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blankseplocked [Proposal] Learning skills solution
 
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Mr LaForge
Posted - 2010.07.29 15:42:00 - [541]
 

Just remember guys, 89% of statistics are made up and the 6 studies I got that data from agree.

And no I can't link you to the studies.

/Not approved in the least.

Thumbs McFriday
Posted - 2010.07.29 19:20:00 - [542]
 

I would like to suggest a slightly different solution to this problem. It's essentially no different that the original posters however old vets with all 5's in learning skills would suffer no loss.

Wipe all the learning skills. Kill the points gained in each attribute from the learning skills. Kill that 10% learning modifier from Learning. Then change the skill points per hour formula.

Currently the skill points per hour are calculated as follows:
Skill Points = 60*Primary Attribute + 30*Secondary Attribute

Change it to the following:
Skill Points = 990 + 66*Primary + 33*Secondary

If you are a veteran and managed to max out your learning skills you would see no slow down to learning new skills. If you have any less you would be upgraded to veteran status.
The other advantage to this comes when you plug in cyber or play with your attributes in the restat screen. If you plug in a level 5 cyber you will not see your skill jump by 5.5. When you add and subtract a point from your attribute in the restat screen you will see your ending attribute gain and lose a single point. The original posters suggestion would have this effect.

-------------Cryptic Math Follows--------------
Sp = 60*P' + 30*S'
P' = (P+10)*1.1 PrimarySkill+10 points from learning + 10% for the Learning skill
S' = (S+10)*1.1
Sp = 60*(P+10)*1.1 + 30*(S+10)*1.1
Sp = 66*(P+10) + 33*(S+10)
Sp = 66*P + 660 + 33*S + 330
Sp = 990 + 66*P + 33*S

Brodit
Gallente
Dark Harlequin
Posted - 2010.08.04 20:36:00 - [543]
 

Ok I've read this thread and the CSM proposal trying to get a handle on why the learning skills are so despised and adored in equal measure. Also trying to discover what CCP wants to do with the attributes that they affect: do they want to speed up, or slow down training times. That is after all, what they do and all they do.

Firstly I want to say this.

The achilles heel of every rpg since D&D of the 70's is the stats, why anyone thinks Eve should be immune is beyond me. The fact is CCP's use of the atts is inspired, you may have 30 for perception, doesn't mean you can hit anything. BUT you can train up frigate 5 in a week.

Right-o onto my conclusions.

If new players are being turned off the game because they perceive they must train learning skills just to compete this has to be addressed. New players are the lifeblood of Eve, and when Dust launches it is going to bring in a host of new players coming from that platform into ours. As an old player and a supporter of learning skills I have advised all my mates to train up learning to basic 4 adv 3. I haven't had any negative feedback from them, but as they saw the training time drop for skills they did want, they were happy.

If they are removed, then the new baseline for all stats should be around 20-22. This will give some real meaning to the attributes as well as allowing for some serious specialising through the remap feature. I suspect that virtually everybody will at some point end up with charisma of 5, making us all butt ugly, anti-social and borderline sociopaths. (and i play this game to get away from reality)Embarassed

I hope you guys notice the lack of flamage between this post and my first.Very Happy

Brodit
Gallente
Dark Harlequin

Posted - 2010.08.04 20:52:00 - [544]
 

I had a look at the OP again and have changed my mind. If the compensation package is accepted I'd get 227m isk and 25m sps across all 9 chars. 3 mains maxed learning, 6 alts with an average of 1.8m sps.

Better yet, the alts would become mains by virtue of the increased atts they would get, lovely.

Where do I sign.
Cool

Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.04 22:57:00 - [545]
 

I support OP's proposal

Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.05 23:27:00 - [546]
 

helps if i remember to give the thumbs up

Generals4
Caldari

Posted - 2010.08.06 16:18:00 - [547]
 

Edited by: Generals4 on 06/08/2010 18:21:21
While i must agree the whole principle of learning skills to learn skills faster might seem redundant . It is a certain way to specialize as well. Not everyone values certain attributes the same way and might thus invest more skill points in certain attribute learning skills (my charisma learning are still quite low for example) . And it also adds a variation in skill priorities for people with short-run perspectives and long run perspectives.

Now a little idea i have thought of is maybe to make learning skills "special" skills . Instead of being forced to train them the normal way why not give a possible alternative . Like maybe mini-instant-learn skill books that would add skill points to a certain learning skill. Could be something purchasable through the LP store or rewarded from specific missions. So instead of using your training time to train the learning skills instead of "useful" skills you could be training those learning skills the other way while using the training queue for more valuable skills.
Now i admit this is may not be the best well-thought idea and there might be some issues i have overlooked .

Aginor Foiritan
Posted - 2010.08.06 18:59:00 - [548]
 

Not supported.

Soleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2010.08.06 22:23:00 - [549]
 

Learning skills are a waste of time, and it is probably the single biggest contributor to new players not sticking around long enough to learn the game. As soon as you tell them how much time they have to train in learning skills that don't allow them to get into ships faster, they become disinterested.

Remove the skills, add in equivalent attributes, and credit with faster training time.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.08.07 09:42:00 - [550]
 

Not supported. I dont see anything wrong with it. If it's not broken then leave it alone. Becouse we have a long list of things that are broken.

Rymunin
Posted - 2010.08.07 13:24:00 - [551]
 

Dont play with it... it works atm so if it aint broke dont try and fix it... instead why not apply resources to fixing other problems?

Zispur
Posted - 2010.08.07 21:24:00 - [552]
 

Great Solution: simple and should make everyone happy!

Why has it not been done yet?

Sepheir Sepheron
Caldari
1st Grave
Posted - 2010.08.07 23:59:00 - [553]
 

Learning skills were a completely ridiculous idea in the first place, but now that I'm used to my training speeds if they were to drop I would be VERY annoyed at CCP for wasting my good newbie-times training these annoying ****ty skills, unless the training was faster than it currently is.

Thresh Avery
Best Path Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.08.08 02:44:00 - [554]
 

Edited by: Thresh Avery on 08/08/2010 02:43:52
I actually quite like the learning skills, but i don't know why.

Regardless, they don't need to be in game and when a simple and effective solution like this one has been presented, there is no reason they shouldn't be removed.

All i would say is that instead of giving players a 10000% skill training time increase, CCP could use their new SP allocation method that they first showed off around 6 weeks ago due to the 20 hour server downtime. But of course you didn't know about that like 3 months ago. Smile

JinRogh
Posted - 2010.08.13 06:58:00 - [555]
 

Not supported if you cant handle learning skills EVE isn't the game for you. Go play Wow with all the other impatient children.If they have to mess with the learning skills give every new player lvl 3 in all learning skills like it said in the evelopedia page I wont be happy but it wont ruin the game either.

I wanna be a physicist without going to school!!
I wanna be a truck driver without getting my CDL!!

Xorv
Posted - 2010.08.13 07:41:00 - [556]
 

Originally by: JinRogh
Not supported if you cant handle learning skills EVE isn't the game for you. Go play Wow with all the other impatient children.If they have to mess with the learning skills give every new player lvl 3 in all learning skills like it said in the evelopedia page I wont be happy but it wont ruin the game either.

I wanna be a physicist without going to school!!
I wanna be a truck driver without getting my CDL!!


How many "Learning Classes" have you taken in real life? In EVE if you want to be a Physicist you can learn Science and Physics. We don't have trucks in EVE, but if you want to fly an Industrial ship you learn the appropriate piloting skills in Space Ship Command. So WTF are learning skills? They're a time sink nothing more, there's no real correlation with learning things in real life.

Before you post next time I recommend you take a basic reasoning class because like most of the pro learning skill posters your arguments are terrible and make no sense. But if you really think it would help ask at your local college/uni if you can take "the learning class" instead.

Elpyh
Amarr
Frozen Dawn Inc
Arctic Light
Posted - 2010.08.13 08:16:00 - [557]
 

Yes learning skills should be removed. They kill interest from majority of new players. I tried eve trial like 3 times before I actually started playing it for real. And out of the 3 times i always quit because I didnt want to waste my whole trial for learning skills. First time I tried the game was in 2003 or 2004 and I finally subscribed on 2009 just because I somehow was able to accept the fate of not being able to do a **** for a month or so.

So if you want new players, remove them. If you dont care for new players then just leave it like this.

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:05:00 - [558]
 

Originally by: Xorv

How many "Learning Classes" have you taken in real life?



Originally by: Xorv

They're a time sink nothing more, there's no real correlation with learning things in real life.



Originally by: Xorv

Before you post next time I recommend you take a basic reasoning class...


Irony is a *****.

KB

Xorv
Posted - 2010.08.14 01:10:00 - [559]
 

Edited by: Xorv on 14/08/2010 01:10:18
Originally by: KaarBaak

Irony is a *****.

KB



Really? Perhaps you'd care to explain how what I said is in any way ironic? Or are you just another dumb troll that I ought to ignore?

Uriel Winston
Posted - 2010.08.14 15:15:00 - [560]
 

/ Supported

you know when i was a newbie i wanted to train for some ships, a little catalyst later a thorax and since i wasn't in a corp no one told me about learning skills... so i had wasted all 1.6m sp bonus in training skills i could have got 1000% faster if i trained learning skills.

reimburse or just make the SP vanish. dont care but its completely stupid to train skills that will make you train other skills faster.

READING A BOOK DOESN'T MAKE YOU READ THE NEXT ONE FASTER

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.14 19:05:00 - [561]
 

Issue passed 5/4, after much spirited debate.

If CCP does decide to change learning skills, we hope they will do it in close consultation with the CSM.

Astroka
Posted - 2010.08.15 09:18:00 - [562]
 

Personally, I like the learning skills. Your suggestion is simply "remove them and make skills train faster."

I find that the learning skills are a bit of a tactical choice, and I agree with whoever said that learning skills are a part of character specialization. Sorry, I do not support this idea.

Civ Zomas
Gallente
Jazz Associates
Posted - 2010.08.15 17:56:00 - [563]
 

Learning skills should go away, but I propose a slightly different implementation. It's intended to be fair to players while changing as little of the existing system as possible. The resulting attributes are identical to what you can get in the present system with fully-trained learning skills, and you won't need to grant a free remap either. Implant effects remain unchanged.

Essentially, the idea is to remove all the learning skills, boost the base attributes and KEEP the 1.1x multiplier effect (but NOT as a skill.) Here it is in detail:

1) Record the number of skill points each character has trained in the Learning category. Also record the cost of those skill books.

2) Remove the Learning (2% per level) skill.

2.1) Instead, the 1.1x multiplier effect is retained for ALL characters as though they have the skill at level 5.

3) Characters that have NEVER remapped simply have +10 added to each base attribute.

4) Characters that HAVE remapped attributes have their base attributes set to old base + respective skills (not including the 1.1x multiplier), AND THEN:

4.1) Characters who still do not have the full complement of 89 base attribute points have the balance added to their highest attributes, in accordance with the (new) remap limits:

While (you have points to add)
{
Add +1 to the highest base attribute below 25
}

5) Remove the remaining learning skills.

6) Refund skill points and isk to characters based on <1>.

Advantages:
* No change to ultimate attribute levels
* No change to implant effects.
* No change to net training speed
* Characters' investment in learning skills is rewarded proportionally.
* No free remap needed.

Disadvantages:
* Remapping feature must be modified to accommodate the new range of base attributes.
* New code may be needed to make the 1.1x attribute multiplier universal.
* Some changes needed to character creation and NPE

Raylan Jackson
Posted - 2010.08.15 21:28:00 - [564]
 

Love this idea.

Andromeda Risen
Posted - 2010.08.16 05:25:00 - [565]
 

Remove the learning skills.
They are a wast of time for new players.
I have 3 accounts all 5/5 (at least 3 years old each)

Get rid of them, It's a ridiculous waste of time for a new player and adds nothing to the game.

Allianc
Amarr
Novatech Armada
Mass - Effect
Posted - 2010.08.16 07:42:00 - [566]
 

Not supported.

EVE is about our choices in the emergent sand box of New Eden. Choosing whether or not to train learning skills is a part of the essence of EVE.
The need to choose between long term gain and short term gratification is what separates EVE players from the rest.

taking away learning skills is to a degree like taking away all the gunnery or spaceship command skills. Those skills also stand in the way of new players "delay[ing] gratification at a critical point in their introduction to the game". Why not just remove those and make ISK the only barrier to piloting every ship in the game perfectly?

Because then it wouldn't be EVE, and we wouldnt be playing it.

Weddel
Shiva
Posted - 2010.08.16 08:46:00 - [567]
 

+1

Dirk Smacker
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2010.08.16 11:05:00 - [568]
 

Edited by: Dirk Smacker on 16/08/2010 11:05:38
Not supported.

Relatively new player who thinks this idea sucks. Why take the choice away?

I hope this doesn't make it to the list of "demands" like that crap PI omnibus.

Bhattran
Posted - 2010.08.16 12:19:00 - [569]
 

Originally by: Xorv
Originally by: JinRogh
Not supported if you cant handle learning skills EVE isn't the game for you. Go play Wow with all the other impatient children.If they have to mess with the learning skills give every new player lvl 3 in all learning skills like it said in the evelopedia page I wont be happy but it wont ruin the game either.

I wanna be a physicist without going to school!!
I wanna be a truck driver without getting my CDL!!


How many "Learning Classes" have you taken in real life? In EVE if you want to be a Physicist you can learn Science and Physics. We don't have trucks in EVE, but if you want to fly an Industrial ship you learn the appropriate piloting skills in Space Ship Command. So WTF are learning skills? They're a time sink nothing more, there's no real correlation with learning things in real life.

Before you post next time I recommend you take a basic reasoning class because like most of the pro learning skill posters your arguments are terrible and make no sense. But if you really think it would help ask at your local college/uni if you can take "the learning class" instead.


They are effectively +10 implants you never lose if you choose to buy the skill books and train them, meaning you can get that + to attributes with significantly less cost, isk wise, than you could buying +5's and never have to 'worry' about replacing them if you get podded.

I support this idea as I'd rather not spend time training them to get the effect when we can simply give that effect to everyone, leveling the playing field, allowing new players to benefit from them without having to rack up the millions for the advanced SOCT or deal with issues of should I train them/I can't play for a month BS. For those that put the time+isk into learning skills letting them reap the 'benefit' of accelerated SP training is also great. It would be nice if that mental exercise, balancing training learning with doing what is fun, didn't have to go as it is VERY EVE IMO but I like the OP's solution if learning skills are to go.

Genghis Prime
Posted - 2010.08.17 21:51:00 - [570]
 



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