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blankseplocked [Proposal] Learning skills solution
 
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Miyamoto Isoruku
Caldari
Original Sin.

Posted - 2010.06.22 09:10:00 - [181]
 

seems like a reasonable way to remove a pointless mechanic

Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
Posted - 2010.06.22 10:03:00 - [182]
 

To be honest, when I was a new player I had no issue with learning skills what so ever. I did not know anyone playing the game and I didn't compare myself to others. I thought the decision process between training a learning skill to the next level, or something that would benefit me immediately, was pretty interesting. I cherish the first month in the game. I thought it was great to explore the game in my own pace whether it I was ratting in low sec with a Tristan or mining Omber in a Navitas.

I don't think the game gets more fun just because I can fly fancier stuff or make more isk/hour. To me it is all about setting up a goal and pursue that goal. Its the journey there that's fun (sound cliche, I know but its true).

If a new player have friends who are prancing around with Gigatrillions of Isk and an attitude of “LUL, Im making 2B isk/hour doing this and that in my superduper pwnmobile and this is what you have to do to become as awesome as I am”, of course new players will feel inadequate.

If your approach is that its all about getting the largest Epeen in shortest possible time and you are constantly comparing yourself to those that have played the game for several years, then I can see why learning skills is a problem.
/rant

Anders Oxenstierna
Posted - 2010.06.22 12:12:00 - [183]
 

YES!

Grath Moncalimar
Minmatar
Penumbra Military Industrial Complex
Posted - 2010.06.22 14:14:00 - [184]
 

Then remove the attributes that the learning skills enhance too! Not supportedExclamation

Gewrixlera
Posted - 2010.06.22 14:42:00 - [185]
 

I Seriously disagree with changing the learning skills.

Learning skills are an option, not a requirement. You can train anything, fly anything, and do anything in EVE without them. Unlike, say Spaceship Command.

Learning Skills ARE AN OPTION. They are not required.

Yes, they provide an advantage to players who choose to train them. So what? Using a 10km Warp Scrambler provides an advantage to a player who tries to tackle someone who's fit a Warp Core Stabilizer. None of those things are required to play the game.

Regardless of whether CCP actually wants to get rid of them (and I don't think they should do anything, it's not broken), this proposal IS NOT worthy of anyone's time in the CSM or at CCP.

Removing/changing the learning skills is yet another example of modern society being so self-centered they feel that they should be entitled to something because someone else has it.

However, if CCP actually is going to do something about learning skills, then they should just remove them and the bonuses they provide. Period. Then it can take even longer for everyone to train anything. That will make the game a whole lot more fun, don't you think?

MNagy
Posted - 2010.06.22 15:11:00 - [186]
 

I do not agree with removing them.

They are not a required skill.
All the time I spent 'learning' learning skills... what happens to that.
Will I be re-imbursed for the monthly subscription fee? -no

They are not a requirement - dont add more - dont get rid of any.

If you chose not to skill them up - so you learn slower - big deal.
If you chose to skill them up - you are not skilling up in something else so maybe one day you can skill up faster.

I Do Not Support this change.

pbjoker II
Posted - 2010.06.22 18:14:00 - [187]
 

yes support the idea, lets stop talking bout it and do it already

Miyamoto Isoruku
Caldari
Original Sin.
Posted - 2010.06.22 18:23:00 - [188]
 

Why is there so much bitterness in this thread? The idea is simply to allow you to reallocate the SP you put into learning elsewhere.

Gewrixlera
Posted - 2010.06.22 19:01:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Miyamoto Isoruku
Why is there so much bitterness in this thread? The idea is simply to allow you to reallocate the SP you put into learning elsewhere.

Why should you reallocate the SP? If you trained the skills you got the benefit of having them. Period, end of sentence. If you didn't train them you didn't. When you have already had the benefit of the skill, why do you deserve additional benefits?

MNagy
Posted - 2010.06.22 19:22:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Gewrixlera
Originally by: Miyamoto Isoruku
Why is there so much bitterness in this thread? The idea is simply to allow you to reallocate the SP you put into learning elsewhere.

Why should you reallocate the SP? If you trained the skills you got the benefit of having them. Period, end of sentence. If you didn't train them you didn't. When you have already had the benefit of the skill, why do you deserve additional benefits?


Because Gewrixlera,
You spent a month learning guns, while i spent a month learning logic.
At the end of the month if they just take it away - I have nothing and you have guns.

That is why I say leave them be - dont add more, skill em up if u want or dont. Stop complaining about them taking a long time to skill up. If you dont like it - then dont skill them.

Kathleen Hallet
Minmatar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.22 19:40:00 - [191]
 

Edited by: Kathleen Hallet on 22/06/2010 19:40:54
Learning skills were never a good idea.

Liz Viscious
Caldari
Quantum Pathways

Posted - 2010.06.22 19:54:00 - [192]
 

Most definitely supported. I'm well on my way to finishing the Learning grind (to 5/4 at least), and it's been a trying experience to put it lightly. I'd much rather see new players (and accounts) training at full speed (excluding implant variables) from the start than have them work learning (and thus, months of essentially non-progressed idle time which puts off actual gameplay skills).

Really hope this topic gets some attention. It is very much worth changing for the continued growth and retention of the player base.

Acid Miner
Posted - 2010.06.22 19:54:00 - [193]
 

Excellent idea. CCP already has the tech in place to give increased LP gain.

Namelessness
Amarr
KINGS OF EDEN
Sev3rance
Posted - 2010.06.24 15:10:00 - [194]
 

Not supported!

IF you eliminate one skill that is fundamental, then you open the debate to eliminate other skills. There is nothing wrong with learning skills, what's wrong is that people who lack patience and want to speed up everything, to an unreasonable point, that is dangerous, because it does approach the "instant gratification" vs "hard work/patience" equation.

Riithi Bashere
The Red Circle Inc.
Posted - 2010.06.24 15:18:00 - [195]
 

Skills for a new player is already annoying every shiny toy you see requires ages to train.

Adding more salt to the injury with these 'learning skills' is just giving extra reasons to quit this game.
The only thing it does is create a 4-5m sp time-sink.

10k% faster is too fast, 200 or 400 would do just fine as well.

Signed.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.24 17:13:00 - [196]
 

Not supported

The only thing worse than this idea would be if CCP decided to let people buy SP.

Cyrus Doul
E0 Corp
Posted - 2010.06.24 17:54:00 - [197]
 

well CCP is putting in a function that allows you to take your tasty tasty stem cell SP that they are introducing and spending it on whatever come this coming tuesday...

/thread?

William Mill3r
Posted - 2010.06.24 18:54:00 - [198]
 

I'm strongly against them removing learning skills, as much as it sucks, I'm playing by thoses rules. I'm like 3 months old, I spent almost all my game time learning learning skills because I know I'm going to play this game for a long time, I'm alrdy penalizing myself (willingly, and I don't complain about it) for doing that, I would get penalized even more. Why should I pay twice the price for taking that decision, because some of you guys decided not to learn thoses skills and regret it ? And the other kind of people are thoses that are so old that just don't care...

Even if they were to redistribute the points it's still stupid and I'm still behind, because while you got thoses skills alrdy and used them to make tons of ISK or survive in pvp, or whatever you did with them, I didn't have them... so returning me thoses points is totally pointless to me... TOTALLY. How are you gonna give me back thoses 2 months were I didn't have thoses improved skills to make **** loads of isk ? You won't.

I decided to learn learning skills because they give me an edge at some point, I do not want it to be taken away, and be penalized... so not only people had an edge on me during all that time, but they get back at equal footing. So in short, I put an insane effort to learn almost only learning skills for 3 months for nothing.

So I hope this new system is just for downtime points gift, and not to remove learnings. Or if they do remove learning, even if they give me back thoses SP, that will NOT be enought, to pay my loss back. My character spent hours and hours injecting learning datas in his brain, he is supposed to be more advanced to learn things, you can't tell me that never took place.

Again I understand how painful the learning system skill is, for new players, I do. But if you do remove them, you penalize some of us. Especially me, who basicly never beneificed a single day of having thoses level 5... Somebody who got thoses level 5 for years years, made ****loads of SP...

I'm totally against this, I hope this is just a rumor... I'm all about not having learning skills, but only if this is done without penazling anyone, and this can't be done.

I certainly did not spend 2month and half in learning skill to have an edge in my learning curve for 2 days, that doesn't make any sense...Who would do that ? you would have to be out of your mind...

Valea Silpha
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.06.24 18:54:00 - [199]
 

Totally supported.

The learning skills are just time sink which only benefit older players. Expensive implants give vets a decent enough SP/hour advantage over newbies.

I started an alt last year with power of 2, and re-experiencing the learning grind was the most hideous thing I've ever done. Not even worth undocking for over a month. Tangfastic.

Also, I don't see why anyone would argue against getting a) a stat boost (since so few people have all 5's, this system means everyone will be training faster than before) and b) being able to sink over a million (t1 to 5, t2 to 4) SP wherever we want.

Who ever was *****ing about CCP not giving game time back needs to STFU. You get the SP back with interest tbh. The benefit of having 'free sp' would be great for everyone, and in fact even more so for vets, because we know which skills are the most subjectively valuable to us.

No-one looses with this system. Everyone retains the same total SP and the suggested loss of game time is a total non-issue. Yes, if you have all learning to 5, then you might have lost some gametime, but only if you are still waiting to break even on them, in which case you will be no more behind than you are now. If you only took t2 skills to 4 more than maybe 90 days ago you are gaining time.

TL:DR...

Pros :
Everyone trains everything faster. Good for newbs, good for vets.
Everyone who had trained any learning keeps the SP and can put it anywhere. Is there ANYONE who wouldn't like an extra mil SP in SOMETHING ?

Cons :
The all 5 chars gain least, but only if they haven't broken even on SP yet, and even then it only matters if you are very narrow minded. The benefits they got by being the first people to build or invent or fly a new whatever won't have vanished.

William Mill3r
Posted - 2010.06.24 19:23:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Valea Silpha

Cons :
The all 5 chars gain least, but only if they haven't broken even on SP yet, and even then it only matters if you are very narrow minded. The benefits they got by being the first people to build or invent or fly a new whatever won't have vanished.


Originally by: Valea Silpha

No-one looses with this system. Everyone retains the same total SP and the suggested loss of game time is a total non-issue. Yes, if you have all learning to 5, then you might have lost some gametime, but only if you are still waiting to break even on them, in which case you will be no more behind than you are now. If you only took t2 skills to 4 more than maybe 90 days ago you are gaining time.



It's not all about how many SP you have... obviously no one loosing in skill points...but my character is totally screwed.
I spent 2 months and half, with not a single usefull skill, because I learned a lot of level 5. This whole Skill thing, is all about planning, why do you think remap is 12months ? because it is a tight and long planning process... a slight changement in how things works change everything.
How do you expect me to break even ? I'm 3 month old. I'm years away to break even...
So no I don't qualify to thoses "no one".

I remain the same SP yes but as of today.... my game plan is based over years, knowing I'll be slightly ahead 95% of the people in SP, grinding and grinding, until finally I break even, AND get ahead. That's thoses points that I'm loosing. And that's how I mentally hold on 3months having **** skills...

You are obviously quite far from a correct reasoning there...

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.06.24 19:24:00 - [201]
 

Quote:
What needs to be changed is people's perception of their neccessity, but that would require changing the basic human nature of min/maxing in games where possible.


^this.

AND.. I love that message that EVE will wrench your heart if you're a Min/maxer .

Eve is fraught with conflict and the internal conflict is part of it.

Newbies need to quickly get over the warped concept that this game is about leveling up or that bigger ships are better.

Its not about how you stack up to others but what you can contribute, and unlike most mmo's where a new player is worthless ...not even worth 1/10th a person, here if employed correctly you're worth well over 50% of a max skilled person quickly (scout...tackle, prober, basic electronic warfare in a blackbird, ) You can be an important help to a corp at war in a t1-frigate that you can fly ok in about a week. True, its harder to get involved in 0.0 with low sp but there is lots else to the game.

I'd feel a bit bad for the noobs but the accelerated first 1.6 million get you up quickly..as do the way skills are construed with the first 80 percent taking 20% of the learning time.

If they wanted to further ease the burden for new players they could allow the training of the second tier learning skills with the first at lvl 3 not 4.


Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2010.06.24 19:29:00 - [202]
 

Edited by: Katarlia Simov on 24/06/2010 19:41:00
Originally by: William Mill3r
Whine


It was your choice to train only learning. What most people do is train the skills they need as they appear, and fill in with learning in the mean time.

Your first day in a new game and you decided to sit in station and do nothing for a month :S ?

That's your problem buddy.

Most everyone gets their learning skills slowly, not maxing them until its worth doing so. You can get 8 points for each attribute from learning in just over a week with the 100% training speed.

Imagine you are playing another popular MMO, involving bringing doom to elves and goblins. And you decide to go and pick herbs for two months. Would you be complaining at the end that you didn't have any non-herb skills ?

If you want balanced skills, then you have to train them in a balanced manner. If you have this massive skill plan, why didn't you just hit up evemon, toss in the skills you want and ask it to tell you which learning skills were worth training (ie would pay in the duration of the plan)

xXApophisXx
Minmatar
Interplanetary Trade Commission
Posted - 2010.06.24 19:36:00 - [203]
 

Edited by: xXApophisXx on 24/06/2010 19:40:29
Edited by: xXApophisXx on 24/06/2010 19:37:22
Edited by: xXApophisXx on 24/06/2010 19:36:54
Originally by: Katarlia Simov

Your first day in a new game and you decided to sit in station and do nothing for a month :S ?

That's your problem buddy.

Most everyone gets their learning skills slowly, not maxing them until its worth doing so. You can get 8 points from learning a week with the 100% training speed.

Imagine you are playing another popular MMO, involving bringing doom to elves and goblins. And you decide to go and pick herbs for two months. Would you be complaining at the end that you didn't have any non-herb skills ?

If you want balanced skills, then you have to train them in a balanced manner. If you have this massive skill plan, why didn't you just hit up evemon, toss in the skills you want and ask it to tell you which learning skills were worth training (ie would pay in the duration of the plan)


I have to agree with this!

EVE isn't really about Skill Points... Its about the ship you fly... Have a good ship and fitting before you leave the dock and you'll be fine... Sure you have to learn the skills in some or many cases but what you bring to the table at the time of a fight is what matters!

Noobs (Forgive the word), are still going to be ok... This change isn't a big deal! I still believe there can be more to offer for Noobs but CCP already provided you with a lot more than I ever had when I first started back in 2006! I'm still learning the game myself (I don't beleve there is a person who 100% knows EVE) and well... Baby steps... take the game a bit at a time before you go out to fight. Besides i can't blame anyone who wants to make this change... Its getting people high level mining faster and high level fighting faster etc!

Vets, your more than ok here... Gives you more people to shoot (chuckles)

William Mill3r
Posted - 2010.06.24 19:40:00 - [204]
 

Edited by: William Mill3r on 24/06/2010 19:48:35
Edited by: William Mill3r on 24/06/2010 19:42:35
Katarlia Simov:

Who is whinning ? "learning skills are too hard, they sucks, they are useless plz remove them, /whine /whine"... who is whining there ?

It's ppl who request that learning skills are removed for years and years that are the whinners...


Originally by: Katarlia Simov

Imagine you are playing another popular MMO, involving bringing doom to elves and goblins. And you decide to go and pick herbs for two months. Would you be complaining at the end that you didn't have any non-herb skills ?


your comparison doesn't even make any sense, plz get some sense in what you are saying... go back to wow... you are not on the right forum...


>>Anyway I don't care to what they are gonna do, they have probably taken their decision if it's even true. Just don't insult me, by telling nobody will be penalized, that's a lie, and is a totally poor and wrong reasoning. Now they do what they have to do, and I know what will be the consequences to my character and many others, if you think I spent 3months doing that without a tiny little bit of inner will, and that I'm gonna start crying because you flame me, you are surely mistaken. I'm out of here.

Fitz VonHeise
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.24 19:50:00 - [205]
 

Edited by: Fitz VonHeise on 24/06/2010 19:52:02

I've spent over 2 billion isk on Improved Learning implants (+5's) for many alts.

How will CCP deal with people who now have Learning implants that will soon train nothing?

Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2010.06.24 19:52:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Katarlia Simov on 24/06/2010 19:58:27
Originally by: William Mill3r
Edited by: William Mill3r on 24/06/2010 19:42:35
Katarlia Simov:

Who is whinning ? "learning skills are too hard, they sucks, they are useless plz remove them, /whine /whine"... who is whining there ?

It's ppl who request that learning skills are removed for years and years that are the whinners...


Originally by: Katarlia Simov

Imagine you are playing another popular MMO, involving bringing doom to elves and goblins. And you decide to go and pick herbs for two months. Would you be complaining at the end that you didn't have any non-herb skills ?


your comparison doesn't even make any sense, plz get some sense in what you are saying... go back to wow... you are not on the right forum...


CCP say they want to remove learning skills... Did you even read the OP ?

You sir, are the one whining.

Basically you are saying that you didn't get much mileage out of your first couple of months because you maxed learning.

But you didn't HAVE to train it, and certainly you didn't need to put it to 5.

The comparison is to illustrate that maxing one skill group ALWAYS comes at the expense of another. Yes, they are useful in their own ways, but they won't let you actually go kill stuff (ie playing the main content of the game).

Also, I've been in eve since just before exodus, never played WoW, although I did spend some time playing TabRas and CoV. Just FYI really...

Edit -

Originally by: William Mill3r

Anyway I don't care to what they are gonna do, they have probably taken their decision if it's even true. Just don't insult me, by telling nobody will be penalized, that's a lie, and is a totally poor and wrong reasoning. Now they do what they have to do, and I know what will be the consequences to my character and many others, if you think I spent 3months doing that without a tiny little bit of inner will, and that I'm gonna start crying because you flame me, you are surely mistaken. I'm out of here.



Im not insulting you, I'm telling you that, on a factual level, you will not be penalized in the sense that you will be in the same or better position after the changes than before.

It was your choice to waste your first few months in eve doing nothing, and equally you could have neglected learning to put all you frigate skills to level 5 and it would be equally wasted. No-one forced you to sit in station and do nothing. You chose to. You can run the rookie missions in an ibis, then the level 1s without actually training any further skills than you get at generation.

The only way that game time is wasted in eve is if you choose to do nothing.

Also, LOLing at your inner will. Stomping off when you don't win an argument is a wonderful way to demonstrate that. Cool

XFluke
Posted - 2010.06.24 19:55:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Fitz VonHeise
Edited by: Fitz VonHeise on 24/06/2010 19:52:02

I've spent over 2 billion isk on Improved Learning implants (+5's) for many alts.

How will CCP deal with people who now have Learning implants that will soon train nothing?


The implants are attribute enchancers.. So they improve your sttributes and not the learning skills.

CG Oglethorpe
Minmatar
Universal Army
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.06.24 19:57:00 - [208]
 

I would support any measure to remove learning skills, they are nothing more than a barrier to new players joining.

Viral Effect
Caldari
BRAINDEAD Corp
Posted - 2010.06.24 21:04:00 - [209]
 

Not Supported.

There is no problem to require a solution. Learning skills have brought many people into the game and I have never once seen anyone one put off by them. Quite to the contrary. I won’t support any dumbing down of eve online.

Cyrus Doul
E0 Corp
Posted - 2010.06.24 21:36:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: Fitz VonHeise
Edited by: Fitz VonHeise on 24/06/2010 19:52:02

I've spent over 2 billion isk on Improved Learning implants (+5's) for many alts.

How will CCP deal with people who now have Learning implants that will soon train nothing?


fitz please tell me that was a troll.

and for you people that are saying not supported. Once again let me reiterate. THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN! CCP said it is going to once they can figure out how to do it properly. its not a we want something to happen thread. its a we know you are doing it and this is how we want you to do it thread. you saying not supported and then *****ing about how it does x or y, ccp doesnt care that it does those things. and tbh they need to be taken out. my main started with mining five and industry five and cald frigate three when i made him a miner 2.5 years back. my alt started with 1's everywhere and a whole 5k sp or whatever. was worthless pile of crap for first two months or whatever until he got to the rank one level five rank 3 level four like i bet 70 percent or more of the game has them trained to. ccp doesnt want people going this is **** and quitting after a month of not being able to do ****. and if you are going to call stuff dumbing down the game taking out learning skills isnt where i would start. start at something like the time it took to use bombs a couple of patches ago vs now. (10 day or so difference.)


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