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Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.16 00:05:00 - [601]
 

Originally by: Ultim8Evil
Also, this thread is approaching 4 months old and the the CSM submission is 2 months old and still has "TBA" under the Meeting Minutes.


That's sort of an obsolete item in CSM proposal pages, since typically these days we just publish the raw meeting notes. If you scroll down to the bottom of the page, you'll see it passed 5/4 -- and is in the "In Process" category.

Koketsu
Posted - 2010.09.17 14:25:00 - [602]
 

supported, provided I get the 13.5 million or so skill points(3 accountsVery Happy ) I've spent on them back one way or another, and I really don't care if they just give it to me outright, or just increase the training speed until the difference is made up.
how soon is this likely to actually happen?

Anidis
Posted - 2010.09.18 14:40:00 - [603]
 

Originally by: Newbee
NOT supporting... there are people ingame that had to wait and proof patience ( what is a big part about eve in general from my point of view ) to train them all up to level 5 ... it would be really unfair to those who did that and no just reassigning the SP to other skills is NOT a solution for this for one good reason... some people trained them to level 5 to have a bonus in long term... other did NOT train them up but other skills instead and will now recieve the same bonus??? ... these are the wishes of people that just dont have the patience to wait training skills...

--> NO plz DONT do this


quote for the truth. Would be a bad day. this would not be the end.
And this game is getting easier and easier. I mean they have a training boost until 1,6m sp. and if they don't want to train learnings they don't have to.
Isn't it easy enough? Once eve gamer were proud that eve is complex. please don't destroy it.

Stromfresser
Posted - 2010.09.19 03:19:00 - [604]
 

Originally by: Koketsu

how soon is this likely to actually happen?


This will hopefully never happen! Please don't do it... be fair to the players that did / do spend the time on training those "useless" skills! No really no please do NOTExclamation

Just reimburse someone with other skills is not an option for me that i accept! Grow up and show patience people seriously...

CutsLawn
Posted - 2010.09.19 03:22:00 - [605]
 

Supported, work this out ccp!

Dian Rasd
Deep Core Mining Inc.

Posted - 2010.09.19 15:35:00 - [606]
 

Supported.

Just make it go away, man.

Haiden Po
Posted - 2010.09.19 17:07:00 - [607]
 

Not supported.

An alternative:

Make the acquisition of learning skills passive.

They climb to level 5 a little bit at a time while you train other skills.

If you are training a skill that uses perception and memory-then while you stay in those types of skills your perception and memory increases.

El Mauru
Amarr
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.09.19 17:47:00 - [608]
 

learning skills are pretty silly

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2010.09.19 18:04:00 - [609]
 

Not supported. I like learning skills. It should have more of them to make long-term plans of a character's skills more interesting.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.09.19 18:30:00 - [610]
 

Edited by: Rip Minner on 19/09/2010 18:34:33
I dont want them removed. But the fact that CCP as let CSM put it in the "In Process" on the mins and the fact that they showed a real tool for leting players place skill points were they wish. Makes be belive that its realy in the In Process and CCP is for real this time. As much as I hate thinking about that I will post how I would like it to go down.

1. Add 10 points + 10% to all characters attributes


10 points is the value of maxed learning skills, 10% is a bonus to value gained by maxed Learning skill.


2. Remove all learning skills.


Like they never existed.


3. SP which player had been invested in Learning skills will probly be be given back to the player just like they did before with the server down. And they will probly give you all SP's in all Learning skills form all 3 toons but I think the tool is limited in that if you have max learning skills on all 3 toons thats 15mil+ sp's that all 15mil + sp's will be giving to the toon with the most skill points. I think its becouse the tool is limited to giving it to only one toon on the account and the main toon is normly the one with the most sp's so thats why. Thats just what I belive by want was seen of the tool before.

My main accout is just like that all 3 toons have max learning skills and +5 implants for fast learning. Thats 16,128,000 sp's. going to my main toon. Can we say instant Cap Pilot lolz.

This is how I look at 16mil sp's as 16mons worth of training time. At max learning and +5 implants I train over 1mil sp's each month. My main toon will jump ahead 16mons worth of training time. So this mite not be all that bad and it will make is super easy to train my alt toons on my other account. As before I always spent the first 3-4 mons training first for +5 implants and then max learning skills now I can just train for +5 implants and jump right to what I want my alt to be doing.

Lord Valian
Vanguard Frontiers
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.09.20 01:00:00 - [611]
 

Yes CCP please remove the learning skills ASAP. Its a complete insanity that you have to spend a month training a skill which gives you no real gain except if you plan your skills years ahead.

I have 2 Mil SP in Learning, and everytime I look at them I rage hard due to the time spent on training sh*t when I could have trained something fun. I spent months training learning skills w/o actually playing, cause I felt I had to in order to be able to enjoy the game. GOD. Just remove the skills so no one else has to suffer through the same horrible experience as I did when I first started this game. Please hurry up too.

Tessa light
Posted - 2010.09.20 10:56:00 - [612]
 

Not Supported! Learning Skills are fine as they are...

Azmith
Caldari
New-Roots
Posted - 2010.09.20 11:00:00 - [613]
 

Seriously do not do this... just think about the future...

What comes next... ???

--> reduce the rank of Capital ships to rank 5 and Advanced Spaceship Command down to rank 2 ...

and everything because people dont show patience...

Theel Maas
The Praxis Initiative
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2010.09.20 21:46:00 - [614]
 

Learning skills do more harm than good. Out with them.

zcar300
Gallente
Posted - 2010.09.20 23:11:00 - [615]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin
Edited by: De''Veldrin on 25/05/2010 15:49:58
I've weighed in n the learning skills argument before, and I'm still on the same side now. There's nothing wrong with learning skills.

What needs to be changed is people's perception of their neccessity, but that would require changing the basic human nature of min/maxing in games where possible.

So I will simply say what I have always said:

You do not NEED to train learning skills, not even to be competitive, especially in the short term.

Let's face it, if two characters are facing off against each other in combat and they both have a total of 5 million Skill Points in the points relevant to that particular fight, does it really matter how long it took them to accumulate those skill points? Of course not - what will matter is how the points are applied - IOW, the player's skill at effectively using those points to reach the desired outcome. I would say that, if anything, the character that took longer getting there has an adavantage, because he has had more of an opportunity to hone the skills required to effectively apply those points.

What learning skills do is allow for a margin of error. They allow your opponent to mis calculate, instead of being able to look at a character and go "Oh he's six months old, he has exactly X skill points". You can still do that, but there's a wider margin of error because you're not sure how much learning he has applied, which shifts the total up or down.

Not supported.


Leave learning skills the way they are

lady cilia
Caldari
Caldari Advanced Laboratory
Posted - 2010.09.22 16:59:00 - [616]
 

NOT SUPPORTED.

Learning skills are fine. You have to spend some time to get something back. If you don't want to train it, it is your loss if you play this game for a longer time.

And the reason "new players will stay with a higher chance" is a bad reason, cause you have no proof.
Even if they stay, what will happen to them? They could think, hey EVE is an easy game, i get what i want.

EVE is NOT an easy game. Think one GM wrote it years ago: EVE is a dark harsh place.

It is easier for noobs at the beginning. They have the skill boost until 1.6 m sp and they can use neural remap two times.

Now you want to change learning skills. what is next? rank 12 skills? Leadershipskills?

Please CCP do NOT change it.


Grammador
Amarr
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.22 23:48:00 - [617]
 

I realize that the votes have been cast and the decision appears to be made. However, I have one question. And I beleive it to be a rather impotant question at that. Will redistribution of SP be limited Toon Specific, or will this be account based in which the account is given any learning SP from any of the 1-3 Toons on the account?

IF the learning skills go away, and CCP gives us up to the 5,376,000 skill points to redistribute as we feel fit, AND ITS TOON SPECIFIC, I think that is fair and I am sure that anyone out there that has learned the full 5,376,000 skill points in learning can find a nice home for them.

HOWEVER, If this will not be TOON SPECIFIC, and all Learning SP can be distributed from all three toons on the account to any ONE toon on the account, I have a major issue with that, as up to 16,128,000 SP can be diverted from three toons on the account to make one supertoon.

IF that is how the mechanic of redistribution will work, please let me know and run out to the Character Bazaar, and start bidding on characters that have nothing but learning SP maxed out.

Seriously, all sarcasim aside, I would like to know how this would be implemented. Toon Specific = Good; we still keep every SP that we have earned. Account based = NOT GOOD, go back to the drawing board.

MAKE WAR. . . Save the love for downtime / Grammador

Sooche Mo'Freed
Posted - 2010.09.23 00:03:00 - [618]
 

Not Supported. This will not help player retention. Quite the opposite.

No the decision has not been made. The only decision that was made was that the csm should approach CCP about it.

VC General
Caldari
No Baals Inc
Posted - 2010.09.23 05:03:00 - [619]
 

Yeah, I don't see how removing learning skills and attribute implants is any different or better than what I proposed, which is scrapping attributes completely. If you get rid of those things, we'll be down to 6 numbers and remaps. That makes it nothing more than a system to discourage players from training skills in a more balanced manner, instead of training similar skills in year long blocks for min/maxing purposes.

Telling a new player they have to train 2 months of learning skills to get the best results, isn't that much different than telling them after those 2 months are over, they then need to train 6 months of int/mem fitting skills they don't need yet, in order to save that 2nd remap purely for ship and weapons training.

Serenity Goru
Caldari
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2010.09.23 05:13:00 - [620]
 


Learning skills are an admitted bad idea. Burn them with fire and help retain more new players.

Sepheir Sepheron
Caldari
1st Grave
Posted - 2010.09.23 05:14:00 - [621]
 

I would be 100% satisfied, because I could get my friends to play without using most of their trial not doing anything.

DALLAM
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.09.23 19:13:00 - [622]
 

Edited by: DALLAM on 23/09/2010 19:18:30
Edited by: DALLAM on 23/09/2010 19:18:02
It does take away from the complexity. But is the complexity there for a reason? Most games have the reason that behind training your skill is the foundation of attributes, as you know, such as intelligence, dexterity, etc. But those attributes don't allow you to train faster; rather, they allow you to perform your job my efficiently.

That's not the case with learning skills, which only allow you to train skill points faster. That may have been the only thing that wasn't really thought out in this brilliant game, when implemented. An even larger problem, as mentioned in the original information, is that it makes getting people to stay with the game much harder. It already has a huge learning curve.

This is what I propose as a solution: A Modifier Level 5 Learning Level. Cut the max learning level to level 4, which would give the player the same maximum training speed as level 5. The last level (level 5) gives the player a 3% increase in whatever attribute is used for a particular job. For instance, if a primary attribute on a particular weapon is Intelligence, then you would get a 3% increase in damage for having Intelligence at level 5. The secondary attribute would add another 2%--if it were level 5 also--for a total modifier of 5%. And in order to make it something that would entice newer players to strive for w/o making the game unnecessarily hard in the beginning, is to double or triple the training time of that last level from where it is now. That way you have maximum training speed after level 4, and you don't have to train the modifier level until you are further into game play, while that last modifier level takes a really long time to train, and would be considered an elite skill for advanced players.

Xorv
Posted - 2010.09.23 20:00:00 - [623]
 

I'm all for a complex skill system that makes a player have to really think, plan, and make difficult choices, but the current Learning skills do NOT do this. So, not exactly convincing rationale for keeping Learnign Skills as they are.

Want a genuinely complex, interesting, and fun skill system... Make it have real specialization that can't be overcome with time and accumulation of more skill points. In order to be the best at X your going to have to sacrifice being suboptimal in either Y or Z. Tie the ability to use some skills to faction standings, maybe for a few even regional sovereignty.

Learning skills as they are now are nothing more than a meaningless grind that new players if they're interested in taking the optimal path (most MMO gamers) are forced to train.

Remove Them!

Torrent Talon
Minmatar
Hunter's Elite
Waterboard
Posted - 2010.09.23 21:32:00 - [624]
 

Edited by: Torrent Talon on 24/09/2010 06:25:19
Edited by: Torrent Talon on 24/09/2010 06:25:09
Edited by: Torrent Talon on 24/09/2010 06:19:27
Originally by: Newbee
NOT supporting... there are people ingame that had to wait and proof patience ( what is a big part about eve in general from my point of view ) to train them all up to level 5 ... it would be really unfair to those who did that and no just reassigning the SP to other skills is NOT a solution for this for one good reason... some people trained them to level 5 to have a bonus in long term... other did NOT train them up but other skills instead and will now recieve the same bonus??? ... these are the wishes of people that just dont have the patience to wait training skills...

--> NO plz DONT do this


ok,please i thought people in eve had common sense. Just think about it, if CCP were to remove learning skills they would not give all people a certain amount of SP they will implement a set of maybe up to 100 scripts to tally APIs that have a certain amount of SP in the learning skills category and refund that amount of SP to the characters that did train these and none to people who didn't. so it's basically win, win for people that did and lose, lose for people that didn't.
That being said i am all in favour of removing learning skills since i trainede them and i would get my SP back so meh ******s can think they won't get is back and say not supported but for me, SUPPORTED

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.24 00:56:00 - [625]
 

Originally by: Grammador
I realize that the votes have been cast and the decision appears to be made. However, I have one question. And I beleive it to be a rather impotant question at that. Will redistribution of SP be limited Toon Specific, or will this be account based in which the account is given any learning SP from any of the 1-3 Toons on the account?

This is an interesting point, and if CCP indicates that they are considering dumping learning skills, I will recommend they think about the potential consequences. However, the effect may not be all that horrible, as most accounts have one toon with most of the learning skillpoints, and those points do represent roughly the same amount of training time no matter how they were distributed. Also, most people would put the points into their mains.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.09.24 06:05:00 - [626]
 

Edited by: Rip Minner on 24/09/2010 06:12:44
Edited by: Rip Minner on 24/09/2010 06:08:34
Originally by: DALLAM
Edited by: DALLAM on 23/09/2010 19:18:30
Edited by: DALLAM on 23/09/2010 19:18:02
This is what I propose as a solution: A Modifier Level 5 Learning Level. Cut the max learning level to level 4, which would give the player the same maximum training speed as level 5. The last level (level 5) gives the player a 3% increase in whatever attribute is used for a particular job. For instance, if a primary attribute on a particular weapon is Intelligence, then you would get a 3% increase in damage for having Intelligence at level 5. The secondary attribute would add another 2%--if it were level 5 also--for a total modifier of 5%. And in order to make it something that would entice newer players to strive for w/o making the game unnecessarily hard in the beginning, is to double or triple the training time of that last level from where it is now. That way you have maximum training speed after level 4, and you don't have to train the modifier level until you are further into game play, while that last modifier level takes a really long time to train, and would be considered an elite skill for advanced players.


I like this ideal but I had level 4 skills before I had level 5 skills. Belive it or not thoughs 2 points make a noticeable differnts. So I would not wish to lose them. You have 3% and 2% thats 5%. 5% over 10 levels worth of skill could be simply added as 0.5% each level and would make each level trained more usefull and mybe even fun too. This is hands down the best ideal I have seen to date. This is what I would do to make everyone happy or happyer.ugh


Edit: 5% my be to much or to little so what ever is ok with max skills just spread it out over all 10 levels. You mite even or probly would wieght it out so you got better or more benift from the higher ranking learning skills too.ugh

Edit2: Another good ideal to make them usefull more then they are is adding them as preq. On some iteams or other skills. Notable would be Socal skills for trading/Socal skills. Int/Memory for Sciance i.e. I aways belive it's better to fix content then to remove it.ugh


Torrent Talon
Minmatar
Hunter's Elite
Waterboard
Posted - 2010.09.24 07:17:00 - [627]
 

Originally by: Sooche Mo'Freed
Not Supported. This will not help player retention. Quite the opposite.

No the decision has not been made. The only decision that was made was that the csm should approach CCP about it.



Well that's a **** argument it won't help retention? Why not no reasons given you are simply flaming and being annoying please save us the "OMGWTF this guys stupidly ******" feeling we all get from reading comments made by people like you.

Orange Lagomorph
Posted - 2010.09.24 09:40:00 - [628]
 

Supported.

Sooche Mo'Freed
Posted - 2010.09.24 13:51:00 - [629]
 

Originally by: Torrent Talon

Well that's a **** argument it won't help retention? Why not no reasons given you are simply flaming and being annoying please save us the "OMGWTF this guys stupidly ******" feeling we all get from reading comments made by people like you.


Every player I have trained is still playing the game. Once the players saw the benefit of investing time in learning skills and how it helps them in long term they were encouraged by it. I have never had anyone put off by learning skills not once.

Plenty of people really dont like reading your stupidly ******ed comments.

Torrent Talon
Minmatar
Hunter's Elite
Waterboard
Posted - 2010.09.24 15:55:00 - [630]
 

Edited by: Torrent Talon on 24/09/2010 15:55:30
Originally by: Sooche Mo'Freed
Originally by: Torrent Talon

Well that's a **** argument it won't help retention? Why not no reasons given you are simply flaming and being annoying please save us the "OMGWTF this guys stupidly ******" feeling we all get from reading comments made by people like you.


Every player I have trained is still playing the game. Once the players saw the benefit of investing time in learning skills and how it helps them in long term they were encouraged by it. I have never had anyone put off by learning skills not once.

Plenty of people really dont like reading your stupidly ******ed comments.


just think about all those noobs that come from games like wow where doing something grants immediate gratification those types of people don't want to spend the first month of the game training skills and seeing the reward 6 months later, they just want to actually play the game. CCP want a larger playerebase so they are helping the retention of former wowies and the like.


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