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Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.05.26 17:36:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Solution looking for a problem.

Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.

Not supported.


This. Learning skills annoy people, but they're not a problem.


I would like to contest that. I've introduced several people to EVE, and every single one of them came back to me within the first few days asking 'what do I do with these learning skills?'. I don't know howmuch of a deterrent it is to new players, although I can imagine it is, but in the least, it causes confusion.


Confusion? Sure. Many things about Eve confuse new players. I know a great many things about Eve confused me at first and took a long time for me to wrap my brain around.

That's not a bad thing. That confusion is a lot of what kept me interested.

Most long-term players I know relished the "figuring things out" process that comes with learning Eve. I'd say those players, who become long-term, are Eve's target market.. not the easily discouraged because things are confusing.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.05.26 17:43:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri


Most long-term players I know relished the "figuring things out" process that comes with learning Eve. I'd say those players, who become long-term, are Eve's target market.. not the easily discouraged because things are confusing.


Not that kind of confusing..more the kind of 'I know what they do..but whyyy?..' Wink

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.05.26 18:11:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 26/05/2010 18:29:08
Originally by: Sokratesz
I would like to contest that. I've introduced several people to EVE, and every single one of them came back to me within the first few days asking 'what do I do with these learning skills?'. I don't know howmuch of a deterrent it is to new players, although I can imagine it is, but in the least, it causes confusion.


I have a friend we can call "A". I introduced A to Eve. A enjoyed it for a few weeks, but became rather frustrated with several parts of the game, ultimately leading to her moving on to a different game. These were her complaints:

Exclamation You mean I have to spend more than a month just to be able to train skills as fast as everyone else?

Exclamation Why are there all these extra modules for almost the same price which are a lot worse than the modules people use? (talking about named stuff)

Exclamation This tutorial is really long and boring. Why do I have to learn about mining?

Exclamation Why can't I click on something to attack it?

Exclamation These quests are mind-numbingly boring.

A ended up ditching Eve for Hellgate London (which died). Came back to Eve briefly and reiterated how much repetitive action there was, how much time was spent waiting, and how boring missions were, before leaving for Tabula Rasa (which died). Couldn't convince A to try Eve again after that. Considering how games she play end up dying, perhaps that's for the best. However, she still made valid points that are likely echoed by other people who try Eve then quit. There is a certain demand for some linear content to get people into the game that Eve lacks (or lacked, it has been a while since I last ran the tutorial). Ditching the learning skills would allow people to start working on their gameplay-related training right away without any detours.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.05.26 20:45:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
I would like to contest that. I've introduced several people to EVE, and every single one of them came back to me within the first few days asking 'what do I do with these learning skills?'. I don't know howmuch of a deterrent it is to new players, although I can imagine it is, but in the least, it causes confusion.


Every time I've introduced someone to Eve, I've explained it to them and given them the advice to spend maybe half their time on learning skills and half on real skills. Never heard any complaints.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.05.26 21:05:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Sokratesz
I would like to contest that. I've introduced several people to EVE, and every single one of them came back to me within the first few days asking 'what do I do with these learning skills?'. I don't know howmuch of a deterrent it is to new players, although I can imagine it is, but in the least, it causes confusion.


Every time I've introduced someone to Eve, I've explained it to them and given them the advice to spend maybe half their time on learning skills and half on real skills. Never heard any complaints.


Same here. I just tell em that 4+3 is fine, anything after that is a commitment for the really long term, and to make that decision when they make that commitment. One didn't bother with the advanced skills at all until he'd been playing for over a year, another trained up 5+5 before he even started playing (messy divorce at 6 months of his life), the rest ended up in the 4+4 to 5+5 range.

Seriously the whole "LRNING SKILZ ARE EVIL" thing is just people crying to be protected from their own weakness in being unable to restrain themselves from min-maxing. They can't stand the idea that someone, somewhere might be getting a whole 66 SP/hr more than them, but they dont want to put in the time to get that last couple of percent.

Kiri Serrensun
Posted - 2010.05.26 21:27:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Solution looking for a problem.

Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.

Not supported.


What depth? Defer do-fun-stuff skills at the start of your career so as not to cripple yourself later? Wow, such freedom of choice. Good to see the e-wang "EVE is not supposed to be accessible to those foul noobs, it's a game for REAL MEN!" brigade out in force.

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.05.26 21:30:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Kiri Serrensun
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Solution looking for a problem.

Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.

Not supported.


What depth? Defer do-fun-stuff skills at the start of your career so as not to cripple yourself later? Wow, such freedom of choice. Good to see the e-wang "EVE is not supposed to be accessible to those foul noobs, it's a game for REAL MEN!" brigade out in force.


I was one of those "foul noobs" and I enjoyed the choice. I actually didn't finish up my learning skills until well after 2 years into the game.

Cripple yourself? Nonsense. A level 5 skill is a level 5 skill no matter how long it takes to train it.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.05.26 21:54:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

Seriously the whole "LRNING SKILZ ARE EVIL" thing is just people crying to be protected from their own weakness in being unable to restrain themselves from min-maxing. They can't stand the idea that someone, somewhere might be getting a whole 66 SP/hr more than them, but they dont want to put in the time to get that last couple of percent.


Your attitude is terrible, and you're absolutely wrong. I find it amusing that you refuse to look beyond your own prejudice of (seemingly) "LOL THEY WEEK MIN MAXER LOL" to "wow, we make people sit around for like 2 weeks doing nothing fun in the game". It doesn't even make any sense, because if they eliminated learning skills most of the people in this thread wouldn't even be affected. WE would all be exactly as we are because WE already paid the piper. Learning skills add nothing to the game. I've introduced several friends to the game and they have almost all quit in the time when they're supposed to be doing learning skills. And yes, I told them to train up some skills to do something in the game first. I mean God Forbid that I have an interest in making Eve not suck for new players.

I mean seriously, how do you justify me as an older player having an ever widening gap in capabilities because I trained learning skills? In order to even slow that gap they've got to spend damn near a month training learning skills. A month that they could have devoted to getting some skills under their feet so that I don't solo their Myrm in a Vigil or something.

-Liang

Therendief
Posted - 2010.05.26 22:50:00 - [39]
 

The people who would be most hurt are this are the new players(for example myself). I am at roughly 5mil SP now in 3 months, and if I lost my learning skills suddenly I would be set way back on both my accounts, having wasted 21 days approx on two accounts(+my extra remap on the second one for training learning skills). So unless a system of bonus is put in, your only hurting the people who joined in the past 6 months(post dominion) who have already put in the time to train them and would now train slower AND have wasted 3+weeks on learning skills.
Just my 2cents, supported as per OP.
Removing with no bonus NOT SUPPORTED.

Dominar Solon
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.05.27 01:54:00 - [40]
 

I did write up a few paragraphs here and just decided that i did not have enough room to continue. That said I like option 3. It gives those character / players a massive bonus for spending the time training and planning their characters. We get the benefit of learning skills faster over the past few years and we get one final thank you for the SP getting applied to skills to train them very fast. All players now train at the same rate unless you have implants. implants will become in high demand which will drive up their price in the short term. New players will not be faced with useless skill training to train skills.

This allows those older characters to be able to look back and remember something else fondly or egregiously depending on your perspective. Ultimately CCP is a fool if they indeed ever mentioned any task and used the phrase "what can we do that will not make people angry" Regardless the choice, some will be angry. Some will threaten to quit, some might even do just that. But if a decision is to be made I think that this is a good one. All new players train at the same speed as vets. Vets got a bonus for being here and working hard. New players cant be angry about it. Old players should not have sold their account. Vets, well we did our time, and have to go slow like everyone else now but we were rewarded for our service.

Kiram
Posted - 2010.05.27 02:20:00 - [41]
 

Liang I can justify the gap widening because when I started a few years later than other players who had trained the skills the same thing happened to me.

Several years down the line it isn't an issue anymore for me at all.

Too many ppl view it as a game that you should be able to do everything fast like every other online game which is surprising to me because the main reason I like EVE is because it is so radicaly different from all the others.

Just my thoughts and I accept other PPL want different goals.






Maksim Cammeren
Posted - 2010.05.27 02:26:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Therendief
The people who would be most hurt are this are the new players(for example myself). I am at roughly 5mil SP now in 3 months, and if I lost my learning skills suddenly I would be set way back on both my accounts, having wasted 21 days approx on two accounts(+my extra remap on the second one for training learning skills). So unless a system of bonus is put in, your only hurting the people who joined in the past 6 months(post dominion) who have already put in the time to train them and would now train slower AND have wasted 3+weeks on learning skills.
Just my 2cents, supported as per OP.
Removing with no bonus NOT SUPPORTED.


I completely agree. I am at 6 mil SPs, with 2.5 mil in Learning. Noone told me that CCP was trying to remove them, so I would be upset if they just disappeared. However, the proposed solution of essentially distributing the points to other skills sounds fair.

As a new character starting in the game, I was faced with a choice: have fun and learn useful skills now or sit and wait until learning trains up, so I can be more useful later. It was not a fun choice and it does hurt the new player experience. The fast learning of the first 1.6 mil helps, but is not nearly enough for those SP-hungry advanced skills.

Now that I am done with about half the learning skills, I am proud of them. But I would be just as proud if I had that extra 2.5 mil SP in gunnery or spaceship command.

Therendief
Posted - 2010.05.27 03:05:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Dominar Solon
I did write up a few paragraphs here and just decided that i did not have enough room to continue. That said I like option 3. It gives those character / players a massive bonus for spending the time training and planning their characters. We get the benefit of learning skills faster over the past few years and we get one final thank you for the SP getting applied to skills to train them very fast. All players now train at the same rate unless you have implants. implants will become in high demand which will drive up their price in the short term. New players will not be faced with useless skill training to train skills.

This allows those older characters to be able to look back and remember something else fondly or egregiously depending on your perspective. Ultimately CCP is a fool if they indeed ever mentioned any task and used the phrase "what can we do that will not make people angry" Regardless the choice, some will be angry. Some will threaten to quit, some might even do just that. But if a decision is to be made I think that this is a good one. All new players train at the same speed as vets. Vets got a bonus for being here and working hard. New players cant be angry about it. Old players should not have sold their account. Vets, well we did our time, and have to go slow like everyone else now but we were rewarded for our service.


I believe the OP was considering that the 3 together would be the total solution(max attributes that a character can have, so that everyone would be equalized). Then all the learning skills would be removed, finally the bonus SP used already(often by people training using there bonus SP time) would then be applied at a bonus rate, equal to what was already learned.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.05.27 08:13:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Malcanis

Seriously the whole "LRNING SKILZ ARE EVIL" thing is just people crying to be protected from their own weakness in being unable to restrain themselves from min-maxing. They can't stand the idea that someone, somewhere might be getting a whole 66 SP/hr more than them, but they dont want to put in the time to get that last couple of percent.


Your attitude is terrible, and you're absolutely wrong. I find it amusing that you refuse to look beyond your own prejudice of (seemingly) "LOL THEY WEEK MIN MAXER LOL" to "wow, we make people sit around for like 2 weeks doing nothing fun in the game".
-Liang


WE. DONT. MAKE. THEM. DO. THIS. YOU. LIAR.

It really is laughable that in the very first paragraph of your attempted refutation, you exactly illustrate my point. In no way, shape or form are new players "made" to sit around for any period of time doing nothing fun in the game. It is only their own perception - or, far more frequently the god-awful advice of people like you - that leads them to do this.

You are implicitly assuming that they should do the efficient thing at the expense of fun. That is the living definition of "mini-maxing".

New players can and should be out doing fun stuff from day 1. This is perfectly compatible with training learning skills some but not all of the time.
I know that's a pretty complex and radical concept but once you understand it, it's awesome.


I'm not even going to address your terrible restatement of the Never Catch Up fallacy, as it has been refuted so many times that I can only assume that you're trolling.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.27 09:04:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Ethos777
Good solution

I also think it would be reasonable to give all characters an extra +5 to all attributes and either remove the 1-5 implants or use them entirely for stat/skill bonus's like the current sets work.

/signed

Original proposal supported. +1

Your extra proposal supported, too. I've always considered the learning implants a huge reason people don't go PvP en masse: it's one thing to lose a ship; but regularly losing 600+ mil worth of +5 implants, who can afford that? Yes, you can always clone-jump; but if you have to do so every other day, then it's like not having them half the time, after all. +1

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.27 09:06:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Ditching the learning skills would allow people to start working on their gameplay-related training right away
Originally by: Kiri Serrensun
Defer do-fun-stuff skills at the start of your career so as not to cripple yourself later?
Originally by: Liang Nuren
we make people sit around for like 2 weeks doing nothing fun in the game
the time when they're supposed to be doing learning skills
how do you justify me as an older player having an ever widening gap in capabilities because I trained learning skills

The competition was fierce, but Liang takes the Failure At EVE prize for this thread.

Entries still open however.

BTW, how do you justify me as an older player being able to fly a Battleship just because I trained the Battleships skill?

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.05.27 09:12:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: ViolenTUK on 27/05/2010 09:13:45

Originally by: Kaya Divine
Intro: Some of you are aware that CCP wants to remove those,


CCP are no longer looking to remove learning skills. It is true that they regretted introducing them but since CCP have introduced the Skill queue, neural remap and learning speed bonus and since there are so many players strongly for the use of learning skills they see no reason to do so.

Not supported.

Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2010.05.27 09:19:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Bagehi
Ditching the learning skills would allow people to start working on their gameplay-related training right away
Originally by: Kiri Serrensun
Defer do-fun-stuff skills at the start of your career so as not to cripple yourself later?
Originally by: Liang Nuren
we make people sit around for like 2 weeks doing nothing fun in the game
the time when they're supposed to be doing learning skills
how do you justify me as an older player having an ever widening gap in capabilities because I trained learning skills

The competition was fierce, but Liang takes the Failure At EVE prize for this thread.

Entries still open however.

BTW, how do you justify me as an older player being able to fly a Battleship just because I trained the Battleships skill?



Don't give them any ideas. The next proposal will be "Since we all pay subs why don't we have every skill maxed as standard because it's an unfair advantage to only be able to fly rookie ships when we start"?


Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.27 09:31:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
WE. DONT. MAKE. THEM. DO. THIS. YOU. LIAR.

It really is laughable that in the very first paragraph of your attempted refutation, you exactly illustrate my point. In no way, shape or form are new players "made" to sit around for any period of time doing nothing fun in the game. It is only their own perception - or, far more frequently the god-awful advice of people like you - that leads them to do this.

You are implicitly assuming that they should do the efficient thing at the expense of fun. That is the living definition of "mini-maxing".
Semantics. Liang is absolutely right.

Nobody is literally forcing anyone to not go do fun stuff. Yet the very existence of the learning skills will cause any reasonably sensible person to gravitate towards doing the learning skills first. Simple as that. Yes, a newbie could go train Battleship IV at 1320 sp/h. Sure. But only an extremely short-sighted person will keep that up for very long. Most folks grasp that doing learning skills first, so you can afterwards train at 2772 sp/h, is probably ever-so slightly more efficient. So, only a masochist, or a blithering idiot, will purposely train at way too slow speeds.

Hence, Liang is right: learning skills make you do learning first, however loud you decry the fact.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.27 09:49:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
the very existence of the learning skills will cause any reasonably sensible person to gravitate towards doing the learning skills first
So, paying to play a game, playing in a way which offers you no fun, and boring yourself out of said game (i.e. the "noob who is driven out by the learning skills" story) is reasonable?

Originally by: Ranka Mei
Yes, a newbie could go train Battleship IV at 1320 sp/h. Sure. But only an extremely short-sighted person will keep that up for very long.
Straw man. A noob will not be training for battleships day 1. Furthermore, BSes are so far down the line that many levels of the learning skills will actually speed it up rather than make it take longer.

Originally by: Ranka Mei
only a masochist, or a blithering idiot, will purposely train at way too slow speeds.
Only a masochist or a blithering idiot will minmax at the cost of enjoyment of a game.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.27 10:20:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Ranka Mei
the very existence of the learning skills will cause any reasonably sensible person to gravitate towards doing the learning skills first
So, paying to play a game, playing in a way which offers you no fun, and boring yourself out of said game (i.e. the "noob who is driven out by the learning skills" story) is reasonable?
Yeah, it is, actually. It's like being in school: sure, it's always more fun to go outside and play baseball, or go to the mall and hang with your friends. Sooner or later most students 'get' it though: a little less fun in the now will increase it manifold later.

So, if you find that unreasonable, then you're actually saying the learning skills system is unreasonable. But within the learning skills system, yes, learning first is the sensible, reasonable thing to do. Which is why it should be changed.

Quote:
Originally by: Ranka Mei
Yes, a newbie could go train Battleship IV at 1320 sp/h. Sure. But only an extremely short-sighted person will keep that up for very long.
Straw man. A noob will not be training for battleships day 1.
Semantics, again; replace 'Battleship IV' with 'Any skill that takes longer than a few days.' Because that's the issue: nobody is gonna feel the slow-training of, say, 'Frigate I'. But people will feel the impact when it comes to longer skills. And even when noobs will be training many short skills first, their falling behind catches up with them rapidly. There's just no way around it: don't do learning skills, and your initial 'fun' will turn sour pretty fast.

Quote:
Originally by: Ranka Mei
only a masochist, or a blithering idiot, will purposely train at way too slow speeds.
Only a masochist or a blithering idiot will minmax at the cost of enjoyment of a game.
If by 'enjoyment' you mean 'instant gratification,' then yes. It's a good thing most people can look beyond that, though; which is why the learning skills are a bad thing.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.27 10:50:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
It's like being in school
Did you see the part where I italicised game? Think about that.
In RL you do unfun things for a long-term benefit. That's life. If you do that in a game, you are probably doing it wrong.

Quote:
Semantics, again; replace 'Battleship IV' with 'Any skill that takes longer than a few days.' Because that's the issue: nobody is gonna feel the slow-training of, say, 'Frigate I'.
So noobs doing early skills, who I say should train little or no learning skills, will feel no loss in not having the learning skills, until they start training longer skills, the point at which I suggest they do the learning skills, and the point at which they would start to feel the loss.

Wow. I think the phrase 'working as intended' pretty much sums that up.


Originally by: Ranka Mei
But people will feel the impact when it comes to longer skills. And even when noobs will be training many short skills first, their falling behind catches up with them rapidly. There's just no way around it: don't do learning skills, and your initial 'fun' will turn sour pretty fast.
Falling behind WHAT?

THERE IS NO RACE
ENGAGE BRAIN
ATTEMPT TO COMPREHEND
RACE NO THERE IS
THERE RACE IS NO
NO RACE IS THERE
etc

Also, I didn't do the learning skills straight away on any characters except dedicated research alts and the like, and my fun never 'turned sour'. In fact, the only people who seem to have that problem are the people who do do them straight away. So stop talking ****.


Quote:
If by 'enjoyment' you mean 'instant gratification,'
False dichotomy; there is a gray area between instant gratification and pure minmaxing, though I wouldn't be surprised if you can't see it.

Furthermore you assume a scale from instant grafication ('fun') to minmaxing ('not fun'), when an individual's idea of fun may actually be located anywhere in that spectrum.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.05.27 11:47:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
Originally by: Malcanis
WE. DONT. MAKE. THEM. DO. THIS. YOU. LIAR.

It really is laughable that in the very first paragraph of your attempted refutation, you exactly illustrate my point. In no way, shape or form are new players "made" to sit around for any period of time doing nothing fun in the game. It is only their own perception - or, far more frequently the god-awful advice of people like you - that leads them to do this.

You are implicitly assuming that they should do the efficient thing at the expense of fun. That is the living definition of "mini-maxing".
Semantics. Liang is absolutely right.

Nobody is literally forcing anyone to not go do fun stuff. Yet the very existence of the learning skills will cause any reasonably sensible person to gravitate towards doing the learning skills first. Simple as that. Yes, a newbie could go train Battleship IV at 1320 sp/h. Sure. But only an extremely short-sighted person will keep that up for very long. Most folks grasp that doing learning skills first, so you can afterwards train at 2772 sp/h, is probably ever-so slightly more efficient. So, only a masochist, or a blithering idiot, will purposely train at way too slow speeds.

Hence, Liang is right: learning skills make you do learning first, however loud you decry the fact.


*sigh*

You're making exactly the same unproven assumption as Liang. That one must be "efficient". And you're also employing the fallacy of the excluded middle by implying that there's no middle ground between doing no learning skills at all, and doing nothing but learning skills.

Since I specifically mention the concept of training SOME learning skills mixed up with other skill types, I can only assume that you're being deliberately dishonest.

It's just as bad for a new character to train NOTHING but learning skills as it would be for the to train NOTHING except Engineering, or NOTHING except Social skills. If there's one thing a brand new player should NOT be doing it is focusing exclusively on any one skill group.

Given that seemingly obvious (I say 'seemingly', because apparently it's not obvious to you) principle, how on God's green earth can you possibly assert that new players are "made to train nothing but learning"? So far from being made to, it's seemingly obvious they should do nothing of the sort.

Unless you're a helplessly obsessive-compulsive minimaxer, of course Rolling Eyes

The only significant problem with Learning skills is griefers (and I use the word deliberately) like you telling new players that they must train learning skills first. You should be ashamed of yourself, because that's a mean thing to do to someone who doesn't know any better.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2010.05.27 12:48:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Ranka Mei on 27/05/2010 12:50:11
Originally by: Malcanis
*sigh*

You're making exactly the same unproven assumption as Liang. That one must be "efficient".
Um, yeah! :) Because to stake a position that one should play a game deliberately inefficiently is just plain ******ed.

Quote:
And you're also employing the fallacy of the excluded middle by implying that there's no middle ground between doing no learning skills at all, and doing nothing but learning skills.
And you're just pulling that out of thin air (or, more likely, from a place where the sun don't shine). Because nowhere, ever, did I say one should only be doing learning skills.

In fact, there's a whole nuance to 'min-max'-ing learning skills that is, no doubt, entirely lost on you. For instance, it's not efficient to spend your entire 1.6 mil SP on learning skills exclusively. The extra gain you get from getting a learning skill to lv V, during the double-speed bonus time, does not outweigh having learnt a regular skill at double speed instead. Also, for the Advanced Learning Skills, getting them all to lv V on a single remap is inefficient too, as each of these Advanced Learning Skills takes 'itself' as main attribute, as it were. For example, 'Clarity', adding 1 additional point to your Perception attribute per skill level, requires Perception + Willpower. Likewise, 'Presence', adding 1 additional point to your Charisma attribute per skill level, requires Charisma + Perception; etc. So, getting these Advanced skills to lv V is really best done the moment you do a favorable remap towards their individual attributes.

Instead of saying one should only be doing learning skills at first, I said: "Yet the very existence of the learning skills will cause any reasonably sensible person to gravitate towards doing the learning skills first." And I chose "gravitate towards" with great care, as it's exactly so. Sure, when I got my learning skills to around 3 or so, I trained some other stuff: a handful of support skills, some missile skills, and enough ship skills to fly my Drake. But I nonetheless kept being drawn back to doing learning skills, as they simply are a priority for a newbie. I did not invent that system: I just saw it would benefit me.

Quote:
It's just as bad for a new character to train NOTHING but learning skills as it would be for the to train NOTHING except Engineering, or NOTHING except Social skills. If there's one thing a brand new player should NOT be doing it is focusing exclusively on any one skill group.
See, this is the thing you're uncomprehending on: learning skills are NOT the same as any other skill group; they are a 'meta' set: whatever you train with learning skills positively affects all other areas of your training. Hence, they should get priority.

Quote:
The only significant problem with Learning skills is griefers (and I use the word deliberately) like you telling new players that they must train learning skills first. You should be ashamed of yourself, because that's a mean thing to do to someone who doesn't know any better.
Yes, I'm sure they're much better off in your hands, being told learning is for nerdy, OCD-ing wimps, and that they should just go have fun, not worrying too much about their future, because it's just a game, after all. [/sarcasm]

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.27 13:15:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Crumplecorn on 27/05/2010 13:34:38
Originally by: Ranka Mei
Because to stake a position that one should play a game deliberately inefficiently is just plain ******ed.
Nothing you say will be of any consequence as long as it is predicated on this silliness.


Also:
Originally by: Ranka Mei
they should just go have fun, not worrying too much about their future, because it's just a game, after all. [/sarcasm]
Please be trolling.

suspisious
Posted - 2010.05.27 13:45:00 - [56]
 

+1

Theres nothing deep or meaningfull to these learning skill. You have to level em, as early as possible. Or else you simply miss out.

Giving the spend points back is needed though. Someone mentioned correctly that a low level 6 mil point char will be gutted that way without a refund.

Good thing eve already has a system for getting those points back. Get the speed training bonus for the points you invested.


Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.05.27 14:19:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 27/05/2010 14:29:14
Originally by: Therendief
The people who would be most hurt are this are the new players(for example myself). I am at roughly 5mil SP now in 3 months, and if I lost my learning skills suddenly I would be set way back on both my accounts, having wasted 21 days approx on two accounts(+my extra remap on the second one for training learning skills). So unless a system of bonus is put in, your only hurting the people who joined in the past 6 months(post dominion) who have already put in the time to train them and would now train slower AND have wasted 3+weeks on learning skills.
Just my 2cents, supported as per OP.
Removing with no bonus NOT SUPPORTED.


This guy has a right to complain about removing learning skills. The thread actually is for a plan to remove learning skills, but compensate people for them. So you will likely be better off with the change than without, because you would gain the attribute equivalent of max learning skills.

It has nothing to do about "wasting time" or "falling behind" it simply is a time sink. People are basically stuck with a month of subscription time training skills to train skills. It is like sticking a required skill between frigate and cruiser that has no other purpose in the game but to allow you to train cruiser. Sure, you don't have to train it... but you are going to restrict your capabilities pretty badly if you don't.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.05.27 14:22:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
Yes, I'm sure they're much better off in your hands, being told learning is for nerdy, OCD-ing wimps, and that they should just go have fun, not worrying too much about their future, because it's just a game, after all. [/sarcasm]


In all sincerity, I genuinely think you should stop playing MMOs for a little while if you think that advice needs a /sacrcasm tag.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2010.05.27 14:32:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: suspisious
You have to level em, as early as possible. Or else you simply miss out.
Incorrect.


Originally by: Bagehi
It has nothing to do about "wasting time" or "falling behind" it simply is a time sink.
All skills are simply a time sink. And these ones actually reduce the size of the sink.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION

Posted - 2010.05.27 17:08:00 - [60]
 

This seems like a good idea. But why not just give people who have learning skills the sp to put where ever they want? Whats with the 1000% increase in speed?

The only potential drawback I see from this is that we may all be able to learn skills too fast. Maybe only give everyone +7 accross the board and reimburse all the sp spent in learning.




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