupancy will no doubt incur.

These changes to occupancy plexing will make it a way to get constant, good quality, small scale pvp without getting blobbed. Something ccp has never been able to do in any other setting. I am convinced that with these changes fw plexing would be a *huge* draw for pvpers and there would be more than enough conflict.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.03.21 21:35:00 - [63]
 

Here is an idea to make fw occupancy meaningful without making it so everyone joins the winning faction:

Lets say Amarr gain occupancy of the system Evati. Right now there are a few minmatar npc stations there. Well lets say that with time after Amarr take over, there is a certain percentage chance that those stations become amarr npc stations. So a Boundless Creation might become a Carthum Conglomerate! The idea is that companies are generally not well served to open up factories in places that are occupied by the enemy. They would tend to fair poorly for numerous reasons.

In other words the players are shaping the universe. It would no longer be a universe that CCP made and always remained the same.

The chance of this happening may depend on how long occupancy is held. Say every 6 months you roll the dice on any enemy faction corps leaving. There may also be a chance (smaller chance) that a corp from the sister faction would move in { so perhaps Lai Dai (Caldari) would move in. There would be new agents that go in to that etc.

The RP story would be Boundless decides to close down facilities in Evati due to a sudden increase in taxes and sells station to Carthum/Lai Dai. (or some such)

Now it would be an indirect benefit because you usually have high standings with the faction you fight for in fw. So you would gain new agents and resources for those in your faction. But then again if one side loses many agents the value of that lp should see a slight rise because the goods are more scarce.

So it would be a decent storyline consequence that wouldn’t likely lead to a lopsided war.

Would this work for actual militia stations? That might be going too far and lead to a lopsided war. But maybe not. If they added some decent faction specific items to the fw lp store there would be a natural balance. Those lp would be worth more. I certainly think many amarr mission runners would fight to keep huola.

If for example minmatar took over huola 24th crusade station and it became a tribal liberation force station then the missions would have to send minmatar back into minmatar space. The agent might say something like “ I figured we were stretching ourselves too thin in capturing this station. Now the amarr are starting to attack us back at our home stations …”


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.03.23 15:00:00 - [64]
 

Ok so I was thinking about this idea and figured out there may be a problem - ecm. Lets say your in a minor plex. What is the best ship to use? well a griffin with multspecs will perma jam every other frigate. So they would need two or three ships to drive you out. Not very fun.

But there are various solutions that would actually not only solve this problem but I think make fw plexing overall.

Here is one potential solution:

Inside each races military complex they have boosted the strength for their own targeting systems. So in an Amarr complex radar would be boosted 20Xs. (I’m sure pie would be happy about this) In other words, jamming an amarr ship in its own military won't work.

If you enter the minmatar plex then using the ladar would be boosted 20xs. (I’m sure Pie just decided this idea stinks)

Now so that both sides do not always have to use the same 2 races of ships (“caldari and gallente” or “minmatar and amarr”) We could have some allied plexes spawn in each allies territory. So say 25% of the plexes in minmatar space are gallente military compounds. Some amarr would be found in caldari etc. And yes allies should be able to cap plexes for their allies.


Lets face it ecm is nice when you are trying to fight outnumbered but it sucks for solo/and really small scale pvp. On the whole I think this would chill the use of ecm in general where it isn’t an issue. If it were to become an issue people could start using the correct race ships to cap the plexes.

Moreover I think this would add a certain amount to the rp of fw.


Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.03.23 23:40:00 - [65]
 

Problems:

1) FW occupancy usually has little to do with pvp. Pvp and occupancy are often very different types of activity. Or put differently FW occupancy involves too much pve and not enough pvp.

2) FW pvp too often consists attacking someone and then getting blobbed.

3) Too much time is spent shipping up or down.

4) Too much time is spent looking for a similar sized gang you may want to engage as opposed to run from or that will just run from you.

Solution:

1) Remove npcs from occupancy related plexes.
Npcs in the plexes ruin it. Who wants to fight with your ability to win gimped by some intangible amount of rat dps and ewar from rats? It’s lame fighting when you are under fire and ewar from npcs. Really I don’t want npcs whoring my killmails anyway.


2) Inform Militias when players enter plexes!

When someone from fw enters a complex gate all militias should know who entered, where, ship types and the plex type. This is intel that should just be provided via a separate chat channel. After all if a system is contested that means both sides likely have npc spies there giving info. (here I do not mean player spies but npc militia spies that will post in the channel but they do not fly around in ships. They are more like bureaucratic spies. The only way their presence would be known in game is they would post in the “plex intel” chat channel) This way the players could get a gang out there to fight the enemy pvp gang before the plex runs. No npcs in the fight. Instead information about where you can find pvp!



3) Have more plexes pop up through out the regions and throughout the day not just down time.

4) don’t require scanners just have the plexes appear.


Comments:

If ccp made those two changes I think plexing would make fw the absolute best pvp mechanic in the game. Will it solve everything? No but it will, I believe substantially cut down on the problems I listed above.

I would point out 3) plexes shouldn’t mainly spawn at downtime. They should be spawning throughout the day and frequently. I thought the csm already recommended this to ccp – though I could be wrong.
How will this make plexing more of a pvp activity? By removing the npcs people will fit their ships for pvp. There will be no trade offs that need to be made for dealing with the various rats. Fit your ship for pvp and go capture systems.

Won’t this lead to people just flying noob ships in plexs? That is where the second change comes in. Currently if you are going to do plexes the most effective way is to get in a small ship that can tank the npcs and hope the timer runs before the enemy knows your even there. The current mechanics make this the smart way to plex. :snip:


Bold = Very good idea. The whole Plex idea is a little odd; unless you conider it as a 'moving enemy militia' site. A good idea, would be to have the 'little teal text, pop-up in Militia chat; with, "Enemy Fleet spotted in #System#; move to counter, advance, ASAP", or some such. You could also add FW Plexes to the Map; highlighting all current, Militia activity for the faction you are in. Incursion like features; could be added to the Journal, for major Plexes. Telling you what ships, and pilots to expect; is unneccessary, and would FW PvP entirely. That bring's us to the next one.

Italic's = If they are indeed, moving enemy fleets; then you should have to scan them down. ..or, at least, run your scanner to detect them. If you want to 'detect enemy pilots; look in local, and use Combat probes.

Underlined = If the plex is there, because of enemy fleet movement; why would'nt there be a fleet present. Kind of ruins the whole idea; does it not. Player fleets responding; are Elite reinforcements. Remove that; and it's just PvP. Go Pirate.You don't lose Standings that way..


Omega Sunset
Caldari Roughnecks
Posted - 2011.03.24 22:08:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Cearain


3) Have more plexes pop up through out the regions and throughout the day not just down time.

To me this is the big breaking point. Part of subscribing to EVE was to get involved in factions (my fav thus far being SWG pre-CU/NGE), but I've been holding off here thus far; from training a faction character. 4AM my time is no time to log-in for me. Needs to be a system that is the best points from old SWG and old Planetside imo (mostly regarding bases/plexes), but this is simply broken here. Needs to be taken care of before incarna is released. Thought CCP was serious about PvP until I researched the faction system. I'm just turning into another highsec carebear for the most part :( and that's no life. Almost worse than being a highsec wardec carebear corp.


X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.03.25 13:41:00 - [67]
 

They've fixed half of it. Plexes respawn immediately after they are capped - if that plex respawns in a system with same occupancy. Otherwise it waits until after DT to respawn.

Ex: Gallente defensive plex respawns in Gallente held system - respawns right away.
Ex: Gallente defensive plex respawns in Caldari held system - respawns after DT.



Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.03.27 03:15:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Cassus Temon
Italic's = If they are indeed, moving enemy fleets; then you should have to scan them down. ..or, at least, run your scanner to detect them. If you want to 'detect enemy pilots; look in local, and use Combat probes.

Underlined = If the plex is there, because of enemy fleet movement; why would'nt there be a fleet present. Kind of ruins the whole idea; does it not. Player fleets responding; are Elite reinforcements. Remove that; and it's just PvP. Go Pirate.You don't lose Standings that way..




I’m glad you like some of the ideas posted. The issue I take with scanning is not really all that important but I do think it slows the pvp action down a bit. Also having to scan for them all does not make sense.

The FW complexes are not just npc ships. They are compounds and bases that you enter through an acceleration gate. Inside there are npcs that “spawn” apparently from nothingness. But the compounds do not move at least not for 24 hours.

That is why its actually odd to be in the Amarr Militia and have to go warping around scanning looking for *our own* military compounds, so we can defend them. Who lost the map?

As for the *enemy* compounds it is possible we would have to go looking for them. But it would seem equally possible that someone else in the militia would have located an enemy outpost and simply let us know so that we can go capture it.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.03.28 15:51:00 - [69]
 

If you want to do fw occupancy you are by far best served by being online right after downtime. If you can't be online at that time you will have a very limited effect compared to those who can.


Originally by: X Gallentius
They've fixed half of it. Plexes respawn immediately after they are capped - if that plex respawns in a system with same occupancy. Otherwise it waits until after DT to respawn.

Ex: Gallente defensive plex respawns in Gallente held system - respawns right away.
Ex: Gallente defensive plex respawns in Caldari held system - respawns after DT.




Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.04.21 14:11:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 21/04/2011 14:23:11
Originally by: Cassus Temon
Remove that; and it's just PvP. Go Pirate.You don't lose Standings that way..




Going pirate means only flying larger ships that can tank the sentry guns or spending an even longer time looking for decent pvp. I'm not really interested in scanning down miners or pve ships.

The concern over standings seems a bit overdone. You gain standings for the faction you fight for and only lose standings for the faction you fight against. Its not that big of a deal. Its not nearly as bad as screwing up your sec status.

In faction war I generally will fight just about anyone I run across. Yet about 90% of my fights are/were against the opposing faction. I can "go pirate" and stay in fw. But leaving faction war just means I will have about 10xs fewer pvp encounters. That makes the problem worse.

I really don’t have hours and hours to spend warping from system to system for a decent fight. Joining a large war like fw should be a solution for people like me. I should be informed where the fighting is and what is needed so I can go fight. Instead finding decent pvp in this game is like finding a needle in a haystack.

If you have all sorts of time I guess eve is ok. But for those of us who want a bit more action on any given night – eve currently fails hard. FW should be the answer but it’s not.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.21 20:58:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Cearain
If you want to do fw occupancy you are by far best served by being online right after downtime. If you can't be online at that time you will have a very limited effect compared to those who can.

Not entirely true.

"Overall activity" wins out over "after downtime" when you are defending or attacking an area with a large number of systems that are held by the same side (the baseline status quo right now) since you can force respawns into those systems throughout the day.

"After downtime" beats "overall activity" when you are defending or attacking one system that has been occupied while all the other systems are occupied by the other side (Ladistier a couple of weeks ago for example). In this case, ALL of the respawns into the system happen at after downtime.



Bienator II
Posted - 2011.04.23 03:18:00 - [72]
 

there should be a reward or a strategical reason why you should care about conquering systems.

a few examples:
- FW missions from agents only spawn in conquered systems (lvl5 missions? something cool at least)
- npcs in plexes have more bounty as usual (but only for the faction holding the system)
- combine two eve features: open a wormhole connecting the system with the militia home system (reinforcements...)

make enemies suffer:
- decreased lp/rewards (the more systems occupied the worse)
- we have incursions... they have system wide implications, lets do something similar
- yes. docking rights

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.05.02 17:29:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 02/05/2011 17:29:43
Although I agree that there could and should be some sort of effect from gaining occupancy, I dont think that addresses the real problem.

The real problem is running fw plexes is a boring activity often involving pve and not a fun one involving small gang pvp.

"It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), ….111 faction warfare complexes were captured … I did not kill anyone in the process..” Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00

That is what needs to be fixed. This proposal would fix it.



X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.05.02 18:40:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: X Gallentius on 02/05/2011 19:11:16
Your proposal doesn't solve the problem. We have guys running around low sec all day long looking for mission runners and plexers. We know where they are. We, and they, know how to counter NPCs.

The plexers (and mission runners), the ones who want a fight, give us a fight. Great fun!

The other plexers (and mission runners), the ones interested in system occupancy (or making isk), run away and don't give a fight. Boring!

You are then either forced to orbit a button for 20 minutes (or hang out for 12 hours) to grief, err, keep them from acheiving their objectives.

Solution: Ignore the occupancy weenies who don't want to actually fight and instead go have some fun finding plexers that do.

I am beginning to believe that having a resolution to the conflict not based on absolute time is the key to more fun. Offensive plexing: Kill all the NPCs and you're done. Offensive Mission Running: Complete mission you're done. Defensive plexing: ??, Defensive Mission running: Some poison pill like Cutting the Net that effectively fails their mission if they don't fight you.

Figure out a good mechanic for defensive plexing that doesn't involve orbiting a button for 20 minutes when the offensive plexer bails, and you figure out the occupancy solution.

Perhaps give the defender the right to close the plex but not gain any points towards occupancy after he pushes the offensive plexer out (???).


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.05.02 19:30:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: X Gallentius
Edited by: X Gallentius on 02/05/2011 18:40:37
Your proposal doesn't solve the problem. We have guys running around low sec all day long looking for mission runners and plexers. We know where they are. ....




I'm not sure who the "we" is in your quote. But your entire militia does not know where every plexer is. I can’t emphasize enough how this will change fw plexing.

I have sat in plexes for over an hour. (I don’t even start the timer because I don’t want the npc agro on me or the enemy) Mostly I’m in ships ranging from t1 frigates to t1 cruisers. I find it very hard to believe that *no one* in the entire opposing militia wanted a pvp fight with those sorts of ships. And yes I have spent some time on the gallente front sitting in a merlin in minor and medium plexes waiting for fights. If you knew I was there, why didn’t you come fight?

Seriously get a t1 hull and go sit in plexes. I think you will find you only get about 1 decent fight per hour! I had been doing that for months, but an hour is too long to wait for a single 60 second fight. So I am letting my accounts run out and will resub when ccp develops something where I can get about 4-8 decent small scale fights an hour.

Let’s face it you didn’t know I was there- even if you were logged on. Even some of the people in local likely didn’t know where in local I was. Like you say currently you go chasing someone around. Which we both agree is bad gameplay.

But if we were alerted where the plexes were being taken then we would not need to “chase” people. The best way to do plexes would be to split up your gang throughout the relevant low sec regions. That way the person running would have nowhere to go since there would be someone else a few jumps over chasing him out of a plex. In the meantime you would be doing plexes yourself waiting for others to come to fight you or going over a jump or two to fight or chase the enemy.

You would be on teamspeak/vent deciding if you wanted to gang up on a larger target or how to best use each and every pilot throughout the fw regions, instead of just telling the blob to hold on gate and call primaries.

That’s right, the best way to win the occupancy war would be to break up that blob.

Pretty much everyone in eve who wants allot of, easy to find, quality, small gang pvp would join fw in order to do plex fighting. That is allot of people! I and many others would actually start playing the game again.

The inside of a plex would not be a good place to go to avoid pvp. These regions would fill up with lots of players stockpiling t1 insurable ships to go pvp in right close to the action.

Suddenly capturing 111 plexes would actually be an accomplishment! Winning the occupancy war would actually be an accomplishment right up there will winning the alliance tournament. Suddenly being good at fw plexing is seen as meritorious and doing the plexes would be fun 23/7.


X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.05.02 20:42:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: X Gallentius on 02/05/2011 20:48:21
Originally by: Cearain
I'm not sure who the "we" is in your quote. But your entire militia does not know where every plexer is. I can’t emphasize enough how this will change fw plexing.

People will (have) ignore(d) the broadcasts after the "Nth" time they run out to Maintenault only to get blueballed by a plexing alt. Your "reward" for pushing them out is to sit on button for 20 minutes. Problem not solved.

Note: If somebody wants fights in a plex, they open them in OMS, Heyd, Tama, or some other system that had lots of wts and pirates in it. Lots of good fights.

Edit: Buy yeah maybe it would work as a good "dating service" if the names of the pilots involved were broadcast as well.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.05.02 21:46:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: X Gallentius
Edited by: X Gallentius on 02/05/2011 20:48:21
Originally by: Cearain
I'm not sure who the "we" is in your quote. But your entire militia does not know where every plexer is. I can’t emphasize enough how this will change fw plexing.

People will (have) ignore(d) the broadcasts after the "Nth" time they run out to Maintenault only to get blueballed by a plexing alt. Your "reward" for pushing them out is to sit on button for 20 minutes. Problem not solved.

Note: If somebody wants fights in a plex, they open them in OMS, Heyd, Tama, or some other system that had lots of wts and pirates in it. Lots of good fights.

Edit: Buy yeah maybe it would work as a good "dating service" if the names of the pilots involved were broadcast as well.


Yes a dating service might be a good analogy. More like speed dating but you do more than talk. And yes the pilot names should be broadcast as well. But I will tell you hide and seek plexing would no longer be viable. People will go into plexes with the expectation of getting fights and those expectations will be met.

There are too many players in eve crying out for small gang pvp for this to be anything other than a huge hit. This would change eve from a game that only people with way too much time on their hands can play to a game that people would be logging in and getting good fights in a matter of 3-5 minutes! It would be a constant rush.

I will admit I didn’t spend much time at the Gallente front but when I did I went to the places you mention. No fights just allot of sitting around inside plexes.

I did the same in Kourmonen and Ammamake and Auga and Kamela and Dal. Lots of sitting around wasting time very little fighting. That is what the current eve is all about. But it could offer allot more.


Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.03 02:37:00 - [78]
 

Sorry if this is naive, but can't we just pay militia for military conquests (and fine the losers)? Won't that incentivize them to attack and defend their complexes? How much you lose depends on how many NPCs on your side that were killed. (presumably they aren't capsuleers, so the Navies are hiring these militia to bolster their forces) Same for rewards, get paid depending on the number of hostile NPCs that are killed. That may take a little of the heat off pvp once NPC civi navies show up in a fight, as there is money to be won/lost.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.05.03 07:03:00 - [79]
 

In the downtime frenzy when it still existed, both sides would have near perfect intel for an entire constellation at a time and 'good fights' were not happening more than once/twice per day.

Eve players are risk averse by nature so if they can outnumber the target they will.
Lets say you give out plex location and pilot name, rabbits are soon identified and ignored while fighters are swarmed which in turn makes them rabbits .. all the while the rabbits are closing plexes at will.

If the aim is to close plexes (which it is for all standing grinding alts) then the life of a rabbit is the only sensible route ..

In short: You cannot polish the current system to any kind of shine. It has to be deconstructed and rebuilt if it is to have any sort of meaning or value.
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Sorry if this is naive, but can't we just pay militia for military conquests (and fine the losers)? ...

You would need to make it pretty damn high pay to make it worthwhile, especially if timers are to stay .. ISK/hr is all that matters to the people you would attract.
Note: You already get pretty good ISK for offensive plexing by way of tags and loot just not a widely known fact.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.05.03 13:35:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
In the downtime frenzy when it still existed, both sides would have near perfect intel for an entire constellation at a time and 'good fights' were not happening more than once/twice per day.

Eve players are risk averse by nature so if they can outnumber the target they will.

That is not because Eve players are genetically cowards. It’s because the game mechanics never reward anyone to engage in anything except blob warfare. The game mechanics proposed in this thread would make it so the strategy is no longer to blob up but to stay spread out and fight.

Again it’s really easy to make the fighting spread out. Make a mechanic where people have to be at several places at the same time. Just because ccp has never added that to the game doesn’t mean it can’t be done – or even that it would be difficult to do.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

Lets say you give out plex location and pilot name, rabbits are soon identified and ignored while fighters are swarmed which in turn makes them rabbits .. all the while the rabbits are closing plexes at will.

If the aim is to close plexes (which it is for all standing grinding alts) then the life of a rabbit is the only sensible route ..

Rabbits won’t be ignored but they will constantly be frustrated if they try to do what they do now. If you want to gain occupancy it will no longer be a good idea to form up a big blob. So you will no longer have blobs *chasing* a rabbit. The side that has pilots spread out throughout the entire FW regions will win the occupancy war.

The best way to win would be to coordinate pilots throughout the entire war area! Having separate squads that can cover say 7 systems each call this a “sector” or “zone.” These squads might be between 1-20 people. You don’t need to go chasing anyone if they move into a different squads territory. The squad that is there already capping plexes in the area, can just hop over a jump or two and kick him out. You can stay put capping plexes in your “sector” or “zone” while the rabbit wastes time running around. The side that spends more time running instead of running timers will not win.

If they run you let them run and continue to cap plexes. Let’s say the rabbit runs 10 jumps from you and goes into another 20 minute plex. You ignore him. When the intel pops up you can talk on vent and let your militia know that this person is a rabbit. That way your own militia will not need to send too many resources (good pilots) to kick him out. The *local* militia covering that sector can let him waste 15 minutes then make a jump or 2, kick him out and cap his plex.

If he wants to go running several jumps and start another timer that would be fine let him. He is just wasting his own time not the time of people who want to fight. When he gets to new plex the intel will pop up again and someone in your militia can hop over a jump or 2 and kick him out again before he can cap a plex. They can run but they can’t hide. No one needs to do any “chasing” and rabbits accomplish nothing.


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.05.03 13:37:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 03/05/2011 13:44:44
If people can not fight for themselves in plexes they will not be as useful to the militia. This is because they will constantly need to pull pilots, that could otherwise be running plexes, to their defense. If one militia is bad at pvp and needs 3 people to kick out 2 of the opposing militia (same ship classes) then they will need a larger active militia.

If your side is outnumbered this can of course be a problem. I don’t think eve should change that. But there are things you can do. You can set up coordinated attacks in different regions. Lets say The other side has a blob of 50 people but you only have 20 up in taff. Well you can try to focus your 20 in frigates and capture minors. Or you can use jump clones or shuttles and get your 20 in BSes to cap majors in a distant system like tzvi.

Yes of course the smaller force will always be at a disadvantage but because there are these different sized plexes with ship restrictions the smaller side – if it is well organized and equipped can still bring a fight to different regions. Allot of how this will play out is how fast can one militia be in the *right sized already fit* ships in a different region capping plexes! The better organized militias although smaller militia will have plexes capped across the universe before the bigger blobbier militia can organize resistance.

Also there can be other things that help smaller militias. Let’s say caldari have all of their systems occupied and already occupy half of the gallente systems. The mechanics could then start letting gallente have cruisers in minors. That way even if one side is outnumbered there can still be good fights. The storyline idea is that these last systems are true bastions of Gallente loyalists so the gate engineers give secret intel to the gallente side to help them.

I just ask that you think about what I am describing and ask yourself if it wouldn’t be great. If you agree it would be great but think the op proposals won’t bring that about then ask why and what would need to be changed.



X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.05.03 15:17:00 - [82]
 

In all honesty you underestimate the fortitude of the Alt Rabbits and the will of people looking for fights to chase them down.

Ankhesentapemkah used the +5 standings loophole to run all those plexes and she was never interested in fights. And Damar griefed her constantly, but he was one of the only guys who has ever had the will to grief the rabbits on a consistent basis. Nobody else wanted to waste their valuable game time chasing somebody around who didn't want to fight.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.05.03 19:00:00 - [83]
 

X gallentius

Would you agree that rabbits would rather not have their whereabouts broadcast to the opposing militia?
If you agree then this change will not encourage being a rabbit, it will discourage that behavior.

We may disagree about *how much* this will discourage the behavior. The only way to really know is to try it. But by creating mechanics that continually discourage that behavior we can get rid of it. The current system so strongly *favors* carebear/rabbit plexing that, of course, that is how it’s currently done. But this can change and it is really not that hard.

Please though, we have to stop blaming the players for achieving their objectives in a rational way. Eve players will continue to rationally pursue their goals. We need *mechanics* such that when the game is played rationally it brings about allot of small gang pvp. Currently hide and seek alt rabbit plexing is the rational way to win occupancy. If the *mechanics* change so that is no longer the case, people will stop doing it.

But let us back up. Before we talk about mechanics changes I really think we need to have a vision of what we want to happen when we log on in fw. Otherwise we are just making proposals that will just lead us in circles. If we can’t be clear about what we want a gaming session to be like, we shouldn’t just be shouting out proposals that “sound good”.

My vision is to log on and be immediately told where people are trying to hold plexes so I can go and fight for them. Lose a ship? Get in another and get back in the fight. Keep going at it with whatever you can afford to throw at them.

Hopefully there will be some amount of reward to holding plexes to help defray the cost but for the rest I may need to use the credit card or do some carebearing. Whatever. That is the pain that makes losses hurt, I understand that. The thing is, once I have endured that pain and I have ships placed strategically through out the war zone I want mechanics that bring about the fun! I want quality fights!

I don’t want to spend so much time grinding missions, so that I can stock up on ships, only to warp around for hours and eventually just lose them to blobs.

I want to log in and if we are severely outnumbered I want to be able to have chances that a certain coordinated attacks can be pulled off by having the right ships at the right places so I can do something for the war effort, other than sit in a stations.

If the other side has 50 in a blob and we have 20. Lets say we get into frigates and go 15 jumps to a new system. They follow in frigates thinking we will do minor plexes there. Surprise we have fully fit cruisers in that system so we can start running medium plexes!! They would then need to have cruisers nearby and hopefully we would be able to knock out some medium plexes before they can reorganize. If they do we can jump in BSes. Etc. If they come then we all jump clone back up to some other system and start running plexes there. Again having coordination and logistical supplies would be a huge part of it.

“It is better to be on hand [at the decisive point] with ten men than to be absent with ten thousand.” Tamerlane

See I want the war to be more dynamic in this way. I want it to involve logistics and strategies and tactics. Not only “yeah we are waiting for our fc to finish a cigarette so we can get back in blob formation and see what we can fight. We will accomplish nothing other than hopefully find a good fight.” Again we can still have large fleets and I don’t mean to put them down. But I think FW can offer something different *as well*. It can offer *fast paced* small gang pvp like eve has never seen!

This is the vision I want to strive for. What do you say? Is it worth trying to get a game where that sort of game play happens? If so, then lets figure out why our current mechanics don’t lead to it and how we can change them to bring that about.


I don’t want the only option to be: get in a large fleet. I like large fleets too. But small gang pvp is what ccp has never given any love too. It’s time, and fw plexxing is how to do it.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.05.05 15:56:00 - [84]
 

Rabbits alts are rabbit alts. They run plexes and wait for you to enter them before bailing. After a couple days, the notices of plexes opening will fall on deaf ears.

Simpler Proposal: Create a channel available to all militias so they can arrange fights with each other. You can now get your fights on demand. Do "fight club" in Hysera and fight over the plexes.

All the other stuff, we do this all the time. I personally have three (four actually, but one is dormant outside FW area) low sec bases of operations with various ships ready at my disposal. We find plexers/mission runners and run them out - all the time. And I'm not much involved in the Occupancy War anymore. The guys that are involved probably have more bases.

What happens? Over time the guys who are actually plexing get discouraged because the alts do the plexing job better (alts don't get bored orbiting buttons), and then they eventually quit running them. Who wants to be bored for 20 minutes if you're not actually accomplishing anything? And no, nobody is going to chase alts 23/7.

The boring part is the "winning" part where you have to orbit a button for 20 minutes to close the plex or hang around for 11 hours to grief their mission.


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.05.06 14:38:00 - [85]
 

X Gallentius
You seem to assume that no one in eve wants small gang pvp. I agree the fact that ccp has never really tried to develop a mechanism to bring it about, surely lead to many people who did want it leaving the game. But I do think there are still many in game who like it, and likely many who would resub/stay subbed if CCP did it right.

Moreover, eve would keep many of those players who like eve and pvp but aren’t interested in being bossed around by some mope in null sec, nor do they want to quit their day job to become a null sec alliance leader. Really just think about that middle road player and how neglected we are by ccp.

CCP gives these options: 1) take orders from people who drop out of real life to play video games, 2) drop out of real life to be an alliance leader yourself, 3) Stay in high sec and shoot red xes or 4) this game is not for you.

For the guy who likes the game and wants to blow stuff up without having to commit key parts of their life to socializing with internet buds instead of family, real life friends, and associates – well they simply say this game is not for you.

So again if EVE did something for the middle road player you might see more of them – a lot more of them. More of them means that more fights would constantly happen across the regions and there wouldn’t be anywhere for the rabbits to run.

Now on to the specific points.
Would rabbits prefer the entire enemy militia be informed when they open a plex or not? You say “rabbit alts”, but it really doesn’t matter whether they are alts or not. There is still a real person flying the ships and trying to accomplish a goal spending real life time. Now they can cap plexes without anyone even realizing what they are doing. That’s a big reason why rabbits are successful.

You keep equating plexing and running missions. And because of the stupid plex npcs you may have good grounds for doing that. Under current mechanics need to fight npcs and so plex ships are often set up for pve. That means they are of course going to run from a pvp ship. No one wants to get in a pvp fight in a pve ship. But if you remove the npcs from plexes there is no longer a reason to be pve fit. So why not pvp fit your ship?

So you see the rats and the lack of notice *both* create conditions where plexing is best done by rabbits.

I go in plexes but I never try to capture a medium plex. The reason I don’t is because in general I like buffer tank pvp set ups. If I draw agro from the rats they will eat through 20-40% of my buffer tank. And no I don’t want to start pvping with other players with a fraction of my hit points. So the solution is easy. Eliminate the rats so people *can* fly pvp ships and cap plexes.

You continue to talk about how people do things with the current mechanics and you simply assume that everyone will stop paying attention to the plex notifications because no one will want pvp. I really doubt that is the case. Lots of people want pvp it’s just that it takes too long to find it in the current eve mechanics, so people uninstall.

As far as a channel to arrange fights – that has nothing to do with this proposal. You can set up a channel now if you want. RvB does that, if you want that. The original proposal requires no staged/arranged battles between the militias. The original proposal is simply a set of mechanic changes that both militias need to deal with, yet will naturally lead to good small scale pvp fights.

Requiring artificial agreed duels completely loses the feel of being in a real war. What you propose is more “faction war sparring” instead of “faction war fights.” Yes sparring is better than warping around for hours with no action at all, but it shouldn’t be the vision we are striving for.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.05.06 15:13:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Cearain
...

Please refrain from using the term rabbit in an attempt to further your own agenda..

It means 'those who run, always'. Has nothing to do with plexes not being announced, NPCs being there or anything else you might think to use.
Rabbits are a tool used by ISK *****s and 'Win at all costs' people just as a scrambler is a tool for the fighter .. they provide massive and easy amounts of standings and/or VP for the useless system occupancy.
Chase them out of one and they'll open another ad nauseum, no combat has ever or will ever come from them.

People WILL ignore any announcement channel in short order because the last ten or twenty times they were foolish enough to respond to it they drew a rabbit .. has nothing to do with people not wanting PvP, they can quite simply find better 'quality' by doing the same old gate/station/post-DT dance as we all do now.

PS: I have not plexed in a PvE fit .. Ever! If you are unable to do it then the fault is with your fit/paradigm, not the rats ..
I have gone into plexes and assassinated whomever was there and got out (and had it done to me) enough times to know that NPCs influence combat but are in no way defining it (just be wary of full spawns).

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.05.06 16:10:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Cearain
...

What if I'm right? (Yoshida gets it)

Just adjust your proposal so that I don't have to orbit a button 20 minutes to win if 1) nobody shows up and 2) the rabbit bails.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.05.06 16:15:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Cearain
...

….
PS: I have not plexed in a PvE fit .. Ever! If you are unable to do it then the fault is with your fit/paradigm, not the rats ..
I have gone into plexes and assassinated whomever was there and got out (and had it done to me) enough times to know that NPCs influence combat but are in no way defining it (just be wary of full spawns).



The “fault is with my fit/paradigm not the rats”? Is this code for: I need to start fitting fit an active repper to my “pvp” ships like you do?

In other words I can’t fly what I think are the best pvp set ups. I have to gimp them a bit to account for the rats. But then when I’m fighting the rats in an offensive plex with this gimped ship I realize the enemy who comes in won’t get attacked. So he does not need to gimp his ship fit *at all.* Sorry I and most others are not interested in those fights. That is one reason why almost no one does plexes.

You might make up for your subpar fits with numbers. And indeed a repper on certain amarr ships sometimes isn’t so bad. But others fly other races.

This is a big reason why very few are in fw, and of those very few in fw, almost no one does occupancy plexing.

The fact that you do so much occupancy plexing does not prove that your suggestions are more valid than every other player. It may actually show your perspective is somewhat out of touch. Very few players are interested in what you find enjoyable.

I may be out of touch too. It very well may be that many players do not want allot small gang pvp like I’m suggesting. I may be the only one. CCP never set up any mechanics that would encourage small gang pvp so we just don’t know how popular they would be. But I tend to think there are allot of players would like allot of quality small scale pvp.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Cearain
...

Please refrain from using the term rabbit in an attempt to further your own agenda..

It means 'those who run, always'. Has nothing to do with plexes not being announced, NPCs being there or anything else you might think to use. Rabbits are a tool used by ISK *****s and 'Win at all costs' people just as a scrambler is a tool for the fighter .. they provide massive and easy amounts of standings and/or VP for the useless system occupancy.



Rabbits do not achieve their goals of standings, isk or wins if they do not finish the plex. So giving the other side a tool that can help them easily prevent enemy rabbits from finishing a plex will deter that conduct.

Right now the only way to prevent rabbits from achieving their goals is to waste time chasing them around through several jumps. A notification system completely eliminates the need to chase anyone.

Again you are arguing against common sense. Just because common sense is not always common, doesn’t mean it’s not sensible.

I already addressed your claim about how rats force people to fly pve fits or at best suboptimal pvp fits. Moreover players just don’t like starting pvp when they are already under fire from rats. You and ccp can disagree all you want but you’re just refusing to open your eyes. This really isn’t controversial.

I’m not sure what you love so much about shooting red crosses that you always take such offense at eliminating them from plexxes. But after several months of shooting red x’s most players grow bored of it. Deny it all you want it’s still true.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.05.06 16:33:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: X Gallentius
Originally by: Cearain
...

What if I'm right? (Yoshida gets it)

Just adjust your proposal so that I don't have to orbit a button 20 minutes to win if 1) nobody shows up and 2) the rabbit bails.


If you are right we will have the status quo - virtually no one caring about fw plexes.

I'm fine with adjusting the proposal if I know what you mean and it makes sense. But I'm not sure what you are suggesting.

Let’s discuss what should happen a pvper (hereinafter referred to as “pvper”) chases a rabbit ( hereinafter referred to as “rabbit”) out of a 20 minute plex.
The options would seem to be:

1) The pvper would have to run the entire 20 minute timer to win the plex
2) The pvper would have to run the timer for whatever amount of time the rabbit ran it to win the plex
3) The pvper would have to run the timer for some other set amount of time.

It would seem that option 2 would be the best for defeating rabbits. Lets say a rabbit enters a 20 minute plex and then gets chased out after 2 minutes. Well then he really helped the other side by allowing them to win a 20 minute plex in 2 minutes.

But there may be problems with that (read alt in opposing militia exploit.) So it would seem option 1 or option 3 would be better.

I’m really am not sure what would be optimal. I am entirely open to suggestions. But this is really something that is beside the point of original proposals in this thread. I’m happy to add other suggestions to the op if we think them through though. I would encourage people to post any ideas that would deter hide and seek plexing/ rabbits and would lead to more small scale quality pvp.


Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.05.06 17:01:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Cearain
The fact that you do so much..

I stopped plexing in earnest ages ago when I went full pew. Even with exploration probing and forum whoring while orbiting it gets tedious eventually Very Happy
Originally by: Cearain
A notification system completely eliminates the need to chase anyone.

You still need to run there and chase them out. Do you think that they will run on their own just because someone knows where they are? Shocked
You get to see them run a few minutes earlier than now, but the outcome will not change and neither will their behaviour/viability .. the only way to achieve what you seem to want is to make plexes so rare as to be redundant in the first place
Originally by: Cearain
I already addressed your claim about how rats force people to fly pve fits or at best suboptimal pvp fits.

Sub-optimal for 'normal' PvP for sure, just as a sniper fit is a pretty bad idea for jumping into an enemy.
The "one fit to rule them all" does not exist, contrary to what FoTM junkies may tell you. Different circumstances requires different fits and tactics, you should know that.


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