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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.07.09 15:44:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 09/07/2010 15:44:51
Based on some of the reading on this topic I have added changes 3 and 4 to this proposal. I the reasoning behind these changes remains the same. Adding more plexes throughout the fw regions would prevent blobs from winning. I see no reason why you shoudl need a probe launcher to fight in plexes.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.07.12 19:13:00 - [32]
 

The absolutely best fights you can have are the ones where you survive with a fraction of structure. That's the ones where you have sweaty hands, heart racing, adrenaline all over.

And exactly those are the fights that are made impossible by the presence of the NPCs. Even if the damage is only minuscle (and it isn't unless you are really moving a lot, which you won't be when webbed, etc.), it's what breaks the fight. No NPCs, please.

(Though it's already now annoying how many people plex, both offensively and defensively, primarily with rokies alts... Might want a minimum ship restriction for plexes, too :-))

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2010.08.19 19:12:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Andreus Ixiris on 19/08/2010 19:14:17
Not supported, because it perpetuates the idea that plexes should exist in the first place. If you are not a roleplayer, plexes are boring work for effectively no reward at all. If you are a roleplayer,they are boring and entirely arbitrary work for the reward of having served your country in some utterly unquantifiable and illogical way.

Why were these tactical sites built in deep space, rather than in proximity to important things, like moons, planets, stargates or stations?

Why do the beacons need a capsuleer to "secure" them?

What does "securing" them actually do, and why does a capsuleer orbiting one for an entirely arbitrary length of time make it somehow impossible for a capsuleer on the same side to do exactly the same thing?

Why, in a plex being contested by an enemy, don't all the reinforcement waves just warp in at once and kill him? Why don't reinforcement waves warp in to back up a friendly capsuleer under attack?

Why does a defensive plex being revealed by a friendly capsuleer cause it to show up in local?

Why are you not given rewards for running plexes in uncontested systems, when securing these plexes ensures that they will not be attacked by the enemy?

Why are capsuleers from an allied militia fired on, but someone clearly capturing the plex is not, as long as they have positive standings with the faction the plex belongs to?

Why are plexes not brought online where they're needed (i.e. deeply contested systems), rather than in a completely random distribution? Why are capsuleers given loyalty points for killing each other - destroying entirely replacable assets with other entirely replacable assets - but not for capturing plexes?

Why would any of the factions entrust immediate and vital matters of national security to capsuleers, who almost never do anything that's not either profitable, fun or both?

Plexes don't need to be revamped, they need to be replaced utterly, and all evidence that they ever existed needs to be cleansed with holy fire.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.08.19 21:11:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Not supported, because it perpetuates the idea that plexes should exist in the first place....

Actually a very good point you bring up, why have plexes?

What could replace them though, some sort of activity metric like you have for 0.0 indices?
Tonnage player ships destroyed?
Tonnage/Value NPC ships destroyed?
Ships in space over time?

What should differentiate offensive/defensive values if anything (personally never understood why capsuleers needs to "defend" with not hostiles in sight)?

PS: I would hate to lose the size restricted nature of plexes as it is a godsend for fun/challenging fights, but if a superior system could be devised it is a small sacrifice to make.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.08.20 00:22:00 - [35]
 

Andreus Thank you for your questions. I would start by drawing a distinction between “game play” issues and “role play” issues. To my mind the “game play” issues are generally more important but I do agree having a good “role play” backdrop makes the game much better.


Alliance tournament is an example of good game play but poor role play. It involves fun battles but its entirely contrived with made up rules. RvB would be another example of good game play but poor role play. The fights can often be evenly matched but why are they fighting eachother?


I think the proposal would make for the best game play in eve. But let me also address your role play questions because I think that is very important too.


I numbered your questions requesting what I consider” role play” explanations. I will give you your answers by number:

Q1) Why were these tactical sites built in deep space, rather than in proximity to important things, like moons, planets, stargates or stations?


Q2) Why do the beacons need a capsuleer to "secure" them?


Q3) What does "securing" them actually do, and why does a capsuleer orbiting one for an entirely arbitrary length of time make it somehow impossible for a capsuleer on the same side to do exactly the same thing?


A1-3) This isn’t explained. But as anyone who has studied history knows there are reasons why some troops need to be in certain places at certain times. It’s often better to have 100 men in a key place and time than 1000 men to late or misplaced. Would this be the same for space battles? I would imagine so. How would it work? Well I think we can only guess.


But these plexes are apparently the places where some military presence must be at a certain time. I often imagine that what I am doing when I do a plex is giving a show of force. I fly for Amarr. So I imagine that when a system goes “contested” that means that in that solar system there is unrest and support for the competing faction. If I show up in an offensive plex my presence somehow makes it easier for the rebels to do some act which will further promote the amarr empire in that system. Whether that is scare off some sort of minmatar leader who was planning on crushing the rebellion or somehow supplying support for a ground based attack that the amarr want to work.


Is a plex some sort of important power generator that helps direct power to the entire solar system? I don’t know. I guess the thing is it is clear that in almost all real wars so far there have been lynchpins . These lynchpins are places that would often seem otherwise unimportant. But in the war for whatever reason they are important. Hence the concept of making sure we have troops in certain areas for certain amounts of time is definitely well founded by real world warfare. I agree ccp could do a bit more back story to spell it out more, but in the mean time a bit of imagination can fill that in.


Why are they size limited? I think this can be explained many ways. 1) way would be direct orders that your militia said you are not to commit too many resources to this plex. So you can only commit frigates to that plex etc. I admit this doesn’t explain why non-militia can’t enter the plex with bigger ships. But maybe its because when pirates come in they are pretending to be in one or the other militias in order to get through the gate. Hence they need to be in the right ship. Its not really explained but it could be explained in a decent way. The ship restrictions on plexes are just too damn nice for “game play” reasons to give up due to a lack of imagination on the “role play” front.


continued next post

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.08.20 00:33:00 - [36]
 

Q4) Why, in a plex being contested by an enemy, don't all the reinforcement waves just warp in at once and kill him? Why don't reinforcement waves warp in to back up a friendly capsuleer under attack?



A4) I don’t know but my proposal does away with npcs and therefore this issue. So to the extent this is troubling to you should support my proposal.



Q5)Why does a defensive plex being revealed by a friendly capsuleer cause it to show up in local?


A5) I agree. I think the plexes are well known to be “hot spots” or “lynch pins” by both sides and should at the very least be displayed on the overview of everyone in faction war. The idea that you have to probe out what is a hot spot or lynchpin is silly. Especially when there are npcs already there but even with out them there both sides should have the intel and be able to inform their army where they need to go fight. The Generals in the empire shouldn’t just be like “ok troops go on out there wherever and try to find someplace important to fight for!” Every pilot would have these important points programmed into their overview of their ship and updated automatically by the command structure.


Q6) Why are you not given rewards for running plexes in uncontested systems, when securing these plexes ensures that they will not be attacked by the enemy?



A6) I’m not sure. I agree that if you secure anything you should get some reward. But that is truly beside the point of my post. I am trying to make plexing into something that would require pvp skill and be fun. How much or when to reward it is a separate issue.


Q7) Why are capsuleers from an allied militia fired on, but someone clearly capturing the plex is not, as long as they have positive standings with the faction the plex belongs to?



A7) I agree that’s silly. My proposal ends this. There would be no npcs so the players would be the ones taking and defending the plexes. I don’t think the players will refuse to fight war targets because they have a high standing with the militia.


Q8) Why are plexes not brought online where they're needed (i.e. deeply contested systems), rather than in a completely random distribution? Why are capsuleers given loyalty points for killing each other - destroying entirely replacable assets with other entirely replacable assets - but not for capturing plexes?

A8) Well Again I look at plexes similar to hot spots and lynch pins of wars. Not everyimportant battle occurs at a seemingly important place. Why did major battles occur in the places they did? Well there are reasons of course but those reasons are often well beyond the cursory backstory we have in eve. What are the major trade routes for the populations in all these solar systems? Which planets are most important in each solar system from an agricultural, industrial or political view? I mean we know almost none of the *very basic* information on these solar systems, let alone the very nuanced information as to why a certain place might need troops more than another.


I’m not sure what you mean by “entirely replaceable assets.” I suppose anything that can be rebuilt is “entirely replaceable.” What do you mean?



Q9) would any of the factions entrust immediate and vital matters of national security to capsuleers, who almost Why never do anything that's not either profitable, fun or both?

A9) I see capsuleers different than you. I think we are the best of the best. One capsuleer is worth 1000 npcs. The armies are thrilled to have us on board

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.09.14 15:22:00 - [37]
 

I have decided to put eve down for a bit. The length of time it takes to get decent pvp fights in eve is the main reason. Even after you do all the grinding for isk and buying and moving ships and mods you still don't have a way to find decent fights much faster than an hour of jumping around or waiting around for a fleet to form. I can't commit that much time to a video game. RvB was good but it was a bit too arranged.

FW should IMO be the way for more casual players to find decent pvp fast. I don't think an hour of down time is really fast. Others may disagree.

No I'm not giving away my stuff because I'm not quitting eve. :) Its still the best video game ever. I will likely check back from time to time to see if they do anything to improve this. The suggestions in this thread would definitely dramatically improve the situation. But there are other options.



Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.11.21 23:43:00 - [38]
 

FW plexing is still broken.

The 4 suggestions in the op would make plexing much better - something to actually be proud of doing. It would also help solo and small gangs find *quality* pvp faster.

Lex Starwalker
Amarr
Lone Star Exploration
Posted - 2011.01.01 19:34:00 - [39]
 

Some great ideas here mate! I especially like the idea of militias being informed when a PLEXes are entered.

+1

Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.01.02 03:49:00 - [40]
 

Quote:
The entire enemy will be put on notice as to where you are and what you are flying. So your chance of holding the plex depends on your pvp power instead of your pve prowess.


so they will always bring more than you have, how will this help pvp ?


Aphser
Amarr
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.01.02 07:19:00 - [41]
 

Some good ideas here. +1

Although having to scan for plexes is really no big deal, tbh. As long as it can be done with onboard scanner it'S just a matter of a couple minutes. Calling for changing that is just laziness speaking IMHO. Wink

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.01.02 10:18:00 - [42]
 

Your problems #2, #3 and #4 are common to pvp in general. They are not gonna go away, ever. Regardless what you do.

I agree though that plexes should in general be more about pvp. The whole plexing thing needs a complete overhaul tbh.

Scorpionidae
Posted - 2011.01.02 12:05:00 - [43]
 

I didn't read all the post (Its to long for me) I just like clicking the thumbs up button.

Scorpionidae Very Happy

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.01.02 21:27:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Portmanteau
Quote:
The entire enemy will be put on notice as to where you are and what you are flying. So your chance of holding the plex depends on your pvp power instead of your pve prowess.


so they will always bring more than you have, how will this help pvp ?




First let me say that I am not entirely wed to having this particular intel given. It is more important that we at least know where the plexes are being captured. However, on the whole I do think providing this intel is a good idea for 2 reasons:

1) Your militia would know what ship it is, so surely they would report it.

But more importantly

2) I do think it would lead to more pvp.

Consider this example: You are flying in a rifter. You see on the militia intel channel that there is a minor plex being taken by 1 enemy pilot 5 jumps in one direction and another plex being taken by 1 enemy pilot 5 jumps in the opposite direction.

Now one of the plexes has an enemy merlin which you would engage, the other minor plex has a thrasher which you would not engage. If you know what ships they are flying you will go to the merlin and pvp will likely ensue.

If you don’t know what ships are involved then you have a good chance of going to thrasher. In that case you will jump the 5 jumps and then use your dscan and see it is a thrasher in there and likely wisely decide not to engage. No pvp.

Now of course you might think consider a different scenario. If you are in a plex in a thrasher they will bring 2 thrashers to kick you out. Perhaps that will be the case but then again maybe you are familiar with pilots and that they only fit t1 mods or are really bad or something and decide to fight both.

But lets assume the most likely result: that is that you will take a pass on fighting two versus 1 in the same ship. So you warp out to another system and start running a different plex. Now the two pilots can either 1) leave one pilot behind to run the plex you started and have the other go after you in whatever plex you started. Or 2) both stay where they are and run the plex you started themselves in which case you can run a plex somewhere else in the same time. Or 3) Both continue to chase you out of plexes.

If they choose the first option you get your pvp fight when you fight the single thrasher that follows you.

Now if they choose the second or third option you are winning occupancy war because you just tied up two pilots with one pilot! You see every pilot is a valuable resource because they could potentially be running plexes. Using 2 to accomplish the same task is a waste.


But the important thing is not necessarily that you are winning the occupancy war. The important thing is *why* you are winning the occupancy war. You are not winning the occupancy war because you are better at pve. You are winning because you are so much better at pvp that the other side needs to commit 2 pilots in order to kick you out of any plex. The side with the better pvpers will definitely have a huge advantage.

By making occupancy truly depend on pvp skill winning occupancy will actually be something that will be worthy of respect and therefore something of value. Nobody respects good pvers. (that’s why we don’t have a pve alliance tournament) This is why not many really cared when caldari won the occupancy fight. Given the current plexing mechanics no informed person thought they won because the average caldari was better at pvp than the average gallente.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services

Posted - 2011.01.02 23:48:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 02/01/2011 23:50:43
Originally by: Cearain

3) Have more plexes pop up through out the regions and throughout the day not just down time.



This is the key to the whole thing and fixes all related issues without further hunting.

Plex spawning mechanics and occupancy are broken beyond being usable.

After downtime there are 3 systems (constellation based occupancy/sov needs fix too) in the combat zone that can be faught over by fleets of any size with any degree of numbers stacking for hours of fun.
Three hours after downtime this is no longer possible as you can no longer find plex to force into the target system. For the rest of the day factionwar is not factionwar.
Thus you have 2 groups of factionwar pilots.

a) There are those who have played after downtime and see the awesomeness which is factionwar. The best PvP in this game.

b) Then there are those that just "PvP" and think "plex are PvE" because of the broken mechanic.


I'm here to say FW plex are the best and biggest PvP content in this game.
With FW plex you can always get a fight. It will always be different. It has many options of where it can occur.

I've seen 10 cruisers be able to get fights with 40 BC.
I've seen 5 destroyers force 20 BC to reship and fly into a hostile plex for an awesome fight.
I've seen 1 carrier take on 20 matar for fun with the support of BS rats.

Three hours past downtime when factionwar is no longer available for play the same situations result in 100 players being bored and unable to get an engagement started.

We then log for the night and go play WoT.

edit: btw had to switch to support to get any kinda focus on this major expansion that has been abandon by CCP.

Will Incursions be the same?
Will Incarnia be the same?
Will DUST be the same?
Will WoD be the same?

I can only assume "yes".


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.01.04 01:10:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 04/01/2011 01:12:06
Dr. Battlesmith

Thanks for at least supporting the topic. I know you aren't thrilled with everything in what I propose. I just hope we get enough support to have csm take something to ccp.

But fw changes are bound to happen. I agree with you FW complex pvp is the best in the game- when you can get it. I don't want CCP to completely dump plexing when they eventually revamp fw. We need to let ccp know how they can improve plexing in a way that creates more of this great pvp.


Originally by: Aphser
Some good ideas here. +1

Although having to scan for plexes is really no big deal, tbh. As long as it can be done with onboard scanner it'S just a matter of a couple minutes. Calling for changing that is just laziness speaking IMHO. Wink


LOL
You are right it’s not a big issue. But I need to ask. Why doesn't the military already know where *it’s own* military complexes are? I mean what kind of sense does that make.

General talking to pilot: "Soldier, we lost *all* of our military complexes and we need you to go roaming systems to scan them down."


Pilot: “what do you mean we ‘lost’ all of our military complexes”


General: “What’s not to understand soldier? I can’t find the____ papers that had their locations. Now you need to roam around the galaxy and scan them down.”


Pilot: “What!?!? Can’t you telephone the people in the military complexes and have them *tell* you their location?”


General: “The phone numbers were on the papers giving their locations. That’s why I need you to go warping around the galaxy using your scanner to find them for me. ”


Pilot: “Well doesn’t *anyone* know the phone numbers to these military complexes? ”


General: “No I lost that paperwork too. Look just warp to every planet in these 50 systems and hit your system scanner. Well hit it 2xs at each planet because it’s sort of hit or miss.”


Pilot: “Can you at least tell me how many military complexes we have in each system? Or was that in the paperwork…”


General: “You guessed it now stfu and go find our military complexes. If those politicians ever find out we don’t even know where are military complexes are it will be both of our a____es”


So as the pilot I dutifully go out and do this. Then the next morning guess what? He lost the papers *again*!! And you have to find all the lost military complexes again! And every single day the same thing seems to happen.
I tend to think the only reason we need to scan down these complexes was because ccp didn’t think we had enough uses for the scanner. Now with wormholes there are more things for people who like launching probes so there is no need for this.

But actual immersion aside, if you have 9 planets in a system then the scanning assuming 1 scan per planet (they recommend 2 scans but realistically you will likely just do 1 scan) that is 4.5 minutes. If you figure about 20 seconds in between each scan for warping etc. That is an extra 3 minutes. So if you scan 6 systems that is 45 minutes of doing nothing but warping and scanning.

Djakku
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.01.07 02:15:00 - [47]
 

But why do you always run away in your dual warp core stabbed rifter when I try kill you Cearain?

Nauplius
Amarr
1st Praetorian Guard

Posted - 2011.01.07 05:30:00 - [48]
 


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.01.07 21:51:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Djakku
But why do you always run away in your dual warp core stabbed rifter when I try kill you Cearain?


That must have been in a mission not a plex. I do missions in pve ships and I will run.

When I am in a plex I am usually in a ship named something like "fw plexxer" so even the very dumb should be able to find me if they want a fight. The only reason I open plexes is to try to speed up the process of getting in a decent pvp fight.

In a plex I usually just turn away from the rats so they don't aggro me or the enemy.

What do you think of the proposal?

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2011.01.08 01:06:00 - [50]
 

After, what is it 2 years? of complaints about the unfinished expansion that was hyped from the roottops,
bought in a lot of new subscribers, then was abandon......

I'd like to hear wtf CCP has to say for themselves.

A devblog "Why we don't want to fix FW" would be good.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.01.16 15:30:00 - [51]
 

To be fair apocrypha 1.5 was a great update for fw. It made fw missions viable and really made everything except the core of fw (occupancy plexing) very good.

I do think ccp understood that occupancy plexxing was supposed to be the core to fw. That is why when they released the 1.5 patch they said:

“Some final words
It is important to remember that all the above is not a "fix" for Factional Warfare. It is only the first step of many to put its implementation back into the original vision that was ours during the Empyrean Age release. In the meantime, we do hope you will welcome such changes when they hit Tranquility, which should hopefully be sooner than you think.”

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=671

It appears they weren’t quire happy with whatever ideas they had been considering for fixing plexxing and so it has been put on the back burner. I think as players we can offer some ideas of what we would like to see. Hence this proposal.

I think the ideas in this proposal would really make plexing great. If I had an intel channel that told me where enemies were taking plexes I would be using it *all the time* and getting lots of great small scale pvp fights.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.16 15:39:00 - [52]
 

Now if they would just use the incursion plexes for FW (+easier ones that are soloable), you are already alot further.

Assassin126
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.16 21:07:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Assassin126 on 16/01/2011 21:17:04
yep something has definitely gota be changed about the gaining occupancy, as ur point 3 says, today i just went around all 7 systems on the minmatar side of the border that were either occupied by amarr or contested, none of them had a plex to take over inside them, i did the check over systems abotu 3 hours after down time, so even if minmatar could drive out every single amarrian in that system for the 21hours left of the day, it would count for nothing

as it is currently, the only pvp is who can hold the system for the first half an hour after downtime




also just read the post about why plex's, if there's another way (more meaningful way) to occupy systems that would be nice :) also a meaning to occupy them, heres an idea, make it a bit like 0.0 is in the way that once you own it, you can upgrade it by doing things in the system

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2011.01.16 22:47:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Assassin126
as it is currently, the only pvp is who can hold the system for the first half an hour after downtime


The exceptionally sad thing is, this half an hour is the best PvP the game EveOnline has ever seen.

It's the gold, it's the magic that has been stumbled apon, and it's ignored.


Deerin
Minmatar
Murientor Tribe
Posted - 2011.01.20 11:43:00 - [55]
 

Although I love the ideas, I still believe that there must be an additional motivation. Big alliances are holding to their own spaces not because of pvp content, but because of economical reasons. Changing occupancy of a system should bring "some" form of economical reward.

A direct reward would be prone to abuse. So it should be in form of additional accessible resources. One thing that comes to my mind is: Let the bunkers spawn Local Militia Force Agents for the occupying faction. These agents should give missions in their occupied systems and around. So that once a system becomes occupied, the occupying side gets access to FW missions with much less travelling involved. Maybe a LP bonus for completing these agents' missions could be added as well.

About OP suggestions:

1) I agree...but there should be some type of interaction with the "button". Maybe a hacking module to hack it to run the timer.

2) Just a message like "Amarrian Slavers are attacking our Major Stronghold in Dal system." should be enough. Knowing amount of pilots and shiptypes beforehand is really too much intel. That intel has to be gathered by pilots.

3) Although I generally agree with this one, post DT when there are fewer players, has better chance of nice small gang action. As the evening nears the size of gangs grows and pvp turns to blob warfare. A solution would be limiting number of ships that can enter a plex at one time. For example Installations would allow max 3 Players from each side at one time. Outposts 6, Compunds 10 and Strongholds Unlimited. This would somewhat limit the blobs inside plexes...thought gate itself would be completely blobbable.

4) I agree, this way I can use that utility slot for some other utility than probe launcher. Another solution would be increasing range of on-board scanner for FW plexes only. This way overview won't be crowded with un attended plexes and we can know which Amarr Minor Facility we have to warp to get combat, when there are 3 of them in system :P

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.01.20 18:10:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: X Gallentius on 20/01/2011 18:15:18
Dumb idea time.

System Control Emphasized:
Semi-passive income = K*[max(0,# of systems on your side flipped in last "N" months - # of systems on other side has flipped over last "N" months)]*[[Your VP over last "N" months]/[Your faction's VP over the last "N" months]]

Tune K, and "N" to suit your needs.

VP emphasized: Offensive and defensive plexing matters.
Income = K* [max(0,VP your side - VP their side)]* [Your VP/Your side VP] (updated once per day)

Tune K to suit your needs.

or maybe just
Passive income = K*(Your VP/Total VP)
Faction LP = K*(Your VP/Total VP)

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.01.20 21:45:00 - [57]
 

Thanks for the ideas guys. Don’t forget that if support the discussion here to check the box.

I do agree that there needs to be better rewards for plexing. The op doesn't address that issue. The intent of the op changes were really just to make FW plexing more pvp centered and more fun – in itself. But I am happy to have these ideas in the thread because giving better rewards is likely also necessary.

X Gallentius

I like the idea there. The formulas you use seem to take into account the 2 main concerns with awarding occupancy. The first concern is that everyone will just keep piling into the winning side. The second concern is people will have alts in fw that do nothing but collect the rewards. Your formula seems to take into account both of these concerns. So I tend to like the formulas.

But let me ask this: What would be the matter with simply dividing a set of lp for the completion of a plex to everyone who is on grid? If there are more people on grid fewer lp for each pilot.

Perhaps it should a bit of both. A formula similar to what you have proposed as well as some small immediate payment to the pilots involved. Perhaps the immediate payout should be based on how long you were in the plex. That way if someone was mainly just sitting outside the gate because they wanted to keep their presence out of the intel they can, but they won’t get as much reward.

To help the side that is out numbered maybe there could be some sort of balancing as systems get occupied. Lets say Caldari have occupied x% of the systems on the gallente and caldari front. (x = some number greater than 50 obviously) Then all of a sudden the gallente can enter minor plexes in cruisers and medium plexes in bcs etc. Caldari would still be limited to the original plex size. Hence it becomes harder and harder to completely win. If it comes down to 1 or 2 systems left they may even let battleships in the minor plexxes. I can envision final stands where 20 battleships and 30 bcs are swarmed by 500 frigates and destroyers. Who knows how it would work out.

For the sake of space I won’t give the story line explanations other than to say there are some.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.01.20 21:50:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 20/01/2011 21:51:21
Edited by: Cearain on 20/01/2011 21:50:45
Originally by: Deerin
Although I love the ideas,....1) I agree...but there should be some type of interaction with the "button". Maybe a hacking module to hack it to run the timer.

2) Just a message like "Amarrian Slavers are attacking our Major Stronghold in Dal system." should be enough. Knowing amount of pilots and shiptypes beforehand is really too much intel. That intel has to be gathered by pilots.

3) Although I generally agree with this one, post DT when there are fewer players, has better chance of nice small gang action. As the evening nears the size of gangs grows and pvp turns to blob warfare. A solution would be limiting number of ships that can enter a plex at one time. For example Installations would allow max 3 Players from each side at one time. Outposts 6, Compunds 10 and Strongholds Unlimited. This would somewhat limit the blobs inside plexes...thought gate itself would be completely blobbable…..




1) As far as interaction with the button I don’t know anything about hacking. Would that require something else we would need to fit on the ship? I really think ccp needs to make it so that the challenge to plexing is the other side trying to blow you up before the timer runs. Anything else is a sign of failure. Any pve requirements would just cover up the fact that the occupancy system comes up short.


2) I think the intel would make the game better. The whole idea is both sides would have to react fast and assign pilots to the multitude of battles that would be constantly fought throughout the 8 regions of fw (I think each faction has 2 regions in fw so 4 factions x2 =8 regions) before those timers run out. It shouldn’t be something where you see they are attacking then have to fly over there find out what they are in and then fly back and get the right ships etc. and in the meantime they shipped up etc. That is too much like the current system. The npcs can see what ships they are in so they should report it and both sides should be reacting to constantly changing set of conditions in a somewhat frantic way to send pilots to try to hold/take these plexes.


3) Because there is such a large area of space to cover, and already ship size restrictions on plexes, blobbing wouldn’t be a good way to go about the occupancy war. If you are taking plexes with 3 ships when you only need 1 then you are only 1/3 as efficient as you should be. The other side will be capping 3xs as many plexes per pilot as you are. And yes blobs could camp the gate to the plex but again that is inefficient. Instead of those players sitting out (and therefore perhaps not getting the award) they could be doing plexes in other systems. For these reasons I think they should allow as many ships as you want in the plex. Newer pvpers may indeed need numbers to take on more experienced pvpers. As they gain experience in pvp they will be more valuable to the militia.



X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.01.21 00:00:00 - [59]
 

Whatever the end result, you need
1. Self-limiting rewards.

Total capacity: "K", distributed by various means. If only one guy is doing plexing everywhere then he's going to get a TON of isk or lp every day. This activity will be seen as a GREAT way to make some easy isk. As the number of plexers increases, the rewards "K" will be split among many more people and it'll likely balance out to whatever other forms of income are available.

2. Conflict.

To be rewarded you must complete the plexing mission, and to maximize the reward you need to maximize your rewards and minimize your opponent's rewards.

VP to LP concept should have been implemented years ago. Whatever is used for VP should be used for this figure of merit. In this case if there are 1000 poeople piled into a plex, then the VP awarded should be 1000*baseline VP. The reason is that those same 1000 people could have been running 1000 missions instead. The total distributed will still be a function of total VP awarded so whether 1000 guys do one plex, one guy does one plex, or 1000 guys do 1000 plexes, the total payout is the same.



Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.01.21 14:49:00 - [60]
 

Why do you think it should be self limiting?

I agree with the conflict idea. I’m not sure how to implement it though. Perhaps they could put more fw exclusive items that are available to all militias. That way basic econmics would encourage you to keep your competitors from getting lop.

Perhaps you would get some sort of small lp bonus if any ships blow up in the taking of the plex. It couldn’t be too big because people would exploit it by blowing up alts in rookie ships but if the reward were not that much larger it woudln’t be worth it.

Here are some more thoughts on rewards:

If the new plexing mechanic works at all like I think it would there will be a lot more exploding ships in fw. A *lot* more. Everyone will know where you are doing these so there will be many more fights. If it didn’t pay anything all the pilots would be bankrupt.

I’m thinking the value that you get from the plex should be enough on average to cover say 2/3 of your losses for t2 fit t1 hulls.(after insurance and with t1 rigs)

So lets say a t2 fit frigate costs 6 mill a t2 fit cruiser cost 25 mill a t2 fit bc costs 35 mill. (just throwing some numbers out there.)

Lets assume you get about 2.5k isk per lp. And lets assume that on average you will finish the equivalent of 2 plexes solo before getting blown up. Or if you travel with 2 pilots you will finish 4 but the lp would be divided equally so it’s the same. The thing is the bigger the group you travel with the more you will likely finish before getting blown up but you will also be dividing your rewards more ways.

If you can beat the odds and get 3 plexes in before you die you paid for your ship if you can beat the odds and get more than that then you are actually profiting. Not as much as running missions but you’re pvping!

So lets say a minor defensive plex would pay 600 lp a minor offensive would pay 850 lp. Offensive pay a bit more because the defensive plexes are basically in your back yard and offensive may require some travel. Of course, some pilots may start to base deep in enemy territory which spreads things out and is, in general, good.

Medium plexes would pay about 2500 lp for a defensive and 3500 lp for an offensive etc.
Again the numbers I propose are pretty rough if they are wrong we can adjust it. (and no I didn’t use a calculator so its likely not exactly 2/3s)

CCP should make plenty of plexes available in allot of systems when there are more people online and fewer available more spread out when fewer people are online. Otherwise timezones where there are few people online will simply cap plexes with much less fighting.

All of this would need to be tweaked over time.




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