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blankseplocked [Proposal] Learning skills solution
 
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Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.08.18 04:08:00 - [571]
 

Originally by: Xorv
Originally by: JinRogh
Not supported if you cant handle learning skills EVE isn't the game for you. Go play Wow with all the other impatient children.If they have to mess with the learning skills give every new player lvl 3 in all learning skills like it said in the evelopedia page I wont be happy but it wont ruin the game either.

I wanna be a physicist without going to school!!
I wanna be a truck driver without getting my CDL!!


How many "Learning Classes" have you taken in real life? In EVE if you want to be a Physicist you can learn Science and Physics. We don't have trucks in EVE, but if you want to fly an Industrial ship you learn the appropriate piloting skills in Space Ship Command. So WTF are learning skills? They're a time sink nothing more, there's no real correlation with learning things in real life.

Before you post next time I recommend you take a basic reasoning class because like most of the pro learning skill posters your arguments are terrible and make no sense. But if you really think it would help ask at your local college/uni if you can take "the learning class" instead.


Xorv I have taken class that teach you how to take notes in class and classes that teach you how to teach yourself and classes that teach you how to take test. So I would have to say that there are learning skills in real life and classes for thoughs skills.ugh

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.08.18 04:20:00 - [572]
 

Originally by: Xorv
Edited by: Xorv on 14/08/2010 01:10:18
Originally by: KaarBaak

Irony is a *****.

KB



Really? Perhaps you'd care to explain how what I said is in any way ironic? Or are you just another dumb troll that I ought to ignore?


I think she is pointing out that ""Before you post next time I recommend you take a basic reasoning class... "" would probly be a learning class.ugh

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.08.18 04:23:00 - [573]
 

Originally by: Uriel Winston
/ Supported

you know when i was a newbie i wanted to train for some ships, a little catalyst later a thorax and since i wasn't in a corp no one told me about learning skills... so i had wasted all 1.6m sp bonus in training skills i could have got 1000% faster if i trained learning skills.

reimburse or just make the SP vanish. dont care but its completely stupid to train skills that will make you train other skills faster.

READING A BOOK DOESN'T MAKE YOU READ THE NEXT ONE FASTER


Mybe not but there are learning classes in real life that can teach you to read faster learn faster and test faster and get better grades.ugh

Xorv
Posted - 2010.08.18 10:02:00 - [574]
 

Originally by: Rip Minner

I think she is pointing out that ""Before you post next time I recommend you take a basic reasoning class... "" would probly be a learning class.ugh


Then she completely missed the point. Basic Reasoning classes teach you how to present logical structured arguments and be aware of fallacies etc. It gives you something tangible. Much as a Skill in EVE like Diplomacy improves your relations with hostile Factions, or Nanite Engineering which allows you to use research agents in that field. If I spend time training one of these skills, I am learning, this is true. But then what are 'Learning Skills' and why do we need them in EVE?

There are Basic Reason Classes courses in College and Uni, they're usually part of the philosophy department and are first year courses. I've seen workshops that are effectively there to help you learn.. Learning Skills I suppose. But they're not needed nor taken by most students, and only occupy a few hours for those that do. The more appropriate representation of this would be the tutorials for starter characters, not lengthy skills that actually need to be trained for potentially months.

When you get down to it, there's only one reason for the Learning Skills in EVE and that's to add a time sink. And in that respect I understand why some of EVE's community want to keep them, because there's always been some MMORPG gamers that love time sinks and grinding that divides those that have jumped through the hoops of tedium and those who have not or will not. Perhaps to those same people this equates also to depth and choice, to the rest of us however, it is pointless tedious time sink and nothing more.




Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.27 02:51:00 - [575]
 

I fully support removing learning skills from the game, so new players can more quickly get at more content.

I have no problem if new players get some 'free' stuff.

I like the idea of having my skill points re-imbursed, but I won't lose sleep over it.

Dont Lookatme
Posted - 2010.08.27 19:44:00 - [576]
 

Yes.
I see no real down side for old players, and the boost would be a nice boost to the new players.

Lucyna
Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
Posted - 2010.08.27 22:45:00 - [577]
 

But but but but but...

Valthax Kelkore
Posted - 2010.08.29 13:27:00 - [578]
 

Not supported.

All good things come to those who wait.

The learning skills are like Pandora's Box. They're here and now they can't get rid of them. Additionally, with 20 pages of debate, CCP is probably questioning the legitimacy of such a decision at this point.

Viribus
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
Posted - 2010.08.29 18:48:00 - [579]
 

Edited by: Viribus on 29/08/2010 18:48:54
Originally by: Valthax Kelkore
Not supported.

All good things come to those who wait.


That's why we have regular skills. They're a clear demonstration of time spent vs. reward, the reward being whatever the skills allow you to do. Except learning skills, which:

A) Only widen the already-massive gap between new and old players, and frankly the playing field could use a little leveling.

B) Have no affect on gameplay whatsoever. It's a needless sink of ~1 month of training that slows down the already-glacial pace of the game for newbies.

C) Only serve to lock characters into career paths. CCP has demonstrated, with the removal of racial skill bonuses, that they want characters to have the option to go into different career paths whenever they choose; having training skills heavily invested into one area discourages players from expanding to different areas.

Honestly I don't see why they exist at all other than for the sake of roleplayers. I'm no longer a newbie but I could see why new players would be turned off the game because they have even more catching up to do.

John'eh
Gallente
Asteroid Belt Protection Services
Posted - 2010.09.01 10:58:00 - [580]
 

Not supported.

This is what separates the great minds from the common masses.. the 2 year old player with no learning skills and the month old noob able to learn anything fast. To do this would harm eve in the wors way possible by making it safer, easier, brighter. It would be un-Eve-Like.

count sporkula
Posted - 2010.09.01 16:47:00 - [581]
 

Edited by: count sporkula on 01/09/2010 16:48:00
what about possibly rearranging learning skills. instead of a + to attributes maybe it instead gives a boost to train a specific skill group of your choice? and instead of a actively earned skill make it a passively gained bonus given to people after a certain subscription age? with a max of 5 groups with a bonus.

this way instead of rewarding you for spending time else ware it rewards you for staying with the game.

what i mean is after a character has been subscribed for 1 month, 6 months 1 year, 1.5 years, and finally 2 years gets a bonus to train a skill group... it rewards those who stay with the game. and this does not include unsubscribed time (i.e. have the account for 2 years with no subscription) nor would a break in the time affect it (example: you subscribe for 6 months take off 3 months and then subscribe again for 9 months would mean you get the 1 month, 6 month , and 1 year bonus.


i doubt i was clear enough for others to understand but what of that as a possibility? although i'm probably crazy and that is ok to.

SickSeven
Simplistic Syndicate
Posted - 2010.09.01 18:45:00 - [582]
 

It is the best idea yet.

Newbee
Posted - 2010.09.03 00:36:00 - [583]
 

NOT supporting... there are people ingame that had to wait and proof patience ( what is a big part about eve in general from my point of view ) to train them all up to level 5 ... it would be really unfair to those who did that and no just reassigning the SP to other skills is NOT a solution for this for one good reason... some people trained them to level 5 to have a bonus in long term... other did NOT train them up but other skills instead and will now recieve the same bonus??? ... these are the wishes of people that just dont have the patience to wait training skills...

--> NO plz DONT do this

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.09.03 03:52:00 - [584]
 

Originally by: Newbee
NOT supporting... there are people ingame that had to wait and proof patience ( what is a big part about eve in general from my point of view ) to train them all up to level 5 ... it would be really unfair to those who did that and no just reassigning the SP to other skills is NOT a solution for this for one good reason... some people trained them to level 5 to have a bonus in long term... other did NOT train them up but other skills instead and will now recieve the same bonus??? ... these are the wishes of people that just dont have the patience to wait training skills...

--> NO plz DONT do this


Quoted for truth!

Cy Kopath
Posted - 2010.09.03 11:44:00 - [585]
 

Originally by: Newbee
NOT supporting... there are people ingame that had to wait and proof patience ( what is a big part about eve in general from my point of view ) to train them all up to level 5 ... it would be really unfair to those who did that and no just reassigning the SP to other skills is NOT a solution for this for one good reason... some people trained them to level 5 to have a bonus in long term... other did NOT train them up but other skills instead and will now recieve the same bonus??? ... these are the wishes of people that just dont have the patience to wait training skills...

--> NO plz DONT do this


Wood for the trees perhaps? The player who trained to level V receives more of a bonus than the person that only trained them to IV. Firstly they would get more reimbursed SP than the latter pilot (which you state isn't enough), however they have also received the benefit of faster training time over that level IV pilot since they trained their skills to V.

The only people I see objecting to this are the "I had to eat gruel as a child, so you should too" bunch. Learning skills provide nothing but a divider between the old and the new players. If the learning skills are taken away you lose nothing, what you are upset about is that other people are getting something that you already have.

Ramon Wilco
Caldari
Psycho Corp
Posted - 2010.09.03 12:00:00 - [586]
 

I dont see the problem of learning skills...

I have all learning at 5, my best friend didnt train more than lvl 3 for advanced...

Noob that join our corpo use evemon to see when they can gain some training time on skill plans to see when they sould train some lvl of learning ...
(This way they play faster, and they dont go for 2 month of stupid "only learning" training.

There are plenty ways to improve the skill rating, and plenty of ways to loose SP and time (how many time i cant skill at higher rate cause beeing poded and have no implants ? lol).

So let the learning as the way it is, please :)

Best regards

Mayham Jack
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.03 19:34:00 - [587]
 

not supported,

K5K AnimalMother
Amarr
Solar Nexus.
Cascade Probable
Posted - 2010.09.05 15:09:00 - [588]
 

I would enjoy spending the 4mil sp I have there in the same way we were allowed to after the 31 hour downtime :)

I would love to see this happen as soon as possible.

Missa d'Orrin
Posted - 2010.09.05 16:53:00 - [589]
 

Yes, but only if the SP's are reimbursed.


Old chars won't mind (small percentage in learners).
New char with no learners won't mind(small percentage in learners).
New char WITH learners doesn't get screwed over for 50%+ of his SP's.

Jane Dozer
Posted - 2010.09.05 21:34:00 - [590]
 

Edited by: Jane Dozer on 05/09/2010 21:34:27
Supported.

TheWarpGhost
Posted - 2010.09.06 13:36:00 - [591]
 

Supported. Im much more interested in newer players being able to get into the game fully more quickly, than the effectively abstract concept of lvl5/+5s characters fractionally catching up with older players with only lvl4/+4s over an X years timeline of strict focused training regimes.

I'd rather play EVE than EVEmon.

Gyro DuAquin1
Ev0ke
Posted - 2010.09.06 14:47:00 - [592]
 

short: no

long answer: nnnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooo

This discussion has been going on for years alsways with the same arguments

- new players hate it
- old players forgot about it
- players that have maxed it dont care

First of all the new players that dont like to skill weeks and weeks for the rest of their eve life for a certrain purpose - this is not your game, move along.

This game is all about having to train weeks and weeks and weeks for certrain ships/mods/stats/aspects. Learnings are a part of this very concept. You cant grind it and you cant get a premium account. So as i said move along nothing to see here. Eve is the only MMO that has this concept and if you dont like it there is something else for you out there.

Also these are pretty much the only skill that will help your throughout your whole eve existance. Other skills might be helpfull to but learning in general will always be helpful.
As in my times as a recruiter and mentor for newer players i told new ppl that it would be smart to have learning from the start up - but not everything we do in life is smart. So I told them get to a ship that will be handy for a few days and then train your learnings. Also learnings are a good time to sort out where you wanna go, in eve there are tons of possible ways and finding the right one for you will take some time.

In general Eve training from time to time is pain in the ass. Depending on how long you are in the game the pain differs, at the beginning a few days are a pain, then two weeks are a pain, then you get to the point that you dont care how long it takes cause its waht you want to learn.

New players dont need to train Learnings. At some point it might become handy, but before that you can easily train your first cruiser and do whatever you like. You probally lag the money to but one but you can train one, lose it and be frustrated about it and leave the game after 2 days.

Longtime Luver
The.Usual.Suspects
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.09.06 19:46:00 - [593]
 

/signed

ImmaSplodeYou
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.09.06 20:12:00 - [594]
 

They're kinda unnecessary. The less time spent preparing to prepare to play the game the better.

I support Attribute implants though, because they provide a carrot-and-stick to get enough money or LP for them and such. However, I would happily compromise and get rid of those if it meant we could axe learning skills

Tido Maliyu
Cobalt Dragon Exploration Company
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.09.08 04:20:00 - [595]
 

After 5 years I only have them at 5/4... and really I don't care. The new account I'm playing from scratch doesn't really have an issue with it either; no reason to train them all at once...

Haxfar Portlaind
Posted - 2010.09.14 19:05:00 - [596]
 

Not to necro a post, but i just want to say i agree

Lord Wilding
EdgeGamers

Posted - 2010.09.14 20:29:00 - [597]
 

Originally by: John'eh
Not supported.

This is what separates the great minds from the common masses.. the 2 year old player with no learning skills and the month old noob able to learn anything fast. To do this would harm eve in the wors way possible by making it safer, easier, brighter. It would be un-Eve-Like.

What exactly would make this harm EVE? If anything, it would help EVE by creating a lower dropout rate of new players. This means a larger population base over time which means a healthier MMO which means more development which means I could add an almost infinite amount of "which means" to this sentence. This topic has been brought up numerous times throughout the years and getting rid of learning skills completely always has more benefits than disadvantages.

Supported.

Starchain
Posted - 2010.09.14 23:08:00 - [598]
 

Not supported.

New players must deal with learning skills like everyone else did before them.

Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder

Posted - 2010.09.15 03:00:00 - [599]
 

Edited by: Ultim8Evil on 15/09/2010 03:05:13
20 pages = tl;dr

I had to train the learning skills many years ago, much like every other older player.

Why should new players not do the same?

Are CCP that desperate to get more players that they are willing to screw over the older ones?

If it worked 6 years ago, why are we fixing it now?

New players already get a 1.6 Mill SP training boost and neural remaps have been introduced for n00bs who ****ed up their attributes at character creation or want to change career paths.

EVE is about having patience and carefully developing your character over an extended period, which should involve time and effort.

Having said that, if they do get removed, my attributes stay the same, and I get 4 Mill SP to put wherever I like, topic supported. Laughing

I don't give a **** about the learning skills as such: Just the SP/Time I have invested in them, the time they have saved me so far, and the time they will save me in the future.

[EDIT]

Also, this thread is approaching 4 months old and the the CSM submission is 2 months old and still has "TBA" under the Meeting Minutes.

Has this gotten any further than the forum flame war and trolling stage yet? Rolling Eyes

D Scan
Posted - 2010.09.15 23:52:00 - [600]
 

Approved.


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