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Mishikaii
Posted - 2010.11.16 17:36:00 - [691]
 

Very supported.

Learning skills add nothing to the game but a extremely frustrating period that scares people away, from personal experience.

More people, more good times for everyone involved. Eve should be about skill flying, not about skill waiting to wait some more to maybe fly something in a month or so.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.11.16 21:53:00 - [692]
 

The problem with Learning skills is idiots keep telling new players they HAVE to have them NOW. I tell new players to train them when they dont know what else to train.

Is it good that CCP wants to replace them, I cant say. It shows they at least understand the hole new and old players dug for themselves game longevitywise. I maxed every Learning skill, I invested the time and money to do it. I did it informed of the pros and cons of doing it and because I saw it as a good investment long term.

Truly, the types of players that quit over training Learning skills are the types of players that would quit anyway.

I think the problem is the stigma attached to them, not the skills themselves.

Mister Lotto
Posted - 2010.11.17 13:51:00 - [693]
 

DO THIS CCP! TAKE THIS SOLUTION!

matthiastee
Posted - 2010.11.17 18:50:00 - [694]
 


Makumba Aki
Posted - 2010.11.17 19:46:00 - [695]
 

Edited by: Makumba Aki on 17/11/2010 19:48:17
Edited by: Makumba Aki on 17/11/2010 19:47:43
Edited by: Makumba Aki on 17/11/2010 19:46:33
Originally by: Kaya Divine
Intro: Some of you are aware that CCP wants to remove those, but they are still searching for a solution which would benefit the most players. So I meditated and figured out solution. Which is easy to program and implement. And which will not make people angry.

Solution

  • 1. Add 10 points + 10% to all characters attributes


10 points is the value of maxed learning skills, 10% is a bonus to value gained by maxed Learning skill.

  • 2. Remove all learning skills.


Like they never existed.

  • 3. SP which player had been invested in Learning will be redistributed through faster learning time lets say 10000% faster.


Lets say for example you have 4m SP in learning. You will get bonus to SP accumulation with a same value. So you will not lose any SP but it would be redistributed to your current skill plan in total value which would be exactly the same as the SP value in learning.

That would of course would be different from player to player, not everyone have all learning skill maxed so its only fair to receive as much as you had invested.


Now, the question is:
Would you be totally satisfied with this change?






Bad solution since it removes an important decision from the game.

Better solution:
Give every char after subscription around 2 mil of SP at his disposal. The owner of the char can decide then whether he would rather like to fly a fancy ship emidiately or invest the skill points in the learnings (you get 5/4 for 2 mil SP).

But I bet people would still complain, since they would still have to make a decision and face the consequences.

Mishikaii
Posted - 2010.11.17 20:57:00 - [696]
 

Originally by: Makumba Aki
Edited by: Makumba Aki on 17/11/2010 19:48:17
Edited by: Makumba Aki on 17/11/2010 19:47:43
Edited by: Makumba Aki on 17/11/2010 19:46:33
Originally by: Kaya Divine
Intro: Some of you are aware that CCP wants to remove those, but they are still searching for a solution which would benefit the most players. So I meditated and figured out solution. Which is easy to program and implement. And which will not make people angry.

Solution

  • 1. Add 10 points + 10% to all characters attributes


10 points is the value of maxed learning skills, 10% is a bonus to value gained by maxed Learning skill.

  • 2. Remove all learning skills.


Like they never existed.

  • 3. SP which player had been invested in Learning will be redistributed through faster learning time lets say 10000% faster.


Lets say for example you have 4m SP in learning. You will get bonus to SP accumulation with a same value. So you will not lose any SP but it would be redistributed to your current skill plan in total value which would be exactly the same as the SP value in learning.

That would of course would be different from player to player, not everyone have all learning skill maxed so its only fair to receive as much as you had invested.


Now, the question is:
Would you be totally satisfied with this change?






Bad solution since it removes an important decision from the game.

Better solution:
Give every char after subscription around 2 mil of SP at his disposal. The owner of the char can decide then whether he would rather like to fly a fancy ship emidiately or invest the skill points in the learnings (you get 5/4 for 2 mil SP).

But I bet people would still complain, since they would still have to make a decision and face the consequences.



I like your solution, but wouldn't it give instant skilled alts for a whole variety of things? For instance a market alt, freighter alt, or even cov ops alt would all be either trained or almost trained within the free points. Combined with free trials it would give throwaway alt a whole new meaning. Not to mention insta suic ganking trials.

I think the idea is to make training faster and more accessible to new people, not provide infinite skilled alts.

Makumba Aki
Posted - 2010.11.17 22:00:00 - [697]
 

Edited by: Makumba Aki on 17/11/2010 22:03:13
Originally by: Mishikaii


I like your solution, but wouldn't it give instant skilled alts for a whole variety of things? For instance a market alt, freighter alt, or even cov ops alt would all be either trained or almost trained within the free points. Combined with free trials it would give throwaway alt a whole new meaning. Not to mention insta suic ganking trials.

I think the idea is to make training faster and more accessible to new people, not provide infinite skilled alts.


Not at all!
That why I said "Give every char after subscription around 2 mil of SP at his disposal." (on the sentece is maybe a bit f*** up :D )
So the trial would still keep its purpose, you would still train with bonus on your trial and thus have the opportunity to try different things as a new player. However, after you swith to a paid account you would reveive those 2 mil SP as a welcome gift so to say. You could still create insta skilled traders, but not for free. The only difference to how it is now is that you don't have to wait for two months or to pay for a char transfer.

However, to be honest I am happy with the system as it is right now. It is just, if they necesserily want to change the system, this would be the only viable way for me to do it. All other proposals I have read so far simply say: "Give me the learnings for free and reimburce me with the juicy SPs I have invested so far in them, so I can fly the titan sooner." Its not like the people don't like the learnings, they just don't want to "pay" for them. Wink

matthiastee
Posted - 2010.11.18 17:59:00 - [698]
 

Edited by: matthiastee on 18/11/2010 18:00:33
yeah but how many people joining the game would know about this thing after sub? none probably so they would still be stuck in this learning skill thingy where they would quit the game before they subcribed which would make your idea useless.

this topic is trying to make it so new players can enjoy the game without haveing to go through a bunch of waiting first.

Makumba Aki
Posted - 2010.11.19 00:17:00 - [699]
 

Originally by: matthiastee
Edited by: matthiastee on 18/11/2010 18:00:33
yeah but how many people joining the game would know about this thing after sub? none probably so they would still be stuck in this learning skill thingy where they would quit the game before they subcribed which would make your idea useless.

this topic is trying to make it so new players can enjoy the game without haveing to go through a bunch of waiting first.

Are you serious? How many people know that learning skills exist at all when they start?
CCP could make a big blinky pop-up which states "We will give you 2 Mil SP after subscribtion!"
Marketing isn't that complicated.

This proposal was never about new players.
It simply tries to give old players max learnings for free + some free skill points. And you can't await to get these juicy gifts. Rolling Eyes

Gallians
Posted - 2010.11.19 01:41:00 - [700]
 

Edited by: Gallians on 19/11/2010 01:48:52
Originally by: Makumba Aki
Originally by: matthiastee
Edited by: matthiastee on 18/11/2010 18:00:33
yeah but how many people joining the game would know about this thing after sub? none probably so they would still be stuck in this learning skill thingy where they would quit the game before they subcribed which would make your idea useless.

this topic is trying to make it so new players can enjoy the game without haveing to go through a bunch of waiting first.

Are you serious? How many people know that learning skills exist at all when they start?
CCP could make a big blinky pop-up which states "We will give you 2 Mil SP after subscribtion!"
Marketing isn't that complicated.

This proposal was never about new players.
It simply tries to give old players max learnings for free + some free skill points. And you can't await to get these juicy gifts. Rolling Eyes



Nice troll. Some of us actually think the learnings are **** poor design, and quite a barrier of entry to the game, and you can think so even if you put the time into getting them, trust me.

**** poor design is **** poor.

I think removing is a great idea. Free SP on registration, not so much (assumedly for every character on an account, else useless). Suddenly every plex turns into an insta skilled alt, which I'm not sure most want.


Makumba Aki
Posted - 2010.11.19 02:22:00 - [701]
 

Edited by: Makumba Aki on 19/11/2010 02:28:30
Originally by: Gallians
Edited by: Gallians on 19/11/2010 01:48:52
Originally by: Makumba Aki
Originally by: matthiastee
Edited by: matthiastee on 18/11/2010 18:00:33
yeah but how many people joining the game would know about this thing after sub? none probably so they would still be stuck in this learning skill thingy where they would quit the game before they subcribed which would make your idea useless.

this topic is trying to make it so new players can enjoy the game without haveing to go through a bunch of waiting first.

Are you serious? How many people know that learning skills exist at all when they start?
CCP could make a big blinky pop-up which states "We will give you 2 Mil SP after subscribtion!"
Marketing isn't that complicated.

This proposal was never about new players.
It simply tries to give old players max learnings for free + some free skill points. And you can't await to get these juicy gifts. Rolling Eyes



Nice troll. Some of us actually think the learnings are **** poor design, and quite a barrier of entry to the game, and you can think so even if you put the time into getting them, trust me.

**** poor design is **** poor.

I think removing is a great idea. Free SP on registration, not so much (assumedly for every character on an account, else useless). Suddenly every plex turns into an insta skilled alt, which I'm not sure most want.



Free SP on registration is a not a good idea because old players won't get any free SP.

People who really consider learnings being useless, poor design and a barrier, don't ask CCP to given them these very same skills for free. Rolling Eyes

How is it about attribute imps? They force new players to grind ISK for hours in order to buy them ASAP, since it is impossible to play eve without max skill speed. How is it then about removing them as well and to increase all attributes by 5 in order to lower the barrier? Rolling Eyes


BTW: I think CCP should just leave the learning skills the way they are.

Gallians
Posted - 2010.11.19 02:56:00 - [702]
 

Originally by: Makumba Aki
Edited by: Makumba Aki on 19/11/2010 02:28:30
Originally by: Gallians
Edited by: Gallians on 19/11/2010 01:48:52
Originally by: Makumba Aki
Originally by: matthiastee
Edited by: matthiastee on 18/11/2010 18:00:33
yeah but how many people joining the game would know about this thing after sub? none probably so they would still be stuck in this learning skill thingy where they would quit the game before they subcribed which would make your idea useless.

this topic is trying to make it so new players can enjoy the game without haveing to go through a bunch of waiting first.

Are you serious? How many people know that learning skills exist at all when they start?
CCP could make a big blinky pop-up which states "We will give you 2 Mil SP after subscribtion!"
Marketing isn't that complicated.

This proposal was never about new players.
It simply tries to give old players max learnings for free + some free skill points. And you can't await to get these juicy gifts. Rolling Eyes



Nice troll. Some of us actually think the learnings are **** poor design, and quite a barrier of entry to the game, and you can think so even if you put the time into getting them, trust me.

**** poor design is **** poor.

I think removing is a great idea. Free SP on registration, not so much (assumedly for every character on an account, else useless). Suddenly every plex turns into an insta skilled alt, which I'm not sure most want.



Free SP on registration is a not a good idea because old players won't get any free SP.

People who really consider learnings being useless, poor design and a barrier, don't ask CCP to given them these very same skills for free. Rolling Eyes

How is it about attribute imps? They force new players to grind ISK for hours in order to buy them ASAP, since it is impossible to play eve without max skill speed. How is it then about removing them as well and to increase all attributes by 5 in order to lower the barrier? Rolling Eyes


BTW: I think CCP should just leave the learning skills the way they are.


I think your reading comprehension is off, old players, who have plex, can get a lot more off instantly skilled alts for the low low cost of 300 million. An insta skilled suic ganker for a plex? SIGN ME UP.

Who would ever abuse such a thing?!

No, the poor design is the incredibly slow speed at which everything trains without them, which makes the skills a necessity in order to ever train anything at near reasonable speeds. That "reasonable" doesn't apply to high multiplier skills because they still take ******edly long, but the effect of NOT having the learnings is compounded.

Since unless you are a single purpose alt that is not going to train anything, you are virtually required to have them, they impose an onerous requirement of an insane amount of time, while not giving any tangible in game bonuses other than slightly less ******ed training time.

Implants are different in that they have all types of tangible effects and getting ISK is much faster than getting SP. I personally think attribute implants are fine. Not having 5/4 if a serious main character? certainly not.

CCP themselves agree that they are a terrible design mistake that they wish to fix, and of the proposals I have seen to do that, this is one of the best ones.

Personally I think training times across the board should be reduced for everyone, but more so for new people if CCP ever wants to get anything near reasonable suscriber numbers (which by their marketing and focus on player luring features, it would seem they do.)

TLDR: Learnings should go, your idea is still bad and open to abuse.

Cid SilverWing
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.11.19 06:03:00 - [703]
 

I simply cannot agree enough. The entire Learning tree needs to go. And all SP sunk into them by existing characters should be refunded and available to be instantly transferred into other skills. And base training speed should be increased to as if characters already had the entire Learning tree 5'ed.

Zverofaust
Gallente
Ascetic Virtues

Posted - 2010.11.19 13:56:00 - [704]
 


Xynthiar
Gallente
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.11.19 14:10:00 - [705]
 


Makumba Aki
Posted - 2010.11.19 17:26:00 - [706]
 

Originally by: Gallians

I think your reading comprehension is off, old players, who have plex, can get a lot more off instantly skilled alts for the low low cost of 300 million. An insta skilled suic ganker for a plex? SIGN ME UP.

Who would ever abuse such a thing?!


No, my reading comprehension is ok. I just don't see the problem. Or how does it change the situation compared to now? Are there now no suicide gankers? Yeh, there will be more suicide ganks! So what? That is what eve is about, dark and harsh place.
Quote:

No, the poor design is the incredibly slow speed at which everything trains without them, which makes the skills a necessity in order to ever train anything at near reasonable speeds. That "reasonable" doesn't apply to high multiplier skills because they still take ******edly long, but the effect of NOT having the learnings is compounded.

Since unless you are a single purpose alt that is not going to train anything, you are virtually required to have them, they impose an onerous requirement of an insane amount of time, while not giving any tangible in game bonuses other than slightly less ******ed training time.


So on the one hand you say "which makes the skills a necessity", and on the other hand you say "while not giving any tangible in game bonuses other than slightly less ******ed training time"

Why is a slightly less training time a necessity?

I translate:
"I am inpacient little kid and I am going to cry if I can't fly titans after 1-2 months playing."
Quote:

Implants are different in that they have all types of tangible effects and getting ISK is much faster than getting SP. I personally think attribute implants are fine.


Attribute imps have exactly the same tangible effects as the learnings do, just for isk instead of SP. Rolling Eyes
And to earn 10 mil would take a trial account about a week, and he only would get one +3 imp for it.


Mishikaii
Posted - 2010.11.19 18:37:00 - [707]
 

Originally by: Makumba Aki
Originally by: Gallians

I think your reading comprehension is off, old players, who have plex, can get a lot more off instantly skilled alts for the low low cost of 300 million. An insta skilled suic ganker for a plex? SIGN ME UP.

Who would ever abuse such a thing?!


No, my reading comprehension is ok. I just don't see the problem. Or how does it change the situation compared to now? Are there now no suicide gankers? Yeh, there will be more suicide ganks! So what? That is what eve is about, dark and harsh place.
Quote:

No, the poor design is the incredibly slow speed at which everything trains without them, which makes the skills a necessity in order to ever train anything at near reasonable speeds. That "reasonable" doesn't apply to high multiplier skills because they still take ******edly long, but the effect of NOT having the learnings is compounded.

Since unless you are a single purpose alt that is not going to train anything, you are virtually required to have them, they impose an onerous requirement of an insane amount of time, while not giving any tangible in game bonuses other than slightly less ******ed training time.


So on the one hand you say "which makes the skills a necessity", and on the other hand you say "while not giving any tangible in game bonuses other than slightly less ******ed training time"

Why is a slightly less training time a necessity?

I translate:
"I am inpacient little kid and I am going to cry if I can't fly titans after 1-2 months playing."
Quote:

Implants are different in that they have all types of tangible effects and getting ISK is much faster than getting SP. I personally think attribute implants are fine.


Attribute imps have exactly the same tangible effects as the learnings do, just for isk instead of SP. Rolling Eyes
And to earn 10 mil would take a trial account about a week, and he only would get one +3 imp for it.




Checked on that lately? Running the epic arc and the tutorial missions made me about 30 million, and I am sure I did that in much less than a week. More like a couple nights.

As a newer player the worst part of this game is waiting for the learnings to level while not gaining any benefits for my ships.

Very support removing them.

Gallians
Posted - 2010.11.19 18:43:00 - [708]
 

Don't feed the troll ""I am inpacient little kid and I am going to cry if I can't fly titans after 1-2 months playing."". I lulz'd

His post is so full of nonsensical garbage its not even funny.

TLDR: Learnings must go, people who can't spell inpatient and have terrible ideas, don't like the idea of more people playing the game and the game being more accessible.

Chrysa Narfatu
Amarr
Joint Shipbuilding Industries Ltd
Posted - 2010.11.20 02:11:00 - [709]
 

Not supported in all aspects. It is not about the 'I had to do it, so others must do it too' mentality.

I simply believe that learning skills are a purely optional part of the game. It would spoil the fun of trully building a character from scratch.

It feels as if we'd be going back to square one, when a pilot had to choose a career path and render the alpha clone useless once again, let alone the skillpoint burden.

As far as I am concerned, I trained Learning skills because I wanted to.

Zuzon
Amarr
Dysfunctional Family
Posted - 2010.11.20 03:18:00 - [710]
 


Fuyu'no Kiri
Beauvoir-Bourdieu
Posted - 2010.11.20 05:34:00 - [711]
 

I still fail to see where the issue is. Really.

As far as the "CCP stated that they'll remove it" claim goes, it all sums up to "we've had 3 designers working on it for months and it still didn't go through". So, to begin with a positive assesment: try as we may, we, as a player base, are not going to come up with anything as elaborate as this 3 people could muster, even if they spent only 2 hours a week for a mere 2 months on that particular topic.

Another statement which I really can't understand is Soundwave's "when I created my (first two) account(s), I launched the learning skills and played CS for two months".

First, this is a game, the purpose of which is (or should be) to have fun. Learning skills are not fun? Skip them. "You need them to be competitive!" you say? What do you want? To have fun or to be competitive? And what does it even mean, to "be competitive"?


Let's do a bit of math, instead, will you?

So, I'll focus on the idea that this whole skill category and it's (supposed) necessity is an impediment to rookies discovering the game. A rooky is any pilot below 1.6M SP. Your "rooky bootstrap programme" could be (lower case for base skill, upper case for advanced skill), first to get cybernetics lvl1 and +1 implants for IPWM and a +2 C, then mil mil mil mil MI MI MI pwc pwc pwc pwc PCW PCW PCW. That would take you 6 days, 6 hours and 14 minutes to reach and earn you 347.025 SP, raising your attributes by some 216%.

That means you still have a lot of your 100% speed bonus as a rooky. So much so that you can start from day 0 training concrete stuff, to get a taste of this and that, as the first skills available or required for something else are low rank, low level ones: so quickly trained that you're not penalized to get them before comitting to the learning family.

In my opinion, the only real limiting factor is not time "locally wasted" on meta-training, but isk, as the cost of proposed programme is above 24M.

Now your mates are adamant that you should delve further in boosting your attribs? Blow them a kneecap or two, then. Or at least ask them if they ever heard of some "break-even point" stuff. All base learning skills to 5 and advanced to 4 account for some further 1.87M SP, which would claim 5.5x more time than what I proposed earlier, to get you to 248% of your initial attribs --- 115% of what you get with the "4/3 bootstrap programme" --- if it didn't rocket past the "initial 1.6M happy hour".

So, before embarking on such a road, you have to work out how many SP you'll have to train on that attribute in order for the reduction on training them to equal the time spent on the meta-skill. I haven't pushed the reasonning as far as laying the final (in)equation for this, but it appears that a pair of lvl4 advanced can be paid for with a pair of lvl5 low rank (5 or below) "actual" skills. I embarked on lvl5 base myself as it shrinks my 115 week long programme to some mere 90, neural remap included.

Will I still be playing EVE by that time? If I am, I'll be happy to have spent time on maxing my attribs. If I'm not, then it won't be an issue anymore ;)

The important thing is: I understand what I get from it, and I know what I have to give for it.

Fuyu'no Kiri
Beauvoir-Bourdieu
Posted - 2010.11.20 06:46:00 - [712]
 

Edited by: Fuyu''no Kiri on 20/11/2010 06:51:05
Edited by: Fuyu''no Kiri on 20/11/2010 06:47:09
Now, let's take a look at some proposed solutions?

First, I wan't to say I'm not criticizing the fact that this issue escalated to a CSM proposal, neither do I simply want to burn down the propositions. I'm here to contribute to it: it's ideas I'm wielding, not people I'm fighting. I'm not even trying to fight ideas.

1. give away all learning skills at lvl3 to every new character and somehow adjust former ones

If absolutely everybody has it, then it's dead and useless. Simply remove it altogether.

1b. existing characters are given bonus skillpoints equal to the amount needed to train all of the learning skills to the levels now being granted to new players. While this gives existing players who have trained these skills a slight boost, it compensates for the time they spent training those skills that new characters won't have to spend

6 rank 1 lvl 3 and 5 rank 3 lvl 3 skills make up for 168k SP. Approximately two thirds of a rank 1 lvl 5. You might as well give a "slight boost" to your warp speed by flapping your hands inside your pod ;) What is 168k when you're tens of millions SP old already?


2. refund all accumulated learning skill skillpoints and skillbook expenses

This one would be tricky. What do you mean by "accumulated learning skill SP"? Just the SP allocated in the category? That wouldn't even begin to be fair.

To make me happy (and I'm really serious), you'd also have to take back all the extra SP I earned from having raised my attribs in the first place. For I didn't do it just for the sake of it, but because I could turn some profit from it. So, you wan't to take back what I invested? Please take back what I earned from it too!

That would of course raise mindboggling(*) issues, as it would be necessary to re-run my whole training queue since I first injected one of those damned meta-skill. And even further: gaining quicker access to more advanced skills gave me quicker access to other profitable things (let's say I became a refining expert much faster than a new character now will, which made more isk than I would have otherwise, etc.)

If you don't do that, then even as it may seem to relieve new players of some burden, in some mid-term run it becomes a really huge penalty on them.


3. replace learning skills with a boost to attributes, gained from having trained skills relevant of that attrib

I read that in this thread, and it appealed to me. I like the idea that making something makes you better at doing it the next time around. Not in the "knitting 300 socks will make you better at sewing smokings" sense, mind you.

But then again, in the longer run, it just further digs the gap between vets and noobs, as the former will have gained significant acceleration while the latter will not even have set speed.

I believe that there are two points that make the current system work, at least "not so badly":
a. it's capped, in an absolute fashion ;
b. it's choice based: you're free not to train them.

There are two other points that already allow new players to compete with older ones :
c. the first skills you learn are low rank, low level, so you get really really faster at doing new stuff than a seasoned opponent ;
d. team up with other noobs like you, do it cleverly, and you'll rip open any solo vet's pod like a tin can!

So I'm back to that: if you do something, then you should know why you do it. The key to succeeding in this game, I believe, is grey matter.


(*) By the way, where the hell can I buy a towel in New Eden?!

Gigaer
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.11.20 07:08:00 - [713]
 

My blog post on the subject.
http://gigaer.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/ooc-get-rid-of-learning-skills-i-say-yes

Fuyu'no Kiri
Beauvoir-Bourdieu
Posted - 2010.11.20 07:18:00 - [714]
 

Finally, let's talk a bit of real-life currency, will you?

One thing that really quickly popped up in my head after starting playing EVE, is that your monthly subscription not only pays for the mere possibility to play the game, have a few kilobytes in some of TQ-node's ram that make pixels dance on your screen, but also pays for raking in those precious skill points: no money, no skill points.

So, somewhere, I see the learning skills as some loyalty program: "if you're willing to pay some playing time for nothing(*), then we'll give you back a slight but permanent cut afterwards". If you're accounting for your SP not in time but in (terran) money, the effect is the same: it's a matter of investment.

Also, as I said in my first post here, for me the limiting factor with "rooky bootstraping" is isk. If you can gather as much as 24M in your first (say) month in the game, chances are you know other players that are willing to help you. And of course they don't do it absolutely for free. To be specific: as a CEO myself, I'll gladly provide the books, implants and explanations to any OOG friend that would join the game, just to have the pleasure to share the gaming experience, for as long as possible.

So it somehow gets down to this when I speak of it to them: "hey dude, there's this MMO i've been playing, if you join, I can make you get more for your money than you would otherwise".

That combined to the buddy program makes up, I think, an effective way for CCP to attract new players while retaining older ones (first you wan't to get your investment back, but then the longer you've been toying with anything, the more you'll want to toy with it again), all at the same time somehow cementing the social aspects of the game.

Now if you'll excuse me, I should have restarted my extractors long ago ;)


(*) in terms of character development, that is

ID102034234
Posted - 2010.11.20 10:04:00 - [715]
 

Edited by: ID102034234 on 20/11/2010 14:36:07
I have all Learnings at Level 5, which took me 116 days salvaging in a Catalyst, begging my Corpmate to allow me cleaning his crap after him.

That said, still the most adorable solution in my opinion is to:

1. remove all Learning Skills

2. give all characters 50 more attributepoints (as the Learnings did)

3. give all attributes 10% bonus the same way as Learning did

4. reimburse the skillpoints spent for learningskills (how much ever the player already spent)


The above reflects my opinion that there is a good reason to train all learnings to V, that I do not follow the "I-suffered-so-should-they" mentaly and ergo think that new players should be having it easier in the beginning.


This way:

new players can enjoy the game earlier and hopefully stay playing the game

old players who did do the learnings do not have penalty

and most important:

old players who did not do the learnings would have been punished having a slower training-time untill then (which they should, as the gamemechanics were there, and if they learned the skills now they equally would never catch up with me)

ergo: no reimbursment of training-time on other skills (NO NO NO!)


This way we have a balance between "good for new players" and "bad for old players". I cannot count the new souls that left EVE after the trial periode, because everyone was saying "learn the learnings" (which you really should right now!)


BUT:

one thing is missing here: what about the time i spent my money on the learnings?! 116 days worth of skilling something that is ditched? that's almost as much as 3 PLEXES (or 45€ here in Europe)!!

So players who understood the gamemechanics and did the learnings, are punished by paying more REAL money than players who did not?! NO WAY!!

5. add the time spent on learnings to the account subsription OR give me 3 plexes or reimburse enough skillpoints to cover the 116 days I have paid for nothing in the past (in EVE it's skillpints for money, just as my pre-poster said)


Now I do not believe CCP will have point 5 added to THEIR list (IF NOT, DON'T SCREW WITH LEARNINGS), but perhaps they manage to surprise me.

Edit:

I also vote for the removing of attribute enhancers (implants) as I think everything should be equal to everybody! But I do not have an opinion about if these five points each should be replced by a 5 point bonus each or if they just should be left away, without any replacement... But I am curious to learn about your opinions.
If my proposal was implemented, should the possible implant stat bonus be replaced or not?

SheoFapped
Posted - 2010.11.20 14:45:00 - [716]
 

Supported! Also been waiting for this. x3

Fuyu'no Kiri
Beauvoir-Bourdieu
Posted - 2010.11.20 17:35:00 - [717]
 

Originally by: ID102034234
I cannot count the new souls that left EVE after the trial periode, because everyone was saying "learn the learnings"


I never thought that "I don't have a figure but, believe me, it's big!" was proof of anything ;-P

Otoh, what lead those "souls" to leave? Your words are "because everyone was saying [do that]". So maybe the driving force behind their defection is not so much the actual game mechanics as the kind of social pressure that's been built upon it.

When I go to my local sandbox to build a sand-made castle, I don't bow to those who were there before me saying that I can't make it a tetrahedron and that it has to be a square.

I don't know if the point I make is more accurate than anything else (I never saw any one leave EVE after their trial period... maybe mainly because I've been here only 2 months myself ^^ ). I just bring in another perspective.


Quote:
one thing is missing here: what about the time i spent my money on the learnings?! 116 days worth of skilling something that is ditched? that's almost as much as 3 PLEXES (or 45€ here in Europe)!!

So players who understood the gamemechanics and did the learnings, are punished by paying more REAL money than players who did not?! NO WAY!!

5. add the time spent on learnings to the account subsription OR give me 3 plexes or reimburse enough skillpoints to cover the 116 days I have paid for nothing in the past


That's a devilishly good point you make there, but then again it comes with so much fur... ;)

You spent 116 days on those skills. It's more like 58€, but ok. Then what about players who learned part of their learning skills while under rooky-boost vs those who did it all at normal pace? What about those who sped up their meta-learning with implants vs those who had none?

Quote:
I also vote for the removing of attribute enhancers (implants) as I think everything should be equal to everybody!


By pushing in that direction, you end up removing the whole skill mechanics, don't you think? If you wan't a game where everything is equal to everybody, you can no more play even chess, go, or tic tac toe!

And in the contrary, I believe that as long as game mechanics are not too deeply messed up with, they precisely are what insures some kind of fairness --- nobody wants actual full on equality, I hope, do they? ;)

Quote:
If my proposal was implemented, should the possible implant stat bonus be replaced or not?


I begin to wonder if we're not looking too close up at this case. Maybe any endeavour at reforming the meta-skills should be done through a complete overhaul of the training system.

However deep you're going to try and apply some leverage though, do keep in mind this famous quote from Niccolò Macchiavelli: "E debbasi considerare come non è cosa più difficile a trattare, né più dubia a riuscire, né più pericolosa a maneggiare, che farsi capo ad introdurre nuovi ordini. Perché lo introduttore ha per nimici tutti quelli che delli ordini vecchi fanno bene, et ha tepidi defensori tutti quelli che delli ordini nuovi farebbono bene."

After a time, you'll overcome the pessimistic look of it ;)

MyNameIs Max
H A V O C
Posted - 2010.11.20 18:07:00 - [718]
 

Supported.

Makumba Aki
Posted - 2010.11.21 14:34:00 - [719]
 

Originally by: ID102034234

I cannot count the new souls that left EVE after the trial periode, because everyone was saying "learn the learnings" (which you really should right now!)


1. It is just stupid to tell new players that they have to max out their learnings ASAP. I have mine on 5/4 and am totally happy with that, many people have even 4/4 or 4/3 and are happy. Especially because you need to play for more than 3 years to make this investment worth it.

2. If someone leaves eve because of the learnings, he would probably leave eve anway. Eve is not for unpatient people who want instant gratification. Eve gratificates you with delay. And this is true not only for learnings but for every skill in eve. The longer you play, the longer it takes you train certain skills (e.g. BS V). Even if everybody would get the learnings instantly for free, it would still take people 3 months till they can fly a battleship properly and would be thus able to do the big money. They would still have to spend a month flying small and unspectacular frigates. They would still have to read tons of tutorials and fitting guides.

So I still see no point in removing the learnings, besides that some old players would get some juicy skill points for free.

Merijin
Posted - 2010.11.24 16:25:00 - [720]
 

i support this as well.
Eve need new players.


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