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blankseplocked Tools of detection: how prey and predator could coexist
 
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Haze zec
Posted - 2010.05.31 17:59:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Haze zec on 01/06/2010 22:35:45

CCP has done a very good job with balancing these tools to work for both sides:

Prey:
-has local
-has directional scan
-which also shows scan probes
-has star map statistics

Predator:
-has local
-has directional scan
-has scan probes
-has star map statistics

As you can see both have an equal amount of tools they can use to work with. The prey can look at local for potential threats, can check directional scanner for hostile ships and probes and can see star map statistics for recent violent activities.
Same goes for the predator. He can look at local for potential targets, he can quickly find them with directional scanner or in case of missioners quickly probe them down and can use the star map to see where there has been a lot of recent travelers.

The question now is even though the tools work good for both sides, do they actually improve the game as a whole? Is it really beneficial to the experience of both parties while playing? Some might think so but I tend to disagree.

The problem I see here is that both parties have too many tools ensuring their success. The prey can successfully avoid getting caught and the predator can successfully find it's prey which means that unless either of the parties is a novice player nothing is going to happen. The pray will not get caught and the predator will not have anything to catch.

What I propose though is to take some of these tools away so that both parties have less chance of succeeding and therefore making the chase unpredictable and more interesting, exciting and especially longer so that the prey can run a mission but not always escape and the predator have something to hunt but not always score.

Suggestion nr. 1:

Change local to constellation chat (usually 6-12 systems). This way both the pray and the predator can know they are in the same constellation but wont know in which system exactly. The predator will have to spend a longer time searching for it's prey and the prey will have a harder time knowing when it's time to run.

(Hubs could easily keep their local to avoid lag problems.)

Suggestion nr. 2:

Change directional scanner to half it's range (max 7au) and remove the 5 and 15 degree scan. Doing so it's going to be harder for the pray to get a notice of a potential threat but also make it harder to be found by the predator.


Suggestion nr. 3:

Change combat probes while scanning for ships to pick up mirror hits or some kind of other interference to make it harder to scan for ships but also remove them from directional scan until they are within 3au. Again so that the predator has a hard time finding his prey and the prey doesn't get a too fast of a warning.

(3au is something I made up but should probably be the min probe scan range to get a 100% hit with max skills/implants/bonuses/rigs)

Suggestion nr. 4:

Change stargates to spawn you in the new system say 50km in a random direction from the gate. This last suggestion is probably the least well thought of but the reasons why I put it here is because right now gate camps are doing too much harm to the traffic to anywhere but high sec so making it harder to camp but yet still possible to get caught is IMO a change in the right direction. Obviously it's possible to achieve that through a number of ways that I couldn't think of so please feel free to chime in with your own suggestions.

In summary these changes together would cause New Aden to become a lot more unpredictable and mysterious which I believe in a space MMO can only be a good thing and would go a long way with bringing new players to the game and current players out to the more dangerous parts of our space.

What do you think?

p.s.: I used to be a pirate and can find you in under 2min.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.05.31 18:38:00 - [2]
 

Suggestion #4 would make 0.0 mining horribly dangerous. The gatecamps that you hate are also the only means of making space safe. Once you own some space, you will realise how necessary they are.

Haze zec
Posted - 2010.05.31 19:40:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Haze zec on 01/06/2010 09:43:33
TL;DR:

Both prey and predator have 4 main tools to ensure their survival and success which in turn, unless either of them are novice players the pray will not get caught and the predator will not catch anything.

It makes sense to change these tools to less effective so both parties have a harder time succeeding which would make EVE space a more unpredictable and exciting place.

Goose99
Posted - 2010.05.31 20:19:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Suggestion #4 would make 0.0 mining horribly dangerous. The gatecamps that you hate are also the only means of making space safe. Once you own some space, you will realise how necessary they are.


No offense, but sov null is TOO safe. In some backwater systems, you can go on for weeks without seeing a single hostile. You're more likely to get suicide ganked in highsec hubs than get killed there.

I like it, this makes sov null more fluid. You can blitz deep into enemy territory and play cat & mouse with them, outnumbered, outgunned, but not screwed. Think of the fun and havoc! Macro-ratters be damned. This would make null the way it's supposed to be, as opposed to highsec on steroids/farmville heaven.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2010.05.31 22:20:00 - [5]
 

I support the general concepts here. However missions can spawn you anywhere in system. I actually have safe spots 20-25au outside the solar system because that's where the mission was. I would not change that with your proposal however. I have an extensive pirating history and fully agree that probing out missioners is far too easy unless they are spamming scan every 3 seconds.

Haze zec
Posted - 2010.06.01 09:44:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Suggestion #4 would make 0.0 mining horribly dangerous. The gatecamps that you hate are also the only means of making space safe. Once you own some space, you will realise how necessary they are.

Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.


My suggestions are a package deal. Remember the tittle? It said reverse balance not unbalance. If you single out any of the suggestions I made you're missing my point entirely.

With regards to 0.0 mining I have to politely disagree with you. Since last december through february I have been apart of regular mining ops in wormhole space where there not only is no local but a random wormhole with hostiles can pop up at any moment and yet we haven't lost a single ship. Of course we couldn't afford to afk mine and over extend. We had to have everyone on the ball and dedicated security. I'm sure if our small corp managed to secure two wormhole systems for the time of the op your big alliance can do the same with your space. Unless you are overextended already then I guess you are willing to sacrifice security for more sovereignty.. no?

And finally I didn't propose these changes to help the new players but to bring more unpredictability and excitement to eve which in turn I do believe would help out many novice players in a broader then high sec experience.

EDIT: And I do not hate gate camps, I've done my fair share of that my self most of the time as the predator and a few times as the prey. I just realize how horrible they are if we want more people in either low or null sec.

The Augmentor
Posted - 2010.06.01 10:50:00 - [7]
 

problem is not the balancing of tools...everyone has the same game...its largely time factors.....while it takes you 2 mins to scan down a missioner (and thats all you are doing) that missioner is required to do a lot more in that time. he has to co-ordinate an attack/salvage/loot and do the defensive job of monitoring the system too, this it why the system is unbalanced, and why a lot of people use carriers for level 5s....if defence was slightly more automated...maybe a chance of alerts when someone is getting close to pinpointing you, you couldnt be ambushed so easily...im sure ccp would love to add some more skills into the game for this

obviously this couldnt protect a miner in a belt as there is no need to scan down, most pvpers just warp into belts, so only the mission runners would be safer, which i believe is what you are getting at. anyway miners dont have much to do except be defensive.

attack would still be up to the player though as you never need to attack 2 things at once.

Haze zec
Posted - 2010.06.01 11:35:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Haze zec on 01/06/2010 11:35:44
The Augmentor, I think you didn't completely understand what I was getting at.

It's the direction of balancing that I'm concerned with.

You would like both sides to have tools that guarantee their success in either catching someone or not getting caught. Problem is that if everyone knows that they can be caught easily and have tools to 100% of the time avoid it the missioners aren't going to wait around to get caught which will render their attempt at missions inefficient wheres the pirates won't have anything to hunt for even though they have all the tools to be 100% successful at it.

Which is basically what we have in low sec right now. A sort of stalemate..

Now my argument is that instead of giving both sides more tools, let's take them away so BOTH sides have a bigger struggle in succeeding. Missioners will have a harder time not getting caught but because pirates will have a harder time finding them the reward over the risk now might entice them to go to low sec and pirates will finally have plenty of targets to look for although they wont be able to find all of them.

The Augmentor
Posted - 2010.06.01 12:03:00 - [9]
 

if it works how you say i tend to agree.....i just think missioners have a lot more to deal with than the guy scanning them down and it needs to be very carefully balanced so the pirate has more to do....2 mins to scan someone down is definately too fast.

supercombatguy33
Posted - 2010.06.01 12:07:00 - [10]
 

I really like the idea of eliminating local chat (for 0.0 only) and having constellation chats only.

The only problem is that it'll be easer to know that there's a gatecamp or something in a constellation right when you jump in, so it will be harder to surprise people. this is why I support delayed local like in wspace, or have a combination and only have constellation chat, with a delayed member list like now.

Haze zec
Posted - 2010.06.01 12:17:00 - [11]
 

supercombatguy33, there might be a bit truth to your concern but it's exactly what I am was aiming for

Constellations consists of 6 to 13 systems I think. Once you have all the people in those systems appear in a chat box, and you see 50 people, how are you going to know that 15 are idling in stations 5 are mining 15 are ratting and 15 are running missions. Or that 10 are mining and 40 are gatecamping..

I think the only information you will get is that there are pilots in those systems but you wont know what they are up to until you actually find them.


David Grogan
Gallente
The Motley Crew Reborn
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2010.06.01 12:29:00 - [12]
 

the problem with the imbalance between prey and predator in low sec is often because the prey is active tanking rats which is no good when a pve fit vs a pvp fit

to fix this imbalance ccp would need to make active tanking a viable option in pvp.

ways this could be done is by either
1. boosting the base resists by 10% making for a better tank which means it could hold out long enough to be able to fight back or call in help
or
2. reducing the size of cap booster charges so active tanker ships could maintain their tanks for a few minutes at least which would be long enough to call in help or fight off smaller ships.

Haze zec
Posted - 2010.06.01 12:56:00 - [13]
 

David Grogan, I'm sorry but your post is completely off topic.

This thread deals with the balance of tools either side can use to either avoid getting caught or to succeed catching.

Haze zec
Posted - 2010.06.01 17:09:00 - [14]
 

I edited the first post and the title so it makes more sense and is easier to understand. English is not my native language :P

DTson Gauur
Caldari
Blend.
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2010.06.01 17:28:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Haze zec

Suggestion nr. 2:

Change directional scanner to half it's range (max 7au) and remove the 5 and 15 degree scan. Doing so it's going to be harder for the pray to get a notice of a potential threat but also make it harder to be found by the predator.

(Fun fact: no anomaly/signature ever spawns more then 4au away from the nearest planet.)



Wrong, plexes, mission pockets, etc. can spawn way further than 4au of closest CELESTIAL OBJECT (Yes, even a stargate). This was changed few expansion back. I've personally had mission pockets 15+ au from closest celestial (Yes, beyond dir.scan. range).

ANOMALIES (the ones you find with the internal scanner) are exception to this rule since the internal scanner range is locked to 4au.

Haze zec
Posted - 2010.06.01 22:33:00 - [16]
 

DTson Gauur thank you for the info. I'll remove that "fun fact" comment from my first post.

But what do you think of the concepts that I proposed?

Haze zec
Posted - 2010.06.02 11:07:00 - [17]
 

More comments please.

BzydaL
Posted - 2010.06.02 11:41:00 - [18]
 

predator has cloaks and they can use it and stay afk as long as they want - prey... LOL - no comments.
The only you achive is more ppl doing mission in highsec - even now you can observe that during any bigger war afk're in cloak appear in any system where ppl are ratting, producing or even supply stuff to interupt their activity and few days after all that activities are moving to highsec.
(was obserwed some ratters exous couple days ago ;p - and yup - it was because of war).

thx of your suggestion you'll get null without halp of current number of ppl.
And to the other hand - try to encourage any high-sec to leave their current safe place and tell him: you can fight with us, it give you fun, you'll be able to saw how pvp is nice but remember - you cant earn money here or you'll be DIED ;p
rotfl

Bender 01000010
Caldari
EVE-RO
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2010.06.02 11:50:00 - [19]
 

Suggestion nr. 4:

I will be fine that the star gates should launch you randomly in the next solar system in empty space somewhere below or under the orbits of planets.. and then you can warp wherever you want in that solar system..

DTson Gauur
Caldari
Blend.
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2010.06.02 14:34:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Haze zec

But what do you think of the concepts that I proposed?


Perfectly honest? Rubbish, it won't solve the problem, just shift it. As it is the predators have all the advantages on their side and the prey has nothing.

the prey has to account for the type of NPC he is shooting,

gimp #1: His tank is already slanted to block only certain damage types well.
gimp #2: prey has to use his ships slots to managing his tank. Be it shield or armor, capacitor mods are in high order = no room for PVP equipment.

Until such a time that the ship FITTINGS are in overall balance, ie. you can successfully do your NPC stuff in PVP fit (YES _I KNOW_ it's perfectly possible already with certain ships, but only a select few) nothing else will matter squat.

Haze zec
Posted - 2010.06.02 22:52:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: DTson Gauur

Perfectly honest? Rubbish, it won't solve the problem, just shift it. As it is the predators have all the advantages on their side and the prey has nothing.


I'm sorry but it looks like you didn't even read my post. If you did you couldn't make a claim like that since I made a very good argument that all for suggestions would make it both harder to get found and harder notice something looking for you.

And to comment on your own suggestions, well if I understand what you're saying you just want a "i win" ship that can fend of every situation possible. Well in eve there's no such thing. And even if you had what you want, once you get found in a mission you think you'll be able to fend off the most likely MULTIPLE hostiles?

Fending them of is not a problem right now, as long as you pay attention to local and directional scanner you can't get caught in the first place. It's just that you being able to prevent getting found will force you to often stop in the middle of a mission and hide and those hunting you will obviously not even get a chance to catch you. And since hiding all the time is inefficient you wont even bother and that is why low sec is almost empty. Not because you can't tank the rats and the hostiles..

DTson Gauur
Caldari
Blend.
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2010.06.03 06:31:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Haze zec

I'm sorry but it looks like you didn't even read my post. If you did you couldn't make a claim like that since I made a very good argument that all for suggestions would make it both harder to get found and harder notice something looking for you.



Oh I did read it, it has really nothing that would make the game better.

Lets go over the suggestions 1 by 1:

#1 Shift local to constellation: Ok, now what? Your average 'bear will still not move an inch if there's even one unknown he can see in chat. So instead of 1 system, there's now a whole constellation docked up/safed up.

#2 Directional change: You obviously haven't flown the smaller faster ships. It's already PITA to scan systems when you warp at 10+ au/s, this would make it so hard it would force people to quit and it really doesn't solve anything at all, since directional scanner really isn't used that much. Probes are the mainstay tool of the current age Pirate.

#3 Probe change: Have you even USED them? What you describe is already there. So your suggestion doesn't add anything.

#4 Gate changes: two words: Regional Gates. This change wouldn't really do anything to improve travel or pirating. It's already damn near impossible to catch anything on a Regional gate and you want to make it even harder. For nullsec this would mean that roaming gangs would have total freedom. Let's say that your 50km radius went live, this would mean you'd need about 30 Large T2 bubbles to cover a SYSTEM gate 100% (the smallest radius). I don't even want to know how many a Regional Gate would need...

As I said, it will only shift the problem. Remove local totally like in W-space or make it a part of a sov-upgrade so you gotta pay for the privilege to have instant intel. Of course empire space would still have local because well... it's empire space.

Quote:

And to comment on your own suggestions, well if I understand what you're saying you just want a "i win" ship that can fend of every situation possible. Well in eve there's no such thing. And even if you had what you want, once you get found in a mission you think you'll be able to fend off the most likely MULTIPLE hostiles?



Ever been in W-space? Know how the Sleepers act? I don't want a "I Win" ship, I just want it to be fair to both sides. Until such a time that the base NPCs in Eve have Sleeper like AI the predator is always stronger, he already knows what damage types to pack when going hunting in an area, because he knows what kind of damage the NPCs in that area do.

Quote:

Fending them of is not a problem right now, as long as you pay attention to local and directional scanner you can't get caught in the first place. It's just that you being able to prevent getting found will force you to often stop in the middle of a mission and hide and those hunting you will obviously not even get a chance to catch you. And since hiding all the time is inefficient you wont even bother and that is why low sec is almost empty. Not because you can't tank the rats and the hostiles..



What I want is an environment where the appearance of a single Pirate won't spell doom for the player NPCing as it now does if he gets caught. Change to Sleeper type AI and reworking missions, plexes etc so that it's more like PVP type environment will do this. If the guy is stupid enough to not try and kill/get away from the initial tackler he should die.

Lowsec is empty for more reasons than just mission running not being profitable. Lowsec has nothing for your average empire player, period. It's a desolate wasteland because the Pirates have every possible advantage and the rest have nothing.

Haze zec
Posted - 2010.06.03 09:59:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: DTson Gauur
#1 Shift local to constellation: Ok, now what? Your average 'bear will still not move an inch if there's even one unknown he can see in chat. So instead of 1 system, there's now a whole constellation docked up/safed up.


Let's agree to disagree on this one. I maintain that if you see people who are spread through 6 to 13 systems it wont scare you into running especially if with the rest of my suggestions you know it's very hard for them to find you.

Originally by: DTson Gauur
#2 Directional change: You obviously haven't flown the smaller faster ships. It's already PITA to scan systems when you warp at 10+ au/s, this would make it so hard it would force people to quit and it really doesn't solve anything at all, since directional scanner really isn't used that much. Probes are the mainstay tool of the current age Pirate.


This is where I can see you don't really know how to use directional scanner well. When ever I'm looking for someone in a system directional scanner is the primary tool I use and it's so effective I know exactly where you are within a min, max 2. And by know where you are I don't mean "he could be around planet 4" but "he is exactly at planet 4 moon 8".

Originally by: DTson Gauur
#3 Probe change: Have you even USED them? What you describe is already there. So your suggestion doesn't add anything.


:) funny thing you should ask. I and my corp have managed several times to probe our targets down with them having our probes on directional scan for max 15sec. That's all it takes and I'm not even exaggerating.

Originally by: DTson Gauur
#4 Gate changes: two words: Regional Gates. This change wouldn't really do anything to improve travel or pirating. It's already damn near impossible to catch anything on a Regional gate and you want to make it even harder. For nullsec this would mean that roaming gangs would have total freedom. Let's say that your 50km radius went live, this would mean you'd need about 30 Large T2 bubbles to cover a SYSTEM gate 100% (the smallest radius). I don't even want to know how many a Regional Gate would need...


Let's agree to disagree on this one also. I unlike you I do not think that a big alliance holding a null sec region is automatically entitled to never worry about their inner systems as long they have 1 single gate on lock down.

Originally by: DTson Gauur
Ever been in W-space? Know how the Sleepers act? I don't want a "I Win" ship, I just want it to be fair to both sides. Until such a time that the base NPCs in Eve have Sleeper like AI the predator is always stronger, he already knows what damage types to pack when going hunting in an area, because he knows what kind of damage the NPCs in that area do.

What I want is an environment where the appearance of a single Pirate won't spell doom for the player NPCing as it now does if he gets caught. Change to Sleeper type AI and reworking missions, plexes etc so that it's more like PVP type environment will do this. If the guy is stupid enough to not try and kill/get away from the initial tackler he should die.


Well since I currently live in W-space I know exactly what you are thinking off. But unfortunately you are wrong in thinking that sleepers AI can save you even against just 1 or 2 players. Here's the evidence: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=10011896 - this guy was in a combat site in a class 2 worm hole. Did the sleepers help him? Why yes in the end they did switch to my corp mate. Did they save him? No, he went down and we were both ok.

Originally by: DTson Gauur
Lowsec is empty for more reasons than just mission running not being profitable. Lowsec has nothing for your average empire player, period. It's a desolate wasteland because the Pirates have every possible advantage and the rest have nothing.


Understanding players behavior in a game is very simple. You just have to understand human nature. If you do, the answers to why low sec is empty are crystal clear.


 

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