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Viribus
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
Posted - 2010.09.25 02:19:00 - [631]
 

Loling at all the fossils in here with 3-4 accounts saying this will somehow turn the EVE into WoW.

Being free from any defined career path is one of the main things that separate EVE from lesser MMOs. Being able to compete with far older and more experienced characters is another.

Learning skills and attributes in general encourage specialization and have led to our current situation of having every min-maxing grognard in EVE thinking it necessary to have a zillion accounts to experience every nuance EVE has to offer.

Furthermore, learning skills only serve to broaden the already massive rift between old and new players, who have no hope of catching up anyway, regardless of learning skills.

Specialization is for insects. Learning skills run against the spirit of eve.

Conal Orion
Posted - 2010.09.25 03:33:00 - [632]
 

Part 1 of 2.

There have been several threads regarding Learning Skills. Most have included some very good arguments both for their removal and for their being left in the game.

This post does not concern itself with either opinion camp. It is a consideration of the following:

If CCP believes that the 'potential new player perception' of the Learning Skills mechanic discourages new players, and if CCP wishes to address that perception directly, here is a possible method. This method focuses on the actual problem. The problem is NOT the Learning Skill system. The problem is the waiting time that new players perceive is necessary to become competent players.

I assign no "right" or "wrong" to the perception. The purpose of this post is not to judge, but to suggest a solution. The solution is called "Taking them out, by leaving them in".

Premises, based upon previous threads and from reading CCP Dev blogs about resource allocation:

(1) The method should not involve a huge commitment of programmer resources. CCP has already indicated that they have many teams working on many other items. Therefore, it should involve existing mechanics and tech, as much as possible.

(2) The method should not reduce player choice or force players into a "cookie cutter" or "one way to win" mode.

(3) New players should be encouraged to become knowledgable about skill choices before they have invested a huge amount of time or skillpoints.

(4) Simple removal of the Learning Skill system might be considered by many players of longtime duration to have a high impact on the benefits that they accrued by investing time and skill points in the old system. New players should not just get something "for free" that older ones did not.

Suggestion, if CCP is considering doing this at all:

(1) On the inception date of the new "patch", all players currently playing EVE online will receive a device capable of adding skill points (not time, but points) to skills. CCP already has such a device as evidenced by the 100 000 SP "skill stick". The amount will be discussed below. it is up to the CSM and CCP to decide whether this will be one stick per account, or one stick per trained character on the account.

(2) Starting immediately after this event, any new character in EVE that "graduates" from the full set of instructional tutorials put in place by CCP, will then receive an identical "skill stick". The hope is that experiencing all of the tutorials will at least give completely new players some ideas of the very many possibilities for careers, income and entertainment in EVE. There are already "graduation" flags in the game, so this should not be hard to flag either. A new tutorial, explaining the significance of the Learning Skills, is recommended.

(3) The current Learning Skill system will be left in place exactly as it is.

The "free" skill point amount is suggested to be around 3 000 000 (3 million) SP. The player is still completely free as to how and where the points are spent. The choice will then be: whether to make an immediate entry into one or more skill paths, or whether to spend some or all of the points on Learning Skills. The decisions and the potential for "right" or "wrong" choices will still be there. But for those new players that feel that they do not wish to lag behind over the long term, they may make the decision to favour Learning Skills instead of immediate gain. Or, they may decide to favour immediate gain instead, in one quick decision.

(Continued in Part 2.)

Conal Orion
Posted - 2010.09.25 03:36:00 - [633]
 

Edited by: Conal Orion on 25/09/2010 03:38:57
Part 2 of 2.

In other words, this suggestion does not change the fundamental game mechanic at all, but removes the initial "play time lag"-- if, and only if, the player wishes to take learning skills.

Rationale: 3 000 000 SP is not enough to "max out" all the Learning Skills, but it is enough to complete a large portion of them. The possible outcomes will then be:

(1) Existing player with maximum learning skills: 3 000 000 SP to spend on current plan or "off-plan" skills.

(2) Existing player with some, but not all Learning skills. Apportion the points as above, or use some to further your Learning Skills, if you now think that is worthwhile.

(3) Existing player with no Learning Skills, or new player with none: decide if you wish to increase your long term learning rate, or have a fair number of immediately useful skills, or a combination of the two-- just like everyone else had to decide before.

There is, of course, still a "negative impact" for people that maximized their Learning Skills early on-- 3 000 000 SP are not as impressive if you already have 60 000 000, whereas they seem like a gift of the Aesir if you have very few SP. However, it should be noted that the "younger" folks still have exactly the same conundrum as the "older" ones did. They can get into that shiny ship and maybe have a couple of income skills, or they can get the learning out of the way, but not have the instant gratification.

At that point, it becomes a choice, not whether or not to play EVE, but how to play it. The entry barrier is gone, but not the decision.

This suggestion could be tweaked and massaged a number of ways (including throwing it out entirely), but if there actually is a problem with a "Learning Skills Barrier", then it is my hope that this suggestion addresses the problem without being unduly hurtful to any particular camp in the game, either the "haves" or the "have-nots".

It is not my intent to preach or to be hurtful, but simply to suggest what I hope is a "clean" and simple method, if CCP is actually considering the change. If they are not, I have wasted my time and, more sadly, yours, reader-- in which case, sorry.

Frakir Shedimbirut
Posted - 2010.09.29 12:10:00 - [634]
 

Why not give the new players the learning skills pre-trained to level 4. This should give enough training speed to make the starting easy, but not remove the question 'Should I train a learning skill to L5 and gain benefits in the future, or should I go with a more immediate skill?'.
Also, the older players, who already trained them the hard way should receive the equivalent SP back (+a little bonus? [optional]) and the ISK for the advanced books (which might not matter for a 2 year old char, but will make a difference for a 3 months old one).

Also, not supporting the original proposition, but the need to do something about the Learning Skills.

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.09.29 16:46:00 - [635]
 

Originally by: Frakir Shedimbirut
Why not give the new players the learning skills pre-trained to level 4. This should give enough training speed to make the starting easy, but not remove the question 'Should I train a learning skill to L5 and gain benefits in the future, or should I go with a more immediate skill?'.
Also, the older players, who already trained them the hard way should receive the equivalent SP back (+a little bonus? [optional]) and the ISK for the advanced books (which might not matter for a 2 year old char, but will make a difference for a 3 months old one).

Also, not supporting the original proposition, but the need to do something about the Learning Skills.


Very sensible. Quite simply the option that will anger the least amount of people.

Atigone
Posted - 2010.09.30 13:04:00 - [636]
 

I think it was a good idea to implement them but for new players it is surely better when they start with learnings at lv4 so that they can conzentrate on there playing style.

sry for my poor english

Wen Jaibao
Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2010.10.03 19:04:00 - [637]
 

Originally by: Lord Valian
Yes CCP please remove the learning skills ASAP. Its a complete insanity that you have to spend a month training a skill which gives you no real gain except if you plan your skills years ahead.

I have 2 Mil SP in Learning, and everytime I look at them I rage hard due to the time spent on training sh*t when I could have trained something fun. I spent months training learning skills w/o actually playing, cause I felt I had to in order to be able to enjoy the game. GOD. Just remove the skills so no one else has to suffer through the same horrible experience as I did when I first started this game. Please hurry up too.


QFT

Zurrk
Posted - 2010.10.04 17:54:00 - [638]
 

Let CCP concentrate on far more important issues, the learning skills have been in play since the start. Leave it alone.

Sanche Tehkeli
Gallente
Bionesis Technologies
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.10.05 08:29:00 - [639]
 

Against this proposal.

Cupio Mortem
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.10.10 08:37:00 - [640]
 

Originally by: Lord Valian
Yes CCP please remove the learning skills ASAP. Its a complete insanity that you have to spend a month training a skill which gives you no real gain except if you plan your skills years ahead.

I have 2 Mil SP in Learning, and everytime I look at them I rage hard due to the time spent on training sh*t when I could have trained something fun. I spent months training learning skills w/o actually playing, cause I felt I had to in order to be able to enjoy the game. GOD. Just remove the skills so no one else has to suffer through the same horrible experience as I did when I first started this game. Please hurry up too.


QFT again...plus learning skills kept 2 of my friends from starting to play Eve entirely...dropping learning skills will make me less lonely online yo!

D Lysergic
Posted - 2010.10.15 23:45:00 - [641]
 


Fournone
Posted - 2010.10.16 00:29:00 - [642]
 

Edited by: Fournone on 16/10/2010 00:32:56
On the fence whether CCP should remove learning skills or not, but I would accept this as an alternative to them if I had to choose.

P.S. I do have many many skill points into learning, all basic to 5 and all adv to 4. You won't beleive how long this took to get! It was almost as bad as training for hulk! I feel that i wasted too much time in learning skills, yet I do feel that (hopefully) it will pay off.

Running missions
Posted - 2010.10.16 00:58:00 - [643]
 

this would help new players out, when people tell them, train learning skills for your first month and a half they usually quit or dont do it lol

Lex Starwalker
Amarr
Lone Star Exploration
Posted - 2010.10.16 05:14:00 - [644]
 

As a new player who took the time to get almost all the learning skills to 5, I don't think there's anything wrong with them. They don't need to be "fixed". That said, if CCP does decide to remove them, this idea is better than the others I've seen.

Davelantor
Caldari
The Resistance Movement

Posted - 2010.10.16 07:25:00 - [645]
 

I am davelantor and I approve of this message.

This is something of a hot patch thing ... can be VERY easily implemented.
But with the new system to have free SP to distribute around etc. .. this can even be MORE EASILY implemented.
Just delete all the learning skills, and give the player the attributes. but also give them the SP spent.
That way, everybody is happy !!!

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.10.16 10:54:00 - [646]
 

Originally by: Davelantor
That way, everybody is happy !!!


No. Everyone would not be happy. CCP are aware that removing learning skills would anger alot of people. I did suggest that it would anger the least amount of people if the learning skills were given away.


http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1391758

helmut cheddar
Posted - 2010.10.16 23:46:00 - [647]
 


ShadowZoor
GK inc.
Posted - 2010.10.17 21:58:00 - [648]
 

good solution that gives new players more time to try out other things like ship races/industry over boring training time.

Maz3r Rakum
Gallente
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2010.10.18 01:20:00 - [649]
 


Philip Ogtaulmolfi
Milking Interstellar Incorporated.
Posted - 2010.10.20 11:05:00 - [650]
 

Not supported.

If you want to be inneficient by studying them, your decission.

Samanta Susek
Posted - 2010.10.20 20:53:00 - [651]
 

Even that i made those skills, I think that they should be taken away and basic levels of attributes should be risen(the ones that cannot be remapped).
Then maybe good solution would be to just remove advanced learning skills and leave only basic ones.
Why should they be removed? Because when you start game, and everyone tells you to train learning skills, and not to start playing is really annoying.
Many people will think why they should play game in which you need to spend first few days just to train learning skills?
Game should be fun, not hard work, and I don't think many people thinks that doing nothing just to profit in future is fun.
Sure it is part of this game, but it is not really funny to do.
But if removed, those skill points should be given back in quicker training speed for currentSP+cutLearningSP(for ppl still under 1.6mln SP just cut their SP by learning skills cut, and change bonus boost to 100%*((learningSP/1.6mln)+1) so they will reach 1.6mln sp in same time) like now it is 1.6mln 100% boost. Ofcourse there can be some bonuses for speed just for the thinking of just loosing those learning times in past, but it was like it was and if needs changes, let it change(and be happy you can just play and not learning :p)
So basically: remove learning, make stats better and extend bonus boost

Biocross
Posted - 2010.10.21 01:20:00 - [652]
 

Strongly support. Learnings are an anachronism that should go.

ICantSeeMan
Posted - 2010.10.21 14:21:00 - [653]
 

Supported. This is my 2nd char in EVE after a LOOONG break. So It's stuck in a station doing Learning and Cybernetics skills for 3 weeks.

Thanks.

Makumba Aki
Posted - 2010.10.23 12:14:00 - [654]
 

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Solution looking for a problem.

Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.

Not supported.


This!

Some people just want to get some SP so they can fly their Titan sooner...

Not Supported!!!

Velan Wolf
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.23 12:41:00 - [655]
 

Not supported.

While I understand the redundant nature of this skill set, they provide a valid mechanic to the over all game by providing both a path for more specialization in a specific area and ambiguity to how many skill points any one character might have.

JcJet
Caldari
Pretenders Inc
W-Space
Posted - 2010.10.23 16:43:00 - [656]
 

For players(lime me) who have their learnings maxed it's very small difference.
But for those who have something like 4-3 for few years it's not fair - they wasted so much SP arleady just because of laziness and now every noob will not loose SP because of this.
Well, i think such people doesn't care much about their SP anyway...

Test McTesting
Posted - 2010.10.24 17:42:00 - [657]
 

Edited by: Test McTesting on 24/10/2010 17:49:40
To those who claim that you don't "have" to train learning skills, that instead of min/maxing, you should just have "fun".

I would respond that you don't "have" to fit your ships correctly, that you can just undock in a fail fit and let me pop you, and just have "fun".

If you are the type of person who would rather win a pvp encounter than lose, and you plan on playing EVE longer than 6 months, you MUST train your learning skills first. To do otherwise is as stupid as getting into a fight with a failfit.

Get rid of training skills, and put the SP spent into a pool you can assign to other skills.

Tactical Miner
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.24 18:09:00 - [658]
 

I agree.

Do not forget that new players receive a 100% bonus to training up to 1.5 mil SP.

If you calculate a compensation for older players to spend points, then this should be taken into account also. Most of us used this bonus to ramp up learning skills. This means that I lost out on faster leaning of fun stuff.
3 mil SP for the learning tree and 1.5 mil was at 100% bonus. Then the compensation should be

3.75 mil SP to spend on whatever we want, 5 mil if you feel generous for the cost of the advanced books.
3 mil SP for new players, and remove the 100% bonus.

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2010.10.31 22:25:00 - [659]
 

Seriously, they need to get rid of the effing learning skills already.

Amanda Eidolo
The Python Cartel.
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2010.11.01 01:19:00 - [660]
 

NOT SUPPORTED.



HORRIBLE IDEAS, LEAVE LEARNING SKILLS IN JUST AS THEY ARE, IF PEOPLE CAN'T HANDLE IT EVE IS NOT FOR THEM

NOBODY FORCES YOU TO INVEST TIME IN LEARNING SKILLS TO 5/5 JUST LIKE NOBODY FORCES YOU TO TRAIN RACIAL CRUISER TO 5

OF COURSE IF YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT AND WANT TO GET THE MOST OUT OF YOUR CHARACTER THEN AT SOME POINT YOU WILL SPEND THE TIME AND DO IT

THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME HIDDEN IMPLICATION IN ALL THIS THAT LEARNING SKILLS NEED TO BE TRAINED TO 5/5 AS SOON AS A CHARACTER IS CREATED WHILE DOING NOTHING ELSE BUT THAT

WHICH IS SO DUMB IT'S NOT FUNNY, THAT IS SUPREMELY FLAWED LOGIC AND I FIND IT REPREHENSIBLE

I SEE THIS THREAD, A MICROTRANSACTIONS THREAD AND A PLEX FOR REMAP THREAD ON THE FIRST PAGE ALONE, WTF IS THIS CANCER CCP? DO YOU THINK I HAVE SPENT THOUSANDS OF HOURS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON THIS GAME OVER THE YEARS BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS SUBPAR AND DIDN'T LIKE THE WAY IT WORKED?

GIVE IT A REST YOU JOKERS HA HA HA HA HA


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