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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.05.27 17:12:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Cearain
This seems like a good idea. But why not just give people who have learning skills the sp to put where ever they want? Whats with the 1000% increase in speed?

The only potential drawback I see from this is that we may all be able to learn skills too fast. Maybe only give everyone +7 accross the board and reimburse all the sp spent in learning.





I mean obviously we can't respect the choices people have made for their characters, right? That's out of the question.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.05.27 17:33:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

I mean obviously we can't respect the choices people have made for their characters, right? That's out of the question.


Huh?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.05.27 18:34:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
THERE IS NO RACE


You and Malcanis are probably the biggest failure *******s I've seen in Eve recently. What, really, do you think that learning skills add to the game? The simple truth of the matter is that learning skills add nothing to the game except an unnecessary grind that prevents A LARGE NUMBER of people from more fully enjoying the game. How can you deny the game would be better if people could just start training skills?

Also, there absolutely a race. First, you will "race" to get into a ship which you feel will be fun. Second, you will "race" to get into situations which make more ISK - such as doing L4 missions. Third, you will "race" your friends to be able to do something. You will also notice people end up setting 'mileposts' that they want to accomplish, downloading Evemon, and training a bunch of learning skills. The time spent training these learning skills is time that they could have used to become more proficient more quickly. They make the game unfriendly to new comers.

The funny thing is that I'd love to see learning skills removed from the game purely for the sake of making the game more approachable. I don't even care if you credit my accounts with the SP in any way (and three of my five characters have significant learning investments).

-Liang

The Grouch
Hostile Takeover.
Posted - 2010.05.27 20:55:00 - [64]
 

Not Supported. Learning skills are meant to be trained extensively when you're ready to train other skills extensively. "Catching up" is impossible so don't even try. Lastly, I understand excactly what other people are saying here about the "unfunness" factor people have. In eve we call it "ship spinning". It should be a sign that you need to go find something to do. You could train into a assault frigate with tech 2 guns before you even reach your 1.6 mil cutoff, so again I'm just not sure how you wouldn't have something to do while the skills are training.

Makes me wonder how many of you will want other skills dropped because you can't be bother to train them.

Also, this isn't a "I had to do and so do you!" post, its a "Go find something to do instead of watching your skill timer and stop sweating the small stuff" post.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.27 21:18:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
You and Malcanis are probably the biggest failure *******s I've seen in Eve recently. What, really, do you think that learning skills add to the game? The simple truth of the matter is that learning skills add nothing to the game except an unnecessary grind that prevents A LARGE NUMBER of people from more fully enjoying the game. How can you deny the game would be better if people could just start training skills?

Also, there absolutely a race. First, you will "race" to get into a ship which you feel will be fun. Second, you will "race" to get into situations which make more ISK - such as doing L4 missions. Third, you will "race" your friends to be able to do something. You will also notice people end up setting 'mileposts' that they want to accomplish, downloading Evemon, and training a bunch of learning skills. The time spent training these learning skills is time that they could have used to become more proficient more quickly. They make the game unfriendly to new comers.
What do they add? Variety? Complexity? Admittedly only a modicum of each, but apparently even that is too much. Most importantly - Choice? Sure they add a timesink (there is no grind) - just like every other skill. Although they are unique in that they actually reduce the timesink of other skills. And they take nothing away - because no matter how many times you say it, no-one is forced to train them, nor do they prevent anyone from doing anything.


If you choose to use them in a way which makes getting to whatever it is you want slower, in the interest of long-term 'efficiency' - that's your choice. There is no race. Not even if you put 'race' in quotes. Your first and most asinine examples - "racing" into a ship and "racing" into a situation - are even missing a critical element of a race: who are you against? Most people at least mistakenly assert that you are against the other players or some imaginary potential total SP. But, being an imaginary race, I suppose it doesn't really need an opponent?

As for people who choose to race their friends, or set any other time-sensitive/skill-sensitive objective, once again that is their choice.

See what I mean about them adding choice?


If you choose to use them in a way which makes getting to your current objective faster, a request to remove them is just a whine about how long training takes. You can harp on about non-learning skills making you proficient as you go, but really, how does Racial Frigate II make you more proficient with the Tier III frigate you still can't fly? How do half the support skills you need make you more proficient with a fit you can't fit yet? They don't. And let's not even get onto pre-reqs, where you have to 'become more proficient' in things you don't even want if the thing you do want is higher up the ladder.

As you say yourself, most people break down their training into milestones - and no point between here and that milestone is of any interest, whether it is the completion of a learning skill or a non-learning skill.

And if you really really just want immediate benefits and have no plan - you can choose not to train the learning skills, to fit them in some time when you are not concerned with what you are currently training.

See what I mean about them adding choice?

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.27 21:24:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 28/05/2010 07:27:57
I wuoldnt mind if they just delete all learning skills, or at least advanced ones, and throw the SP invested in them away (and obviously increase attributes to compensate). Learning skills are just terrible game design that does not add anything to the game.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.05.27 21:28:00 - [67]
 

If it is a choice, who has chosen to not train them? The choice is when they train them rather than if they train them. That isn't really a choice. I chose to not train mining. I don't suffer a penalty compared to others because of this. I can make isk in other ways, I can buy minerals, there are other things I can do. That is a choice.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.27 21:31:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
The choice is [..] That isn't really a choice.
Contradiction. I believe you meant to say "it is not a choice I like therefore it is not a choice".

Originally by: Bagehi
I chose to not train mining. I don't suffer a penalty compared to others because of this.
You can't mine.

Lord Cath
Amarr
Gung-Ho
Posted - 2010.05.28 07:11:00 - [69]
 

for christ sake, stop trying to WoW'ify this game... Plenty of MMO's out there where you can slay boars for days on end and gain XP.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.28 07:28:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Lord Cath
for christ sake, stop trying to WoW'ify this game... Plenty of MMO's out there where you can slay boars for days on end and gain XP.

I have no idea what exactly you are trying to compare with WoW, but i have a feeling you are trying to say that boring learning skills that dont serve any purpose besides SP sink is the opposite of WoW, in which case i think eve can use some wow'ifying.

Lord Cath
Amarr
Gung-Ho
Posted - 2010.05.28 09:15:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer

you are trying to say that boring learning skills that dont serve any purpose besides SP sink is the opposite of WoW


What I'm trying to say is that EvE is harder to get into then most MMO's and a lot of people are constantly whining about everything that isnt in an arm's reach in the game... Learning skills do serve a purpose, it's not because you think theyre useless that they realy are...

Kaya Divine
Gallente
Kittens Factory
Posted - 2010.05.28 11:36:00 - [72]
 

If I may remind you that we dont discuss about should learning skills be removed or not. Or whats your personal opinion about them. This topic started as something that have in its base two blocks:
1. CCP wants to remove them
2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.

And until now, all people who didn't support are against learning skills removal, and its nice to have opinion but as I said consider theirs removal as something final...now its time to help CCP to find great solution and discuss with those two factors on your mind.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.28 11:54:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Kaya Divine
1. CCP wants to remove them
2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.
Can you link to this statement please? I'm pretty sure I've seen it, but I cannot remember where.

Lord Cath
Amarr
Gung-Ho
Posted - 2010.05.28 12:02:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Kaya Divine
If I may remind you that we dont discuss about should learning skills be removed or not. Or whats your personal opinion about them. This topic started as something that have in its base two blocks:
1. CCP wants to remove them
2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.

And until now, all people who didn't support are against learning skills removal, and its nice to have opinion but as I said consider theirs removal as something final...now its time to help CCP to find great solution and discuss with those two factors on your mind.



wait what ?

Kinda overlooked that part in your OP. They seriously want to remove them? Cant realy see any good reason right now, will give it some thought.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.05.28 12:12:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Kaya Divine

1. CCP wants to remove them
2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.

And until now, all people who didn't support are against learning skills removal, and its nice to have opinion but as I said consider theirs removal as something final...now its time to help CCP to find great solution and discuss with those two factors on your mind.



Dev blog / link / proof please or this is hearsay.

I'm not considering their removal "final" because you say it is... sorry.

GFRoSTY
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.05.28 12:55:00 - [76]
 

Supported.
I feel that the 'Learning' skills are outdated and better use of your time would be spent on actually learning a SKILL rather than learning a learning skill!


Kaya Divine
Gallente
Kittens Factory
Posted - 2010.05.28 13:10:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Kaya Divine

1. CCP wants to remove them
2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.

And until now, all people who didn't support are against learning skills removal, and its nice to have opinion but as I said consider theirs removal as something final...now its time to help CCP to find great solution and discuss with those two factors on your mind.



Dev blog / link / proof please or this is hearsay.

I'm not considering their removal "final" because you say it is... sorry.


Linkage

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.28 13:38:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Kaya Divine
Linkage
I think I've changed my mind. One of their suggestions is that new players earn the learning skills by doing things - completing epic arcs, getting X kills in faction warfare. Having the learning skills turned into an actual grind by people who apparently haven't got a clue how to play EVE in order to solve a problem which doesn't really exist would be such a fantastic achievement, I can't *not* support it.

While they say themselves they won't actually do that, I hope whatever 'solution' they decide on is equally entertaining.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.05.28 13:53:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Kaya Divine
Linkage
I think I've changed my mind. One of their suggestions is that new players earn the learning skills by doing things - completing epic arcs, getting X kills in faction warfare. Having the learning skills turned into an actual grind by people who apparently haven't got a clue how to play EVE in order to solve a problem which doesn't really exist would be such a fantastic achievement, I can't *not* support it.

While they say themselves they won't actually do that, I hope whatever 'solution' they decide on is equally entertaining.


Tying the learning skills to player kills in FW might be amusing.

Well, for about 4 minutes, until people realise how easy it would be to exploit.

Kaya Divine
Gallente
Kittens Factory
Posted - 2010.05.28 22:49:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Kaya Divine on 28/05/2010 22:53:25
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Kaya Divine
Linkage
I think I've changed my mind.

Welcome aboard.

Kaya Divine
Gallente
Kittens Factory
Posted - 2010.05.30 13:05:00 - [81]
 

Wink

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.05.30 18:42:00 - [82]
 

Interesting video. I'm glad they're officially aware of the problem, but yowzas. Really not a fan of the whole "grind" thing. So the implementation we're discussing would be:
- Set learning_bonus_sp = (learning_bonus_sp || current_sp) + sp_in_learning [increment the bonus time to account for whatever their sp in learning is]
- delete sp in learning
- set attributes to max

Seems easy enough, tbh.

-Liang

Alain Kinsella
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.05.30 23:53:00 - [83]
 

Supported, if only to have my normal +3 implants suddenly act as +5s. Wink

In regard to the side discussion of 'should Learning be first' I'll weigh in that I spent my first 1.5 days taking the base skills to 4 (the queue helped tremendously here), and then moved on to other things for awhile. This is despite urging from my friend (who got me into this) to head toward 5/5 when possible.

Of course, when I got a donation that would cover the book costs, I grabbed the four Adv versions. Cool Those, until recently, were in various stages of 3/4 (I just squared away all of those to 4, almost a year later). I have no interest in L5 on most of them, for the amount of time involved I can use it better by filling out Orca and Rorqual support skills...

Unfamed II
Caldari
NPC Corporation
Paisti Syndicate
Posted - 2010.05.31 11:10:00 - [84]
 

-b
Well, I could live without compensation too.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.31 11:23:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Kaya Divine
Welcome aboard.
You do realise that that was sarcasm, and that that video only highlights that this is only seen as a problem by people who desperately fail at EVE (devs or not)?

Arnba
Caldari
Factory of the zillion Echoes
Posted - 2010.05.31 12:27:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Arnba on 31/05/2010 12:30:45
not supported (idea of removing them at all)
but if they'd remove best idea i read about so far

Whats next? does ccp have to give away free +5 Implants?

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.05.31 15:24:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Lord Cath
Originally by: Furb Killer

you are trying to say that boring learning skills that dont serve any purpose besides SP sink is the opposite of WoW


What I'm trying to say is that EvE is harder to get into then most MMO's and a lot of people are constantly whining about everything that isnt in an arm's reach in the game... Learning skills do serve a purpose, it's not because you think theyre useless that they realy are...


Fine if it is harder to get into because it is a sandbox where you can do alot.

However when it is harder to get into because:
1. UI is a disaster.
2. Learning skills are boring and dont add anything
It isnt alright. If you like number 2, why not add that you cant train skills for first year, then it will become really hard to get into, and you like that apparently ;)

Youssef Daunch
Swedish Aerospace Inc
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2010.05.31 15:38:00 - [88]
 

Oh, yes!

Tyris Psilo
Posted - 2010.06.01 05:50:00 - [89]
 

I would like to explore this issue from a newcomers perspective, seeing as I'm a newcomer. I'm not sure how long I'll be playing-- shoot, I might not be playing in a month even. I haven't explored the game fully, and I have no clue if I want to play. Now, when I started, a friend told me about the learning skills, and being a mathematically minded person, I saw how incredibly important they are. So, I trained 1-3 in all the skills without a second thought. At this point, I've finished the tutorials and trained the requisite skills the tutorials required, and I still haven't seen what Eve is about at all. I want to go into, say, "Industry," but I quickly realize that without taking the learning skills further, I will fall behind everyone else rapidly, meaning I would be less competitive within a month. If I do take the learning skills further, I won't be able to try industry (or what-have-you) out in the first place, leaving me with the question, "why play the game in the first place, and thus train these skills at all?"

So I did what I was advised to do. I set the learning skills and Tier 2 learning skills to my desired levels and all but ignored the game for a few days. I was away from town anyway, but it's not hard to imagine at all that another person in my same situation would have simply quit the game because he/she didn't feel like spending RL money to run a game that he/she couldn't begin to play. I play games to explore, plan, and have fun. I don't play games to suffer boredom so that I might suffer less boredom later.

Quote from me to a friend to recruit her, "Yeah, if you're going to play, sign up a couple days before you are able to really sit down and play. Otherwise, you'll be stuck doing nothing while you train learning skills."

/signed a fresh out-of-the-box Newbie

Lord Cath
Amarr
Gung-Ho
Posted - 2010.06.01 06:01:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Tyris Psilo
I would like to explore this issue from a newcomers perspective, seeing as I'm a newcomer. I'm not sure how long I'll be playing-- shoot, I might not be playing in a month even. I haven't explored the game fully, and I have no clue if I want to play. Now, when I started, a friend told me about the learning skills, and being a mathematically minded person, I saw how incredibly important they are. So, I trained 1-3 in all the skills without a second thought. At this point, I've finished the tutorials and trained the requisite skills the tutorials required, and I still haven't seen what Eve is about at all. I want to go into, say, "Industry," but I quickly realize that without taking the learning skills further, I will fall behind everyone else rapidly, meaning I would be less competitive within a month. If I do take the learning skills further, I won't be able to try industry (or what-have-you) out in the first place, leaving me with the question, "why play the game in the first place, and thus train these skills at all?"

So I did what I was advised to do. I set the learning skills and Tier 2 learning skills to my desired levels and all but ignored the game for a few days. I was away from town anyway, but it's not hard to imagine at all that another person in my same situation would have simply quit the game because he/she didn't feel like spending RL money to run a game that he/she couldn't begin to play. I play games to explore, plan, and have fun. I don't play games to suffer boredom so that I might suffer less boredom later.

Quote from me to a friend to recruit her, "Yeah, if you're going to play, sign up a couple days before you are able to really sit down and play. Otherwise, you'll be stuck doing nothing while you train learning skills."

/signed a fresh out-of-the-box Newbie


not wanting to be an asshat here, but this game requires patience to be trained to at least lvl 4. The trial argument aside (which I can fully understand), after learnig skills you still have a long way to go if you wanna get the full EvE experience... here's hoping you do pull through tho, in EvE patience usualy gets rewarded.


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