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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.06.04 16:33:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Give it up, Crumplecorn.
Not as long as I have time to kill YARRRR!!
Though you're right that minmaxers will likely never see past minmaxing.

Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Train everything frustratingly slow until they quit - "I've been playing this game for 6 months and I can barely fly a cruiser!"
- Train everything frustratingly slow for a month or two while they get some skills for their profession. Then burn a month on learning skills and continue playing the game.
- Burn a month on learning skills and then start playing the game. These people overwhelmingly quit the game because it's incredibly boring.
You conveniently left out the most sensible option for non minmaxers. Protip: The learning skills do not have to be trained all at once.

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Eve is a game of progressive specialization until you have a pretty extreme amount of SP
EVE is a game of doing whatever you want until you run out of things you want.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.06.04 16:48:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn

Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Train everything frustratingly slow until they quit - "I've been playing this game for 6 months and I can barely fly a cruiser!"
- Train everything frustratingly slow for a month or two while they get some skills for their profession. Then burn a month on learning skills and continue playing the game.
- Burn a month on learning skills and then start playing the game. These people overwhelmingly quit the game because it's incredibly boring.
You conveniently left out the most sensible option for non minmaxers. Protip: The learning skills do not have to be trained all at once.


This is your own way of min/maxing, but ultimately doesn't change the options that the player has - because you're still effectively burning a month of time on learning skills (whether it's all at once or not is kinda immaterial).

Quote:

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Eve is a game of progressive specialization until you have a pretty extreme amount of SP
EVE is a game of doing whatever you want until you run out of things you want.


One could argue this, but that end comes much sooner when you do stupid things and generally fail at the game. Even still, learning skills should not stand in the way of doing what you want to do as they currently do.

-Liang

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.06.04 17:01:00 - [123]
 

Maybe we should have learning skills that help you learn learning skills faster. Wink That would give everyone more options and choices of how to create their character.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.06.04 17:18:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
(whether it's all at once or not is kinda immaterial)
Only if you look at it from a 'will I have as many SPs as the Joneses in 2 years' end game minmaxing point of view.

Originally by: Liang Nuren
learning skills should not stand in the way of doing what you want to do as they currently do.
Saying it, not making it true, etc etc.

Cyrus Doul
E0 Corp
Posted - 2010.06.04 17:39:00 - [125]
 

Ill sign this if i get to have my 1.8 million sp back. ill even put it into fighters so its not worth anything again and will let me train that hateful fighter bomber book making me not have all the skills in the set.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.06.04 17:58:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Liang Nuren
(whether it's all at once or not is kinda immaterial)
Only if you look at it from a 'will I have as many SPs as the Joneses in 2 years' end game minmaxing point of view.


No, not only if I look at it that way. More of a "this price has to be paid so that I don't frustrate the **** out of myself with 75 day battleship 5s" point of view.

Quote:
Saying it, not making it true, etc etc.


Yes... exactly. You saying that it doesn't matter if it takes 25 days of 50 days to train a skill doesn't make it true. It does matter. As I said - I would rather have "noobs" start the game and train real skills that help them do something in the game instead of meta skills.

-Liang

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.06.04 18:41:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Malcanis
Give it up, Crumplecorn. These guys come from games where you "win" by maxing out your character sheet, and they're not capable of/interested in understanding any other way to 'play'. They're not wrong in their terms of reference. That's why you're never going to win them over.


New players have three options:
- Train everything frustratingly slow until they quit - "I've been playing this game for 6 months and I can barely fly a cruiser!"
- Train everything frustratingly slow for a month or two while they get some skills for their profession. Then burn a month on learning skills and continue playing the game.
- Burn a month on learning skills and then start playing the game. These people overwhelmingly quit the game because it's incredibly boring.

You may claim that the last option is stupid...


No, I claim that there's a 4th option, which I have pointed out repeatedly in this an other threads, and you have repeatedly ignored, for whatever reason.

- Intermingle learning skills and other skills; 50% of the initial 1.6M bonused SP will suffice to get a player to 4+4 (4+2 on CHA), at which point he'll be learning at ~90% of the rate of the most maxed out player in the game. You can get to this point within the first month with a well-done skillplan.

If you're going to say that doing this is overly onerous, we'll just have to agree to disagree. As it is, I'm borderline on thinking you're trolling me for ignoring this option every time you reply to my posts. Your refusal to acknowledge anything except extreme options (ALL LEARNINGS TO V BEFORE UNDOCKING) in either direction (NOT ONE RANK IN LEARNING SKILLS BEFORE HAC V!) makes discussion with you pointless.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.06.04 19:13:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

No, I claim that there's a 4th option, which I have pointed out repeatedly in this an other threads, and you have repeatedly ignored, for whatever reason.



I didn't ignore that option at all. You're acting like this somehow means that they didn't burn this time training meta skills instead of real skills. This entire thread can be summed up with choosing between two situations:

1. People log in and they spend time training other skills so that they can train skills. This significantly delays their ability to train real skills.
2. People log in and train real skills.

You're choosing #1 for brain dead reasons - straight up. There's no excuse for this game having learning skills.

-Liang

xChevalierx
Posted - 2010.06.05 00:12:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Maybe we should have learning skills that help you learn learning skills faster. Wink That would give everyone more options and choices of how to create their character.


lol, pure genius, but why stop there. We can also have learning skills that help the learning skills that help your learning skills train faster for mad leet training.

Darkwolf
Caldari
TOG Empire
Combat Mining and Logistics
Posted - 2010.06.05 01:37:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: Darkwolf on 05/06/2010 01:37:09
Originally by: xChevalierx
lol, pure genius, but why stop there. We can also have learning skills that help the learning skills that help your learning skills train faster for mad leet training.


Yo dawg, we heard you like learning, so we put your learning on your learning so you can learn while you learn.

Anyway. Personally, I think Learning skills are an unnecessary isk and time sink for new players, and should go. However, for those of us that have already learned them, I also think that we should get a "training bonus" equal to the amount of points we've already spent in learning, so we can distribute that SP (and the time!) elsewhere when they are removed.

LoRDa RaMOs
Art of War Alliance
Posted - 2010.06.05 18:08:00 - [131]
 

Of course they will remove them and make your gameplay slower so you can suscribe for longer. Kind of. This is an elegant solution tho, so supported.

jentaki
Posted - 2010.06.05 18:53:00 - [132]
 

If CCP are indeed looking to remove learning skills then i too would like a SP boost equal to the sp trained in learning.

I support LP replacement. Either in a short skill train boost in game or a web based one time sp skill plan creation and completion.

so if they are doing away with learning it stands to reason they are doing away with attributes. what are they going to be doing with 1-5 slot implants?

Kaya Divine
Gallente
Kittens Factory
Posted - 2010.06.06 06:30:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: jentaki


so if they are doing away with learning it stands to reason they are doing away with attributes. what are they going to be doing with 1-5 slot implants?

Not with learning, but with learning skills. You will have your attributes for other skills, they will just be automatically increased by 10 +10%...so you will benefit from implants in the same way as you do today.

Asik Rova
Unlimited Industries

Posted - 2010.06.06 08:17:00 - [134]
 

supported

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.06.06 11:58:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Rip Minner on 06/06/2010 12:01:45
I dont support this.

So far I have not seen one good resion to remove them. And only bad ideals on how to go about it.

This has zero to do with new players. There is a point as a new player were you have to come to grips with the fact your never going to be on the same sp level as all the older players. That is what turns new players away not the learning skills themself they just make them face that fact sooner reather then later.

Secondly is I dont want eve to be like all the other mmo's man. I dont want to race to a cap level. I hated that alot. I like that fact there is no cap level and that they keep adding more skills all the time so you always have something to work on in the skills part of eve.

Lastly you truely dont need massive sp to compet in one single thing. You just need to train the right sp pool for what you plan to be doing. And pick something that you will like doing for a spell as it will take time to train the right sp pool to go and do something alse.

Edit: Eve is not a instant gradifaction game its a game were you have to take time to evolve your toon. Dont jack with the balance or the force will bite us all in the rear.

Serinas Setzuni
Posted - 2010.06.06 13:17:00 - [136]
 

I know with my first character I reached the 1.6m mark without much in the way of learning skills trained... Seeing all the learning skills baloon to many days each convinced me to reroll... If I hadn't been enjoying Eve, this post wouldn't exist...

I am sometimes tempted to start another alt and train her 'properly' with all learning skills to 4 or 5, but then I consider the training time to do so and realize that I should just stick to my main and just drop in another learning skill whenever I don't know what to train...

I know now that if I had stuck to that first character, I would have spent my second month training learning skills and might be that much closer to all the things I want to do in Eve... and I probably wouldn't be split up amongst so many things... Ah well, something to think about when I someday get another account, she can resume her training then...

Kaya Divine
Gallente
Kittens Factory
Posted - 2010.06.06 22:30:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Rip Minner
Edited by: Rip Minner on 06/06/2010 12:01:45


So far I have not seen one good resion to remove them. And only bad ideals on how to go about it.


Yet again I will underline the fact that we dont discuss here about should they be removed...because its something CCP is working on.
But about what will happen, and whats the best solution for theirs removal.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.06.07 01:18:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Kaya Divine
Originally by: Rip Minner
Edited by: Rip Minner on 06/06/2010 12:01:45


So far I have not seen one good resion to remove them. And only bad ideals on how to go about it.


Yet again I will underline the fact that we dont discuss here about should they be removed...because its something CCP is working on.
But about what will happen, and whats the best solution for theirs removal.


Link the devblog or gtfo. They have talked about mybe pulling them for years but they have not and will not. Why becouse its not realy a problem and two they cant find a good way to realy do this so its never going to happen. They my think or talk about it here and there for 8 more years to come but I would not bet on it happening any time soon.

Kaya Divine
Gallente
Kittens Factory
Posted - 2010.06.07 03:30:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Rip Minner
Originally by: Kaya Divine
Originally by: Rip Minner
Edited by: Rip Minner on 06/06/2010 12:01:45


So far I have not seen one good resion to remove them. And only bad ideals on how to go about it.


Yet again I will underline the fact that we dont discuss here about should they be removed...because its something CCP is working on.
But about what will happen, and whats the best solution for theirs removal.


Link the devblog or gtfo. They have talked about mybe pulling them for years but they have not and will not. Why becouse its not realy a problem and two they cant find a good way to realy do this so its never going to happen. They my think or talk about it here and there for 8 more years to come but I would not bet on it happening any time soon.

You shouldn't be angry towards strangers, you should meditate and find peace in yourself before wondering around forums. Its good for karma...and stress levels.

If you did read this topic then you would seen a link, and by watching video linked you would come to realization that you are wrong.
Second, you are not forced to post in this topic, you did that with your own free will. And because this topic is not about should they, or when...but how...at least pretend that you know about subject before starting an argument.


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.06.07 03:34:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Rip Minner
Link the devblog or gtfo. They have talked about mybe pulling them for years but they have not and will not. Why becouse its not realy a problem and two they cant find a good way to realy do this so its never going to happen. They my think or talk about it here and there for 8 more years to come but I would not bet on it happening any time soon.


First, would you mind reading the thread before you go off flaming? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAgUwEztj28#t=38m40s

Second, learning skills basically present us with these two options:
1. People log in and they spend time training other skills so that they can train skills. This significantly delays their ability to train real skills - no matter if they train their skills all at once ("best result") or interspersed ("80/20 result").
2. People log in and train real skills.

The proper solution is ALWAYS going to be #2 from a new player's perspective. And as a corp CEO (not that we recruit noobs...), I'd really prefer #2 as well. AND I DON'T EVEN GIVE A **** IF THEY GIVE ME MY SP BACK IN ANY WAY. But dammit learning skills do nothing but detract from the game. Remove them already.

-Liang

Surda Elysium
Posted - 2010.06.07 03:59:00 - [141]
 

I support the removal of Learning skills. Many a newb has been turned off by the common (yet false) perception that you need to train Learning skills first to get anywhere in the game. Removing Learning skills gets newbies faster into flying ships and having fun, retaining their interest in the game.

Crysetra Envgardian
Caldari
Pilipino Corp
Primary.
Posted - 2010.06.07 04:22:00 - [142]
 

I wish CCP could implement this change already. Players coming from other games are inclined to think SP = levels and always think they are forced to train Learning skills in order to "catch up" with veteran players. The real problem is training Learning skills don't help you do anything fun in the game, and that is when many new players leave.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.06.07 07:09:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Rip Minner
Link the devblog or gtfo. They have talked about mybe pulling them for years but they have not and will not. Why becouse its not realy a problem and two they cant find a good way to realy do this so its never going to happen. They my think or talk about it here and there for 8 more years to come but I would not bet on it happening any time soon.


First, would you mind reading the thread before you go off flaming? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAgUwEztj28#t=38m40s

Second, learning skills basically present us with these two options:
1. People log in and they spend time training other skills so that they can train skills. This significantly delays their ability to train real skills - no matter if they train their skills all at once ("best result") or interspersed ("80/20 result").
2. People log in and train real skills.

The proper solution is ALWAYS going to be #2 from a new player's perspective. And as a corp CEO (not that we recruit noobs...), I'd really prefer #2 as well. AND I DON'T EVEN GIVE A **** IF THEY GIVE ME MY SP BACK IN ANY WAY. But dammit learning skills do nothing but detract from the game. Remove them already.

-Liang


Are you kiding me this video. Man you could cut a video from every time they touch on the subject of newbies and learning skills. And that was what in 2009 were havle way though 2010.

You got to see its the same old song and dance. It ant going to happen anytime soon.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.06.07 16:19:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Rip Minner
Are you kiding me this video. Man you could cut a video from every time they touch on the subject of newbies and learning skills. And that was what in 2009 were havle way though 2010.


You know, in the life of a game where WIS has been a planned expansion for 4 years and it took 2 years for the latest nano nerf to hit... 1 year isn't so long. Hell its only 2 expansion cycles for a problem they admitted was difficult to solve - mostly because sticks in the mud like you want people wasting time with learning skills instead of jumping right into the game.

-Liang

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.06.09 07:31:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Rip Minner on 09/06/2010 07:42:02
Edited by: Rip Minner on 09/06/2010 07:40:35
Edited by: Rip Minner on 09/06/2010 07:37:28
Edited by: Rip Minner on 09/06/2010 07:32:19
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Rip Minner
Are you kiding me this video. Man you could cut a video from every time they touch on the subject of newbies and learning skills. And that was what in 2009 were havle way though 2010.


You know, in the life of a game where WIS has been a planned expansion for 4 years and it took 2 years for the latest nano nerf to hit... 1 year isn't so long. Hell its only 2 expansion cycles for a problem they admitted was difficult to solve - mostly because sticks in the mud like you want people wasting time with learning skills instead of jumping right into the game.

-Liang


No your wrong I would love for them to refund my sp's and I would take full advanage of starting sleeper accounts for R&D datacores. I'm just saying it ant going to happen anytime soon.

You see there are more problems then just giving the sp's to people that already trained this skills it removes alot of barrers for older players to explot too.

Edit whats to stop older players from starting a fresh Training first thing for +% implants and speed training to R&D on the toons one account and just sleeping it. Nothing and You can now do it in so much faster if you bypass learning skills.

This is just one possablity. Its also has to do with why you can only train one toon at a time on one account should we though that out the door too?

I would love to see training skills go and beable to train all 3 toons on my account at the same time I'm all for it but to get CCP to say its wrong and were going to change that is easy.

To get them to realy change it thats a hole differnt ball of wax.

Black Dranzer
Caldari
Posted - 2010.06.09 14:35:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Rip Minner
stuff


This man bring sup the first relevant point I've seen in this thread: Vulnerability to exploitation. I personally believe the exploitation risk is fairly minor, but I have no hard and fast counters to this because industry isn't my game.

----------------------------------------

I've been thinking about this for a few days, and I haven't really changed my mind; I saw one post in another thread, they basically said that learning skills are optional in the same way that legs are optional. You won't die without them, and you can still get around, but it's generally going to be extremely slow and inefficient, and good luck competing with anybody else who isn't also missing limbs.

The fact is, there is a skill race. That skill race has a cap in the way that you can only get so efficient at piloting a specific ship, and the returns are diminishing, but ultimately, there is a race. It'd be different if we were just wandering around whacking wolves for 20 exp a piece, but this isn't a standard MMO; Eve is, and always has been, very PvP centric.

If you're going to get learning skills, you're going to have to spend a lot of time learning them when you could be learning skills that actually provide some useful purpose. If you're not going to get learning skills, you're crippled compared to those who are. It doesn't matter if you get learning skills right away or after 5 years or spread out over the space of six months, you're still going to be burning that time. And if you're going to get them, the sooner you get them, the better off you are in the long run.

But I really need to say this hard and fast: Without the speed increase from the learning skills, Eve is horrendously slow. That's a completely subjective opinion, but given how many people have high level learning skills, I'm going to take a stab and guess that a lot of people agree with me.

DProto
Posted - 2010.06.09 19:05:00 - [147]
 

/Signed

Kaya Divine
Gallente
Kittens Factory
Posted - 2010.06.10 18:39:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Rip Minner
Are you kiding me this video. Man you could cut a video from every time they touch on the subject of newbies and learning skills. And that was what in 2009 were havle way though 2010.


You know, in the life of a game where WIS has been a planned expansion for 4 years and it took 2 years for the latest nano nerf to hit... 1 year isn't so long. Hell its only 2 expansion cycles for a problem they admitted was difficult to solve - mostly because sticks in the mud like you want people wasting time with learning skills instead of jumping right into the game.

-Liang


Good point.

Steelshine
Caldari
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.06.11 06:15:00 - [149]
 

Supported.

I recently got a friend to try out the game, loved the tutorial and was interested. He's still up in the air about subscribing/buying but when I explained he'd be well off training learning skill first it somewhat deflated him. He's a smart enough player to realize they are extremely helpful long term, but what I think some of the detractors here fail to forget is that sinking 2 weeks - 1month into something is commonplace when you have 20m SP, during your first month or two when you can hardly fly anything or use anything, buckling down and training for nothing but +1 attributes for weeks seems...lame.

Removing skills and giving everyone +10 and +10% simply makes it easier for new players to get into the game. I'd appreciate a refund, but it's really not necessary. And if this is one more thing that helps retain new subscribers, then i'm all for it. New people are the continued life of the game.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.06.11 07:20:00 - [150]
 

Screw it I dont even care any more. Just give me my 1,892,315 SP back and we can all get on with our lives.


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