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blankseplocked [Proposal] Learning skills solution
 
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Turdilious
Posted - 2010.06.24 22:00:00 - [211]
 

IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. CCP were considering it but now consider it impossible due to the fact most people want to keep them.

Vyusoath Orillian
Posted - 2010.06.24 22:27:00 - [212]
 

i support this purely because learning skills are pointless and act as a time sink.

Smurphy1
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.06.24 23:32:00 - [213]
 

I think that learning skills should be removed as well but with a few differences from the OP. Instead of just a permanent +10 and 10% to all attributes it should be a +8/+9 that is redistributable through remaps.

How it would work is all players would be given a boost to there attributes and the next time they remap their attributes those new point would be redistributable. This would mean that the max attribute allowed when remapping would have to be raised so that final attribute levels are the same as now.

Currently the max any character can get is 33 (15 base + 10 skills + 5 implant + 10%) on a primary attribute and 24.4(9 base + 10 skills + 5 implant + 10%) on a secondary. My idea is to change the max allowed level of one attribute to be 28 (28 + 5 implant = 33) and the max for the rest be 20 (20 + 5 implant = 25).

This would result in the being able to maintain the highest sp gain currently available while also allowing for remapping to target more than one skill group. Even with adding +8 to all attributes and pushing two to the max (28 and 20) there would still be 16 points left over to distribute. This means you could have (assuming all +5 implants) 33 in one attribute, 25 in two others and the last two have 6 and 5.

Also to all the people who say that nobody is forced to train learning skills and all those arguments: IT DOESN'T MATTER! The simple fact is that a large enough percentage of newer players are not staying with Eve because of things like learning skills.

They are also unnecessary. Skills are a secondary effect for the game, they add to a players ability to play the game to their liking by increasing their ability to make things explode/build things/mine things etc. Learning skills are a tertiary effect, they increase a players ability to increase their ability to play the game to their liking. They are not necessary to play the game so why have them?

Cypreion
Posted - 2010.06.24 23:49:00 - [214]
 

Do not support.

Training them is not that big of a deal and I for one did not wait to have them trained to have fun.

Cypress Solari
Posted - 2010.06.24 23:51:00 - [215]
 

DO NOT SUPPORT!!

I LOVE THE LEARNING SKILLS.

ALWAYS REMEMBER: CAPS LOCK IS THE CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.06.25 00:54:00 - [216]
 

No not supported.

I canít find the source but the last time CCP said they were interested in removing learning skills it was a number of years ago. Sometime after another CCP representative said it was unlikely they would ever do so. Typically it is people who have a reason to complain who will do so on these forums and as far as I can tell most players I know are happy with learning skills. I have found that new players are actually encouraged by them.

If learning skills were removed I would say that the remaining emphasise on skill points would shift towards implants that are currently quite costly. This could well have the effect of making players less liable to move to 0.0 or low sec or engage in pvp since the only real benefit they have left from the implants could be lost and need to be replaced.

Looking at threads like this one I can see that there is real opposition to a change in learning skills. In my opinion that while not unanimous, players on the whole are happy with learning skills. I have had many players over the years thank me for my time in teaching why they are so important and I have never had one person since late 2006 suggest they were a bad idea. This makes me feel we are seeing the unhappy few complaining.

I really do hope that learning skills stay.

Frank d'Fairy
Posted - 2010.06.25 01:23:00 - [217]
 

Oh look the conservatives in the "it's fine," camp are out again.

For god's sake how can you not support this with a strait face? It's a chore and there's no reason for it. Stop acting like training learning skills is somehow a thoughtful and strateigic thing to do. It's blatantly obvious training up learnin skills is beneficial in the long run, there's no question about it. The pay-off might only be realised after a year or more, but it's there, so anyone with half a clue will be training them as quickly as possible.

I've got learning 5/5 on three characters total and i'm apalled this is still an issue.

Turdilious
Posted - 2010.06.25 01:57:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Frank d'Fairy
Oh look the conservatives in the "it's fine," camp are out again.

For god's sake how can you not support this with a strait face? It's a chore and there's no reason for it. Stop acting like training learning skills is somehow a thoughtful and strateigic thing to do. It's blatantly obvious training up learnin skills is beneficial in the long run, there's no question about it. The pay-off might only be realised after a year or more, but it's there, so anyone with half a clue will be training them as quickly as possible.

I've got learning 5/5 on three characters total and i'm apalled this is still an issue.


It isn't a chore and it isn't an issue. I'm apalled that anyone would think so.

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
Posted - 2010.06.25 02:36:00 - [219]
 

Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 06/07/2010 04:02:45
Originally by: Frank d'Fairy
Oh look the conservatives in the "it's fine," camp are out again.

For god's sake how can you not support this with a strait face? It's a chore and there's no reason for it. Stop acting like training learning skills is somehow a thoughtful and strateigic thing to do. It's blatantly obvious training up learnin skills is beneficial in the long run, there's no question about it. The pay-off might only be realised after a year or more, but it's there, so anyone with half a clue will be training them as quickly as possible.

I've got learning 5/5 on three characters total and i'm apalled this is still an issue.

Learning skills are not more of a chore than any other skill. Learning skills are just a part of a skill-system with one basic trait: getting SP takes time. The whole skill-training-system can be seen as a chore.

I mean, why does skills have training time multipliers? Isn't it a chore to train skills that take months with training time multipliers of five or more? The multipliers just have one purpose and that is to make sure that acquiring that skill take lots of time.

Maybe CCP should take away the multipliers or at least make it so that no skill have higher multiplier than 3. Those that already have those skills will not lose anything. How can you defend the chore of having to train skills with multipliers of 4-12?

Having learning skills can essentially be seen as the rest of the skills have a smaller time-multiplier. Learning skills put you in the awkward position of having to choose between a short-time benefit and benefits that are far ahead in the future. So there is the possibility to plan and also to make poor choices. I took my time to get through the learning skills, training lots of other skills in between. Sure, I could have a few more SP now if I took a faster rout. Big deal?

If you are new in the game and want learning skills just like anybody else, then you have to go through the same steps as anybody else.

Swearte Widfarend
Gallente
Aurora Security
Posted - 2010.06.25 03:22:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Frank d'Fairy
Oh look the conservatives in the "it's fine," camp are out again.

For god's sake how can you not support this with a strait face? It's a chore and there's no reason for it. Stop acting like training learning skills is somehow a thoughtful and strateigic thing to do. It's blatantly obvious training up learnin skills is beneficial in the long run, there's no question about it. The pay-off might only be realised after a year or more, but it's there, so anyone with half a clue will be training them as quickly as possible.

I've got learning 5/5 on three characters total and i'm apalled this is still an issue.


Oh look it's the entitlement crew out for a sTROLL.

Harden up. Learning skills are an option. They provide depth to the game. Go play your FPS on the XBox 360 if you want a shallow game. Some of us use our brains and hands when playing EVE, I realize that may be difficult for you, I know - SUE SOMEONE! Sure, entitlement at it's best. I don't have to work for stuff, I should just be given it because I'm special...

HTFU or get off the ride....

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.25 09:02:00 - [221]
 

So CCP are implementing a system for distributing pools of skill points.

Did somebody say SPECULATION?

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.06.25 09:11:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Swearte Widfarend
They provide depth to the game.


That's your definition of depth? Neutral

Vehlin
Black Viper Nomads
Nut Up Or Shut Up.
Posted - 2010.06.25 12:54:00 - [223]
 

The argument that by training learnings only for the first 2 months means you will lose out on a reimbursement is flawed.

For each of those learning skills you have trained you have increased your SP/Hour for the duration of those 2 months. These increases allowed you get the next tier of learning faster which in turn allowed you more SP/hour. The net effect of this is that over the 2 months where the hypothetical other character didn't train learnings and just trained for things that made isk is that you will have something that ISK can't buy, more SPs.

If learning skills are removed you will still have received the benefit of training them, through the bonus they gave you while you were training them. When your SP are reimbursed you will end up in a better position that the other guy. So how are you losing out?

Resha Tsvort
Posted - 2010.06.25 14:23:00 - [224]
 

Learning skills are bad game design, this should have been done a long time ago. Supported

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.06.25 18:05:00 - [225]
 

Not Supported.

The reasons are many and varied, most of them eloquently outlined here.

The only way I would even slightly consider supporting the removing of learning skills is if after it was all said and done reimbursement-wise everyone had their attributes set back to their original low values... with no way to raise them.

Learning skills wouldn't look so bad then, would they? Very Happy

Akov Stohs
Windowlickers Inc
Posted - 2010.06.25 19:25:00 - [226]
 

Why not let every one roll a Jedi right out of the gate? Why make them do any training at all? Its SO unfair that every one can't fly a titan their first week in.


No wait...thats stupid, it makes games fail. Also Veterans *****ing about having to train stuff on their alts is what I see here. New players don't know anything about learning skills until some vet comes along and berates them for not having them all to level 5. People figure out the best balance on their own. Few ship, few weapons, few learning, NO ONE except vets sit and train learning skills for two weeks. Stop trying to dumb down the game.

Neztruce
Minmatar
Salubrious Port Authority
Posted - 2010.06.25 19:32:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Not Supported.

The reasons are many and varied, most of them eloquently outlined here.

The only way I would even slightly consider supporting the removing of learning skills is if after it was all said and done reimbursement-wise everyone had their attributes set back to their original low values... with no way to raise them.

Learning skills wouldn't look so bad then, would they? Very Happy


Originally by: Akov Stohs
Why not let every one roll a Jedi right out of the gate? Why make them do any training at all? Its SO unfair that every one can't fly a titan their first week in.


No wait...thats stupid, it makes games fail. Also Veterans *****ing about having to train stuff on their alts is what I see here. New players don't know anything about learning skills until some vet comes along and berates them for not having them all to level 5. People figure out the best balance on their own. Few ship, few weapons, few learning, NO ONE except vets sit and train learning skills for two weeks. Stop trying to dumb down the game.


Not supported, and this is why.

Dzajic
Gallente

Posted - 2010.06.25 21:25:00 - [228]
 

To all comparing potential removal of learning skills to SWG:NGE, go burn in hell.

When I started playing I spend more than half of time of first two months learning damn learning skills. And it was annoying as hell. If I learn "someship level 4" skill I get to fly that ship better. You spend tons of time learning learning skills without any immediate or direct benefits. You only know that it will pay out over a long period of time. There is harsh and cruel, and there are needless timesinks.

As for learning to level 5. Holy smoke. I understand that people got basics to 5 when it was prequel to advanced learning, but now? A two year plan in EVEMon will give me a 5 day speedup with 3 "basic" learning skills to 5. I wonder how long skillplan would I have to make for all to 5 to give a 10 minute bonus?

Fournone
Posted - 2010.06.25 23:30:00 - [229]
 

To train or not train learning skills is just another part of eve. Its like deciding to train for a hulk or for better mining lasers, to training faster weapon cycle or longer range. Its a tactical decision that all players face. If you don't like them, don't train them. I'm happy to pronounce that I got almost all of them to 5 and cruising along most skills.

Deldrac
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.26 06:21:00 - [230]
 

**** the haters do this now.

tia.

Also, that exciting new 'hey we can give out SP' system that CCP are using for downtime compensation is perfect for this.

Dzajic
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.26 10:41:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Fournone
To train or not train learning skills is just another part of eve. Its like deciding to train for a hulk or for better mining lasers, to training faster weapon cycle or longer range. Its a tactical decision that all players face. If you don't like them, don't train them. I'm happy to pronounce that I got almost all of them to 5 and cruising along most skills.


Completely ridiculous. There is no way around it, you have to train learning skills, period. That is the problem, there is no choice. They might as well be mandatory, and the more you delay learning them the more time you lose.

Reddx Panther
Posted - 2010.06.26 11:51:00 - [232]
 

I'm pro learning skills.

For me learning skills are part of the whole skill training decision game, and I like them because it makes you choose between short term and long term benefits, which is a difficult decision to take any day.

I personally like EVE exactly because of all the tough decisions, complexity and pitfalls that the game offers, and I am against making EVE all cuddly and smooth.

For those that complain that learning skills are a time sink might consider the idea that a MMO is in general a well-designed time sink trying to bait you to log in every through some kind of sketchy reward scheme.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.26 13:37:00 - [233]
 

Strongly opposed.

SupaKudoRio
Posted - 2010.06.26 14:21:00 - [234]
 

I see little to no downside to this solution.

Honestly, I don't see why it hasn't been done already. Learning skills serve no good purpose anymore, and haven't for quite some time.

Cyrus Doul
E0 Corp
Posted - 2010.06.26 16:17:00 - [235]
 

just for fyi on you people saying that ohhh train all learning skills to five rabblerabblerabble.

Here are a few payouts from my own head which is currently 19 26 14 14 15 with no implants:

iron will v when min gal and cald titan to five amarr bs 5 390d saves 12 hours 9 min

clarity v when all four titans are to 5, 472 days 1 17 20 saved

empathy v 146d save 22 hours

presence v 372 days all of trade half of social save four hours

just to have those four skills to pay off i need to spend 844 days. The first two were clicked only selecting spaceship command. and the second two were clicked selecting trade and social skills, which, save a couple are all charisma primary. I think ill take the extra one point that ccp will bump from my current four to the proposed five now thank you.

Frank d'Fairy
Posted - 2010.06.26 20:36:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: Fournone
To train or not train learning skills is just another part of eve. Its like deciding to train for a hulk or for better mining lasers, to training faster weapon cycle or longer range. Its a tactical decision that all players face. If you don't like them, don't train them. I'm happy to pronounce that I got almost all of them to 5 and cruising along most skills.

Except if you train learning skills instead of mining barge V and exhumers II you don't get to fly, trade, shoot, steal, mine, or produce anything new. You merely accellerate the process at which you eventually do those things. In an era of EVE when most new players are obsessed with playing catch-up (for good reason, years of skilling go into core alone if you want to pilot more than a very narrow selection of ships), you cannot ignore the "must train" factor in any long-term investment skills. If they aren't training (and thus ******ing their entry into more advanced activities than suicide tackle, cheapfit miner, or station trader) learning skills as far as they can from the get-go, they're loosing more time.

No, you don't need 5/5 to start skilling anything, and no, you don't see a full return on investment for years, but for anyone who hasn't pre-determined that they'll quit the game before a few years are out, it's a non-decision. That's what makes learning skills bad.

Xorv
Posted - 2010.06.27 00:02:00 - [237]
 

Strongly support removing Learning skills.

They add nothing positive to the game and add an unnecessary hurdle for new players to get into the game.

I'll also say many of the people that want to keep features like Learning skills represent a sickness in MMOs... clinging to the idea that doing mindless unfun monotonous pointless tasks should be rewarded. I'm sure many developers love you, since it's not hard to add content that appeals to you, whether it be pressing a button one million times, killing a thousand sheep, or training pointless skills for a few months you'll love it... well, just so long as it promises to give you an edge over the other guy who isn't quite as lame as you to be wasting their time with such horrible gameplay. Personally I hope you guys stop playing MMOs and take up counting sand or something as a new hobby. That way developers will be compelled to actually make good games.

Voddick
Posted - 2010.06.27 04:10:00 - [238]
 

Not Supported. They aren't broken as long as you use them when needed and not front load 5/5. If you JUST train learning then yeah, that sucks....don't do that.

Wraithik
Posted - 2010.06.27 04:12:00 - [239]
 

Not supported. Don't remove detail / choice / and planning elements from the game!!!! This is EVE. It's supposed to have choices.

XIII'th
Posted - 2010.06.27 07:55:00 - [240]
 

OP, You have my bow, CCP, if you do it, You have my axe.
And noone can have my staff.

Full support.


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