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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.06.03 17:30:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 25/03/2011 14:35:17


"It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), ….111 faction warfare complexes were captured … I did not kill anyone in the process..” Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00


Problems:

1) FW occupancy usually has little to do with pvp. Pvp and occupancy are often very different types of activity. Or put differently FW occupancy involves too much pve and not enough pvp.

2) FW pvp too often consists attacking someone and then getting blobbed.

3) Too much time is spent shipping up or down.

4) Too much time is spent looking for a similar sized gang you may want to engage as opposed to run from or that will just run from you.

Solution:

1) Remove npcs from occupancy related plexes.
Npcs in the plexes ruin it. Who wants to fight with your ability to win gimped by some intangible amount of rat dps and ewar from rats? It’s lame fighting when you are under fire and ewar from npcs. Really I don’t want npcs whoring my killmails anyway.

2) Inform Militias when players enter plexes!

When someone from fw enters a complex gate all militias should know who entered, where, ship types and the plex type. This is intel that should just be provided via a separate chat channel. After all if a system is contested that means both sides likely have npc spies there giving info. (here I do not mean player spies but npc militia spies that will post in the channel but they do not fly around in ships. They are more like bureaucratic spies. The only way their presence would be known in game is they would post in the “plex intel” chat channel) This way the players could get a gang out there to fight the enemy pvp gang before the plex runs. No npcs in the fight. Instead information about where you can find pvp!



3) Have more plexes pop up through out the regions and throughout the day not just down time.

4) don’t require scanners just have the plexes appear.


Comments:

If ccp made those two changes I think plexing would make fw the absolute best pvp mechanic in the game. Will it solve everything? No but it will, I believe substantially cut down on the problems I listed above.

I would point out 3) plexes shouldn’t mainly spawn at downtime. They should be spawning throughout the day and frequently. I thought the csm already recommended this to ccp – though I could be wrong.
How will this make plexing more of a pvp activity? By removing the npcs people will fit their ships for pvp. There will be no trade offs that need to be made for dealing with the various rats. Fit your ship for pvp and go capture systems.

Won’t this lead to people just flying noob ships in plexs? That is where the second change comes in. Currently if you are going to do plexes the most effective way is to get in a small ship that can tank the npcs and hope the timer runs before the enemy knows your even there. The current mechanics make this the smart way to plex. However with the proposed changes the other militia will know where you are and likely come to kill you. So if you are not prepared to fight chances are you will get chased out before the timer is up. The entire enemy will be put on notice as to where you are and what you are flying. So your chance of holding the plex depends on your pvp power instead of your pve prowess.

comments continued....

edit: added some ideas to deal with ecm problems that this system may create: see page 3 post 64.


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.06.03 17:36:00 - [2]
 

continued from op....

How will this reduce blobs? Well I’m not sure it will reduce actual blobs but it will reduce their impact on the game in at least 3 ways:

1) It will make it easier to avoid “getting blobbed.” Currently since most of the pvp occurs in the system you can have a bait ship and then as soon as someone engages the bait you can have a fleet warp right on top of them. Here you will be in a plex. So if people try to warp to you they will not warp directly on top of you they will warp to the gate. Now you can decide to engage the enemy as far from or close to the gate as you like. If you engage say 90km off the gate. Then you will 1st see local spike. The blob will have to warp to the gate. Jump through the gate and then try to burn out to you. This will give you time to either kill a few of the enemy or try to get away. If the blob jumps in with sniper fits they may not need to burn out to you (they can start shooting right at the gate) but they will be quite vulnerable if you have some close range reinforcements coming. Smile

2) If the enemy is flying around in one big blob then you can spread out and take plexes far from where the blob is. Moreover if the enemy just tries to stay in one big gang chasing individual plexers they may get trapped by an enemy blob. From an occupancy stand point though it would be better to break up the blob into 5 groups taking plexes though out the fw area than it would to have one big blob lumbering around capturing none of the plexes and trying to chase plexers away and likely getting no kills in the process.

3) The plexes are already size limited. So if you bring 30 battleships to chase away 3 destroyers and 3 frigates doing a minor plex you won’t get in. The size of the gang has to be able to get into the plexes. Hence, other than major plexes, the blob warfare as we know it won’t work.

How will this reduce the time it takes shipping up or down? Well the intel channel *tells* you the size of the fleet you are to deal with. So it will greatly speed this up.

How will this reduce the time you spend roaming looking for a like sized gang? Well the intel channel *tells* you where they are and the type of gang they have. So the problem is about as solved as possible.

Will there be a fleet in system waiting on the gate even though only a few are in doing the plex? Sure that’s possible. You still need to scout. But that’s not so bad.

Does this mean the larger and more powerful militia will win occupancy? Yeah I think it does. But that’s the way it should work.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION

Posted - 2010.06.07 17:26:00 - [3]
 

This thread is now officially open for comments and discussion. You are all now welcome to post your thoughts.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.06.07 17:37:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/06/2010 17:36:50
Comments:
- This seems pretty easy to abuse, because you can have 50 people in stilettos hit 50 systems simultaneously... if someone comes you do what you can to hold them down. Amarr are most susceptible to this since they have the most systems.
- I somehow doubt this will limit blobbing because you're essentially telling 250 people where you are!
- But... the NPCs really do **** everything up, and I really dislike the whole "shoot it and rep it" cycle that happens in 0.0

Well, I support the removal of those NPCs... so carry on.

-Liang

Hereon Herinnger
Gallente
The Scope

Posted - 2010.06.08 03:23:00 - [5]
 

Nice ideas. There would need to be fewer plexes necessary, I think, but make them take longer. I agree that spamming plexes in small ships could be annoying (noobship alts anyone? easy to kill, but not in 50 places at once). Thus make each plex take say an hour, but only have on average 0-2 per system. (Scale necessary victory points accordingly.)

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2010.06.08 04:41:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Cearain

1) FW occupancy usually has little to do with pvp. Pvp and occupancy are often very different types of activity. Or put differently FW occupancy involves too much pve and not enough pvp.



Plexing in FW is PvP not PvE. This is a common miss-conception with those who assume "plex" = "PvE".

Originally by: Cearain

2) FW pvp too often consists attacking someone and then getting blobbed.



Good thing we have plex restrictions to manage the engagement size and allow for fights even when one side is vastly outnumbered.

Originally by: Cearain

3) Too much time is spent shipping up or down.
4) Too much time is spent looking for a similar sized gang you may want to engage as opposed to run from or that will just run from you.



Then why not use the plex size restrictions to get an engagement of a size you can handle?


Originally by: Cearain

1) Remove npcs from occupancy related plexes.



NPCs allow you to fight those blobs you're complaining about. They are the solution to the "problem" you see.

The NPC ewar does require a rebalance.


Originally by: Cearain

If ccp made those two changes I think plexing would make fw the absolute best pvp mechanic in the game. Will it solve everything? No but it will, I believe substantially cut down on the problems I listed above.



No it wouldn't.

By removing NPCs and messing with plex size restrictions you remove the very mechanic that allows you to fight blobs when the enemy is stronger for your timezone.

Originally by: Cearain

3) plexes shouldn’t mainly spawn at downtime. They should be spawning throughout the day and frequently.



This has needed fixing for a long time.

Originally by: Cearain

How will this make plexing more of a pvp activity? By removing the npcs people will fit their ships for pvp.



Plexing is already a PvP activity and fleets that plex are already fit for PvP.

Originally by: Cearain

How will this reduce blobs?



It won't. It will however remove all the mechanics smaller fleets have for managing them.

Originally by: Cearain

1) It will make it easier to avoid “getting blobbed.”



By removing the ability to use NPCs as a force multiplier?
Smart.....

Originally by: Cearain

2) If the enemy is flying around in one big blob then you can spread out and take plexes far from where the blob is.



Already the case.

Originally by: Cearain

3) .... The size of the gang has to be able to get into the plexes. Hence, other than major plexes, the blob warfare as we know it won’t work.



Already the case.

Originally by: Cearain

Does this mean the larger and more powerful militia will win occupancy? Yeah I think it does. But that’s the way it should work.



So your suggestion is that the larger militia should have complete dominance and the smaller militia should have no tools for engagement size management.

Amazingly short-sighted.

Not supported.


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.06.08 06:18:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Dr Battlesmith
Plexing in FW is PvP not PvE.


Not in the usual sense - unless there's an opposing pilot involved. At most it might amount to poor market PVP for LP or standings gains or something.

Originally by: Dr BattleSmith


NPCs allow you to fight those blobs you're complaining about. They are the solution to the "problem" you see.
...
By removing NPCs and messing with plex size restrictions you remove the very mechanic that allows you to fight blobs when the enemy is stronger for your timezone.
...
By removing the ability to use NPCs as a force multiplier?



What the hell are you talking about? The NPCs are the biggest deterrent to small scale PVP I've ever seen. I'd rather camp gates for PVP than do plexes because plex NPCs make it impossible to PVP. Freaking brain dead I swear.

Quote:
So your suggestion is that the larger militia should have complete dominance and the smaller militia should have no tools for engagement size management.


The only intelligent thing you said. Even still, the plex NPCs are a catastrophically stupid way to handle things... and if one side is that outnumbered, it might make sense that they lose.......

-Liang

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2010.06.08 06:42:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

Not in the usual sense - unless there's an opposing pilot involved. At most it might amount to poor market PVP for LP or standings gains or something.



You must be talking about solo plexing in backwater systems.

With fleet plexing the whole point is to choose plex for the PvP.
When the enemy outnumber you, small/medium plex can be used to force the enemy to ship down.
Also unrestricted plex can be used to engage larger fleets including capitals with the help of some NPC dps.

Originally by: Liang Nuren

What the hell are you talking about? The NPCs are the biggest deterrent to small scale PVP I've ever seen. I'd rather camp gates for PVP than do plexes because plex NPCs make it impossible to PVP.



Impossible to PvP? I can show you hundreds of fights where the plex have been the sole reason for a fight being at all possible.

When the enemy is flying around in a 30-40 strong BC/BS fleet it's the plex that allow your 10-20 strong cruiser fleet to engage.

If you think plex somehow block the possibility of PvP then you really don't know how they work.
Plex are a tool for the underdog to gain initiative and force the larger side to react.

They are a very important part of FW PvP which expand the fight beyond gates and stations.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:13:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 08/06/2010 08:44:36
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith

You must be talking about solo plexing in backwater systems.

With fleet plexing the whole point is to choose plex for the PvP.
When the enemy outnumber you, small/medium plex can be used to force the enemy to ship down.
Also unrestricted plex can be used to engage larger fleets including capitals with the help of some NPC dps.



Yes, because that's the order of the ****ing day man. If people want blobs, they go to 0.0. If they want small gang ****, they goto low sec. FW is in low sec. Q E ****ing D. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

Impossible to PvP? I can show you hundreds of fights where the plex have been the sole reason for a fight being at all possible.



Fantastic, in my corp alone there's been thousands of potential fights that were avoided because we couldn't PVP inside FW plexes and missions. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

When the enemy is flying around in a 30-40 strong BC/BS fleet it's the plex that allow your 10-20 strong cruiser fleet to engage.



I've seen two FW fleet this strong. Two. Ever. ****ing EVER. Come on now, way to use the once in a decade arguments.

Quote:

If you think plex somehow block the possibility of PvP then you really don't know how they work.
Plex are a tool for the underdog to gain initiative and force the larger side to react.



No, you're just out of touch with reality - the fleets simply do not form up the way you're suggesting. It doesn't happen, stop using it as an argument.

Quote:
They are a very important part of FW PvP which expand the fight beyond gates and stations.


No.... they aren't. They're an impediment to PVP because it takes a dual logistics blob to go after a ****ing rifter in a plex. Rolling Eyes

-Liang

Ed: And yes, I'm currently in the faction war and I've been in it before. And when my pirate coalition gets to rolling, we blast through Amamake/Auga and outnumber both militias.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.06.08 08:35:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Cearain
3) Too much time is spent shipping up or down.

Size restrictions on plexes is probably the only good thing about the whole fiasco called FW. Yes it means you have to have more stuff ready to fly but it beats the hell out of any alternatives.
Originally by: Cearain
1) Remove npcs from occupancy related plexes.

NPC damage is beyond pitiful, look at the mails, even frigs out damage them on most mails. The only issue with them is the eWar - that is what makes them troublesome for plex fighting .
Originally by: Cearain
2) Inform Militias when players enter plexes!

Aka. "The Blob Magnetizer!". Would create insurmountable spam (mail or channel), would not serve to rally any more people than are already willing/able and benefits numbers (in pilots and systems) significantly more than current.
Originally by: Cearain
Won’t this lead to people just flying noob ships in plexs?..

There will be no change what so ever. Tons of frigs capturing every plex in sight, run to next when enemy shows .. will have zero impact on amount of PvP.
Will be particularly grievous when there is a large number disparity between two sides as defensive squads can only cover so much ground.
Originally by: Cearain
How will this reduce blobs?

1) How does this differ from the way things are today? Blobs means no fights, the large fleet slug-outs rarely if ever happen at/in/near/in relation to plexes.
2) How does this differ from the way things are today? Blob on call camping Goddess knows what with frigates plexing ..
3) How does this differ from the way things are today? Blobs (in FW) are not necessarily BS. The most frequent composition is frigate/cruiser with a smattering of BS for damage .. the heavy blobs only form when plexing is "done" and is a recreational tool .. they have no impact on plexing what so ever.
Originally by: Cearain
How will this reduce the time it takes shipping up or down?

Originally by: Cearain
How will this reduce the time you spend roaming looking for a like sized gang?

You even mention the obvious course of action as a "possibility" .. well guess what, it will be the de facto standard operating procedure for everyone.
Blob on acceleration gates with single frig taking plex .. or even better, have the blob roam around an area while frigs plexes in constellation and call blob in to whatever system the defenders arrive in .. impossible to counter as the one plex you may save is just one out of a dozen = you lose over time.
Originally by: Cearain
Does this mean the larger and more powerful militia will win occupancy? Yeah I think it does. But that’s the way it should work.

Yea. Strategy, tactics and conviction has no place in war at all. Read up on the history of warfare and you'll see what I mean .. hell you only need to look at the US fight for independence to get the gist of it. FW is tolerable because numbers does not equal iWin like it does in blob-land.

There is no solution to FW unless you are willing to revamp the entire thing .. the basic mechanic is what is broken.

Not supported. The turd called FW cannot ever get the required shine regardless of how much polish is applied .. revamp is only option.

PS: The link to my thread from last year, now locked due to age. Still my baby though.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.06.08 14:06:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Dr BattleSmith

By removing NPCs and messing with plex size restrictions you remove the very mechanic that allows you to fight blobs when the enemy is stronger for your timezone.





Thank you all for your posts. I recognize this is a pretty big change and needs to be considered carefully. But I have thought this through quite a bit so before you write it off consider what I raise in light of your objections.
Just to be clear, I would not mess with the plex size restrictions. This proposal does 2 things and 2 things only. 1) remove npcs and 2) inform player militias of who is taking plexes where through a seperate channel. The plexes would still have the same sizes. (I suppose I added 3.. that plexes spawn throughout the day but I think this change has already been promoted by csm)

I am not denying that some pvp takes place during plexing. I don’t participate in it because it is done during down time, but I hear it is great fun. But the vast majority of pvp takes place outside of the plexing context. What percent of fw pvp kills would you say take place in an occupancy plex? I would guess 2%. The plex restrictions make them an awesome system to prevent getting blobbed. They are a *great* place to pvp. Yet they are almost never used for pvp. Why? 2 reasons you have to hassle with npcs (or have the enemy hassle with them – and they will often just say “thanks but no thanks if I want to pve I will run a mission”) and 2 if you clear out the npcs who says anyone is even going to come in your plex?? You just sit there waiting.

I really think with my proposal you would see at least 50% of fw pvp occurring in plexes. And it would be the same great small gang pvp you guys who are lucky enough to play during down time see.

Liang I’m not sure I understand what you are saying you would do with 50 stillettoes. If a stiletto is an a plex he needs to stay a certain distance from the button. So you could just chase it off. I mean I’m not saying certain tactics wouldn’t develop I’m sure they would. But I’m not sure I understand what you are suggesting.

As far as the timer. I’m not sure it would have to increase that much – if at all. I think fleets would tend to spread out. You would have medium plex fleet(s) large plex fleet(s) and minor plex fleet(s) roaming around. When they see a similar sized enemy gang has jumped into a plex the make the few jumps and fight. There would be constant pvp activity throughout the fw systems.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.06.08 14:41:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

NPC damage is beyond pitiful, look at the mails, even frigs out damage them on most mails. The only issue with them is the eWar - that is what makes them troublesome for plex fighting .



Well either npcs are “blob equalizers”, like DR. battlesmith is saying , or they are “next to nothing.” But you both can’t be right. I think they are one thing – dampeners on pvp.

I (like the vast majority of pvpers) tend not to engage fights with npcs shooting at me. I don't know what all the funny ship names mean and I have no intention on learning them. I do not think I am alone on this. Let me explain:

If I see 2 ruptures a thorax and 2 rifters in a major I have an idea what I'm up against. If I have those same ships with an ass-ton of wacky named npcs, I don't know what to expect. How much damage will those npcs start doing if I get scrammed and webbed? Who knows and who cares? Not allot of people are going to want to try to figure that out. Instead they will just do their pvp outside of the plexes. Like the vast majority of fw pvp is currently done.

That’s just it though. FW has these great plexes with ship size restrictions which could yield so much more! But those mechanics are getting all f’ed up by npcs and games of hide and go seek.

Let me ask, what percent of plexes taken do you think involve pvp? When I started fw I took a few plexes but found it to be mainly a pve activity. Has this drastically changed despite no changes to the mechanics? It doesn’t seem to have changed. Now I will occasionally fly to a plex if there is an enemy in local. Almost always when I fly in the enemy warps. Do I blame him? No he often has about 50% shields from npcs. Why would he want to pvp with that handicap?

I think that if this proposal was implemented even if the plex wasn’t contested we would still get pvp in them. People would see these plexes as a great way to limit blobs and get a variety of pvp.

Would the side that can field more ships win? Yeah I suppose they would. But its hard to say they shouldn’t win. Moreover if we are getting great fights who cares. Occupancy doesn’t mean much of anything other than a medal. If that medal was based on pvp instead of pve it might actually have decent value. But even if one side loses because they are outnumbered just keep fighting the fight until the tide changes and they get the upper hand. At least with Amarr and Minmatar the numbers tend to go up and down quite a bit.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.06.08 15:08:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Yea. Strategy, tactics and conviction has no place in war at all. Read up on the history of warfare and you'll see what I mean .. hell you only need to look at the US fight for independence to get the gist of it. FW is tolerable because numbers does not equal iWin like it does in blob-land.




If we did away with npcs we would make plexing and occupancy pvp but not without strategy. I think the strategy in fw pvp would be some of the richest in eve.

Nor would it lead to blobs. It would split them.

Instead of everyone hanging out in a blob (as they do now because almost no pvp takes place in plexes anyway) gangs would split up and spread out with different sized ships. If you are really organized you can have different sized ready fit ships thoughout fw space. If you are really good you can have jump clones ready. If a big blob comes you can do minor or medium plexes. Blobs tend to be unwieldy and take a *long* time to get reshipped or move. If they move too fast they may tend to be reckless and get caught.

Having multiple gangs able to get in different sized ships fast would be what occupancy would be all about. That is what real war is all about. Having the right troops present *when you need them*. Not having a big lumbering blob that can't even enter the plex/battlefield.

Its unlikely that a militia will be able to field 3 different blobs at once, each of which would need to be bigger than any single gang the opposing militia can field. There would have to be one for minors one for mediums and one for majors.

And even if they can,(very very unlikely) you just do plexes away from the enemy blobs that apply to your style of plex. Intel would be important as would logistics and strategy. But for once we would likely have fcs splitting gangs to try to accomplish different strategic goals instead of everyone trying to stay together and blob all at once.

Will blobs still exist? Sure they will. But if you are in a plex that doesn’t allow bigger ships in they will not matter as much.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.06.08 16:23:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: X Gallentius on 08/06/2010 16:23:47
1) Removing NPCs from plexes makes offensive plexing as boring as defensive plexing - when nobody shows up for a fight. It also makes offensive plexing easy and will lead to massive numbers of afk plexing alts contesting systems.

2) Broadcasting where plexes are opening is a great idea and will help with defensive plexing efforts, with more chances for a fight.

But here's what's going to happen. Plex opening up will be broadcast to all. The first three days everybody will rush to defend the plex and the AFK plexing alt will simply warp out and move on. The people looking for fights will soon get bored of going ten jumps for nothing (and then having to sit on timer for 20 minutes to decontest the plex). We'll be back to three dedicated plexers on each side hunting each other's afk plexing alts down.

Bottom line: If both parties want fights then fights will happen. Otherwise it won't.

Fights does not equal Occupancy. Orbiting a button for "N" minutes equal Occupancy. Sometimes you have to kill NPCs, sometimes you have to bail because the other side wants to win more than they want a fight, and sometimes you bring too many people because your goal is occupancy and not fight, and sometimes you get a good fight because both sides bring an appropriate force to the plex.






Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.06.08 17:30:00 - [15]
 

X Gallentius

While I agree that if both parties don’t want a fight you likely wont get one. But often I’m looking for a fight and I’m sure there are plenty of enemies out there looking for a fight to but I can’t find them or we are in the wrong fits. We can make it a lot easier to get good fights. These changes to plexing are essentially a way to make it easier to find a fight.

I'm not sure you would have to go 10 jumps. You would see the plexes popping up throughout the fw area. The only questions are, are you in the right sized ship/gang to head over a few jumps to fight what they have? If not how fast can you get in the right ships? You could of course just continue to roam around like you do now if you want pvp. But I think we would find most fights don’t happen that way with this way of finding good fights fast.

Even if the changes were made, I would likely not do the plexes for occupancy at all. I would do them *just* for the fights. I would probably orbit the button for the heck of it while I am in there. But currently, I really don't care about occupancy. I may if some interesting strategies started to spin off of how it was acquired and they involved pvp.

Lots of times many on both sides want fights but have very little idea what they need to bring. So one blob for each side forms. (that way yoru ready for anythign right?) Blob A sees blob B has the advantage so blob A ships up. Half hour later Blob A is out and blob B has disbanded so blob A ganks a few things while it waits for blob B. Blob B reforms and by they time they are out half of blob A left. Etc.

The proposed system would be much more fluid. You would see gangs entering plexes all the time thorough out the faction war area. (and hopefully throughout the day and not just after downtime!) You know they will likely be there for the time it takes the plex to run. So you can decide if you want to go fight them. Sure some people will run. But if you bring a somewhat comparable gang (and you will know the size of the gang in the plex so why not?) you will get a ton of good small gang/solo fights fast.

For myself, I know that if I didn’t have to mess wth npcs and I knew someone actually knew I was sitting there, I would show up solo in my frigate/cruiser/bc/battleship (whatever) 70 k off the warp in gate so that even if they try to bring a blob I have a shot at taking out the bait or getting away before I get blobbed.

I do not think it would end up with people semi-afking these. Think about it. If you want a fight now what do you do? You warp around looking for targets. Here you might as well do a plex and let the enemy come to you. If they are coming for you then you know they want a fight. It just helps likeminded people find good fights. It does so without being staged or prearranged.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.06.08 17:39:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Well either npcs are “blob equalizers”, like DR. battlesmith is saying , or they are “next to nothing.” But you both can’t be right. I think they are one thing – dampeners on pvp.

You need to read and understand what I actually said, no where did I say they were "next to nothing". I said the damage can be shrugged off but the eWar is what breaks them .. remove all NPC eWar and be done with it.
Pirates have no qualms about taking what little damage the NPCs give, be it in plexes or on gates. The only "WTF..Grrrr" I have ever heard from them is that they were webbed, neuted, painted, jammed, dampened etc. (ie. the eWar) by the rats so they bailed/died/didn't loot .. very rarely do I hear damage from rats mentioned as reason for a missed opportunity.

If you assault a plex that you have not previously been in there is no spawns of consequence, if you are running a timer without clearing rats when an enemy comes in then the fault is your own .. stop speed tanking the bloody things and NPC's become a trifle.
A lesson you are free to pass on to the 50%-shields-runner example you gave .. a couple of guys in proper ships (yes even PvP fitted) can wipe out all spawns almost as fast as they arrive.
Originally by: Cearain
If we did away with npcs we would make plexing and occupancy pvp but not without strategy. I think the strategy in fw pvp would be some of the richest in eve.

You cannot possibly be that naive. Look at Amarr space, a BC-down blob could linger in Dal/Amamake and reach any Amarr FW system within 5-6 minutes. The whole splitting the blob up will NEVER happen unless you give them reason .. allowing any non-noob ship to plex with not even NPC interference does not.
As I said, the BS blobs rarely shows itself except on weekends when they slug it out for fun, the everyday blob has more than enough ships to go into any plex they want and still outnumber a plexing contingent.

Your attempt at polishing the inherently flawed system does nothing but benefit numbers and encourage even more plexing-alt lameness (something we have thankfully not seen en masse on A/M front).
- The way the plexes work needs to be looked at if any sort of headway is to be achieved.
- We also need to look at possible effects of acquiring occupancy to make people want to plex.
- Then "land in play" needs to be drastically reduced to discourage the bumblebee plexer from being able to run from plex to plex evading any attempts to kill it.

But it is a moot discussion as CCP is never going to take it up again except to remove the bugs they themselves introduce when they mess about with the code elsewhere (FW is a mash-up of bits and pieces from all over the damn place!) - my faith in them wanting FW to be all it can be is long gone.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.06.08 19:48:00 - [17]
 

Nice suggestions, but if you're not interested in occupancy, then why tie occupancy war into the proposal?

FYI, certain plexes already operate in this manner. The NPCs are activated (in some cases) when you start the timer, not when you enter the plex. Otherwise they stay inactive.

And, all you need to do is open up one of these plexes (or missions) in a heavy pvp system like Tama, OMS, or Heyd and you'll get all the pvp action you want.


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.06.08 20:19:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Cearain
Well either npcs are “blob equalizers”, like DR. battlesmith is saying , or they are “next to nothing.” But you both can’t be right. I think they are one thing – dampeners on pvp.

You need to read and understand what I actually said, no where did I say they were "next to nothing". I said the damage can be shrugged off but the eWar is what breaks them .. remove all NPC eWar and be done with it.
Pirates have no qualms about taking what little damage the NPCs give, be it in plexes or on gates. The only "WTF..Grrrr" I have ever heard from them is that they were webbed, neuted, painted, jammed, dampened etc. (ie. the eWar) by the rats so they bailed/died/didn't loot .. very rarely do I hear damage from rats mentioned as reason for a missed opportunity.

If you assault a plex that you have not previously been in there is no spawns of consequence, if you are running a timer without clearing rats when an enemy comes in then the fault is your own .. stop speed tanking the bloody things and NPC's become a trifle.
A lesson you are free to pass on to the 50%-shields-runner example you gave .. a couple of guys in proper ships (yes even PvP fitted) can wipe out all spawns almost as fast as they arrive.


You need a “couple of guys” in “proper fits” just to kill the rats? Why not just do away with the rats so you can bring unqualified pvp fits. Not a little bit suboptimal for pvp but “proper” for plexing fits.

Frowning at everyone who speed tanks the npcs in plexes, even though that is an effective way to plex under the current system, is no real solution.

The basic problem I presented is still the same. Either the rats have no effect or they have an effect. The only effects rats have is that they tend deter pvp. You suggest we mitigate this by taking their stronger effects such as ewar so that they can be “shrugged off.” So it’s just a little bit annoying. But of course reduce ewar and you have more speed tanking. Why not just be done with the stupid npcs and be done with it?

People who do plexes generally want to have some sort of active tank ability. This doesn’t do well with pvp. If you don’t have some sort of pve active tank you are likely to get caught with some of your tank missing. This stuff is why no one wants to bother with these plexes. (well that and no one may even know you are there)


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.06.08 20:24:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Cearain
If we did away with npcs we would make plexing and occupancy pvp but not without strategy. I think the strategy in fw pvp would be some of the richest in eve.

You cannot possibly be that naive. Look at Amarr space, a BC-down blob could linger in Dal/Amamake and reach any Amarr FW system within 5-6 minutes. The whole splitting the blob up will NEVER happen unless you give them reason .. allowing any non-noob ship to plex with not even NPC interference does not.


Ok that’s a good example. Consider what would happen if we take a large BC-down gang in Amamake lets say they are faction A. The other side (faction B) is well aware of this large gang. (after all its in that crossroads system) So faction B actually uses some strategy in their attacks. The fc of faction B makes sure everyone enters the plexes at roughly the same time. So fc of the blob in faction A sees that there is a minor plex open with 3 frigates in Asghed, then there is a medium that pops open with 2 cruisers in aset, A major with 2 battleships in taff and a medium with 2 cruiser in sahtogas. (here is a map for those who may not be familiar with the area http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Amarr_VS_Minmatar#sec)

So as the leader of faction A you have some options.

Option 1: Stay in a big blob and start trecking to each system. You chase the smaller gangs out of the plex and then plod on to the next system. Your gang won’t likely actually catch anyone as the people in the plex will see local spike and get aligned to a station. As soon as your big fleet moves out they will jump back in the plex. I don’t think anyone will do that.

Option 2: Try to send fast scouts out to each of the different systems. (yes of course maybe not all of the gang went in the plex.) Get an idea of who is in or out of each plex and then break up your blob to try to fight them and hold the plexes yourself.

Not only does option 2 make more sense. It sounds like a hell of a lot more fun than the current system. I think it also sounds like more fun than anything else in eve right now. Moreover, it doesn’t take much in the way of changing. We don’t need to reinvent fw. Just do 2 things and fw would be great. (well again make plexes spawn more often and not mainly at downtime would be important too)

Of course there are very many other options than the one I mentioned but the main point is option 1 is a not gonna work. Strategies will develop. FW militias will start to say hey *why not* fight in these plexes. They will make for good easy to get (yet not staged) fun fights. What is not to like about it?

I tell you what if ccp does these changes and they don’t work well then I will support you in some sort of big overhaul of fw. But I really think the fw system is quite good it’s just that there are couple of changes that would dramatically improve it.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.06.08 20:44:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: X Gallentius
Nice suggestions, but if you're not interested in occupancy, then why tie occupancy war into the proposal?

FYI, certain plexes already operate in this manner. The NPCs are activated (in some cases) when you start the timer, not when you enter the plex. Otherwise they stay inactive.

And, all you need to do is open up one of these plexes (or missions) in a heavy pvp system like Tama, OMS, or Heyd and you'll get all the pvp action you want.



I’m glad your warming to the suggestions.
You ask a fair question. It doesn’t really need to tie in to occupancy – other than I think winning faction war should have something to do with pvp instead of just pve. I fully understand others will disagree and will like fw occupancy to remain pve centered. Even if the system was not contested (so it doesn’t really effect occupancy) I would still probably jump in the plexes to get good fights without constantly getting blobbed.

Usually by the time of night I play all the plexes in the busy systems auga amamake dal are closed. I do often try to jump from place to place to get a level 1 or 2 mission in a busy system. But there are just too many backwater systems so its rare that I get one. Even if I do the other side (or the pirates) doesn’t really know what the size restriction on the mission is before hand. So even in auga (an enemy hub) I will just sit there unless I post in local asking for a fight.

I’m sure most don’t even bother to check mission or plexes with the assumption that if I see them come I will just warp off. That is the way the current system works. I don’t mind asking for a fight in local but I would really prefer the spontaneity of not knowing who will show up etc.

If you like to pvp in smaller gangs just think about how this would work. It may be that there should be overall more plexes spawning though out the day. I tend to think many people who gave up on fw might come back if there were a decent pvp system, like this. I just doubt many read fw threads anymore. If you like the idea, spread the word, and support the thread. If you don’t feel free to post the issue you have.

Nauplius
Amarr
1st Praetorian Guard
Posted - 2010.06.09 03:00:00 - [21]
 

How about:

— Introduce the notification to chat channels when someone starts running a plex timer, as mentioned.

Drastically reduce the number of plexes. Plexes spawn in waves of between one and maybe five plexes (exact number debatable). When all the plexes in a wave are completed, a new wave spawns.

— Plexes should spawn only in systems adjacent to a system occupied by the enemy (the "border"). Maybe one jump off that. (Some special case would be needed for the situation when one a faction occupies the entire warzone).

— Ideally, weight the number of plexes per wave by player load. During way off peak hours only one or two might spawn. On peak would more likely see five or whatever the max number of plexes per wave is.

— Remove the NPCs.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2010.06.10 00:55:00 - [22]
 

You're skipping over solutions to chase a "big idea".

You say that plex PvP only happens around downtime.
This is true. Thus the solution to your timezone not enjoying plex in the same way is to fix the broken spawning mechanic.

You say that NPCS unbalance the plex.
This is true. It is their ewar that is unbalanced and it needs to be removed from all navy NPCs.

Both these issues have been known for a long time and CCP has taken no action.

These major changes aren't needed, just 2 very simple broken things that have been known about since day 1 need to be fixed.

Aerilis
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate

Posted - 2010.06.12 10:29:00 - [23]
 

tl;dr

but if there's even a minute chance of getting a dev to read this thread and maybe think "golly me, fw sure is broken, lets fix it!", I'll vote for it.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.06.14 16:14:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
You're skipping over solutions to chase a "big idea".

You say that plex PvP only happens around downtime.
This is true. Thus the solution to your timezone not enjoying plex in the same way is to fix the broken spawning mechanic.

You say that NPCS unbalance the plex.
This is true. It is their ewar that is unbalanced and it needs to be removed from all navy NPCs.

Both these issues have been known for a long time and CCP has taken no action.

These major changes aren't needed, just 2 very simple broken things that have been known about since day 1 need to be fixed.



I agree that plexes need to spawn much more often throughout the day.

But you say we need to remove the ewar from the npcs. (you say this will balance the npcs – I have my doubts but maybe your right) I just don’t see why we have npcs at all. To the extent they have an effect on the pvp fights it’s a negative effect. Removing npcs will balance things won’t it?

What do you think of the idea of letting militias know where and when a plex is entered? I suppose this is the biggest change of my proposal. It’s not really a big change. It’s just an improvement to help pvpers get fights faster. No more wandering around hoping to find someone in a plex that won’t immediately warp off.

You can have plexes all over but to the extent you have npcs in the plexes people will need to pve their fits. And if we don’t know where they are that means we do a lot of roaming around for nothing.

BFish
Gallente
Bushwhackers
Rough Necks
Posted - 2010.06.17 07:30:00 - [25]
 

I disagree with OP.

Back in my FW days when it first came out, I remember hanging around in a fleet of roughly 30 people, sitting around in a system when someone would say on eve voice "Guys, I just heard that the squids have contested *Insert system here*", and the hype, confusion and adrenaline fueled race to that system that followed.

Plexes may not be every's PVP cup of tea, but plexes cause PVP whether you like it or not. Smile

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.06.17 14:57:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: BFish
I disagree with OP.

Back in my FW days when it first came out, I remember hanging around in a fleet of roughly 30 people, sitting around in a system when someone would say on eve voice "Guys, I just heard that the squids have contested *Insert system here*", and the hype, confusion and adrenaline fueled race to that system that followed.




BFish those days are gone. People have since realized that “hide and go seek” pve plexing is the optimal way to plex with the current mechanics. They orbit the button and finish the plex before anyone sees them. If they get seen then it’s often a mismatch leading to them either warping off or the other side not going in. There are exceptions but that is the general protocol - if you want to plex in an optimal way.

People who used to do what you described have long since figured this out about the current occupancy mechanic. Now the vast majority of fw pilots rightly think the plexing mechanic is too stupid to bother with. Its time to adjust the mechanic so people will start doing what you describe again.

Patrice Macmahon
The Lost Minmatar Legion
Posted - 2010.06.18 00:15:00 - [27]
 

I like the premise to this.

To reduce the uber blob events, you could push the idea of arena style capture points, each fw side only gets so many ships within a particular compound. But that could lead to alt abuse and other implications.

But if there was some way to emphasize small, well formed squads inside of complexes duking it out, you could remove the NPC's and let the factions honestly go at it.

I mean, you'll still have the massive combat in the systems exteiror to the compound, those are allways fun, but once inside it would become more tactics specific rather than shear numbers specific.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.06.21 15:11:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Patrice Macmahon
I like the premise to this.

To reduce the uber blob events, you could push the idea of arena style capture points, each fw side only gets so many ships within a particular compound. But that could lead to alt abuse and other implications.

But if there was some way to emphasize small, well formed squads inside of complexes duking it out, you could remove the NPC's and let the factions honestly go at it.

I mean, you'll still have the massive combat in the systems exteiror to the compound, those are allways fun, but once inside it would become more tactics specific rather than shear numbers specific.


I'm glad you like the idea.

The plexes themselves do not limit the actual number of ships that can go in. But they do limit the types of hulls that can go in. This can very helpful for breaking up blobs, because if there is a large bs blob you can simply take medium or minor plexes.

The side that has fewer pilots can still work toward occupancy by trying to get equal numbers for 1 of 4 different plex sizes. They go something like destroyer/faction frig and down for minors. Cruiser and down for medium. BC and down for ?major? and finally open plexes allow anything. So even if you only have 10 active pilots and the other side has 20 you may still be able to put everyone in cruisers and hold a medium plex before the other side can get everyone in cruisers. Your ability to coordinate your attacks becomes more important than just blobbing around.

This would be an important addition to EVE pvp as a whole, as currently every pvp mechanic in eve lacks any real strategic component other than “form blob and attack.”

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.06.21 21:16:00 - [29]
 

Your suggestion still changes nothing. Plex timer = hide and seek. PvPers get bored chasing afk plexing alts and move on to do something else. afk plexing alt returns and caps plex.

If one side wants fight - nothing happens. FW is fail! FW is for losers!

If both sides want fight - something happens. Plexes Rule!!!! Awesome fights! Love all around.

There is no substantial figure of merit that can be implemented that will change this.

Assume one side wants to win Occupancy War, or perhaps make some isk off of LPs for plexes (another suggested proposal) - not get into fights.
If figure of merit is # of kills in plex - never enter plex. Pvper bored.
If figure of merit is timer - Bail, do something else, and return when pvp threat leaves. Pvper bored.
If figure of merit is killing all npcs - Bail, do something else, and return when pvp threat leaves. Pvper bored.

etc....


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.06.22 04:31:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: X Gallentius
Your suggestion still changes nothing. Plex timer = hide and seek. PvPers get bored chasing afk plexing alts and move on to do something else. afk plexing alt returns and caps plex.



No there would be no more hide and seek plexing. Every time you entered a plex your presence will be announced to everyone in all the militias. There would be a separate channel (maybe 2 -1 for each front) like the current militia channel but it would only give broadcasts. If I entered a minor plex in Ammamake in my merlin it would broadcast something like:


"Ammamake; minor Amarr:Cearain frigate"

*Everyone* in fw would get this message. You can call entering a plex whatever you want but it won’t be “hiding”. It will be the opposite. It will be announcing where you are for the next 10-20 minutes if anyone wants to come fight.

In the scenario above once you chase the first guy off you can close the plex. All the while you will be announcing where *you* are for the next few minutes. So if you are looking for good pvp that will be the way to do it.

If no one wants to pvp then maybe no one will come. But I think that’s unlikely. If this announcement mechanic is implemented you will get company if you enter a plex. This will make FW the best small gang pvp in eve.


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