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blankseplocked So why did "widescreen" go the way of "medium shader" again?
 
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Grez
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
Posted - 2010.06.02 09:37:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Legs Mackenzie
Originally by: James Tritanius
Let's hope Mac compatibility does not go the way of the Medium Shader. I doubt it though, since Mac users contribute to a large chunk of the customer base (around 17%?) and they'll cancel sub if this happens.
100m on it being "too expensive to maintain" within three years.

Mark my words.
When even "omgz, non-MS systems blows!!"-Valve is getting on to the Mac train, it's probably not something you want to jump off of without some serious thought…


Valve did that due to Steam being a platform to distribute games, and the obvious market opening up on Mac. They had to give something to the Mac people so that Steam on Mac had something initially. No other reason. EVE should be treated differently, as it's not a platform for selling games.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.02 09:44:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Grez
Valve did that due to Steam being a platform to distribute games, and the obvious market opening up on Mac. They had to give something to the Mac people so that Steam on Mac had something initially. No other reason. EVE should be treated differently, as it's not a platform for selling games.
Confused The point is: since there is that obvious market opening up on Mac, closing down your established business in that market because it's "too expensive to maintain" doesn't make much sense.

Nooma K'Larr
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.06.02 09:54:00 - [123]
 

Define "too expensive to maintain."

Is that code for "too hard to fix."

Grez
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
Posted - 2010.06.02 10:18:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Grez
Valve did that due to Steam being a platform to distribute games, and the obvious market opening up on Mac. They had to give something to the Mac people so that Steam on Mac had something initially. No other reason. EVE should be treated differently, as it's not a platform for selling games.
Confused The point is: since there is that obvious market opening up on Mac, closing down your established business in that market because it's "too expensive to maintain" doesn't make much sense.


If maintaining a seperate code base entirely, or re-writing the existing one from scratch costs more than the return from likely other platforms, then yes, it's too expensive to maintain.

EVE would have to switch from using DirectX to OpenGL for this to work, which would take some time to do, and in doing so, might void some of their partnerships. Hence they would have to maintain both sets. Not to mention that OpenGL is severely lagging behind DirectX currently (OpenGL 3 was meant to come with much more than it did, and ended up just being an extension of OpenGL 2, which was already an extension of 1). So you'd be tampering with CCP's vision of EVE and how they want you to view it.

And that's just the rendering part of it - the sound engine, network engine, etc - might require a Windows platform or some form of emulation to work properly.

Regardless, this is not about this. Some things in the software industry do not outweigh the cost of maintaining a feature, like seen with the Medium Shader (not enough of the populace used it for them to warrant maintaining an entirely separate shader pipe).

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.02 10:22:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Grez
If maintaining a seperate code base entirely, or re-writing the existing one from scratch costs more than the return from likely other platforms, then yes, it's too expensive to maintain.
…but that's not what they're doing. The codebase is the same, and the work going into the emulation layer is mostly done by third parties.

Libin Herobi
Posted - 2010.06.02 10:43:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Libin Herobi on 02/06/2010 10:43:39
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Grez
Valve did that due to Steam being a platform to distribute games, and the obvious market opening up on Mac. They had to give something to the Mac people so that Steam on Mac had something initially. No other reason. EVE should be treated differently, as it's not a platform for selling games.
Confused The point is: since there is that obvious market opening up on Mac, closing down your established business in that market because it's "too expensive to maintain" doesn't make much sense.


Whether the game market on Mac is increasing or not is not relevant.
The only thing that matters is the number of EVE players using Mac.
If that number drops / stays belows a certain level the Mac client will be binned.

Remember the Linux client?
Gaming on Linux is certainly increasing as well but the Linux client was dropped nonetheless.


Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Grez
If maintaining a seperate code base entirely, or re-writing the existing one from scratch costs more than the return from likely other platforms, then yes, it's too expensive to maintain.
…but that's not what they're doing. The codebase is the same, and the work going into the emulation layer is mostly done by third parties.



BREAKING NEWS!! Researcher discovered that third party services cost money as well. Development costs do not vanish just because you move the task to someone else. Shocked

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.06.02 10:59:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Libin Herobi
Remember the Linux client?
Gaming on Linux is certainly increasing as well but the Linux client was dropped nonetheless.
Yup. It was dropped because they could support it for zero cost, so the movement of the market became rather irrelevant… Wink

…or well, I should say "support" it, really.

Buddy Friend
Posted - 2010.06.02 11:14:00 - [128]
 

Is it my imagination, or was widescreen nothing more than blacking out purty space in a bar from the top and the bottom of the viewscreen?
It didn't seem to mask anything other than background and objects in space.
Brackets weren't masked.
Why is this so hard?

Damiez
Amarr
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2010.06.02 11:52:00 - [129]
 

TBH, I stopped looking at the display ages ago, even having the system map up most the time. All I was interested in was who is in my overview, who may be arriving on my directional scan and whats for dinner tonite...

Only switch the graphics on to watch the pretty explosions, and yes, I used Widescreen for that due to partial colour blindness, but I don't miss it.....

Buddy Friend
Posted - 2010.06.02 11:59:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Damiez
TBH, I stopped looking at the display ages ago, even having the system map up most the time. All I was interested in was who is in my overview


Heh overview.

Scylla Prophet
Posted - 2010.06.02 12:38:00 - [131]
 

I sure used it. A consistant black background behind the top and bottom of the screen made eve playable.

Scylla Prophet
Posted - 2010.06.02 14:31:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
No, if we have a better picture of the reason it was used then we can go find a solution that is friendlier to maintain. Sadly our data doesnt show how people used it and why, we only get that information from players so it was diffecult to replace it if we didn't know what the issues were exactly that the widescreen option addressed.

Take the example of 'it gives me more space for the UI windows'. That is a UI problem and can be fixed in several ways, all ways that will be play a lot nicer with the rests of EVE's architecture.

We really appreciate the feedback and we'll keep an eye on the discussions about it.


The informationon the screen was very hard to read with the outerspace background. I used wide screen so I could have a solid black background behind the display. It is the same reason I prefer widescreen format for movies because it makes thesubtitles more readable.

I certainly hope you can come up with a solution before my subscription expires.

Khanoonian Singh
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.06.02 14:35:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Khanoonian Singh on 02/06/2010 14:57:18
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
No, if we have a better picture of the reason it was used then we can go find a solution that is friendlier to maintain. Sadly our data doesnt show how people used it and why, we only get that information from players so it was diffecult to replace it if we didn't know what the issues were exactly that the widescreen option addressed.

Take the example of 'it gives me more space for the UI windows'. That is a UI problem and can be fixed in several ways, all ways that will be play a lot nicer with the rests of EVE's architecture.

We really appreciate the feedback and we'll keep an eye on the discussions about it.



I used it to actually see my modules, chat boxes and overview, the black provided a nice contrast to actually see, where the bright as hell nebulas often washed everything out.

edit: I have a properly calibrated widescreen monitor, I am not colorblind, and I realize it was just two black bars laid over top.

Vorok
Silver Aria
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.06.03 01:08:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Vorok on 03/06/2010 01:23:50

I just want an opaque black bar on the top and bottom of my screen.
It was easier to see my modules and targets when I had it.
This can't possibly be "hard". It's just a pair of black bars. An opaque rectangle.

I really don't care how it's done. I don't care if it's just a black opaque window locked in place under the modules. Please, give us something.

I'm fortune to be only mildly colorblind. Most FPS games have overlays, and they don't bother me. But then again, EVE has a lot of information and control tucked in those overlays. I can see my modules and tell the difference between those various colors, but all of that stuff going on behind my modules forces me to focus harder and spin my camera.

I understand that people with normal vision might not understand this. Removing the widescreen option changed the EVE experience. EVE without the letterbox ("widescreen") ranges between uncomfortable and unplayable for some players. That's why it's so important.

Unrelated Sidenote
As a side note, remember way back when CCP changed the prerequisite list from red/green boxes to the current check/X? That certainly reduced squinting for some players. There are still things in EVE which could be made better by adding a second visual cue besides color, but that was a good change.

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.06.03 01:33:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Reiisha on 03/06/2010 01:35:26
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Because macros were using it. So it has to die. Good riddance. The percentage of legit players using widescreen: 00.0001%


edit: Never mind, misread. Forgot about the "widescreen" option. Still, as people have pointed out, a lot of them used it simply for visibility - I did aswell, though only when i still had a 5:4 monitor.

Erlork
Posted - 2010.06.03 15:56:00 - [136]
 

me too i want to know why the ui explodes sometimes and sends windows into random areas on the screen.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.06.03 17:19:00 - [137]
 

I used widescreen because I am colorblind. I didn't particularly like it and would appreciate a better solution... but ffs can you bring the new solution before taking away the old one?

-Liang

Caldrion Dosto
Excrutiating Dirge
Merciless.
Posted - 2010.06.03 17:49:00 - [138]
 

Quote:
Every time we develop something new we had to make sure that it also worked


I call bull**** on this segment of your statement Razz


You have been fine with a lot of things not working properly for years so why start caring now?


And tbh sound could go without anyone complaining, no one uses it anyway..

Kewso
Posted - 2010.06.03 18:06:00 - [139]
 

Just add option to turn the graphics off completely.
Keep the module, overview, chat UI's.

You can do all the same stuff without needing the graphics, then you can just play spreadsheet online.

you don't even need the graphics on to pvp. just click overview, orbit at xxx range, turn on modules, done.
when fleet battles are slideshows noone watches the graphics anyhow, it's a overview, text based battles, mud style :)

-grin-

:)

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2010.06.03 18:23:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
I used widescreen because I am colorblind. I didn't particularly like it and would appreciate a better solution... but ffs can you bring the new solution before taking away the old one?

-Liang


Think address book folders, no they can't.

Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Fleet of Doom
Posted - 2010.06.03 18:26:00 - [141]
 

I liked widescreen, as it made stuff across top and bottom of screen easier to see with a black background behind it. Loved it for pvp.

Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
Posted - 2010.06.03 19:12:00 - [142]
 

Yes, I have an old computer. So I used medium shader to compensate. They took it away.
I also used wide screen to ease the load on the machine. They took it away as well.
So you say, 'buy a new(er) computer'. True, true.

But that does not take away the fact that I have lousy eyesight and have trouble seeing subtle differences in contrast. And yes, my monitor is configured to the max, so there is nothing to be gained there...Smile

Putting parts of the UI on the black bars in wide screen mode helped a lot to make the game playable for me. As many people in this thread, for the same and various other reasons, have said before me

Barakkus
Posted - 2010.06.03 22:41:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
It was removed because it became very difficult to maintain due to architectural changes. Every time we develop something new we had to make sure that it also worked with this option and sometimes it required a lot of extra time spent to make it work. The costs started to outweigh the benefit.

We know it was used creatively(colourblind people) but it's good to know how many people used it and for what, what did it solve or fix or do for your. It could be that there is an easier way to achieve the same but without using the widescreen.

Except for macroers


I used it because you can't tell if your modules are active or not if you happen to be in an area that has a very brightly colored background (like an interstellar dust cloud type thing). Seriously, I could be perfectly happy about the widescreen going away if I could just see if my modules were active or not in some places.

Uthreignish
Minmatar
Stoned Temple Pilots
Posted - 2010.06.03 22:55:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
No, if we have a better picture of the reason it was used then we can go find a solution that is friendlier to maintain. Sadly our data doesnt show how people used it and why, we only get that information from players so it was diffecult to replace it if we didn't know what the issues were exactly that the widescreen option addressed.

Take the example of 'it gives me more space for the UI windows'. That is a UI problem and can be fixed in several ways, all ways that will be play a lot nicer with the rests of EVE's architecture.

We really appreciate the feedback and we'll keep an eye on the discussions about it.


Mainly because it made the UI more visible against a black background.

For example, the white flashing reticle around your active target can be very difficult to see in brighter systems, inside a nebula. Its much easier to determine whether some modules are activated or not on a black background.

Legs Mackenzie
Posted - 2010.06.04 08:38:00 - [145]
 

Was this really that hard to support, that's what I don't get. What has changed in this expansion that suddenly made this feature unworkable or too difficult to maintain? That's what I don't understand.

Nooma K'Larr
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.06.04 09:23:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Legs Mackenzie
Was this really that hard to support, that's what I don't get. What has changed in this expansion that suddenly made this feature unworkable or too difficult to maintain? That's what I don't understand.


I suspect it had to do with PI's planet view. The two features apparently did not get along.

Cat o'Ninetails
Caldari
Rancer Defence League
Posted - 2010.06.04 09:29:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Nooma K'Larr
I suspect it had to do with PI's planet view. The two features apparently did not get along.



if (planetview == 1) {
screen.mode = normal;
} else {
screen.mode = widescreen;
}


CCP should so hire me.

Nooma K'Larr
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.06.04 09:49:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails
Originally by: Nooma K'Larr
I suspect it had to do with PI's planet view. The two features apparently did not get along.



if (planetview == 1) {
screen.mode = normal;
} else {
screen.mode = widescreen;
}


CCP should so hire me.


Another option would have been to have planet view come up in a different container like the ship fittings do.

Dont forget to mention me when they hire you Cat.Wink

Cat o'Ninetails
Caldari
Rancer Defence League
Posted - 2010.06.04 11:19:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Nooma K'Larr
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails
Originally by: Nooma K'Larr
I suspect it had to do with PI's planet view. The two features apparently did not get along.



if (planetview == 1) {
screen.mode = normal;
} else {
screen.mode = widescreen;
}


CCP should so hire me.


Another option would have been to have planet view come up in a different container like the ship fittings do.

Dont forget to mention me when they hire you Cat.Wink


That could work. And I'll try and work the other thing into conversation... Somehow. Neutral

Darwpromtheus
Posted - 2010.06.07 14:19:00 - [150]
 

IMHO CCP needs to overhaul the entire UI to something that is readable [main thing in combat] and ´looks good, maybe even customizable. One of my main gripes with eve is that it´s that the UI already felt dated in the beginning, even to the point of feeling cartony compared to the massive space theatres and general spreadsheetness of the rest of the game.


A game that is built around a lot of information dripping by should take this into account, oh and maybe get with the times to compete with next gen mmorpgs. (lol)

While you´re at it reahaul the module activating sound as well. Custom sound for each race/ships/modules etc. Hell why not make the UI variable with the ship?

Make a real UI ship computer, **** away local chatbox update the shipscanner/directional to a real hud.


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