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Kenreikko Valitonen
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2010.05.26 09:23:00 - [1]
 

Maut was a debacle.

Acting on presumably solid intelligence that the Sansha (quiet now for several days) would launch an attack on this star system, the Synenose Accord-sponsored Operation Bad Moon led a coalition fleet of over 225 capsuleer pilots into the system just after 0100EVT 25.05YC112.

I was part of this fleet. The lost citizens of Kaaptunen, Urlen, Tama, Umokka, Kamio, Otsasai, Halamia, Outuni, Uitra, Mara, and dozens of other worlds across the cluster cried out to my sense of duty and I went. I joined this endeavor. I sought saaja in their name and on behalf of so many millions who cannot rise up as we can and fight.

On the other side of the stargate in the Maut system our fleet did not find a vast Sansha strike force. Sansha agents were in the system--somewhere--but the battlefield to which this volunteer fleet was led was filled with capsuleer-piloted capital ships flagged to nullsec alliances. Large-scale ship-to-ship combat ensued both among these capital fleets and with our own ships, during which Bad Moon commanders called for our fleet to target and fire upon elements of the nullsec forces.

During this fight, I picked up data traffic suggesting some level of electronic attack and defense was taking place between the Nation sympathizers in the system and (at least) a few of the Bad Moon pilots who specialize in cyberwar. If anything, that was the real battle and the only battle with any honor in it.

I am able to say that my crew disembarked tonight in Sankkasen and I will authorize payment of bonuses proportionate to the hazards endured during this operation. Several thousand stiff, vacuum-exposed corpses orbiting Maut VI will attest that many of our fleet's captains cannot say the same. In fact, some of those captains lost a life of their own to outlaw guns.

I can understand acting on false intelligence when one is unaware of the trap. That is how traps work. Charging headlong into the trap once it is made visible is simply stupid. The Nation was our target, not those barons of the outlaw regions. The fleet should have been ordered to disengage and pursue the Sansha. Instead, our fleet gladly joined the nullsec forces in an orgy of self-destruction.

Consequently my cooperation with the Synenose Accord and its affiliates in this matter is over. I will not fly under their leadership again. Those captains who succeeded in locating and downing the Sansha transport ship in Maut during this engagement have my appreciation. You may well have saved this mess from becoming a complete failure. The effort to resist, find, and finish the Nation will continue.

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2010.05.26 09:34:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Myxx on 26/05/2010 09:39:38
As one of the people who has seen and been privy to most of the intelligence provided to us, I can honestly say none of us saw any sort of trap coming. At all. Right up to the last second, it was, honest to god, trying to figure out what was going on and getting people in place.

I apologise if you feel we've done badly, I wasnt present because I very simply wasn't able to be there for other reasons unrelated. I'll personally look into the accusations of a trap and how we got led into one. This will be delt with, swiftly. Obviously, there was an error in communications.

If, like you suggest - and, its sort of apparent from what ive read, report wise, that you may be right - that we got had and walked into a trap, I'm going to endeavor to make sure it doesn't happen again.

ECHAeries
True Progression
Posted - 2010.05.26 09:50:00 - [3]
 

Synenose Accord forces made a vital mistake - Operation Bad Moon had a flaw.
There was a new element amongst you trying to force Nation's demise from within.
You assumed "Nation is unity." was merely propaganda, you assumed wrong.

Treachery within Nation is bound to fail.
It requires an ability to go two ways and within a True unity that one entity willing to oppose the rest is never concealed.
A mole is an illusion - capsuleers are futile to attempt.
This error backfiring sent a sizeable fleet marching willingly into its own downfall to a fate sealed by their own deception.

It is the fate of those not free, the fate of those opposing Nation.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.26 09:57:00 - [4]
 

I lost a Raven last night. the FSS Tuonela was destroyed with all hands - its destruction was too swift for any of them to make it off the ship. It was torn apart by a single volley of fire while my tactical sensors were still struggling to cope with the mess of ships and drones I'd just warped to. I only realised something was wrong when I read the DED's ship loss debriefing and saw the names "Morsus Mihi", "Wildly Inappropriate" and "Mostly Harmless".

Such a death isn't futile - those men and women were all killed in the line of executing a noble duty. But it is frustrating and painful for me as their commander to know that they didn't even die in the right battle.

Heartstone
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.05.26 10:16:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: ECHAeries
Synenose Accord forces made a vital mistake - Operation Bad Moon had a flaw.
There was a new element amongst you trying to force Nation's demise from within.
You assumed "Nation is unity." was merely propaganda, you assumed wrong.

Treachery within Nation is bound to fail.
It requires an ability to go two ways and within a True unity that one entity willing to oppose the rest is never concealed.
A mole is an illusion - capsuleers are futile to attempt.



This has been raised several times and each time was seemingly ignored. How can one have a mole within an entity where free will is suppressed by technology? Nation is not like other enemies most of us have faced; even the truly fanatical have a degree of human free will. Nation is not human. Nation is the dark-side of pure trans-humanism. Nation is a true hive-mind. No talking, no negotiation. Live or Die. Kill or be killed. Old axioms but more true now than ever before.

Nation will fall.

Heartstone

Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari
Project Daedalid
Posted - 2010.05.26 10:26:00 - [6]
 

Now you have seen True Power. You have seen your so-called strengths and perceptions turned against you. Look at Nation reborn. Look at the truth. All that is left is for you to see.

Nakatre Read
Caldari
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2010.05.26 10:28:00 - [7]
 

Oh, the irony.

TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.05.26 11:00:00 - [8]
 

Welcome to the north YARRRR!!

Elendar
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.05.26 11:08:00 - [9]
 

I believe the Nation will be happy with the results of the first strike of our new contract

Jandice Ymladris
Caldari
dark influence
Posted - 2010.05.26 11:11:00 - [10]
 

What happened at Maut was indeed a trap, but nobody saw it till the final moments. But whoever set up this false intel could not have foreseen the massive deployment of capsuleer forces. A critical mistake was made however when we did not disengange when no True Nation forces where spotted.

Both sides got heavely smacked around by these two military Behemoths, Pandemonic Legion and Morsus Mihi, two entities that usually keep their wars out in lawless space. It was clear we are no match for those.

Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2010.05.26 12:21:00 - [11]
 

I am indeed sorry for all of your losses. You were all very brave to go there and put your lives on the line.

Had the Gallente Navy been willing, Amarr forces would have responded. But since there is that technical state of war we couldn’t muster a quarter of what we had to support you. We did have troops standing by, and even some organizations that weren’t involved offered ships if they were needed.

Since we had so much time to get ready for this, why didn’t the Gallente government put ships there too? Because to them, we were their weapons and shields. That too, is a shame.

It was a debacle too, because while many of you were brave in going, few of you have the needed military training and as I predicted, we fielded an angry mob, not an armada.

Not a trap? Laughable. I knew hours before that it was a trap and made my case to a high-level Gallente Capsuleer to bring to the attention of General Sotor. You had people on unsecured channels broadcasting the time and the place and what they were going to bring and how they were going to outfit it. You have people who were known security leaks running amok on the supposedly secure channels dong the exact same thing.

Not a trap? Small children on Palas knew it was a trap. But again, you were all brave and I am proud of the people who took a stand against Chaos despite my warnings.

Maybe next time you will learn that when an Amarrian says he knows what he’s talking about it’s because he does, not because he’s an “arrogant Amarrian.”

It would be nice if we see this kind of camaraderie devotion to the cause of peace now aimed at some of the other terror organizations that plague us. I expect now we’ll all be going back to our usual wars and piracy though.

That is a shame.

I would like to give heartfelt thanks on behalf of the citizens of Khanid and Amarr for everyone’s help. Your names will be in the prayers of many. Masses will be offered.

Now…the future…

mgc1
Posted - 2010.05.26 12:39:00 - [12]
 

to think i almost left that operation before this all happened..
to think it was my efforts that ensured not dozens but 100's of brave capsuleers fought along side us..
to think i had warned command not to engage if there was no sansha pressence..

i am deeply ashamed..
i have lost trust in everybody..
julius and blade, i blame u above all for this trap..

why doesnt any1 use common sense anymore.. it used to work so well..

Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari
Project Daedalid
Posted - 2010.05.26 12:41:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: mgc1
why doesnt any1 use common sense anymore.. it used to work so well..

Fear.

Aynen
Posted - 2010.05.26 12:44:00 - [14]
 

This is what Nation understands about us, that most of us don't even want to understand. We don't listen to common sense because we get swept up. In anger, glee, enthousiasm, honor, revenge, delisions of grandure, false senses of security. We are immortal pod pilots, and most of us feel that because we CAN do everything, we also should.
We should indeed have not engaged in battle, we should have waited for Nation to show up, but we are human beings, and immortal ones at that. It is our nature to be this way.

mgc1
Posted - 2010.05.26 12:45:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: mgc1 on 26/05/2010 12:48:24
fear?
fear of getting podded in low sec?
then why did we attack?

fear of losing a ship and crew?
then why did 250 pilots volunteer knowing full well the parameters of the battle?

fear?
fear has nothing to do wih it..
this was pure stupidity..

aynen it is not our nature to be stupid, or nature would have written us off..
there r other factors involved here, factors u should have seen before sending us into a pirate brawl..
there were no sansha!

Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari
Project Daedalid
Posted - 2010.05.26 12:54:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: mgc1
Edited by: mgc1 on 26/05/2010 12:48:24
fear?
fear of getting podded in low sec?
then why did we attack?

fear of losing a ship and crew?
then why did 250 pilots volunteer knowing full well the parameters of the battle?

fear?
fear has nothing to do wih it..
this was pure stupidity..

aynen it is not our nature to be stupid, or nature would have written us off..
there r other factors involved here, factors u should have seen before sending us into a pirate brawl..
there were no sansha!

Fear of what could have happened had they not attacked. Fear of loss, of being wrong. Fear of being seen as a coward.

There was but one Sansha there. There has always been but one Sansha there. He sees all.

He was laughing at you.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2010.05.26 12:58:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Nakatre Read
Oh, the irony.


Yes

So many capsuleers, unwilling to become a mindless drone of the Nation, instead became a mindless drone of Soter, who was seemingly so fond of his new-found army that he didn't see the bait staring him in the face.

mgc1
Posted - 2010.05.26 12:59:00 - [18]
 

niki, i fear ur wrong..
and i bet he was laughing.. so would i, would i have been on the other side..

Julianus Soter
Gallente
Moira.
Posted - 2010.05.26 13:07:00 - [19]
 

Rote Kapelle forces marshalled at 0000 hours and deployed to Maut via Osmeden at 0045. We entered the system with roughly twenty pilots arrived on the scene and began destroying Sansha's Nation supporters. All Sansha Nation supporters were killed in the ensuing combat.

Let's say that we "knew something was wrong" when Ghost Hunter provided cyno for the Pandemic Legion capital ship bridge into the system. Ironically, they were also the ones that would almost kill ECH Aeries' Nyx, who barely warped out of combat.

Nation supporters state this was a loss. Most of our ship losses were no more significant than any other of our battles against nation the past two weeks. Rote Kapelle personally suffered a single loss in the fleet, and disengaged from PL Capital Fleet to station.

If this is the best Nation has to offer, well, I don't think we have much to fear. Their "greatest moment" is summoning a 0.0 alliance pile-on that is too unwieldy to even trap plated battleships? *chuckles*

To all pilots that acted as part of the Maut defense effort, I truely am sorry for any losses you may have suffered. Hopefully, because of the nature of the situation and the location of the engagement, most knew what they were getting into.

Rote Kapelle stands resolute, however, in the face of any further action from Nation. We will watch, and be ready for when they return.

Lillith Blackheart
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2010.05.26 13:10:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Lillith Blackheart on 26/05/2010 13:14:10
Perhaps I should shed some light -- though not much.

To field your questions initially - Yes, we knew what you were bringing, the more you brought the better, although I must admit I was likely as startled as the rest of you that the Legion decided to show up and play some games. The rest, however, went as planned, in fact I would suggest the Legion's arrival made it go better than planned.

Next, the whole "debacle," as you apparently wish to call it, was due to the fact that we do not take kindly to spies. As you may note, the shooting commenced after our forces waited for your entire army to arrive so that you could sit and watch while we made an example of the silly fool that tried to infiltrate our sanctum and learn Master Kuvakei's secrets.

May this be a lesson.

Moving on: Mr. Heartstone, it has been "seemingly ignored" because there are numerous places that it has been refuted as the logical fallacy it is. Please move on to something new, yes?

Yes, Elendar, though I must admit your presence was unexpected, we are impressed by the results.

Do continue on, please, I will be here to field questions.

Edit: Grr. Linkage fail resolved


Yoshitaka Moromuo
Distant Light Galactic
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2010.05.26 13:11:00 - [21]
 

mgc1,

I've been cooperating with Julianus Soter for nearly the full duration of the events thus far, and I can say with almost absolute certainty that none of us expected Maut to end up how it did. We knew the potential risk, and did not expect the risk to reach towards the extreme end of the spectrum. We knew that it was a low-security system...

... and still we volunteered. To be honest, even after Maut, I still trust Soter and the others whom I have been cooperating with. And, to be honest, tossing around blame not even twenty-four hours after the mentioned battle is simply ridiculous.

Julianus Soter
Gallente
Moira.
Posted - 2010.05.26 13:20:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Yo****aka Moromuo

... and still we volunteered. To be honest, even after Maut, I still trust Soter and the others whom I have been cooperating with.


Thank you, Yoshi. I don't take lightly the trust people have placed in me. And it is my hope in the future days I'll be able to earn back any trust that has been lost.

Intelligence, corroberating information, patterns, and the "what if" of not taking the chance and allowing an unprecedented atrocity to occur, are things that we cannot simply let slide by. Too many times has intel proven correct, and hesitation, costly. Capsuleers are unique in the fact that any losses that we may suffer, we can quickly recover from. We cannot die, and we often have spare ships and supplies to rebuild from most defeats.

Andreus LeHane
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2010.05.26 13:30:00 - [23]
 

So the most the Sansha could accomplish was to get 0.0 alliances to shoot at something?

Something that they do every day?

You really have fallen far.

Lillith Blackheart
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2010.05.26 13:30:00 - [24]
 

"General" Soter, let me take a moment to address you directly -- as little as I bother to do so.

To you I want to express Nations thanks.

Thank you, Soter, for being the gullible little fool you are. Thank you for putting your own foolish pride above the goals of your organization. Thank you for wanting so much to be the "savior of mankind" and go down in history that you enabled our public hanging to go down in such a smashing manner.

Please, continue on. We speak of Unity, and none of you understand what that means. You assume it means we all shove metal in our heads and become unwilling slaves to Master Kuvakei. You assume that it means we give our individuality up in order to achieve some sort of perfection.

You are wrong.

Unity means that all are equal. Unity means that we fight together for the cause. Unity means that we do not put our own egos and pride above accomplishing our plans.

Unity is our strength.

Unity is why we will continue to defeat you, despite the odds.

mgc1
Posted - 2010.05.26 13:46:00 - [25]
 

yoshi

we indeed knew the risks
we planned accordingly
we arived on the field
command tossed all our plans out of the airlock
we engaged pirates!

can u spot the error?

((ps, ccp, it was a severe lagfest, my drones were "occupied", all modules froze up and i got dc'd.. fun battle?))

Mouse Nell
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.26 13:50:00 - [26]
 

Feh. I'd love to say I predicted this would happen, but thats not entirely fair. I mean, when you run virtual simulations of possible interaction outcomes to the Nth degree magnitude, just about everything that COULD happen can be predicted. For my part in this, I do apologize. I was one of the lead scouts, and I didn't make it clear enough that a wormhole incursion was not happening. I believe it may have been the report of dozen+ carriers dropping in that may have spurred the fleet into action, but my exact words, i believe were "Oh f***. The carriers on my scanner just went from countable to uncountable. 15 at least. No wormholes yet" though in a 200+ man fleet, these words can be lost. This was compromised by irregulars who decided to jump the gun without having any idea of what exactly was going on, and what was expected of them. I don't know how many times I heard basic overview training and chain of command explained. It should only have to happen once. When a call to CLEAR COMMs comes through, noone wants to hear about how your pod's view screen's graphics card isn't working right, and hasn't for a while, and an interesting story about the last time it was a problem. Clear comms means noone talks but the people giving orders, and potentially the scouts to relay key information. In all previous operations I've been part of, such advanced information was determined in advance in which form it should come, voice or text. I have never been more glad than today that part of my leadership training included a section on how to lead people into battle, as well as how to follow orders. Those who may have skimmed that portion at the University may wish to go back and review. Pay special attention to the sections entitled "Standing orders" and proper "zone infiltration" tactics.

The Fleet itself was composed of people who had planned ahead, and expected to work together, as well as a huge number of irregulars. As "Admiral" Soter said, the source was trusted. He said it time and again. And when questioned about it harshly, many of his loyalest supporters said that time and again his intel was right. That Sansha's Nation was planning a huge incursion. 12 carriers and a titan. Sansha himself would be there. He put his neck out, then bailed out when the axe came down, leaving 200+ pilots, 20,000+ marines and untold numbers of ship crews to twist in the solar wind. And to mirror the failings in operational intelligence, there were certain... operational inconsistencies from Key Operation Bad Moon personnel. Pilots who Should Have Known what was happening before hand, but decided to make themselves purposefully dense to obtain more "glory and honor" from being the one to take down Sansha, who according to intel, was supposed to be there. I've said it many times before to those involved various operations I've had the privilege to be associated with, that Secrecy is NOT Security. Keeping people who should know whats going on while leaking key information to the enemy is just terrible spycraft. Add to this the apparent defection, double agency and true defection of a "trusted source" who was known to both have Slaveware in his head, and whose ship of choice was a Nightmare... only one thing can be said.

Charlie came to Maut to do the Foxtrot, and everyone was all too eager to dance.

Yoshitaka Moromuo
Distant Light Galactic
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2010.05.26 13:53:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Yo****aka Moromuo on 26/05/2010 13:56:52
No, I don't believe it was Command that tossed plans out the window; at least, I certainly cannot confirm that they did. If such did indeed happen (i.e. someone outside of the fleet that I was in made such a call), then I would likely have seen it in one of they multitude of comms channels that I have active at any given time. For that matter, they are no more a "Command" than you or anyone else involved in Operation: BAD MOON was.

Also, I seem to recall a fleet actually holding position just inside Maut while the situation was being evaluated. Nobody outright tossed plans out.

Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2010.05.26 13:54:00 - [28]
 

It sounds like it went pretty much as we expected.

Can someone provide a more detailed after-action report?

This is one of those engagements that military stratagists and armchair quarterbacks will study for some time to come.


ECHAeries
True Progression
Posted - 2010.05.26 13:58:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Julianus Soter
Let's say that we "knew something was wrong" when Ghost Hunter provided cyno for the Pandemic Legion capital ship bridge into the system.


It's funny how even after this event there are remarkably few aspects that you truly understand.
If you wish to know the truth in can be found in several places across Galnet, including "EVE General Discussion" on these boards and on the EVE-Inspiry boards.
You have your involved parties severely mixed up and also missed completely which cyno was whose and by whom it was lit.
All this information is available to you and if you wish I will recoop it for you personally in-game later, but from what you've been posting in different places so far it's not hard to tell you don't see what really happened.

Also if you had any idea about what was going to happen I'm inclined to believe many will not agree with you that you let slip enough hints as to the fate that was awaiting them.

Julianus Soter
Gallente
Moira.
Posted - 2010.05.26 15:03:00 - [30]
 

I was speaking from personal observation, pilot. The widow had a cyno nearby, and at the time, pilots in my fleet stated that the widow had deployed a cyno. No doubt PL had bridged in to kill the ship specifically, however, along with your Nyx. A shame about that. I saw a phobos closing range with you, but as always with Major Powers, their lack of forsight kept them from bumping your ship out of warp alignment.

I was not in command of any Coalition, Synenose Accord, or other forces at the scene of the battle. Anyone other than Rote Kapelle forces and Moira. Vanguard, who participated in the fight, was being commanded by Operation "Bad moon", an organization I have no connection to whatsoever. Their fleet command is responsible for all tactical decisions made at the scene of the battle at planet six.

My intel was from Mr. Blade, the Chimera pilot the Sansha were attempting to kill. They had devised the operation to apparently get him out into the open for slaughter, as they apparently knew he was a double agent.

The ironic thing? Had I known that this source had already been compromised, Rote Kapelle would have arrived to participate in the destruction of Sansha Nation supporters and GCC'ed territorial alliances, regardless. Might have even configured the fleet to a nice long range sniper group to pick apart the enemy at will.

I would have notified all intel channels regarding the situation. And as always, it is independent pilot discretion to participate in a large-scale combat operation in lowsec. A great number probably would have still turned out to get on a killmail of Ghost Hunter's, anyway.

The intel I had received was trusted, which is why I put my pilots and crew in harms way, however. The intel turned out to be a misinformation campaign that had fooled the source and resulted in the destruction of his Chimera. The situation resultant from it is no different from any number of nullsec battles and combat situations. I only regret that some pilots may have felt that were somehow betrayed by leadership or command when this is categorically not the case.


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