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blankseplocked [Proposal] Learning skills solution
 
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devilsspawn
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2010.06.11 10:47:00 - [151]
 

If CCP are taking away the deep safe spots because they are an advantage to older players that have them, then they should take away learning skills as well. It is the same principle; Newer players are at a disadvantage because of the lack of the learning skills being trained, where as the older players already have them.

And for those that will argue that the difference is that you cannot make the safe spots anymore, where as you can still train the learning skills, new players get a 2x training time multiplier for 1.6M SP's, whereas we did NOT get that a few years ago.

I think it is best to get rid of the learning skills, and credit them to the players in a way that they can distribute them to skills as they see fit, not as an increase to training speed. The time was already spent in training the skills, so we should be able to keep those SP's and not spend even more time to get them back.

I support this idea.

Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
Posted - 2010.06.11 11:14:00 - [152]
 

Not Supported.

Learning skills are not the factor that drive newer players away. It is the factor that drives players that would much rather play WoW away.

We have to be careful how much we dilute this game and make skill progression too easy. When I was a noob I invested the time for learning skills, I was not bored. I killed a few miners, I had a war, even though I was a corporation of one. If you define your time in eve as skills, then you are missing the point. Eve is about stories, not skills. If you wont play a game because of a little thing like learning skills, then GTFO. These people are not going to contribute to wild and adventurous things within eve, just more whines and more standardization.

Eve is a sandbox, unfortunately as more time passes I see a growing trend in eve to move away from the traditional chaos and diversity to standardization. Less flavour and more of the same. Learning skills are vital to the "Butterfly Effect" of eve and should not be regarded as just a skill set that does nothing. They create a greater differentiation between all players; new and old. This means that age isn't everything in eve as like so many other choices, learning skills in effect create a discontinuity that eve IMO is defined by.

Be careful how many of these things you standardise, because the eve you know and love is in danger of becoming just another MMO.

Learning skills should stay for the benefit of eve's dynamism. At some point CCP needs to consider it's original vision over its drive for RL isk. Too much growth without a consolidation period will always end in disaster. CCP this will really change the make up of the player population of eve and that is not a good thing. The vets who want to remove learning skills, just don't want to train new alt #2487 up again. Don't depend too much on capital from addicts, its not ethical.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.06.11 12:43:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: devilsspawn
If CCP are taking away the deep safe spots because they are an advantage to older players that have them, then they should take away learning skills as well. It is the same principle; Newer players are at a disadvantage because of the lack of the learning skills being trained, where as the older players already have them.


By that logic we should get rid of level V skills because the vets have more of them than the new players, and it takes sooo long for the poor newbies to train them! Hell, let's get rid of isk - the vets have more than the newbies! Capital ships.. those damn veterans have more of those - everything must go! Every new account should have all of the same stuff as a five year old account!

Where does the whining/madness stop? Still not supported.

Kushan
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
Posted - 2010.06.11 13:08:00 - [154]
 

Mmmmm, yes.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.11 13:58:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: devilsspawn
If CCP are taking away the deep safe spots because they are an advantage to older players that have them, then they should take away learning skills as well. It is the same principle; Newer players are at a disadvantage because of the lack of the learning skills being trained, where as the older players already have them.


By that logic we should get rid of level V skills because the vets have more of them than the new players, and it takes sooo long for the poor newbies to train them! Hell, let's get rid of isk - the vets have more than the newbies! Capital ships.. those damn veterans have more of those - everything must go! Every new account should have all of the same stuff as a five year old account!

Where does the whining/madness stop? Still not supported.


Learning skills don't do anything.

They don't influence how well your ship flies. They don't influence your guns. They don't influence your market abilities or your industrial investments.

If you remove any other skill, then you take some depth out of combat or industry. Something is lost. But if you removed a learning skill, nothing would change. Level 1 skills would still be level 1 skills and level 5 skills would still be level 5 skills.

This is an important distinction that not enough people seem to get.

You could say that without them you get too many people with too high skills, but given how big and grindy Eve is even with maxed stats, I don't think that's fair to say.

Did you know that it'll take me over a month to get Advanced Weapon Upgrades to level 5? A month for a 2% decrease in powergrid requirements for turrets and launcher bays.

Somehow I don't think Eve is going to collapse if we kill off learning skills.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.06.11 14:14:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Black Dranzer
Learning skills don't do anything.
Tell that to someone who never trains any of them.

Originally by: Black Dranzer
If you remove any other skill, then you take some depth out of combat or industry.
And if you remove these you take some depth out of the skill tree.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute

Posted - 2010.06.11 14:19:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 11/06/2010 14:18:43
Solution 1 is fully supported.

Wasting time to save time; wasn't that fun a game concept after all.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.11 16:12:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: Black Dranzer on 11/06/2010 16:17:01
Originally by: Crumplecorn
And if you remove these you take some depth out of the skill tree.


http://www.eve-files.com/media/0802/skillchart.png

Edit:

I was just going to leave it at that, but it occurs to me that you are actually mistaken.

The Learning skills do not influence the depth of the Eve skill tree. They exist in an isolated pocket, above and outside of the Skill tree. They have no affect on any other skills except the time it takes to absorb them. They are not prerequisites. Not only do they not add depth to the skill tree, I think they're the only skills that don't.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.06.11 16:41:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Black Dranzer
I don't know the difference between depth and breadth.
The learning skills are the only skills that offer any depth at all in the skill tree; without them it is simply a direct train to whatever you want.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.06.11 16:55:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Black Dranzer
I don't know the difference between depth and breadth.
The learning skills are the only skills that offer any depth at all in the skill tree; without them it is simply a direct train to whatever you want.


Definitely a direct train when you're going after something like the Triage module... yep any noob can train it and use it effectively. The "depth" you speak of is a bad thing. Rolling Eyes

-Liang

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.11 17:35:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
I have warped ideas of depth and breadth, I know how to warp quotes

You are standing here. You are telling me, with a straight face, that you would turn down the following:

Reimbursement of a load of skill points (and maybe a minor isk reimbursement)
A friendlier world for newbies who will never have any hope of overpowering you anyway
Possibly faster training times (depending on if you have your learning skills maxed or not)

At the cost of:

11 skills that all have the same basic meta affect and that have never had any direct influence on industry or combat are now obsolete

You would actually sacrifice the good not just of others but also of yourself in the name of having 11 extra icons on your skills interface. An interface which is already loaded with skills, an interface that you could never hope of fully filling in anyway.

You are either a masochist, a sadist, or obsessive compulsive. Either you like suffering, you like seeing others suffer, or having those learning skills fulfills some deep need in you to see large completed spreadsheets. I have been over the problem a dozen times. You're not an idiot, like many. You understand the problem. You understand the arguments. You just don't agree for some bizarre reason that I may simply be unable to appreciate because I'm cursed with a mind that's designed to think outside of its own space.

The only people who enjoy getting learning skills are those who enjoy seeing progress bars climb. The enjoyment of watching progress bars climb could be better spent on other skills without screwing over all but an obsessive minority. Any new player presented with all the facts would surely choose to have learning skills removed.

Perhaps you simply have a burning desire for the days of old, and will cling to that past even if it leaves the world around you burning. Either way, I give up. I don't know what convoluted agenda you hold, but I am certain that it is deep seated, emotional, and altogether irrational.

Fitting for a Gallente.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.06.11 22:04:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Black Dranzer
words
While that was quite a well written analysis, it is predicated on the assumption that I care if they remove the learning skills. I don't. (Nor do I see any reason to 'reimburse' vets for skills they would effectively still have)

I have no agenda. Remove them, don't remove them, makes no difference to me. I simply disagree with the arguments made in favour of removing them.

Kismo
Posted - 2010.06.12 15:53:00 - [163]
 

you obviously do care if they remove learning skills otherwise you wouldnt troll the thread so hard. its bad for noobs so make them go

Xylopia
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.06.13 06:56:00 - [164]
 

What is this? I don't support OP's silly proposal.

Here, he puts up better than I do.
Originally by: Celeste Coeval
Not Supported.

Learning skills are not the factor that drive newer players away. It is the factor that drives players that would much rather play WoW away.

We have to be careful how much we dilute this game and make skill progression too easy. When I was a noob I invested the time for learning skills, I was not bored. I killed a few miners, I had a war, even though I was a corporation of one. If you define your time in eve as skills, then you are missing the point. Eve is about stories, not skills. If you wont play a game because of a little thing like learning skills, then GTFO. These people are not going to contribute to wild and adventurous things within eve, just more whines and more standardization.

Eve is a sandbox, unfortunately as more time passes I see a growing trend in eve to move away from the traditional chaos and diversity to standardization. Less flavour and more of the same. Learning skills are vital to the "Butterfly Effect" of eve and should not be regarded as just a skill set that does nothing. They create a greater differentiation between all players; new and old. This means that age isn't everything in eve as like so many other choices, learning skills in effect create a discontinuity that eve IMO is defined by.

Be careful how many of these things you standardise, because the eve you know and love is in danger of becoming just another MMO.

Learning skills should stay for the benefit of eve's dynamism. At some point CCP needs to consider it's original vision over its drive for RL isk. Too much growth without a consolidation period will always end in disaster. CCP this will really change the make up of the player population of eve and that is not a good thing. The vets who want to remove learning skills, just don't want to train new alt #2487 up again. Don't depend too much on capital from addicts, its not ethical.

QFT

AncientGuardian
Gallente
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2010.06.13 07:30:00 - [165]
 

I agree with the OP in principle.

IMHO, If CCP really wants to dump the learning skills, then just slap all chars with a pool.

89 Skill points (39base points + 50 from maxed learning skills) in a pool, that players could cash on each attribute.
However, I feel that the base learning skill itself should be kept, doing the same thing it does now, adds 2% per skill level to the total SP on each attribute.


Then, pull the total skill points that was used into a respec pool that players can distribute to which ever skill they want


In principle, I agree with the OP, I think the method should be slightly different, I like the Pooled concept a bit better than a fixed attribute map.

Harrent
Posted - 2010.06.13 09:00:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Harrent on 13/06/2010 09:00:03
Learning skills are a viable tactic in determining the ability of a pesron to allocate skills in a realistic and game changing way.

Whether or not people choose to train them will either better or worsen their experience to eve. The REMAP feature along with implants make these skills optional to train; however, beneficial if trained early.

This is a benefit to the game.

This topic is NOT supported. Learning skills add a significant feature to the game.

fairimear
Gallente
The Sp00Ks

Posted - 2010.06.13 11:33:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: fairimear on 13/06/2010 11:37:28

They are stupid.
every one who has sp in them should have it refunded onto their training que.
All characters existing and new should then have the maximum potential attributes for their bloodline and what the current learning skills would have added.

Simple. End of talk should just be done.
No one can really argue. People without them now get the bonus. People with them get keep their sp and maybe get to fly a new ship or sumthing.


They add nothing to the game. The player picks the skills he learns and thus the effectivness of his overal characters specilization. The learning skills themself simply determine the rate he heads down the road. As a veteran i do not hugely care if i do not get the sp i have invested in learningskills. I do beleive that it makes sense to reimburse but i also beleive that the learning skills should be removed more.

Sodapope Paperstraws
Posted - 2010.06.13 19:07:00 - [168]
 

Learning skills basically look like a tacky facebook game feature, like paying money for extra turns.

A new player doesn't know what the full skill tree looks like. Generally, before research, players will assume after seeing the second tier that there is probably additional skills beyond the 11 that actually exist, and don't put much more thought into the game after that.

elenor drifter
Posted - 2010.06.15 10:59:00 - [169]
 

ok not saw if this has been mentioned in among the tons of repplys to this thred,

the skills should still mean somthing they are a majure part of the eve learning slope,

if ur gonna take the attribute enhancement away then dont get rid of the skill, give it a different bonus like

1.5% bonus to accumulated SP PH (primary attribute)0.025% bonus (secondary atribute) to all skills requireing its ond atribute enhancement, so at lvl 5 it would give a 7.5% bonus to total SP gained (primary attribute) 0.125% (secondary) u could have one new skill un the learning headding for each seperate tree (whilst keeping the learning skill its self)

Takashi Halamoto
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.15 11:35:00 - [170]
 

Alot of the people not supporting dont seem to be able to read or read half a line and red mist decended

CCP WILL GET RID OF LEARNING SKILLS - THEY ONLY NEED TO FIND A SOLUTION THEN THEY WILL DO IT

ergo there is no arguing for learning skills, they will go as soon as ccp has a solution or says to hell with it and just abolishes them and angers the players because they couldnt get a supported solution

I SUPPORT GIVE ALL CHARACTERS +10 TO ALL STATS

because that increases the divisor for skill learning by 15 for all pilots, and what is a big barrier to new players is the time it takes for them to train up reasonable skills, a flat boost in stats to everyone wont affect the old vets who have +8 - +10 in all stats from learning anyway, but will significantly improve the training time of skills for all players under 1yr old helping them get the skills needed to start doing more faster

REMEMBER THIS IS ABOUT GIVING CCP AN OPTION THAT DOSNT JUST SIMPLY REMOVE THEM AND ANNOY EVERYONE

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.06.16 02:01:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Takashi Halamoto
Alot of the people not supporting dont seem to be able to read or read half a line and red mist decended

CCP WILL GET RID OF LEARNING SKILLS - THEY ONLY NEED TO FIND A SOLUTION THEN THEY WILL DO IT

ergo there is no arguing for learning skills, they will go as soon as ccp has a solution or says to hell with it and just abolishes them and angers the players because they couldnt get a supported solution

I SUPPORT GIVE ALL CHARACTERS +10 TO ALL STATS

because that increases the divisor for skill learning by 15 for all pilots, and what is a big barrier to new players is the time it takes for them to train up reasonable skills, a flat boost in stats to everyone wont affect the old vets who have +8 - +10 in all stats from learning anyway, but will significantly improve the training time of skills for all players under 1yr old helping them get the skills needed to start doing more faster

REMEMBER THIS IS ABOUT GIVING CCP AN OPTION THAT DOSNT JUST SIMPLY REMOVE THEM AND ANNOY EVERYONE


I dont care and probly most dont care about the if they add stats to all or boost training times. What realy maters for us older players the trained them up is geting to spend thoughs sp's right now on the skills we want them in.

Becouse we already spent that time training. Not only that we have +5mil sp's in max training skills but when we trained them it was a much longer training time to get up to them.

So the real deal here is do we just give them the +5mil sp's they have in there training skills are do we also rembust them and addital amout of sp's for all the time they spent training learning skills with out max learning skills to help them train them?

I say remburs all learning skills SP + 10% sp as compistion. And let that pilot pick were he wants to place the sp right at that moment he logs in to his toon.ugh

Takashi Halamoto
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.16 08:18:00 - [172]
 

if learning skills had never been in the game it would have taken all us vets another year or more to get to where we currently are, im sure my learning skills havesaved me months, thats the whole reason why we all trained learning skills early, they paid themselves back in spending a month training them by saving us months in the long run, we have had the benefit, lots of it, and by getting +10 to all stats we dont loose anything,

as an example this is like someone investing money in a company
years later share dividends have paid back that investment many times over and the company is about to go under and you complain that just getting your money back isnt fair you want a proift,
You already had the profit it just didnt announce itself

start a new toon on your main (only temporary) load him into eve mon, set up a network of skill plans to train up to all the skills you have right now but without touching learning skills, see how many years that would take, now look at your main characters age,

you got your profit right there, youve saved time, the one resource thats near priceless


Sandra Smith
Posted - 2010.06.16 09:39:00 - [173]
 

Not supported.

This game is about making others cry and learning skills do that.

Ideally add a third tier of them to filter out those players with weak spines before they ruin the game further.

Spugg Galdon
Posted - 2010.06.16 09:41:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Takashi Halamoto
if learning skills had never been in the game it would have taken all us vets another year or more to get to where we currently are, im sure my learning skills havesaved me months, thats the whole reason why we all trained learning skills early, they paid themselves back in spending a month training them by saving us months in the long run, we have had the benefit, lots of it, and by getting +10 to all stats we dont loose anything,

as an example this is like someone investing money in a company
years later share dividends have paid back that investment many times over and the company is about to go under and you complain that just getting your money back isnt fair you want a proift,
You already had the profit it just didnt announce itself

start a new toon on your main (only temporary) load him into eve mon, set up a network of skill plans to train up to all the skills you have right now but without touching learning skills, see how many years that would take, now look at your main characters age,

you got your profit right there, youve saved time, the one resource thats near priceless




I have to agree with Tak here. I am roughly the same age as most of my corp mates and I have all but the two charisma skills to lvl 5. Which took me ages. All my corp mates in the beginning said that I was a bit stupid to take them all that far. However I have now surpassed most of my corp mates simply because I took the time. This solution that has been presented is almost fair however, it does not account for the accelerated training time I have benefited from in the mean time. How would we calculate that or is it simply STFUAGOWT?

This game is all about investing time. That's what makes it so special. When you lose a ship or a clone its not the ISK you're bothered about. Its how long it took you to accumulate that isk and then, build your ship, get all your implants in etc etc.

Losing learning skills (all together) is IMO a bad idea. Perhaps (new) people could get an option in character creation to apply some sp in the basic learning skills area. I have no problem with giving new players more SP on character creation.

Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
Posted - 2010.06.16 09:54:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Spugg Galdon

Losing learning skills (all together) is IMO a bad idea. Perhaps (new) people could get an option in character creation to apply some sp in the basic learning skills area. I have no problem with giving new players more SP on character creation.

Maybe give all new chars basic learning skills to L4 and advanced 3 in addition to what they currently get?

Reldor Silverheart
Gallente
Posted - 2010.06.16 12:37:00 - [176]
 

Not supported.

However i do agree that learning skills can be tedius yes, but you aren't forced to train them in the first place. True however is that most people including me will advise one to do that, i did it myself and i've only played for a few months myself.

But i also have a solution for new people, many complain that new people spend their first weeks just sitting around being bored etc, which can be true if you take on learning skills ASAP.

My solution is that you spend the first 2-3 weeks either training for a mining or combat ship. Say getting racial frigate 5, weapon skill to 5 so that you can use whatever t2 weapons system and tanking skills to reasonable level, this could also go for a miner aswell getting into a retiever and start making some money.

Playing around some in EVEmon gives me that, for the non missile using races it would take about 1 month to get into a fully useable combat frigate with t2 weapons.
skills
Weapon system of your choice
Specalisations to 4
Racial frigate to 5

Estimated SP
1.12 million SP.

As far as caldari and basic skills go for combat(I don't fly caldari so i could be wrong here) it is about the same time.
Skills
rocket specalisation 4
Missile launcher operations 5
Rockets 5
Caldari frigate 5

Estiamted SP
1.2 Million

Now for a miner, basic choice here would be the retriever. Theese are only the basic skills needed.
But for a completely fresh toon to get into a retriever it would only be about 2 weeks. Netting you a SP amount of aproximately 561k.

True going for combat is abit more skill intensive and puts you at a higher Estimated SP. But it would also nullify the argument that you can't do anything because of learning skills.

I chose only to pick up the most common proffesions. The advantage here aswell is that once you complete your learning skills you will be able to get into any t2 frigate of your choice once you train the skills needed for it. But you will also be able to so something while you train the learning skills, granted level 1's aren't that much fun, but you will be able to do them somewhat efficently. The skillplan lacks other needed skills which is true, but those do not really have a huge impact on level 1's in my exerpience.

Anyway theese are just my two cents.




BFish
Gallente
Bushwhackers
Rough Necks
Posted - 2010.06.17 07:09:00 - [177]
 

I like learning skills. Personally I think they give new players time to become accustomed to the game, and to figure out what path they want to take.

Not supported.

Kaya Divine
Gallente
Kittens Factory
Posted - 2010.06.22 06:27:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: BFish
I like learning skills. Personally I think they give new players time to become accustomed to the game, and to figure out what path they want to take.

Not supported.

As usual, people who are not supporting didn't even read topic.Rolling Eyes
We dont discuss should they be removed, or do you like them.
But when they are removed, would this solution be fine, or not...

Blade Murderhorn
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution

Posted - 2010.06.22 08:02:00 - [179]
 

Signed! sounds like a great idea

Weegie Miso
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Damu'Khonde
Posted - 2010.06.22 09:04:00 - [180]
 

Supported. They don't add anything to the game but an extra slog and i know they put off new players. Especially when you get idiots telling them to buy the game and do nothing but sit in a station and train learning skills for the first couple weeks (although to be fair, that's more the idiots' fault than the learning skills, but still...)


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