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blankseplocked So why did "widescreen" go the way of "medium shader" again?
 
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Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.05.29 11:43:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 29/05/2010 11:55:15
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
It was removed because it became very difficult to maintain due to architectural changes. Every time we develop something new we had to make sure that it also worked with this option and sometimes it required a lot of extra time spent to make it work. The costs started to outweigh the benefit.

We know it was used creatively(colourblind people) but it's good to know how many people used it and for what, what did it solve or fix or do for your. It could be that there is an easier way to achieve the same but without using the widescreen.

Except for macroers


Eris dear,

I am sorry but that does not make sense. EVE does not feature a full spec of usability design, alright fair enough, but these things should be fairly obvious. Never tamper with what serves as an element of redundancy for users with visual deficiencies.

I'm one of those, I might add. In my case you've basically condemned me to Planetary Interaction, which considering the extreme click & repetition action ratios is really not a fun experience for someone who is quite used to playing EVE for what it was designed to revolve around: blowing stuff up.

In practical terms, you can think of Heat & Module Status, the small icons attached to targeted icons, shield status, and so forth.

I bugreported the case, and was told in the bugreport that for feature requests I should try a section of the EVE forums. That was outright insulting, even more so then the venture of interfering with gameplay where simple priorities would have prevented this.


As for the macro angle, you made me curious, I enjoy my anti stress time suiciding exhumers so you actually made me go out looking and digging.

The time until the first downtime after the patch, the usual systems were remarkably empty. I was surprised, could CCP actually be right with this? Well, downtime came and passed, and all the little macros resurfaced. I was apalled, so I turned to Google.

Unsurprisingly, the macros have adapted. Far better then the people with visual deficiencies are able to adapt - for friggin obvious reasons. I mean, once again I should point out to something called the technology race. You come up with a better armour, your opponent invests in a better bullet. Rinse and repeat. It never ends.
Except for real people, for those it does end, since they cannot adapt their eyes or grow new ones. The macro argument is basically marketing bull****. Just think about it for a moment, and you will see it for what it is.


If I may highlight two things there.
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia

We know it was used creatively(colourblind people) but it's good to know how many people used it and for what, what did it solve or fix or do for your.


So you knew, and you think it might be a good idea to figure out, but made zero efforts whatsoever to find out. No survey, no inventory, no research, nothing.

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
It could be that there is an easier way to achieve the same but without using the widescreen.


Once again, I'm sorry, but that is simply pointing to the syndrome of Iterations. CCP does not DO iterations, it is neither part of planning, budgetting nor strategic vision. It is a concept which does not even fit in the management framework for the product. It's been 7 years, even new arrivals learn within a week or two that it is just marketing and nothing more.

I am very sorry dear, but here is the fundamental issue:
In order to deal with a single UI bug in Widescreen format, and in order to hamper macros from EVE for about 10 hours, you have removed most of the elements in the client which enabled people with visual deficiences to play EVE for PVP and PVE alike in a reasonably comfortable style.

I am sorry, but it's an insult to the user with visual deficiencies. I hope that is worth the cost, which is not a cost carried by your, but by us.

By all means, more parties sipping champaign for senior staff during patches like these.

Kyusoath Orillian
Haters Gonna Hate
Posted - 2010.05.29 11:50:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Kyusoath Orillian on 29/05/2010 11:52:45
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
It was removed because it became very difficult to maintain due to architectural changes. Every time we develop something new we had to make sure that it also worked with this option and sometimes it required a lot of extra time spent to make it work. The costs started to outweigh the benefit.

We know it was used creatively(colourblind people) but it's good to know how many people used it and for what, what did it solve or fix or do for your. It could be that there is an easier way to achieve the same but without using the widescreen.

Except for macroers


so you care about feedback AFTER you decided to remove widescreeen, medium shader, classic gfx client.

you pretend to care a lot when its too late to matter what we think.

what do you actually do at ccp ? or is it that your boyfriend works in there and he got you this 'job' ? do you make the tea ?
i'd rather hear nothing from the devs than this PR whitewash bull**** you drones keep dribbling.

and the **** about macros needing widescreen is classic ccp bull****. the work around is already out there anyone with google can see it for themselves.

Natalie Caladan
Posted - 2010.05.29 11:51:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Natalie Caladan on 29/05/2010 11:52:53
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Because macros were using it. So it has to die. Good riddance. The percentage of legit players using widescreen: 00.0001%

I used it too~! ugh

If we could get another background for at least the ship menu I'd be happy, with some very light background I can hardly see if my turrets are firing or not, which is quite user unfriendly.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.05.29 12:28:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
No, if we have a better picture of the reason it was used then we can go find a solution that is friendlier to maintain. Sadly our data doesnt show how people used it and why, we only get that information from players so it was diffecult to replace it if we didn't know what the issues were exactly that the widescreen option addressed.


Come on. You can actually sit there and say with a straight face that NO ONE responsible for making decisions about the removal of this feature had a clue about the impact on accessibility!? This ain't rocket science...we're talking modern software design practices here. Did it never occur to CCP to perhaps conduct a little discussion in the forums before brute-force changing the game or making it practically unplayable for many with visual limitations?

Who knows how the widescreen was coded. But if you really care about your users with visual limitations--and through association those of us who enjoy playing with them--find an alternative. An optional layer off by default but that they can enable which provides a black bar top and bottom of customizable width or something simple like that.

You're never going to win the race against macroers, but every user you smack in the face with heavy-handed, insensitive, stupid removal of features with no notice is one more person whose subscription fees you're likely to lose forever. I don't think CCP can afford that kind of thinking anymore.


Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.05.29 12:33:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
No, if we have a better picture of the reason it was used then we can go find a solution that is friendlier to maintain. Sadly our data doesnt show how people used it and why, we only get that information from players so it was diffecult to replace it if we didn't know what the issues were exactly that the widescreen option addressed.



One of the prime rules of UI & Usability design is that if you cannot quantify the ratio of users affected by UI elements or visual deficiences you provide for elements of redundancy (traditionally colour controls and contrast elements) in order to not get lost in a downhill slope of affecting user experiences.

So yes, you cannot reach all users in order to undertake full inventories or engage in research. That is why such rules exist in the first place. You do not hamper those elements of design which provide elements of redundancy.

Please don't take it the wrong way dear, but we are not data. Customers are people. Those macros aren't, but they can adapt.

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.05.29 12:38:00 - [36]
 

Like any suggestion about the UI will ever (a) make it to CCP (b) get any attention from CCP, or (c) actually get implemented.

Think of this topic as a write-only document. No ****er is gonna actually read it.

iP0D
Posted - 2010.05.29 12:46:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Mynxee

I don't think CCP can afford that kind of thinking anymore.



You mean CCP cannot afford applying Agile to management anymore ...

Marko Riva
Posted - 2010.05.29 12:57:00 - [38]
 

Personally I don't care either way as I don't use the feature but Virt successfully cornered CCP here, simply because he's right and makes perfect sense.

For some reason there's a whole lot of things that get changed for reasons us players don't see and possibly get negatively affected by yet other (UI) issues we DO see and very much would like to see adressed never happen.

It's like CCP plays a completely different EVE than their customers.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2010.05.29 13:05:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Mr Kidd on 29/05/2010 13:06:56
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
It was removed because it became very difficult

You're joking right?

Quote:

No, if we have a better picture of the reason it was used then we can go find a solution that is friendlier to maintain. We really appreciate the feedback and we'll keep an eye on the discussions about it.


Discussion? What discussion? I don't remember a discussions about it. I can't say for sure that it was in the patch notes as I only read them a couple of times, but was it? Cuz I don't remember seeing it.

Why don't you stop patronizing us and just tell it like it is, huh?

Quote:
Take the example of 'it gives me more space for the UI windows'. That is a UI problem and can be fixed in several ways, all ways that will be play a lot nicer with the rests of EVE's architecture.


Another joke perhaps? You haven't substantially renovated the UI in what? Since the beginning? People have been crying for more screen space for what? Since the beginning?

I use a 22" CRT 4:3 monitor. I use it because I prefer 4:3 for most things computers and I picked it up on craigslist for $15 ;) And an added bonus is it heats my entire home through the winter. Out of that 22" screen I have about a 4"x4" piece of screen real estate with which to look at your pretty game unfettered.

The widescreen feature actually gave me the appearance of a widescreen in that context, letterbox.....oh how I love thee.

CCP, I hadn't really notice the widescreen being gone until this thread. That's because I played the game for one or two days and discovered you replaced 80% of my ingame income with metal scrap and I hadn't played since. Thank you SO much CCP for this additional value-removed feature.

Why don't you stop calling us customers or a community and just call us your paychecks or cash cows or a bunch of dumb f**ks? You obviously don't give a rat's ass. You've made paupers out of some of us and friggin gazillionaires out billionaires. Thank you thank you thank you CCP. This widescreen removal is just the icing on the cake. I'm so done with this game.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.05.29 13:08:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
I'm so done with this game.
Stuffs. Gimme.

Doublewhopper
Posted - 2010.05.29 13:12:00 - [41]
 

I also used the widescreen option to have a more aesthetic look of eve.

It nicely seperated part of the UI like locked targets and the command hud from the ingame graphics. This made it easier to spot things and gave better control of the situation.

So, since we lost the classic client, the medium shaders and now widescreen, and have introduced evegate, why is there still no client with lowlevel vector graphics?

It might even improve the lag in the fleetbattles if you could turn it down to wireframe graphics.

Ny'Tesh Auler
Posted - 2010.05.29 13:25:00 - [42]
 

I am color blind, so thank you for removing something that made me understand the game better because i get confused as hell now.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.05.29 13:29:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Doublewhopper
So, since we lost the classic client, the medium shaders and now widescreen, and have introduced evegate, why is there still no client with lowlevel vector graphics?

It might even improve the lag in the fleetbattles if you could turn it down to wireframe graphics.
Because it wouldn't affect lag in the slightest.

TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.05.29 13:35:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Doublewhopper
I also used the widescreen option to have a more aesthetic look of eve.

It nicely seperated part of the UI like locked targets and the command hud from the ingame graphics. This made it easier to spot things and gave better control of the situation.

For these same aesthetic and usability reasons I also ran in "widescreen" mode (should probably have been called "letterbox").


It is pretty sad that something was dropped, initially without any mention whatsoever in the patch notes, under the excuse of "macroers were abusing it". Well frankly macroers are abusing many other things in the client/network already but at some point you have to ask how much of an impact changes will have on the rest of the players...


I will also point out that the original reason given for its removal was that there was an issue with the new cameras. I can believe that as being the main issue because of something I noticed on sisi a few weeks ago.

Fullscreen Shot | Widescreen Shot

I prefer a black background behind the HUD (and also the locked targets but for me that is less of an issue) because it makes it far easier to tell when modules such as cloaks are running. Especially with the new brighter stars and some systems with greenish nebula.


I look forward to discussing this further.

Lost Wander
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2010.05.29 13:42:00 - [45]
 

I am/was an other fan of the widescreen feature since I thought it made eve look 'nicer' and the letterbox aspect of it. E.g. Like a movie.

CCP really needs to work on documentation of their changes and put them in the patch notes.

Seriously. You messed up for not communicating the change.

Man up and take ownership of your mistake in communication.

Just because you don't think it is important your paying customers may disagree.


Ti'anla
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.05.29 14:38:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Ti''anla on 29/05/2010 14:48:18
Originally by: TeaDaze
Fullscreen Shot | Widescreen Shot


That.. good lord, that perspective is horrible, how could you stand to play like that? How did it even end up squished vertically instead of horizontally? My head hurts, I.. ew x.X Brown note screenshot is bleh.

TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.05.29 15:03:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: TeaDaze on 29/05/2010 15:05:47
Originally by: Ti'anla
Edited by: Ti''anla on 29/05/2010 14:48:18
Originally by: TeaDaze
Fullscreen Shot | Widescreen Shot


That.. good lord, that perspective is horrible, how could you stand to play like that? How did it even end up squished vertically instead of horizontally? My head hurts, I.. ew x.X Brown note screenshot is bleh.

You miss the point. This is not what widescreen (or letterbox) mode looked like on TQ. These shots were from the test server shortly after Tyrannis was made available for testing.

My point was that rather than the macroer justification for the removal of widescreen mode (which may still be a factor) it seems it was bugged and they decided to drop the feature rather than fix it...

nailtrix
Posted - 2010.05.29 15:10:00 - [48]
 

Whether it is widescreen revamp or other name... The UI needs some serious help. A lot of people are able to kick resolutions up to 1980x1200 now and aside from the chat box, you need magnifying glasses to view most if not all the other windows in EvE, thus making it extremely difficult to view. How do they expect people to view the overview when it is just 1cm in size.....? Am hoping there is a fix for this I do not know about and that I can resize the text in overview and other areas of the game besides the chat window.

C Black
Posted - 2010.05.29 15:12:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Rouge Huntress
The Widescreen option was very useful to me to see at a glance what the status of my modules was.
There are quite a few missions out there that have a very bright surrounding, which eclipse the module backlighting. Thus making it a bit difficult to see their status at any given point.

And as for the top part, the locked targets are on top of the black part making them more legible.


SO true,

C Black

Seismic Stan
Greenbeard's Freebooters
Split Infinity.
Posted - 2010.05.29 15:46:00 - [50]
 

Perhaps a simple fix would be to provide customisable drop-shadows for UI items. That would return the functionality that helped those with sight-problems.

iP0D
Posted - 2010.05.29 16:47:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Seismic Stan
Perhaps a simple fix would be to provide customisable drop-shadows for UI items. That would return the functionality that helped those with sight-problems.


Or give the UI element containers a backdrop, regardless of whether the user has control over which colour to use. Still wouldn't help with using the widescreen function as a way to improve framerates on mac clients however.

Jhared Skyfire
Gallente
The Environmental Management Team
Posted - 2010.05.29 17:20:00 - [52]
 

Another option - let players choose a different color scheme for module activation, ie instead of green/red, how about blue/yellow for the red/green colorblind folks. I know of a few colorblind people who play, and something this simple should be easy to code if activation status uses a simple flag.

Also, the ability to resize/scale ui elements would be helpful for those with visual impairments. On large screen, being able to scale the central module/ship status display for shields remaining, gun activation etc to twice the base size would indeed help people with poor vision.

The option of reducing fullscreen resolution (1280x800 on a 1920x1200 screen) is not an acceptable alternative

Mahai Ano
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.05.29 18:13:00 - [53]
 

So yet again, "Why fix what ain't broken" became "Why fix what is broken" and CCP removet it instead.

Mendicarp
Caldari
The Collective
Posted - 2010.05.29 18:14:00 - [54]
 

yet another THIS SUXS move by ccp, I suggest you pull ur thumbs outta ur *******s and reinstate the option, or maybe you finally showing ur true colours in as much as you spend an inordinate amount of time pontificating about how you interact with the userbase so on and so forth blah blah blah blah blah blah............................... and you pull a stunt like this with absolutely **** all interaction......nice move. it just says out loud to ur customers F**k you we dont give a **** about ya, just keep sending us your money you saps!

Terrax Norik
Posted - 2010.05.29 18:19:00 - [55]
 

And people wonder why Devs don't post more often on the forums. Rolling Eyes


Lost Hamster
Hamster Holding Corp
Posted - 2010.05.29 18:20:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Daan Sai
I used it, mostly so that the HUD and modules had a uniformly dark background - the green glows and white clocks get lost on bright backgrounds. Also text for the system name etc were easier to read.


Exactly why I used it as well. For PvP it was much more useful to have it in black background.

And as someone already mentioned, fighting macros whit this was not successful, they have already adopted. And people with vision problem can NOT adopt.

I think it would be the time to do some changes. Like different font, so the 0, 8, 9 would be easier to see. Change the color of module activation, overheat etc.

MadMuppet
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.05.29 18:20:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: MadMuppet on 29/05/2010 18:21:13
Since I'm guessing that widescreen is dead forever, can I make a couple recommendations to a future improvement to the game ? (any of these would help)

-Allow for a background on targets and slots so that there can be contrast (ie a local box around the icon spread out maybe 5 pixels around the object)

-Allow for the targets and high/med/low slot icons to 'always be on top' so I can stick my cargo window under them so I can see them clearly.

-Add a digital counter to the middle of the high/med/low slots that displays a numerical percentage of the timing ring (much like we already have for shields, armor, and hull)

-Allow for the reduction in brightness of stellar objects (deadspace gass clouds for example)so that we can see what we are doing.

Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io
Posted - 2010.05.29 18:40:00 - [58]
 

I cant see the purpose of the black "widescreen" borders besides for macroers. There is not a single thing etc you cant do or do better without. Well besides macroing with pixel colour detection.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2010.05.29 19:20:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 29/05/2010 19:22:56

All these problems could be solved tomorrow by opening the UI to customization. But of course, that will never happen.


edit:
Quote:
I cant see the purpose of the black "widescreen" borders besides for macroers. There is not a single thing etc you cant do or do better without. Well besides macroing with pixel colour detection.


Way to not read a single post in the thread before throwing in your (worthless) opinion. A lot of people have visual issues - a lot of people have need for assistance with "pixel colour detection."

Joe Astor
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2010.05.29 19:29:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
No, if we have a better picture of the reason it was used then we can go find a solution that is friendlier to maintain. Sadly our data doesnt show how people used it and why, we only get that information from players so it was diffecult to replace it if we didn't know what the issues were exactly that the widescreen option addressed.

Take the example of 'it gives me more space for the UI windows'. That is a UI problem and can be fixed in several ways, all ways that will be play a lot nicer with the rests of EVE's architecture.

We really appreciate the feedback and we'll keep an eye on the discussions about it.


I used it in missions frequently.
When you are in a blinding cloud and all you can see is white light all around you, you couldn't see what modules you had on or off. Widescreen cropped the screen nicely so that you could see without any hassle.

Perhaps CCP could make an option to have a black background behind the modules, for such situations? Smile


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